Risen Motherhood: Prioritizing Marriage: Emily Jensen & Laura Wifler

I want someone to be like, what's going on with you today?

Are you okay? You must have a lot on your mind. And to really dig in, right, and know that I'm not perfect, I have issues. You want someone to have that compassion.

And my husband also has hurts in his life. He also has, you know, things that are on his mind that are weighing on him. And so recognizing that, right, like, what's going on with you? Like, are you okay?

Are you gonna come alongside you in this? And knowing that, you know, there's a person on the other side who might be hurting, who might also be caring a lot. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.

I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. So I would say the hardest years of our marriage were when?

Please don't say today or this year. When our kids were little. It was so hard. I felt alone. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing.

I felt like you were building your career, and I was lost. I think that can be pretty typical, don't you? Oh, I think, yeah.

I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I think it just is. You know, when you're in that season of life, and we've got two moms in here with, what, nine kids between them? Or eight? Eight. Eight. Uh-oh. We have to count real quick. I hope I'm not a prophet. Oh, please don't.

Please. Then we've got two moms in here with eight kids between them. And they're sister-in-laws.

I mean, it's pretty cool. We've got Emily Jensen and Laura Whiffler, the creators of Risen Motherhood. And we've had a day with you guys. Welcome back for day two. Awesome. Thank you for having us.

Yeah, thanks. Let's talk, I mean, in your book, which really I love is because you apply the gospel. And like I said yesterday, not just a little bit, every page is full of the gospel. And it's the name of your podcast as well, isn't it? Risen Motherhood. We were really creative with the book title. I like it.

There you go. You just keep that brand going. But, I mean, one of the things you mentioned, and you go through all these very practical things and the gospel comes in. And I know that's why moms love what you do. But you have a chapter on marriage. And I don't know if we'll spend the whole day talking about it, but I think we could.

Because you're in that season. So talk about marriage and having a great, healthy, God-purpose-centered marriage in the middle of Risen Motherhood. And let me add, too, both of you have children with disabilities. And so your kids are getting older, but you're continually putting your time and energy with all of your kids. But especially you have some more energy that you're putting into the kids that have special needs. And I'm guessing that that can take a toll on your marriage as well. Is that true?

Yes, absolutely. I think it's just been interesting over the years because you do go through phases in marriage. Like what you're saying when kids are really, really little and all you are doing is just surviving day to day and coordinating to the next outing. And I think for us, so we've been married 14 years and our youngest is in first grade now, so we're a little bit out of that stage. We have kind of been rebuilding now in our marriage. Not that anything was like torn down, but it's like you're investing in a different way that I think we didn't always have time to do in the little years. Yeah, you're looking at each other like, oh, I remember you.

Yeah. And oh, the kids really will go to college someday. They really will move on. I think when they're really little, you just, you don't believe it.

It seems impossible that they'll ever be that old. And now we're going, oh, actually we can imagine the amount of years we'll be and then it's us. And are we investing in our friendship? Are we partnering on things together? And I think something that's really helped us through the years is just trying to stay on the same page in the big picture. Because my husband and I have really different personalities. We have really different ways of doing things. You know, our method to getting to the same end is usually different. But the point is that we're usually, we're trying to get to the same end. And so trying to find ways that we can be unified in the big picture and stay on the same page I think has been really important for us. Let me ask you, Emily, you're married to Laura's brother.

Yes. And so has there ever been like this awkwardness of, let me vent to you, not just about my husband, but about your brother? Ooh, I want to know this answer. Laura has been so good about being normal and just like laid back, like being open about it. Because I think I'm usually the one of the two of us that's like, oh, I want to make sure we have clean boundaries here and that you don't feel like you have to hear about this. But she pushes me and is like, I want to hear, I want to know what's going on in your marriage. And so I definitely feel like we're able somehow, by God's grace, to keep all of those things separate.

And yeah, Laura is someone who I can talk to about marriage. Now definitely there's some topics that I'm not going to get into details about. I know, it's weird. I've had it. Find another friend for that. It's happened a few times and I'm like, hmm.

It's like group settings. But yeah, but the normal marriage questions and woes we can talk about. Well, I'm so for you. And I think that that is so key as friends and as family members that love one another, that we be for one another and believe the best in each other. And so I want her to have room and freedom to just share the real realities of what's going on and also know that I'm going to believe that they're both, like you said, pursuing the same goal and their end goal is different.

And just to be a friend and cheerleader, I think we all need that. And that's a huge thing, I think, in marriage, too, is that we believe the best in our spouses. And I know that for me, my husband and I are also opposites, very different from one another. It seems to happen a lot in marriage. I know. And yet I had to really trust that he wants the same thing as me. And you're going to say something, but I can feel it.

Well, I was going to say when you said you want to see the best in each other. Yeah. Generally, most women don't do that. They see the negative in their husband. They don't see the good.

How have you done that? Maybe their husbands aren't as bad as the one you are married to. Oh, no, no, no.

You're awesome. We have normal marriages. I think it's typical, though, especially if you don't have a friend that's on the same page spiritually. You've been around women that there is just a husband bashing that goes on. Yes, absolutely.

And so you're saying you're believing the best and seeing the best. How did you start doing that? I've been fairly open about my husband for a long time, worked really long hours. Would just not be at home very often because he was doing great at work and was just really committed to his job. And we definitely did not see eye to eye on that. And my children were young and at home.

My daughter was getting diagnosed with disabilities, surgeries. We were moving. There were so many things going on. And I felt like he wasn't as present as I had hoped for him to be. And I think one of the things that kept me through a lot of it was that his words were that, I want to be available. I want to be here. I love you.

I care about you guys. But sometimes I felt like maybe the actions didn't add up, just the way I am in my own life, right? Like I say one thing and then I do another thing. But I had to believe that his heart was there and that what he said, I felt like at times, if perhaps I couldn't trust him, I could trust God with our lives. And so I could believe the best because I believe that his heart was still soft towards wanting to be available to our family. And there were times where I think in that situation, we needed more tools, more people around us, other voices helping us both to know how to get a different family lifestyle that we said we wanted, but it felt very hard to achieve in the moment. And so believing the best doesn't say, I don't see any of these problems or like, oh, you can do nothing wrong. It doesn't mean anything like that, but it does mean to say like, okay, if he's saying that he wants this and I want this too, like I'm going to believe that we both want to pursue this, even though it feels really bumpy right now, even though it feels really hard.

And then we want to bring in voices and support structures and accountability or whatever those things are in order to say, okay, we're going to pursue what we both say we want. And also like it can happen in little things I think a lot of times with couples where one person just forgets to take out the trash. And believing the best means, okay, you actually forgot.

Not that you just like only wanted to watch the football game or whatever. Or like how do you forget every single week? I know, questions, many questions.

What I like that you're getting at too is it's almost developing just compassion for your spouse too, and like who they are and what they're walking through. Because with our own issues, right, when I forget to do something, I want someone to be like, what's going on with you today? Are you okay? You must have a lot on your mind. And to really dig in, right, and know that I'm not perfect. I have issues. You want someone to have that compassion. And it's helped me to know too, like my husband also has hurts in his life. He also has, you know, things that are on his mind that are weighing on him. And so recognizing that, right, it's not just, well, you didn't meet my needs and you're not doing what I want, but like what's going on with you? Like are you okay? How can I come alongside you in this? And knowing that, you know, there's a person on the other side who might be hurting, who might also be caring a lot.

And having that kind of response to them that I would want someone to have to me, I think has been really helpful in having that like long-suffering attitude. The grace of the gospel. I mean, I'm sitting over here as the guy.

I'm the only guy here, you know, as the husband representative. And I'm thinking, man, you talk about grace. You two just spoke.

Really grace. And part of me is like, do you live that? Because there's moments, right, where you said, you know, when he was working.

We often invite our husbands in to see what they think. But I know we get frustrated with one another. And it doesn't always come out that way.

Maybe an hour or two later you come back and go, right? I mean, there's sometimes, especially when you're a kid. And you've got children that have extra needs. I mean, children are hard enough as it is. And then add that on top of it. And then you've got a husband who's not showing up. That's hard.

As you said that, too, I was recalling. Dave has a really rough family past. Both his parents were alcoholics.

His dad was abusive. They divorced. He had a little brother that died.

And we were on a trip. And Dave has very little recollection. His brother died when he was seven. Were your parents divorced at seven, too, when you were seven? Yeah, straight after the divorce.

All the same. And so we got on the phone with his sister, who's ten years older, who remembers everything because of her age. She was a teenager at the time. And we got on the phone and she started saying, like, oh, you know, our dad was so abusive. He beat up, you know, Dave one time. And he was drinking all the time.

Both parents would pass out. And I remember listening, just tears coming down my cheeks, thinking, I had no idea how hard. I didn't even remember.

How hard. And then I told our boys, and when you know the past, you give way more grace. And honestly, our spouses and... You felt bad all those times you were putting me down, didn't you? I totally did. And the boys were like, Dad, we should have given you more grace.

You had no upbringing in terms of a healthy family. And I think we just need to give ourselves a little more grace because of the gospel. How can we do that? Because of what Jesus has done. He does that for us all the time. I think that's really wise.

And we need Jesus every day to get us to do that every day. Yeah. Yeah, so in both of you, you've said enough where I go, wow, you have good marriages. In the middle of this crazy life you're living, at a season in your life where it would be really hard, get real practical. What do you do? Do you guys date? Do you talk at night? We talk. It's so funny, bring up date night, because Emily and I have a thing about feeling like, I don't know if I'm allowed to share this, but feeling like maybe date nights are so good and so helpful.

But also there are seasons in life where date nights aren't possible. Because we have children with disabilities. At the restaurant, yeah. Good clarification. Because we have children with disabilities.

Can you leave them? We can. Clearly we're here. But it can be hard. It's much more difficult to secure childcare and things like that. And especially when they were younger, we needed to be available for bedtime and things like that. And so while I think dates are so valuable, I think there's a lot of pressure on young married couples who have little children at home to figure out a way, even if it's let's watch TV and eat ramen on the couch, but it's just us and it's intentional. But we're tired.

And that's a very real thing to be very, very exhausted because your kid's not sleeping. And so I think that the Lord is kind to sustain us, no matter our season, and that we have to trust that marriage is not dependent upon a special kind of set aside night, but that God can sustain a marriage through so much more than that in heavy, big seasons where maybe we don't have capacity to even say, Hey, every Tuesday night, we're going to get on the couch, we're going to have ice cream. And I only say that to relieve some pressure. That has just relieved so much pressure.

We've talked to a lot of military families who one of the spouses deployed, like we can't have date nights. And so can we not make it? Right, right.

Is it good? Absolutely. So please no one hear that, that like, if you can, if you can do that, go for it.

That's going to be incredible, but also you can have a very great marriage. And the things that happen on a typical date night, whether it's at a restaurant or whatever, you still do somehow. Communication, connection, intimacy, you name it. I'm guessing you still do that even in a different way. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's kind of like quiet time where you have to be able to think outside of the box of if I can't be with God from 6.15 AM to 6.25 AM with my coffee, with my Bible, can I not meet with God? And it's like, you absolutely can.

You can immerse yourself in the Lord all day, every day. You have to just be a little bit more creative and think more openly. And I think for us, that's kind of what we've done in each season is just be creative about what it means to stay connected in that season. So for us right now, like I said, we have school-aged children, so they're gone during the day. So guess when my husband and I go do stuff together and hang out?

While they're at school, we rarely go on an evening date or a morning date. But you know, if he's free around lunch and I'm free around lunch, I'll say, hey, can we have lunch together? And we'll do that maybe a couple of times a week or in the evenings. A lot of times a week.

You're really impressed right now, right? Laura's a little jealous right now. A couple times a week. I know, we have a lot of flexibility, but I think it's like looking at your own situation and saying, what does it look like for us to connect? And I think even just bedtime, that's been something for us really early on. You mentioned we have five kids, like people tease us for this, but bedtime was like a strict thing in our house. Like you are downstairs in your room at a certain time and like our older kids can stay up and read.

But then from that point on, you know, 730 on, it's just my husband and I. And like we don't always have deep conversations, but we have that time together pretty much every night. And it's quiet.

Quieter. Yeah, it's going to go away when our kids become teenagers. And then, you know, it will go away someday and then we'll have to get creative again. But for us, I would say that is what got us through the little years was our kids went to bed early every single night and we were just, we just laid on the bed and just died. But we were together. We were together. As an alternate perspective, as someone who I had shared, my husband worked really long hours, so we would not see each other very often. And still, like he works away during the day. So that's probably not practical for us to see one another during the daytime.

At least twice a week, come on. I know, I've got to work on something here. But that being said, I think one of the things that helped us was that we took trips together. And so we found that for him, I always would joke that I had to get him out of state in order for work to leave him alone.

And I know there will be women here that will resonate with that statement. And so I would plan us a little weekend away or we would take a week away and do something a little bit longer. But that was something that we didn't bring our children on. And it sort of carried us a lot longer through things if we could say, okay, we're going to plan a vacation, we're going to go on a trip. And that could be, I mean, you could go camping, you could go to Paris, whatever, it doesn't matter. But that for us was a big way that we connected because we honestly didn't see each other very much during the week.

And it was a little bit of practical, you know, hey, I'm going here, you're going there. And that was for a season. And there were hard years. I mean, when my daughter was diagnosed with disabilities and we were working through a lot of just big life changes, please don't want to hear that our marriage is good all the time.

Especially that season, things were really, really hard. But we both promised that we would make good on the covenant that we made before the Lord. And so it wasn't an option for us to explore anything else because we both knew that we wanted to make this work. And this is assuming a healthy marriage, you know, that has its normal struggles and ups and downs, there's no abuse, there's nothing like that.

So there's assumptions that I'm putting in here that I hope anyone hears that those caveats are there and said, but this is where we kind of, Emily and I keep saying we want the same thing. Like we know that our husbands want to honor God. They want to be faithful to God. And they're going to do it in a different way than what we think is best. You know, their quiet times are going to look different than what I would suggest.

Their time in men's ministry is going to look different than what I think is the right way to do it. And yet we have to give them freedom to be able to figure that out on their own, just like we have freedom to figure that out as wives. And so there's a lot more we could say, but I think that it's really just important to recognize your season of life and talk with your husband.

Okay, what is right? Like how often should we have one-on-one time together? How often should we try to pursue a date night?

Should we take a yearly trip instead? And so having that open communication when you're both not hot-headed, right? You're not coming in mad and saying, I haven't seen you in a month, what the world? But instead you're saying, okay, I prayed about this. I feel like I'm in a good state right now or I'm walking in grace.

And have that communication then with your husband and like decide then and there, this is what we would like life to be like. And knowing that it's probably not going to measure quite up to that, but that's something you want to pursue. And I think that that can be really helpful of what's practical, what's realistic, and then what do we want that fits in there?

I think that's really good. And I'm guessing, I'm imagining you're having Emily praying for you as you're having hard conversations or vice versa. And I'm guessing too, because you talk to so many women and this is kind of your job, you probably contact and talk to a lot of women that don't have husbands that are on the same page spiritually. How do you encourage them?

Yeah. I mean, that's really challenging. And what we try to do all the time is push moms toward their local church and their local community because you really, I think if you're in a situation like that, you really need people in your real life who you see on a regular basis who can be praying for you and who can speak into your specific situation because you need someone who knows your husband, your challenges, who can help give you wisdom.

It's really, really difficult. I mean, I cannot imagine how hard it would be to feel like, no, my husband and I aren't on the same team. But we know that she can trust the Lord and she can rest her identity in Him and that He is doing things in and through her life for His glory, for her good. There are scriptural promises that she can absolutely believe and rest in even if her husband isn't who she hopes that he would be. And I think too about the ministry of prayer that she has for her husband and that regardless of where he's at spiritually, she may be the one person in his life who's going before the Lord on his behalf and think about what a powerful thing that is and what a gift you're giving and honoring him in that way. He may not know that or appreciate that, but that's unseen work that the Lord sees that He is rewarding and no one else may care about in your life.

But that's important work. I would love for you to speak to the dad, the husband, because for years, probably decades, I didn't understand how hard it was for a mom. I think I do now, maybe, but I didn't. I mean, I wouldn't come home and judge you, but I was like, you know, my life is really hard. I'm leading this, you know, and I come in the door and she is exhausted and I joke one time a baby came flying through the air as I stepped into the family room like, you know, you got to help me here. I think we're in a different era too. I feel like men are much more helpful today. Yeah, and our sons, they're unbelievable.

I'm like, Ann's looking at me like, why didn't you do that? But I think a lot of times men, we don't get it. So I was thinking, you guys are right there and this is your world. Speak to the guy.

Tell him this is what it is like for your wife. Well, one thing I was going to say I've noticed throughout the years is how overstimulating it is. I mean, even just the very physicality of it. I mean, it's like almost imagine you're in a room all day and there's like loud music blaring and there's lights flashing and there's little things coming out of the wall punching your body and, you know, and you can't leave except for when you go to the bathroom and then like the room follows you. So there is a very real component of it that is, it's exhausting because it's so overstimulating.

Sounds good. And so there's like just know that imagine that and then add anything else you want to onto the room. Then it eats smells. Oh, smells. That's right. And someone's throwing food at you. This could be a Disney ride. You haven't had a chance to really eat because you're just snacking off to other people's place.

For sure. You're like mildly hungry but also like totally sick. You can sleep the night before eating all this weird food. Yeah, you're on like three hours of sleep. Maybe somebody's been sick. And there's a timer counting down to when somebody's, your husband's going to open that door and let you out of that room.

And then he comes out home two hours late. This is a risen motherhood ride at Universal. Get on the mom ride. No one wants to be on it.

No one. We should say it. Motherhood is a blessing.

Let's back up. No, it's funny. The other day I actually heard this was on some social media, but a dad was saying, I thought this was like really cool. He was saying, I actually have the privilege to go work because my wife gets to be a stay-at-home mom and that she serves me in that way. And it was just interesting because I think we say that a lot as women, like we get to serve our husbands when they're at work, especially if that mom is a stay-at-home mom. But to hear a dad say, I have the privilege of working outside the home because my wife is serving me in the home.

I thought that, I don't know. It's like saying the same thing, but hearing it from a guy recognize the privilege that it is because sometimes it can feel like that's his right. Well, he gets to do that because he's head of the household. And it can kind of feel, especially I'm probably someone who's maybe a little bit more ambitious and probably has to use my hands and my mind all day and I really enjoy that. And I think that that was something that was hard for me was it felt like, well, okay, yep, I have to, that's his right. And so now I have to be home in order to support him in that, but instead for him to hear and recognize what a privilege it is.

And so just asking, as we speak to dads, I think recognizing the privilege it is that you get to go off to work every day and that you come home and whatever state your home is in, might be a total disaster. And depending on your wife, it might be neat as a pen, but to just be able to tell her that, I'm so glad that I'm able to go off to work and come home and I wanna help you and I wanna engage in this. But to be able to say that to her, I think that affirmation piece, that piece that says, I see your work, because I remember I would go through my list with my husband and be like, and I did this and then I took the trash out, and then I mowed the lawn. I mean, I was doing it all and I needed to hear, I needed someone to say, I see the work you're doing. And we know that God sees all the work and that's what we say at Risen Motherhood all the time.

It's like, nobody may ever see your work, but Jesus sees. But sometimes you just need another human being that you love and care for to recognize it. And so that's what I would say to any dad who's listening, it's like, go home. And whether your wife is working outside the home and that she's coming home and feeding those kids dinner and getting them off to practices, or she's at home all day, tell her you love her, tell her all the reasons why, tell her why she's incredible. And that I think will do so much for her as she goes into the next day and the week beyond and put it on your phone, make a little reminder and do it once a week, every day. And if you're hearing this and you have a friend that you know her husband will not do that, you do it for her.

So good. We just need to remind each other as sisters, I see everything you're doing and I know it's hard way to go. And I gotta add this, dude, if you're the guy saying, I can't do that, do it.

Seriously. We'll hear more encouragement from Dave about how a husband can practically honor his wife in just a second. But first I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Emily Jensen and Laura Whiffler on Family Life Today. You know, I love how straightforward and simple it can be to bring life into a specific context by being intentional to encourage.

And I know today's conversation gave you some good tracks to run on when it comes to the practicalities of doing that. If you want to hear more from Emily and Laura, they've written a book called Risen Motherhood, Gospel Hope for Everyday Moments. You can find some practical ways to see connection between your faith and everyday challenges that you go through as a mom. And you can get your copy right now by going online to familylifetoday.com. And you know, while you're at familylifetoday.com, you'll discover that there's a little button at the top of the page that says donate now. And that gives you the opportunity to partner with us here at Family Life. And the really cool thing is that all month long in the month of May, every gift that you give will be matched dollar for dollar up to $500,000. So we really encourage you to become a monthly partner with us. Join us in the ministry of reaching families and marriages all over the world. You can do that by going online to familylifetoday.com, or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. All right, here's Dave Wilson with some encouragement about how a husband can practically honor his wife. If you have a moment where you can get quiet, say, honey, tell me about your day.

Yes. Hear about her day. She's had a hard day probably. And I know you have too, but she's had a hard day. She would feel honored to be able to go, well, I did this and I changed 18 diapers and I picked up.

And I mowed the grass. And be impressed, you know. Yes, you're amazing. Yeah, exactly.

Genuinely impressed, yeah. Now coming up tomorrow, be sure to join us as Emily and Laura talk about the complexities of what it's like to be a mother of children with disabilities and how they share their faith and find strength in supportive communities. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David and Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.