Beyond Small Talk and Sports: Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski, Darrin Mabuni, Aaron Ive

Isolation breeds distortion. It gets you in trouble.

When you get by yourself, you get distorted in your mind in the way you view God, the way you view others, the way you view yourself. It always ends up leading to something bad. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. All right, so today is Men's Day, day three of Family Life Today.

We got Darren and Brian back. I can't believe this is going for three days. I don't know what happened. Did you run out of guests?

Like, did you run out of people that could come here? You guys just won't stop talking. You know, you guys talk a lot.

Not a problem I have at home. Just getting warmed up, which is why we're here talking about it, isn't it? Vivian wants you to talk more, doesn't she?

Exactly. If you've missed the last two days, go back and listen. We talked about praying with your wife to love her and cherish her.

If you start praying with your wife, she's going to light up, right? That was day one. There were more things, but that was day two, yesterday. Brian, especially, you got into, let's talk about darkness.

I mean, we all did. The darkness that we struggle with, sort of the secret sins sometimes. We can talk about porn a little bit. And I think we should go a little bit deeper on that because one of the things we said yesterday, you guys remind me if I'm right, is one of the ways to deal with the darkness and the sin in your life, the temptations that are secret, is to tell somebody. Tell another guy. A lot of guys are like, okay, how do I do that? Yeah.

Where do I start? This is not something you just jump like, okay, I'm going to tell them about my porn thing I just did yesterday. And then we didn't even talk about it until you tell your wife.

Yeah. But let's talk about the man thing. Because a lot of guys just don't have anybody to talk to. I mean, we know this from weekend to remember conferences and just talking to guys and asking, you know, who are your guys in your life? And more often than not, guys are like, yeah, I don't really have anybody that I talk about these things. So they'll come up and talk to us as a speaker about things that they really need to be talking in a more local community about, but they don't have anybody. Yeah.

What do you do with that? If you got nobody, you have no idea even where to start. And we say that because I think a lot of times we qualify all the guys we hang out with and say, I can't talk to him and I can't, well, not him. And we don't take a step back and go, no, I can, because we may be the first person starting the conversation.

Interesting. It takes faith. It takes strength and courage to be able to go there. So that's one thing, because I think when people say, I don't have anybody to talk to, it really is, I've qualified all these other people and they're disqualified. You've got more people around you than you realize.

You've just already chosen ahead of time that you're not going to have that kind of connection with them. So you guys have guys in your life. Brian shared yesterday a confession you made to Ed. So you have this relationship. I think some guys heard that and like, I don't have an Ed in my life.

I don't have Brian in my life. How do I get them? How do I find these guys? Good question. That's a really good question. And I think it's a question that, frankly, it felt a lot easier in college or when maybe even before I was married. There's something about marriage where it's like, maybe I should be sharing all that with my wife and the guys kind of were too busy. And it's like, what did you have in college? We had time, generally, you know, and you probably put yourself in context where those conversations might have happened in some way, whether that's hanging out playing cards.

Yeah, yeah, playing ping pong or down in the, you know, where everybody's hanging out playing games or something. And you just get to know guys. And then you start having more of that, okay, maybe I can go a little bit deeper with that person. But it's because you spent time with them. And frankly, when I get married, I'm spending a lot more time with my wife, maybe my kids, than any other guys. And so I take myself out of that opportunity to go deeper. So where do you find guys then? Like, how do you get yourself in situations where you're going to be around more guys?

I think that's a good question to ask. Obviously, you got to be intentional. It isn't just going to happen. In college, it was happening because you're hanging with guys.

But you're right. I remember sitting one time with one of our pastors. I was about to go on stage to preach at a midweek service. And he turns to me, and we're both young dads with young kids. And he just turns to me and goes, dude, it used to be so simple. How is it so complicated now? And I'm literally, I got to walk on stage, but I'm like, you just opened up something deep.

What do you mean by that? And he just goes, wife, kids, job, money, budget. He goes, it feels so overwhelming. It's so complicated. Every decision I make has so many ripples now.

And it used to be just go to school, go to class. And he's right. I think we feel that as men, and yet we don't have any, I mean, he's saying that to me in a moment when he knows we can't have a conversation. But I remember when I got done with that sermon, I went over to him. I go, dude, we need to talk. Because I think that was a symptom of you want to talk to somebody that you can trust. So how do you find guys like that that you feel like I can be safe enough, this guy, I can go level five-ish down where it's a little dark and be honest. You guys have them.

How did you find them? Well, I think a lot of times we start with, we think about it and go, well, you have that. And we look at the end result and think, well, I can't get there. But that's not where you start.

We all start in the beginning, kind of like working out. You don't get to somebody who looks good at your insurance. Don't look as good as Darren.

You don't look as good as me. You've got some big guns right there. But the idea is we think about it and we start looking at the end instead of thinking everybody started somewhere. And so where you start is, I would say, even just thinking through all the guys in your life, in your day, even taking the time to take a little sheet of paper or take your phone out and write down all the people you actually interact with in a day. You'd be surprised or in a week how many men you actually interact with.

And we automatically cut them out or qualify, disqualify them. But start there and just maybe pick a couple that you want to just talk with. And when we talk about conversation, you're not going to just jump into intimacy or deep.

Just start talking about things that you enjoy and see if there's some kind of connection. Being able to maybe go shoot some baskets or do something. I was going to say have coffee. We don't do that. No, you're going to say go lift weights.

Well, you can lift weights. But doing something or even just having some time to just chat about the game and seeing if there's some connection. Starting there and then moving a little deeper with a little something about maybe my family or my kids or myself. I think what I found, because I think part of it is just I don't even know how to start these conversations. I don't know where to go or how to get to that whatever level I need to get to to have intimacy with another guy. And so putting yourself in context where you could experience that and have almost a third party help you. So it's not like me having to come up with all this stuff, whether that's a men's retreat, whether that's a men's Bible study. It's probably going to happen in some faith centered arena because I don't see this happening at your work or when you're playing sports with somebody.

Those conversations just don't happen. So I need to put myself in a place where I'm going to have to be intentional over time in a certain set amount of time. So we were just working on art of marriage. And I think one of the best things you can do if you want to have that opportunity is sign up for something like that. Do a six week study or a marriage retreat where you're going with other guys and they actually are prompting you to have conversations and you realize I can do this. So you could be the one to initiate it. Because maybe nobody else is doing it. You be that guy.

People talk all the time. Be the person that you want to be. The person you're looking for.

Start being that guy. And even just listening to you guys, I'm thinking, all right, what all this presupposes is one that I am going to make a commitment that isolation is not going to characterize my life anymore. And again, as you're listening to this, nobody knows whether you're committed to staying alone. Because if you are, none of this matters. God is saying the way I've rigged this thing, you need other people to be able to experience me to the fullest, but also just to experience the joy and the life that I have for you.

It's in the midst of other people. That's a decision we have to make. But then two, am I going to be the type of person that is going to equip myself to start looking for those kinds of relationships? Dudes that I can connect with. I like what you just said, Darren. It doesn't start at level five, but it at least starts by initiating and saying, let's get together.

Let's get together and do art of marriage or let's go do something that we like to do together and just start to talk. And Brian, you talked about having questions. Because I think that's how it really starts, isn't it? It's me being curious about you instead of waiting for you to be curious about me. Just like we say in marriage. Same thing. If I'm trying to develop relationships, what does it look like to be curious about somebody else's life? How would you guys do that? Just answer that.

What are some questions that you ask just to be curious when you're with other people? I know that when I 35 something years ago and I moved to Detroit to be the Detroit Lions chaplain, did I mention that? That's number five. Keep it a tally.

No, literally. I was a Christian long enough to know what we're talking about right now is men need men. You ever become a man, you need men. So you got that. And couples need couples.

But we're talking today about this manhood thing. I knew as soon as I got to Detroit and I didn't know a lot of people, I'm like, I've got to find my guys. I've got to find these guys. And so I always, and I've preached on this before, I said, you want to find people that you connect with, I call it affinity. You like the same stuff. Maybe you're a movie guy. And I have guys I go to movies with because we love movies. Maybe it's sports or whatever it is. Find that group.

But then here's the other thing that I had to find is like, okay, you got the affinity. So now you're going to say, let's put something on the calendar and say, let's meet. And so I found these guys and I said, let's make it Thursday night. Actually, this is a morning thing before work. So it was a 6 a.m.

I think it was Monday morning. Seven guys I'd met at this church and I didn't know any churches. I wasn't a pastor. I was just, you know. And so I meet these guys.

I said, let's start meeting. The other area is affinity. Here's the second one for me. Intensity. How intense do you want to go with these guys? Do you want to just be superficial? We play sports together. Hey, you're good. See you later.

We'll work out again next week. Or do you want to go somewhere with it? Like, do you want to say, I want to open my life a little bit. I want to guide my life.

So I was like looking for not level 10, but intense. I was like, I want somebody to know me. So how did you do that? What did that look like? Well, here's what happened.

This is sort of funny. I get these guys and we start meeting and I'm not kidding. It had to be eight, nine meetings in.

So every week. And I'm really starting to like these guys. And I'll just be honest. I walk in this one day and I go, guys, I got to confess something that I struggle with this week.

I feel safe with you guys. And I haven't even told my wife yet, but I'm going to tell you and then I'm going to go home and tell her. And they're like, wow, what is it? Now you got their interest.

They just stopped the cars. And what's he going to say? And you'll laugh now. But this was back in the day when Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue came out. And I never looked at it and would get that because I was a subscriber.

She would get that one before it got to her mailbox. I never even saw that issue. Well, somehow it got through and I got it and I looked at it.

I didn't spend hours on it, but I flipped through each page. And so I say this to these guys and I go, I just, I feel horrible. And I haven't done this in years. And I'm going to go home and tell Ann, but I need to tell you guys. You know what the response was?

To a guy. Me too. The response was, you are a corrupt perverted man. I am not kidding. I thought they were kidding at first.

And I did. I mean, each guy was like, dude, that is. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. You guys have never, none of you have ever, not one time, never. We would never ever do this. That was the response.

So guess what I did when I got in my car? These aren't my guys. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, they're great guys. I love these guys.

They're wonderful guys. So that story doesn't turn in another direction. That's really what happened. That's what happened.

And I got in the car and I, and that's here. Here's the encouragement for guys. Sometimes you think you found your guys and you're like, this isn't working. Try another group.

Sometimes you try a small group at a church, even a marriage group. Yeah. Don't give up. And it's not really, keep going.

It isn't like this doesn't work. No, you got to find your guys. Guess what? I found my guys and they are level five guys where you say something like that. They're like, brother, thank you for sharing.

Let's walk this together. It isn't always me too. Although a lot of times it is too.

But I remember it's like, they didn't want to go to the intensity level. Cause you guys know what I know. They're all lying.

I was going to say, let's roll tape on the last week of your life. But they were not willing to go there and they were good with that in their group. Okay. That's your group.

I'm going to go find my guys and my wife is going to thank me for finding my guys. And so the intensity thing, you got to decide how bad do I want this and do I want guys that want it as bad? And if you get that, man, I have guys now in my life, they've been in my life 30 years.

And it was like the next group or two after that. And we've wept together and we've shared struggles together. And I've done their daughters and sons' weddings. And it's the greatest gift God's ever given me and given Anne and her family.

I tear up thinking about these guys because you can't be a man without them. And I think we give up too quickly. I think that's good. You're going to get burned, right? Yeah. Yeah. Or with broken men broken.

And so you're going to probably get burned. It doesn't mean that the principle is not right. Cause like if you look through, if you look through scripture, like even like saying guys, it's like anytime you see in a pattern in scripture where it's like you have Paul and Barnabas, you have David and Jonathan, you have Peter and John. It's somebody, Jesus. Jesus, first thing he did when he came down, if there's anybody who didn't need anybody, he got his guys.

There's somebody that always follows the and, and when somebody doesn't follow the and, it's trouble. Samson and Delilah and nobody else. When David stopped and wasn't able to be with Jonathan, he got killed.

And he wasn't with his 50 mighty men that were around him. It was David and Bathsheba. And so it's like, who follows the and in your life and in my life. And if I don't have somebody, then I need to start like what you said, Darren, I need to start putting myself in context and places where I can start developing that. Well, you mentioned art of marriage earlier.

And I remember Crawford, who's in this new art of marriage again. Remember when he said, he said, isolation breeds distortion. Yeah. It gets you in trouble. You get by yourself, you get distorted in your mind and the way you view God, the way you view others, the way you view yourself, it always ends up leading to something bad. It's interesting.

We're given these bad examples though. And Dave, again, I can't believe that that happened to you because I think I do want to say this. You have to be prepared that you may get burned. But I think most of the time, man, when, at least in my experience, when I've been honest, when I brought stuff like that to the table, even with guys I don't hardly know, it actually usually elicits a response that's basically saying, thank you. You just gave me permission to be honest.

I didn't know we were going to play like that. Thank you for that. Right. Most of the time, I think that happens. But don't be surprised when it doesn't and don't quit. And you got to decide what your commitment level is to perception management.

That's the other thing I'm thinking about. If I'm committed to making sure that you view me a certain way, I'm probably never going to be able to be honest. Like I have to decide ahead of time, I'm broke, fellas.

I'm coming in broke. Now, there may be some things that you like about me and there are some good things, but I'm starting with brokenness. If I lead from there into relationships, I think things usually go pretty well. It goes a lot better than trying to maintain this goodness or this sense of this is my image. Like everybody looks good from a distance.

So why not go ahead and just let them see the real me? It's a decision. It's a decision, though, and it's not easy.

Yeah. So talk about this. We've talked the last couple days about being a husband. What about being a dad? How do men in your life help you be a better dad? And I've got three sons. You've got sons and daughters, so it's different in every way. But have you found that to be a real struggle or has it been something that you've navigated pretty successfully? I mean, I grew up with no dad.

He was out. So when I became a dad and I became a Christian later in my life, so I was like, I have no idea what a Christian dad looks like. So I was at a loss.

Family life was a huge benefit to me. Dennis Rainey and the materials, that's why the art of marriage is going to be such a gift. It's going to say, this is what men do. This is what women do.

This is what marriage looks like. That I needed. I was lost. And so that helped, but other men as well.

What about you guys? So needed other men. I mean, my dad was there. I didn't come to know the Lord until later in life too, as did my dad. But he modeled humility to me and that carried me a long way. But talk about humility. When I talk about being a dad, when thinking that I know how to do life or walk with Jesus, when I got married, I realized that, gosh, I know nothing. And then when we had our first kid, I thought, oh gosh, I'm done.

What do I know? The most humbling thing, being a dad. And yet I could draw some upon what my dad taught me. But even more so, getting involved with ministry, getting involved with the church and other men helped me begin seeing what it meant to be a dad.

And then getting to know my father in heaven, so huge for me, beginning to shape what it looks like to be a dad, but also put me under the pile. Yeah, I think about perception management you were talking about. That's probably where I get hit as a dad a lot because I want people to think my kids are great.

Whether they perform in sports, school, whatever. And where I find that I get the most growth is when I realize I have somebody else that I can talk to about my failures as a dad. Or that I feel like my kids aren't measuring up. And there's nothing worse than getting that 2 a.m. call from another parent that you think your daughter is somewhere and then you realize she hasn't been.

And she's actually been deceiving you for a long time about something in her own life. And you realize, I didn't even really know my kids. I thought I was being a good parent.

And maybe I was being a good parent, but my kids are making their own decisions. And who do I share that with? Because here's what I felt in that moment, that 2 a.m. moment is like, I didn't want to share that with anybody.

I hope nobody finds out about this. You know what's interesting to you again, just in this context, I feel like that was one of the, you know, everybody says, well, you guys have been hanging out for the last five years, which we have. And so there is a different level of vulnerability and intimacy that's developed over time. But one of the first things we ever talked about when we didn't know each other that well was sharing honestly about some stuff that was ripping our guts out about our kids. And so I just thought of that as you were saying that. And again, it's a risk, but it's like you're not made to carry that by yourself, you know? And I remember you saying that you felt like you almost needed to ask Jennifer permission as to who we were going to talk about this with.

And I've done that before too, like who outside of our circle is going to know about this? And there's again, there's a healing. There's a, will you bear this burden with me?

I don't know how to make my kids do what I most want them to do. You know, can you join me in carrying that together? That's been huge for me to have other guys that would just tell me the truth about their own inadequacies and their own victories.

Yeah, both. That's been as helpful as anything. Guys that have said, don't get so worked up about what's happening right in this moment. Take a longer view. Be patient, you know, express love.

Let them know that you really are there. You know who's discipled me more in parenting than almost anybody else was Harry Chapin. When he's saying the cat's in the cradle.

You want me to do it for you? Seriously, long before I got married and even had kids, that song has resonated in my mind and just saying, I don't want my story at the end to look like what he was singing about. That I never made time or space for my kids while they were in the home.

And so they, you know, they weren't going to make time and space for me later. That's haunting me, you know, and images like that are motivating me to try to live differently today. And it gives you and I love exposing my kids to some of these other people that are in my life, you know, like that's where it's like, I don't have to actually be the only parent in their life.

Yeah, talk about that. And I think we end up feeling like carrying the burden to me isn't just about carrying the burden of pains. But it's also about teeing my kids up to be around other people besides me because I mess up.

I'm broken. I need them to see other examples because my kids aren't just like me. They're not a mini version of me.

So get them around other believers. I mean, you talked with my son, Palmer, while he was at camp and just about some tough things that he was going through at college. And it was like, I was so glad and relieved to know that I'm not the only voice in my son's life. And it's been great when, you know, have guys over at your house, like let your kids see you interacting with that group of and guys so that they know, oh, yeah, dad's taking time away from me right now.

And he's actually getting poured into by these others. There's something about modeling that and seeing that this is a part of my rhythm that's so important. So that when my kids are at an age where I know they need other coaches in their life, I got other guys to go, hey, you know that, you know, he was or Darren was over my house. And I'd love for you to talk to him about that issue because frankly, he knows more about it than I do. And I love what you just said, because I don't know about you guys.

For me, have you ever had the situation where your kid comes home and they had just been with a friend of yours and they said, dad, you know what Brian said? He said this. And I'm thinking, I've said that a million times. You never heard that from me. And so now I've learned to go, wow, that's great. In the beginning, I said, well, we've only talked about it 12 times. That's right.

You're offended by it, right? But what I love about what you're saying is we get to choose even the people that can continue to also parent them. And that's so huge because they will learn from others anyway. But to be able to have other people in their lives, they're listening, they're learning, and to have those other people in our lives, we're not alone. And it kind of leads me back to even the men why we're not alone and why we pursue other men and start sorting through people that we want to continue to do life with because that matters even with our family. Yeah, that's so good, Darren.

Yeah, that almost brings us all the way back to the beginning. You need men, other men, to be married well, to parent well, to just live well. Robert Putman, I was thinking about this. Robert Putman was a sociologist who wrote a book called Bowling Alone.

You guys know that, but super famous. And what was it that he argued in that book that we as a nation, we used to have all these social connections that were just sort of built into the fabric of the way we did life. And increasingly over these last few decades, we've gotten more and more separated from each other. Okay, so that's the way things are. As Christian men, again, we need to say not on my watch. That doesn't have to be our culture. It doesn't have to be our culture. In my corner of the world, I'm going to live in a way that says I value. Again, I may be in a season where I don't have a lot of time and space right now.

Granted, don't let that season turn into a lifetime. I'm going to be intentional to move towards other guys because my wife needs me to do it, my kids need me to do it, and I need it. I got a story about that. I try to put my kids in front of other just good people, you know, when I'm on a trip with me or something like that. And so I told Palmer we're going to go to breakfast, and Palmer's my oldest son, we're going to go to breakfast with this guy. He's a bright guy, but he's in his thirties, you know, and so he's younger than I am. But I want you to come prepared with some questions. Like, I want you to ask the questions.

And Palmer's like 16 or 17. And so my kids have learned to know that whenever we go out with somebody else, they've got to ask some questions. You've got to have a question. We're not leaving the table. You're with another person, get some wisdom.

You know, it says in Proverbs that, you know, seek it above gold and silver, find wisdom, hunt for it. And not just how old are you, but you want them to ask like a substantive question, right? Yeah, it's not like what do you do and how many kids do you have?

Are you dog person or cat person? No, it was substantive questions. And Palmer asked him this question, which I thought was really bright. He said, what surprised you about yourself once you got married? Yeah, that's good.

That's a good question. But the answer that this guy gave was far better than anything that I would. I've told Palmer about this, but the fact that it was coming out of this guy's mouth was so much better. And he said, I thought for some reason after I got married, I wouldn't struggle with porn anymore. I made the mistake of believing that my lust problem would go away and it got worse. And I asked Palmer later afterwards, I said, so what'd you hear in that conversation? He's like, I couldn't believe what he said about porn.

Because I've been thinking that when I get married, I won't lust anymore. And it's like, man, I didn't have to give that to him. Somebody else did. Yeah, that's good, Brian. Yeah, and again, that's men initiating to get men in our lives and in our kids' lives. I remember, and I encourage a guy to do what we did. We started praying for a guy. We had three sons. Ann and I started praying when they were little boys for a man to be a mentor for them besides us. And God answered it. Our oldest had Frank and he's an attorney in our church.

And guess what? CJ, my oldest, is 37. Frank and the guys that were in his middle school group still hang out. They do a trip every year together to Tennessee with the guys that he put together a little small group in middle school.

I'm like 20-some years later. And then Austin had Ryan and my youngest, Cody, had Rob. And I remember one time, Cody, my youngest, was down in the basement and they're all middle school boys.

There's like eight of them and Rob's down there. And I crack open the basement door. Like, I wonder what they're talking about. You know what they're talking about?

Masturbation. Oh, man. And I was like, yes!

This is awesome! Some other guy was saying the same things I'm going to be saying to my boy about this. And I thought, thank you, God, for, like you said, they're going to hear it so much better sometimes from somebody else than us. But it only happened because we prayed and then we asked. Wow. That's interesting. And then God meets that need.

God's voice is amplified through other men. Yeah. I hate that. You want it to come just from you. But if there's something about that community, that's why it's so important.

Isolation is not an option. It's good. I would just say men's day at Family Life Today for three days has been pretty rich. It's been fun. Thanks, guys.

Loved it. Yeah, I have found that it is really important not only for me to have other men speaking into my life, but for other men to speak into the lives of my kids as well. I have two daughters. It's good for them to have good male role models who are not necessarily me.

So I love that word. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave Wilson with Brian Goins, Ed Yuzinski, Darren Mabuni on Family Life Today. Well, as we approach the spring, you're inevitably starting to think about small groups probably that might be starting up in your church or whatever ministry you're involved in. And Family Life's brand new art of marriage is one of those things that we'd love for you to consider because it really does give a lot of vulnerability and foster great discussion.

A lot like the discussion that you heard today on the men's roundtable. As soon as you press play on it, it generates a really deep knowledge of God and deeper knowledge of each other as you guys go through it together. We're talking about vulnerable, relatable stuff that really helps to foster hope along with giving you some great marriage input from marriage experts. So if you want to learn more about the brand new art of marriage, you can go to the show notes or artofmarriage.com to learn more and grab your leader kit today. It's Friday, and I want to ask you to pray for the weekend to remember marriage events that are happening starting today and going through Sunday. There's events happening all over the country, including Colorado Springs, Hershey, Hilton Head, Kansas City, Napa, and Tulsa.

So with over 40 events happening across the country, they're still going on all the way through the spring. So there's time to find a location near you and figure out what might be best for your schedule in the coming months. So you can go to weekendtoremember.com, figure out a time and place that's good for you, and book your weekend to remember marriage getaway right now. Now, coming up next week, Jared C. Wilson is here to talk about what it means to really understand and experience a close relationship with Jesus on the practical level. That's next week. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David and Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.