How Well Do You Really Know God? Jen Wilkin & J.T. English

The doctrine of the church connects us to one another. It helps us understand that we're not alone, but not only we're not alone, but we actually are made to serve God and one another. And that's what we're all wanting is a bigger vision. We want something that transcends.

People don't always realize that's what they're missing. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com.

This is Family Life Today. Okay, so if you could guess at a percentage of the number, a percentage of people in church, evangelical churches, church-going people, they go regularly, which is sad that that's probably twice a month now or less. But they're a regular church-goer. What percentage, we say, don't know theology, don't know their Bible well, would be somewhat illiterate? Give me a number. 87%. 87. Did you just pick that out of nowhere?

Yep, just picked it out of nowhere. You think it's that high? That's like 9 out of 10. When I'm talking about nominal Christian churches, I'm talking about... Not our church. Not our church, of course.

That's probably way too high of a percentage. Well, let's find out. We've got a couple experts who are back with us, Jen Wilkin, JT English. Some cool theologians with us today. They're cool. They've got their spark notes. They're all ready to go. That's never going to die. If you don't know what happened yesterday, go listen to yesterday because we got into that.

No, it's fine. Just keep rolling. But Jen and JT have written a book together called You Are a Theologian, and the subtitle is An Invitation to Know and Love God Well. So what would you say is the percentage? Maybe you know an actual number or take a guess. I don't know an actual number, but I do know that I've been talking about Bible literacy now for at least 10 years and then teaching on it prior to that, even when I wasn't talking about it publicly, and I find that it is everywhere and it is at every level. One of the most common pieces of feedback that we will get from knowing faith listeners is I've been in church my whole life and no one has taught me this. No one has told me these things.

And it's pervasive. And one of the things that I'll do when I talk about Bible literacy is give a little pop quiz over just factual information in the Bible. You want to do it? 20 questions. Not 20!

I've been taking this test five or six times and I do worse each time. It's 20 questions. It's not like explain atonement theory.

I mean, it's like. Can you give us like three? So, which of Jesus' miracles is recorded in all four gospels? Water to wine. Feeding of the 5,000.

Oh, of course. Which disciple found a coin in the mouth of a fish? Look at that! We are biblically illiterate! But this is a really important sensation is Peter. It's an important, you know, think about the way you just felt in your stomach and if people are listening.

And we went to seminary. Yeah, that sinking feeling of, oh no, right? And that is the way that everyone in the pews is feeling. And they think that they cannot tell anyone because if they're found out, then they're not actually a Christian. Not only that, but what ends up happening is people think, gosh, am I just really bad at this?

Like, is the Holy Spirit not alive in me? You know, why do other people seem to get this and I don't? And the dirty little secret is that virtually none of us knows what we should at this point. And virtually none of us could articulate our basic theological positions the way that we should if we want to be those who are going to fulfill the Great Commission. And if we would say it out loud and then lock arms and begin moving forward, then I think we can turn this thing around.

I still have enough of an optimist in me because I think that the Lord will do the work. So that's, you know, that's what we're hoping. And, you know, people will say, well, where would I do this? You know, it's everybody has a living room or know someone with a living room. And that's where these conversations can begin. It's good to have a trusted guide, someone who can lead those discussions, someone who has a little more light maybe than the other people in the group. And it's good to know where to go for follow up information if you hit a question that nobody can kind of find a good answer to.

But I think the most important thing that we need to do is just admit, yeah, I don't know these things the way that I want to and the way that I wish that I did. And then we want you to hear us say, JT, I very much want you to hear us say, you can do it. JT, have you been in a group leading where you're going through some of these biblical principles, way of life, just teaching scripture in small groups where light bulbs were going off? Oh, my gosh, it's my favorite thing.

Really? By far, I mean, there's so much that I enjoy about preaching and teaching, but in one of my previous roles, and I still do this at our church, we call it the Storyline Institute. And it's this, it's the basics of the faith. I think one thing that Jen and I've realized over time is, again, when we've mentioned this, everybody's being discipled. They have ideas about God, they have thoughts about the world. But when it comes to the basics of the faith, evangelicalism has sometimes put the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllable. Like, we're pressing on things that, not that they're unimportant, but we're making secondary issues primary, and we're making primary issues secondary or perhaps never getting to them.

And so Jen just mentioned this, our favorite piece of feedback. This happened to me just this past week at my church. I was teaching on Trinitarianism.

How many churches are teaching on the Trinity? From the pulpit to 2,000 people. And I had 20, I mean, there's one 86-year-old who came up to me, said, I have been in church my whole life. I've never, ever thought about God like that. And in some sense, there's a sense of, they're so glad that you did it, but there's also a little frustration sometimes on their behalf. Like, why haven't I?

Why hasn't anybody told me this before? And so it's those moments that make this job really worth doing because it changes Trinitarianism or the doctrine of the atonement far from being something that's distant from them. It's actually something that's immediately important to them.

Intensely practical. We talked about God in the book, and Trinitarianism is God the Father is the one who initiates salvation or all things. God the Son is the one who accomplishes. And God the Holy Spirit is the one who applies all things, which means salvation from beginning to end.

Because God is who he says he is, is his. It means it's grace, and it's yours to receive freely and fully by faith in Jesus. And so Trinitarianism isn't something for the elite, systematic theologian. It's something for every single Christian, which is what Jesus says in the Great Commission as well. Go, therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in this triune name, the name of the Father, the Son, the Spirit, because God is the beginning and the end of the Christian life.

Well, you're going to have to walk us through some of the basics because I think there's a hunger for the average churchgoing person. I remember one time when Anne's sister was still alive, I came driving into their driveway, her parents' home, and there were two gentlemen in the living room that barbed her sister. They had knocked on the door, they were Jehovah Witnesses, and they were witnessing, and Barb said, I don't know how to answer your things, but my brother-in-law can. Get in here. And it was like a half hour, they sat there waiting, and I walk in the back door, and Barb goes, I got them in the front door.

I go, you got what? But she felt like, I don't know enough to be able to have a conversation with these men. And I could tell she felt embarrassed about that, like, I should. And I think every Christian feels like, I want to know. It isn't like I don't want to.

I don't know where to go to get the information. I mean, you've created a resource that, like, we'll put it right in your hands. And it's not a seminary-level systematic theology, but it is a simple systematic theology. So start somewhere.

Where would we start? You can't do it all, but give us a sort of an overview of basic theology that we should know. Well, you always start with asking the question, who is God? John Calvin famously said, the knowledge of God and knowledge of self always go hand in hand. There is no true knowledge of self apart from the knowledge of God. And if you think about how our culture today is so concerned about self-knowledge, self-defined self-knowledge, right? So right out of the gate, you've made a very countercultural statement about what Christian theology is teaching us. So we start by beholding God for who He is, and then we're able to understand who we are as image bearers in relation to that. So the starting point is always God.

And, you know, just a very practical example of how theology is intensely practical. When you learn about who God is, you learn things like, He holds all knowledge. He knows every single thing, which means He knows every single thing about you, Ann.

He knows every single thing about you, Dave. So I have a family member who wrestled for years with assurance of salvation. He was baptized five times. Really?

Five times. Because he just kept thinking, I don't think it really, really happened. Well, I look on him with a great deal of compassion. But when you understand that God knows all things, it means that you can't commit a sin at some point that he didn't see coming that will change his steadfast love toward you. It also, if you understand him as unchanging, then you know that once he has set his covenant love on you, he will not change that thing that he has done. And so the doctrine of God is intensely practical in that moment. It has a very real bearing on our lives. Anyone who's ever wrestled with assurance of salvation, because we don't start with the doctrine of God sometimes, then they're turned inward looking at themselves and wondering, am I enough?

Well, the answer is no, of course not. None of us are enough. But we know when we understand who God is and who we are in relation to him, that when he sets his love on us, that Christ's sacrifice is enough.

And it's never changing. I think that if you're listening and you have kids in your home still, these would be great questions to ask at the dinner table. One night you could ask that question to your kids.

Who is God? JT, what do you think your kids would say? Oh, his kids would nail it. And they're young. Yeah, they're young. So I got eight and six and we've been using a digital resource.

It's called the New City Catechism that asks questions that have been a really helpful resource for our family. So we'll sit down and our family discipleship time does not look like, you know, the lights perfectly shining down on us and all the kids like sometimes just mass chaos. We're throwing each other through.

It's just like it's just crazy. People are crying, usually me. But every now and then we'll get through one of the questions. And for example, one of them is what is our the first one is, what is our greatest hope in life and death? And my little girl, Bailey, six, I'm not sure she understands all the words perfectly, but the answer is, is that we are not our own but belong to God. OK, come on. Everybody's just like listening, like, well, that's depressing.

I wouldn't even know how to answer that. One of the funny things is that she gets it a little bit wrong, but also true. She says that we are not alone but belong to God. And I'm just like, I'm never correcting it. Nobody ever correct it.

Nobody ever correct her. So yeah, we try to do that. And that's really the way the book is formed.

It's around questions, right? That's the way the church has always taught each other to do theology through the church used to call them catechisms or teachings. And so you ask the question, then you provide the answer. So the first questions we asked her, who is God and what is he like?

Another question we asked, and of course, Jen already highlighted, who are we? The doctrine of image bearing. How do we know?

Like, how do we know these things? And so we have the whole chapter on the doctrine of the Bible. What does the Bible say about itself? 2 Timothy 3.16, it's God's inspired. It's his breath.

It's the very voice, the speech of God to us in the past and also in the present that the Holy Spirit illuminates his word and makes it authoritative and inerrant and sufficient for life and godliness. Another big one is what has gone wrong in the world? Here's the thing. Everybody has to answer that question because nobody's living in a perfect world. We all experience sickness and brokenness and death and fractured relationships, challenging marriages. I mean, so the question of what's gone wrong in the world, Christians have a very distinct answer to that. Lots of people think that what's gone wrong in the world is something external, like there's actually an external force that's wrong.

And there's some truth to that in terms of there are spiritual forces of darkness at play in the world. But the Bible begins with what's gone wrong in the world with us, an internal problem, the doctrine of sin and depravity and separation from God. And so what does that mean for the Christian life?

Well, it means we need an external hope. And that's then answering the question, what is God doing in the world? How is he making things right? And then we talk about that with the doctrine of Christ and atonement, what he accomplished for us in salvation, and also how he gives us his spirit for life and godliness and to indwell us as his people forever. So these are basic questions that everybody is asking and answering.

The Bible provides answers. Now, how have you two done teaching in your home? I'm sure it's different, but you've done it.

Yeah. You know, and a lot of families are like, what would that look like? Would it be a dinner table discussion? Would it be a Sunday night? Would it be as I walk along the way? Jen has a better answer than this than I do, so I'm going first.

Go ahead. I mean, I've already described one of those situations where we just try to have intentional times throughout the day. It doesn't happen every day.

Sometimes there's days where you're sick or you're tired or you get home from practice late. So don't let the picture of perfection eliminate your desire for progress. So we just try to take next steps, and if there's a bad week, just pick it up the next week. And we are always gathered around some kind of book. Like I said, the New City Catechism has been really helpful for us.

But I will also just encourage parents, theology's always happening, always. So a couple weeks ago, my 94-year-old grandfather died. He's one of my heroes. Married for 72 years. His widow, my grandmother, call her Nama.

They live in Lincoln, Nebraska. And when I was holding my little girl, Bailey, at the graveside, the graveside, there was always only family. And my grandmother tapped the casket. I don't think she knows that I heard this. And she said, well done, Bob. You did so good.

And Bailey and I heard it. And she kind of looks at me and she's like, what is he, what does she mean by that? That's theology right there. Theology's happening right there in that life moment.

This isn't just in classrooms with textbooks open. It's I now have an opportunity to explain to my little girl a life well lived. I could explain marriage. I could explain sacrifice. I can explain death. There's so many things happening in that little moment.

And so I just would encourage parents. This isn't just you becoming a systematic theologian teacher. It's you using everyday life moments to talk about the realities of God, his gospel, life and death, marriage, covenants. There's those moments that are passing us by all the time. That doesn't mean you have to use every single moment. Sometimes you just have moments. But you can use those moments that could change the trajectory of your kid's life.

And I don't know about you two, but I have found myself as a young mom, I realized that if it's not in me, I'm not thinking about it. I'm not in it. I'm not in the Word. I'm not passing it along.

But when I've been in the Word or I've been listening to something or if I've been praying and I'm connected continually, not perfectly. But, Laura, I give you today. You know, I pray that you give me opportunity to see you working just as you said, T.J., of just, I mean, J.T.

Totally fine. Please call in T.J., please. My wife just calls me hate sometimes. I know a T.J., that's why I came out.

But anyway, like, it has to be in us for us to pour it out on them. I think that's big. When I realize I'm not talking about Jesus at all, it's because I've been watching my Netflix every single night and I'm not in the Word ever.

So I think that's important just as an evaluation of how am I doing myself spiritually. And I love that you grabbed that moment. Me too. As parents, it's easy to miss those. And we're old enough to know they're going to go and you're going to miss it and you're never going to get that moment again. Way to grab it, you know.

Thanks. I do think parents often think of conversations like those as the big, big conversations, kind of like the talking about sex. You know, it's like, oh, we've got to have a theology conversation. And it really is so much more of having a climate of conversation in your home in general so that everything is talked about in a thousand small conversations. And sure, there might be a few big conversations along the way.

And this is another one of those things. And I think another key element of it, Anne, that you just touched on is, you know, we all want to think that it's the conversation where we've prepared our notes and sat down to talk to them where they're really going to get the point. But it goes back to that whole Morris Cawthon taught thing, like people will ask me all the time, how did your kids develop a love for studying the scriptures? And I think what they think I'm going to say is, well, we sat them down and gave them a rubric and they had to complete it.

And the truth is, we never did that. But they saw me doing it and they saw Jeff doing it. And the other thing that our kids saw was Jeff and me having energetic conversations about theological concepts.

Energetic. And we invited the kids into that, right? First, they're kind of spectators maybe, but then they get invited into those conversations because what children want, they're asking the question, what does it mean to be an adult?

I want that. You know, you think about kids who are trying to do things that are not appropriate to their level of maturity. And so when we give them a positive vision of that, they move toward it. And so, you know, for single parents, there's someone you're having dialogue with. Maybe it's that you're in a small group and your kids are always off in another room. Well, maybe there's a way to have that space be shared at least part of the time. You know, one of my frustrations with the way that church can play out these days is that we sometimes are never all in the same spaces. You know, the younger children are off somewhere learning and the high schoolers are somewhere learning something. And so, you know, in your home, you have an opportunity for that to be a place where you're all having the conversation. But sometimes it's important for it to be beyond your home, too, where the kids, especially corporate worship, you know, I'm a big advocate of getting the kids in there once they're old enough to have the self-control to be in the room. And that's sooner than a lot of parents would think.

How old? Well, for our family, it was kindergarten. And that doesn't mean that they are taking copious notes on the sermon and reflecting it all back to you afterwards. But it means that they're absorbing, oh, this is what it is to be a mature Christ follower. And that's going to be your conversation starters, you know, so often to have these conversations.

It's fun. We have a two and a four-year-old grandkids that are … I was going to say, you better make sure you say grandkids. It sounded like we had a four and a two-year-old. Grandkids that are in worship with us. And they can hang about halfway through. And then they'll go back to their classes, but their parents are trying to get them in there.

And I think you're right, Jen. I think by the time kindergarten comes, they'll be able to hang the whole time. And I know not every church is structured that way, but it's thinking through. So like at our church, we take the month of June off from doing elementary programming specifically so that children will come in to worship with their parents. Because our structure at our church is not one that allows us to have a Sunday school hour.

And I know a lot of churches are like that, but it's asking as a parent, even if maybe your church staff is not asking, how am I strategically going to make sure that my children are getting exposure to what it means to be a mature follower of Christ? That's good. Now, do you do that as well in your home? I mean, as you were raising your kids, I know we just heard JT sort of the way he did it. Was yours similar? He said yours is better.

So I want to hear what it is. Well, we definitely had, you know, by the time the kids were older, it was once a week. We had our once a week Monday dinner where we sat down and everyone had to come with having read a, we would go through a book of the Bible and had to come with three observations and two questions. And then we built the conversation around that. And that was Jeff telling me to tamp it down and not make them annotate the text. And he was right, because we wanted it to be conversational in that space. And then, I mean, like the girls came to my Bible study, you know, they had a lot of opportunities to know about like the more formalized ways to go about studying the Bible. We did a What's in the Bible where we tried to teach the story of Scripture to them. But when it came to theological concepts, they were the car rides and the random tenet, which is why it's so, so important as parents not to fill empty spaces with, you know, handing them the video game or the phone or whatever. It's not that you would never do that. But if that's what characterizes you, you're giving away very, very precious times where these conversations bubble up to the surface. What I got to see in the Wilkin family, too, I got to meet Jen right before we had our first son.

So I kind of got to see and watch. You got to image and mimic something. Something that we've tried to image that I would just commend Jen for and would commend to everybody listening is if you can find a way to build a culture of curiosity where questions are okay, that's the key. It's not mom and dad want to teach you. It's that it's okay to ask questions. Any question.

Any question. And they did such a good job of cultivating curiosity where we're in their home at dinner. It's like, what are we going to talk about tonight? And there's excitement and it's not argument. It's not disagreement.

It's not let's fight each other. It is talking over each other sometimes. Sometimes there is yelling. It's enthusiastic. It's just enthusiastic. I don't know.

What do you think? Let's open our Bibles or let's talk. It doesn't always have to be biblical stuff. It's just there is a culture of learning, a culture of curiosity in your home that we're trying to find ways to imitate. But that's also what you built JT in the training program, you know, was that you invite that into the family of God where people are they think they have to show up with the right answer and make straight A's on whatever you ask of them or not show up at all.

And instead you say, no, that's not how this works. You know, we're going to we're going to ask the question we think we shouldn't ask or we're either we're afraid to because it sounds too scary or it sounds too dumb or too obvious. And we're going to get them all out there and we're going to talk about them. It's good.

Yeah. And I think is what you guys are modeling is the future of discipleship in my day was I mean, I was just thinking the first time I ever heard the concept attributes of God communicable. I was in seminary, literally in seminary. And again, I was discipled in college through crew, which was great at 10 basic steps.

They had some great materials. But it needs to be in the streets, on the field, like what you're modeling rather than you got to go to a school to get it. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. That's great. But you're saying, no, this is this is the call of the family of God to pass through the legacy. You should never have to leave the local church in order to lead in the local church.

Right. So I went to seminary twice. It was because I wasn't getting this in the life of my local churches.

I was I was the candidate for it. Like, yeah, I went to my pastor who's I'm still friends with him. He's a great guy, you know, three years in crew.

And I'm getting ready to leave thinking about joining staff with crew. And I just went to him and said, what am I? I don't know my Bible very well. I'd like to grow. And he says, oh, you want to grow? Now, if I'm a pastor and somebody comes to me and wants to grow, I'm like, come on, let's go. And he again, this is a man who loves Jesus and has been a faithful pastor.

And he says, oh, you want to grow? You need to go to seminary for that. And I said to him, because I was still so far outside of the evangelical subculture, what's seminary? I didn't even know what those things were that they existed.

People go to die. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so I had a great seminary. My experience in seminary was, was not dry. It was.

Ours was too. Oh, my goodness. Why is nobody telling me? I need to take this back to the church. And so one of the fun things about writing this book with Jen and then being able to be her colleague is, is we just got to we didn't try to do this. We didn't set out to do this. But we got to do theology together. Neither of us always came with the right answer. Like, well, the fun thing about the book was we wrote it in from several places and we would write a chapter and send it. And we're like, I think this is right.

Check my work. And comments would come back like, hey, do you really think this or what about this? And and so theology is a work that's never done. It's just the life of because the life of following Christ is never done. We're constantly learning. And one of the things that we're passionate about, too, is allowing this to be a male female dialogue. Sometimes in the church, there's male spaces for learning and female spaces for learning. But really, if the family of God is made up of fathers and mothers and spiritual brothers and sisters, then having the opportunity to do this together and learn from one another has been one of the greatest gifts in my life. And we also saw that happen in the life of our church, where there could be men and women sitting at a table together discussing this, whether they're husbands and wives or just friends and colleagues. It really created a lively environment in the life of our church.

I love that. Is there a small group curriculum coming? Well, it's actually kind of built in to the book itself.

Yeah. I just want to see you two on video teaching this material. I mean, you've got some free time, don't you, Jen? Yeah, there are questions at the end of each chapter. And we did that on purpose because we're local church practitioners and we know, you know, we know that when you get a book like this, you still need a little bit of help, you know, to get moving with leading a discussion, because I would. And so we've tried to write it in such a way that it's able to be picked up by someone who wants to sit down with their small group and work through it together.

We also, just one last thing related to the end of it. There's discussion questions at the end of each chapter that you can walk through. But we also believe that theology isn't just about knowing God or thinking about Him rightly, though it is that. It's also about loving Him.

So each chapter kind of has a formative practice or a spiritual exercise or prayer that allows us to say it wasn't just my mind that was changed, but because my mind was changed, my affections, my heart has been changed to worship God. Hey, we had one question for families to ask their kids at the dinner table yesterday. What was that?

Who is God? Oh, yeah. I remember that, yeah. And we're encouraging parents, pick up the book. You'll have a lot of questions to talk with your family about throughout the day. What's another question they could ask tonight?

Who are you? Yeah. You know, because I think we're living in a culture that is a very common.

That's huge. Identity. An identity question, but often the identities that we're forming are self-defined. Here's who I say I am. It's far more important that we know who God says we are. That we're made in His image full of dignity and value and worth and purpose. You've never met a human. One of our colleagues says, understanding and believing that every single human is an image bearer is one of the most inconvenient truths in the world. Because it has to change every single one of your interactions. Because all of a sudden this is somebody that God made and has dignity and value and worth.

There's no qualifications to that status of being an image bearer. So if I could encourage Christians to be thinking Christianly and biblically about human identity, that'd be my question. What about you, Jen?

Well, I mean, obviously that one really matters. But don't stop asking them questions until you get to the one where you ask, who are we? Who is the church?

Oh, that's good. Because we live in such an individualistic age and, you know, all of the statistics are out there that we're all alone together. That we are all, in many cases, living in the same home and not interacting with one another because we're so turned inward or focused on our own device or whatever. And the doctrine of the church connects us to one another. And it helps us understand that we're not alone, but not only we're not alone, but we actually are made to serve God and one another. And that's what we're all wanting is a bigger vision. We want something that transcends.

People don't always realize that's what they're missing. But when you recognize, oh, this isn't about me. It's about how I relate to God and how I relate to others. Then you're going to be grounded in, oh, that's an identity that has some shock absorbers to it.

Because it's not just dependent on me defining it and me maintaining it. It's good. Yeah. Did you have one?

You must have one if you ask me. No, I mean, Jen sort of hit on it, and it's in the book as well, but what's our mission? Yeah. You know, it's real easy as a family to be inward focused on us. We're the ones we care about. No, we're outward focused. You talk about serving, loving God and loving others. But what is our mission on this planet, which obviously you go all the way there in your book. But that's a great one for a family to realize we're not just here to serve ourselves. We're here to make a dent where we're sent.

That's right. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Davin and Wilson with Jen Wilkin and JT English on Family Life Today. Jen Wilkin and JT English have written a book called You Are a Theologian. It's an invitation to know and love God well. Theology can obviously sometimes be really intimidating, but it doesn't have to be, and this book really unpacks. Whether, you know, conversations about theology are good in certain times or bad or if they feel over your head or irrelevant, we want you to consider this book as an invitation into a dialogue with others. You know, earlier this week, we had on licensed therapist and author Sissy Goff talking about parents and dealing with issues that are very difficult, things like eating disorders, body image, and mental health and children.

Well, Sissy has written a book called The Worry Free Parent, Living in Confidence So Your Kids Can Too. This book is going to be our gift to you when you give today. You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to familylifetoday.com and clicking on the donate now button at the top of the page. Or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And feel free to drop us something in the mail if you'd like to. Our mailing address is Family Life 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832. As we approach this weekend, I want to ask you to pray for the weekend to remember marriage events that are happening all over the country, including Appleton, Boise, and Norfolk. We just wanted you to know that those are happening in those specific places between now and Sunday. And with over 40 events across the country, it's still happening this spring. And there's still time to find a location near you.

You can go to weekendtoremember.com to find a place and a date that might work for you and your spouse. And coming up next week, are you disappointed because God hasn't showed up the way you wanted him to? Or he just doesn't seem like he really cares? Well, Elizabeth Woodson understands that, and she's going to be here with David Ann Wilson to talk about her disappointment and how she's dealt with that in the gospel. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.