Prayer–A Man’s Battlefield: Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski, Darrin Mabuni, Aaron Ivey

We tend to want to go right to the titles or right to the roles, like let's talk about men's roles and they need to be leaders in the home and they need to be head of the household and we throw these terms around that are biblical. It talks about, you know, headship and all that type of thing. But when you start with love is Jesus love, it has very little to do with dominance priority.

It's all about what was that model. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

All right. It is man's day on Family Life Today. I don't know if I've ever had a men's panel sitting around the studio in Family Life Today in my history.

And I've been here like 50 years, so I don't know. This is Dave's den. This is Dave's den. This is Dave's lion's den. I've got three lion men in here. It's exciting.

All right. We got Brian Goins, Ed Yazinski, and Darren Mabuni in the studio. You tell our listeners, what do you guys do?

I know you and Ed hang out in hotel rooms. Oh, that just got dark. That's a creepy way to start. Thank you.

Well, tell them what I mean by that. Yeah. There's a lot of different directions we could go. But basically, yeah, Ed and I have been working together pretty, pretty tightly in terms of helping to revamp. We can remember.

And so you guys are all on the team. And so it's been great to do that and to see how we've been able to restructure it and reimagine it for future generations. And so if you haven't been, I definitely encourage you to go, especially if it's been a while. It's worth checking back out again. And it's not your parents' conference anymore. Let's just say that. And we really had a great time doing that. And for some reason, they said, well, since you reimagined that, how about reimagining this series, like the most popular series ever in family life is done.

That's not been intimidating. And of course, you talk about the art of marriage. The art of marriage. And so when I say you're in hotel rooms, you've been traveling the country interviewing couples and men and women.

And again, that means you're getting a hotel room and spending time there. But tell the listeners what we're doing here. Working closely with RightNow Media. So they've been partnering with us to make this six-part series on marriage, which was a flagship resource from 2010.

2011 it came out. Millions of people have seen, right? People are familiar with the art of marriage. Classic now we're calling it. But again, they just wanted us to freshen it up, maybe see if we could take that same source material and reimagine it is the word we keep using. I think we're running out of imagination.

That's right. We used up about all we have, but we've been working the last two years pretty intensely on that and are super excited about what it is right now and hoping it's going to help people have conversations about marriage they most need to have. Yeah, we're going to discuss some of the things that actually are in the art of marriage, right?

Some of the man stuff. Darren, what do you do? What I'm doing now is working with Family Life expansion. When I heard that Family Life was reaching the masses, but then we wanted to go from the many to the every, I got excited.

Explain that. The many to the every. We've done the radio program. We've done materials. We've done resources and done a great job at it. But when I started hearing Family Life local on the ground, reaching out to people in their homes where they're at, I got excited.

I made the switch because I wanted to be a part of that. Right in the community, right? Darren's really on the front end of helping to equip people to be Family Life where they are. What we call guides. Just people that are helping to guide others towards Jesus, towards oneness.

It's not dependent upon things that happen here in Orlando. Obviously, the art of marriage is a tool for guides. Hopefully, guides are going to share this with the last one, millions.

Are you guys dreaming millions? The first one was pioneering. I think that's why people latched onto it.

Bob Lapine, Dennis Rainey, Barbara, that team that put it together really moved away from the solo person on camera talking about marriage to more of that symphony of voices and creativity and just unique skits and funny things. To be able to create that, now it's in 17 languages. We would love to be able to do a fraction of that.

If God would bless it even more, man, we're awesome. I think one of the things we've talked about a lot is would you just reach new and different people with this? Maybe people that don't even know anything about Family Life or don't know anything about any marriage ministry. But they just want some help. Just how to have conversations about the things that really matter between us but that we either don't make space to talk about or we're not sure how to.

We don't have the language to talk about it. This will set people up to have those conversations, we hope. And to do it in a group, too. It's really set up to say, hey, would you guys get five or six couples and come over our house and for the next five weeks we're going to look at this. Or maybe you do it on a Friday, Saturday at a church or something like that.

So it's flexible in how you would use it to just help people get together and talk. So we're in a group, sitting here as four men in a room and there's men listening and women. And I'm hoping the ladies that are listening are going, I've got to get my husband, my son. I want them to hear this program because one of the things we know is all four of us are husbands and we're all four dads.

I'm the only grandfather. So when I walk into church and I talk to men and I mention our call as husbands, most men in the church know this passage. I'm going to read it to you and I want you guys to just say, how do you do this? Because I think we as men, we know this passage, we've heard it.

I'm not sure we always understand what does that look like in our homes? And it's Ephesians 5, 25. The longest text in the Bible about marriage is Ephesians 5.

You know this, right? I'm not telling you guys as scholars and theologians. But it says, husbands loved your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. And you know, there's more. But that passage, and again, you're probably going, what of all those words are we going to talk about?

There's a lot. But let's just talk about the first part. Love your wives as Christ loved the church.

How do you guys do that? Unfortunately, Dave, I think when people hear, I heard somebody say this before. We tend to want to go right to the titles or right to the roles. Like, let's talk about men's roles and they need to be leaders in the home and they need to be head of the household.

And we throw these terms around that are biblical. It talks about, you know, headship and all that type of thing. But when you start with love as Jesus loved, it has very little to do with dominance, priority.

It's all about what was that model look like? And so you got to go back to like, what's your poster on your wall for what does it look like to be a husband? And if you don't start with Jesus and you start with my idea of what headship looks like, or my idea of what, you know, man being the man of the house looks like, then you miss it. You tend to end up becoming a pretty dangerous man. Well, immediately you think, how did Jesus love the church? And again, he died.

So you don't really even need to read anything beyond that to have the bar set pretty high. I die first. I heard somebody say, Brian, you might have even said that. It probably was me. It probably was you.

One of the hotels. What it means is that I die first. Yes, Amy also has a responsibility as a Christ follower to die in her own ways to herself on behalf of our relationship. But that's not for me to worry about. I need to worry about making sure I'm dying first to serve her, to study her, to create an environment where she can flourish instead of just trying to have a me marriage where I get all whatever my needs are, my desires are, like that becomes secondary if I'm doing it right.

And I like what you're saying because, but I think we tend to take it a little differently as men because we look at Jesus dying. And I'm like, I'll die for my wife. You know, one time I'll die. I'll put it all on the line. I will do that for my wife, my kids, my family, everybody.

But will I really live for her day to day? And that's what you're talking about, dying to self day to day. And that's the harder part because we take the end of the gospel when Jesus died and we forget Jesus living for us and living for them. And so that's, I think, the bigger challenge. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, later in the passage, he used two words, cherish and nourish your wife. And I don't know if you've ever done this, but years ago I looked up the definition of cherish because I think love often in our culture is just, what's it mean? I love Jesus.

I love burgers. Cherish, I looked it up. You know what I mean?

It means attach high value and it means pricey. If you cherish something, it's valuable and it's pricey and you spend money on it. And I thought, you guys tell me if you feel the same way. Men are good at cherishing stuff.

Yeah. I do. I cherish a car, a set of golf clubs. Your motorcycle. My motorcycle. I've got several guitars and I'm not kidding. If you want to play my guitar, I would literally make sure your belt buckle was covered by your shirt. I mean, all this stuff like, no, these things are, you know, and I, and seriously, nobody's getting on my motorcycle ever.

Not going to happen unless you're an experienced writer. And here's a joke in our home. I literally have a room that has four or five guitars hanging on the wall, electric, and there's more in the closet. And that room, it used to be a bedroom, is the most humidified room in the house because I have a humidifier in there.

Because there would, right? And you got to, and we're in Michigan, so, you know, be in Ohio. So it gets dry. And so this humidifier, it's on my phone. I know the humidity of that room any second on my phone and I take care of it. And my wife said to me one time, I mean, we literally get in bed, she goes, my nose is so dry at night. Can we not have a humidifier?

And she's saying, would you humidify me? You know, and it was like, I cherish the guitars. She often hasn't felt cherished.

Talk about that. Because I think our wives long for it. I think God calls us cherish them as a valuable part of your life. And I don't know if you guys are like me, but we cherish other things. And sometimes we don't cherish the most important person in our life. Well, I wonder where it goes because I think it's true that when we get married, I think most guys would say that they cherish this woman that they're about to marry. That they place a super high value. They're ready to leave everything behind to be with her. But then somehow that seems to fade over time, right?

And it's much easier to get more enamored with a guitar than it is this person that God has given me to create an environment for so that she flourishes. I just don't think about that anymore. So yeah, what happens to that?

Where does that go over time? Well, and I think a lot of it, too, is because there was something about that goal of getting married where I was... You didn't have to tell me to cherish Jen. All the time. I would have humidified her all the way up until the wedding. Watch out. You were trying not to. Yeah, I know.

I was trying not to turn up the heat, right? But once we get married and that kind of newness, in fact, the neurologist will talk about love drugs and how you're enamored. You have these endorphins that are released in your brain that last for about 36 months. There's just something about that person that draws you to. And so depending on how long your engagement was, dating was, and your early marriage, those can wear off.

And then you're just left with, well, where do I really get my energy from? And for most men, we get our energy from other things other than our wife, than getting to this goal of marriage. And so whether that's work, whether that's sports, hobbies, collectibles, whatever it might be, there's some value that we feel comes back to us. And so if I feel value from those things, I'll put more value into them. And unfortunately, we kind of take that person for granted over time.

I know I've done that with Jen, and it's easy to do. Are there times in your marriage where you feel like you've cherished her? I mean, she said, I feel loved, I feel cherished. And if there are, what are you doing?

What's that look like? Yeah. Even just saying it like that, I think men, we got to stop guessing, when does our wife feel cherished? And just ask, like, Jen, when do you feel most cherished by me? And I'll tell you what she'll say when I pray with her, which I did not do for 23 years of our 27 years of marriage. I mean, we prayed before dinner, and I knew I should pray with her. I knew that she wanted to be pre-prayed with, but to lead in that way, I felt so intimidated, so insecure.

I just wouldn't do it. And yet I knew she wanted it. And when I pray with Jen, she feels cherished.

She feels like I'm humbling myself before God with her. So you've only been doing it four years. Yeah. I mean, consistently. And it didn't mean that there weren't times where we prayed and our teenagers were going their own crazy, stupid ways.

And yeah, that'll drive you to your knees. So there were definitely times, moments, but consistently going, let's pray together. And I'd heard you on the radio or speaking. I've heard Dennis Rainey say, best thing I ever did for my wife was pray every night. And I was like, I felt so intimidated by that.

Felt like a failure. Do you guys find the same thing? Because when Brian said that, I know for my wife, that's like foreplay. I mean, she loves when we pray together. And I try to do it every single day. And it isn't just because I want to cherish her.

I want it to be an overflow of my own walk with God. But I don't know if that's true for every wife, but I think it is for most Christian women. They're leaning their heads right now saying, honey, listen to this. Would you please do that with me? Is it true for you guys?

I mean, Viv loves that. When we pray together, she is a lot more open to me, just in general. And I think a lot of times prayer, because it's so intimate, it becomes challenging for men.

Almost scary. It is, because I wasn't taught to really get in touch with a lot of my feelings. You know, I was growing up, and so when we talk about feelings, all the guys kind of shut off with feelings. So where do I go when it comes to feelings? I go immediately to my secondary emotion, that's anger.

So I don't know how to deal with my feelings. So when we get to places like this, when we talk about cherishing, valuing, things are easier than people. And so I know how to do certain things, but then I have to, because my wife is not static, she's dynamic.

And so here we go. I knew how to help you when you're here in this one spot. But now what do I do? Because you moved across the room. And now I'm baffled.

And I'm like, oh, wait, I think the game's on. So I think it is intimidating. I think it comes back to even me getting to know how I'm feeling, how I'm doing. And prayer actually helps, because I'm doing something that's spiritual. I'm talking to the Lord and talking with the Lord, but it's also intimate. And so it begins to tap into something in me, and there's a connection with my wife. And all of a sudden, we are talking. And so it's actually even not just foreplay, but a great entrance into conversation.

Yeah, good, that's exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking, what are the reasons that our wives would be attracted to us praying with them? Because I'm scared to death of it, too. It's just the strangest thing, man, to be able to pray fairly easily in front of groups of people or within groups of men or whatever. But there's just something about being with this woman who's the closest of anyone on the earth to me, that there is an intimidation factor to it. But when I get past myself and I make myself do that, she feels secure. She feels like, Brian, like you said, that I am dependent on God and not just myself. But always what precedes that is conversation.

That's what I was thinking. Like, you just don't all of a sudden pop up and start praying together, usually. There's something that came before that that you're talking about. And I think Amy appreciates just when I initiate asking about the kinds of things that we would even wind up praying about. What are you struggling with? What's going on? You seem like something's bothering you.

What do you think we should do with the thing going on with our kids? She's feeling cherished when you just even bring that up. Totally, because I'm paying attention to her. I'm not just thinking about myself.

And instead of coming in with a bunch of answers, which I usually don't have anyways, I'm just asking her to tell me what's going on inside and trying to patiently absorb that and listen to it. And then I know at the end of that we need to pray because I don't know what to do with this. Because I can't fix all that, right? Right. I mean, what's the fear thing?

I don't know, man. I've experienced it and I've shared it here before. And maybe you've heard me say it even at a weekend to remember, because this is a moment in our marriage that I'm embarrassed about. But it was a Sunday night. I'm crawling in bed at 11 o'clock and spent a long day, preached three times, probably 20 years ago.

So kids were middle schoolish and below. Life's crazy. Some of you are even just out of that stage. But anyway, Ann says to me, as we're crawling in bed, something to the effect that, man, I so wish the man that led our church lived here. Just sort of this fleeting comment as I'm literally laying my head on the pillow. Right. Now you're up.

Now you're back up. I'll never forget. Maybe you've heard this story. And I know our listeners have maybe years ago. But I turned to her and just said, what are you talking about? And I was angry because partly I was really tired.

And I'd given myself all day to other people. And she just said, just watching you this morning on that stage, praying with a fervency that I rarely see here. I lost it. She grabbed her hand and said, shall we pray? Dude, I'm like, let me tell you, I've seen the other husbands in this church.

You've got the best man. I mean, I just lost it. But the next day, as I got alone with God and sort of said, was that a message from you? I felt like, yeah. And it was like, it's easier for me to stand on a stage and pray fervently and lead strong to thousands of people than in a family room or a kitchen or even a bedroom with one woman that I've given my life to. And I know this.

She would love for me to pray right now. And I'm like... Feel lethargic, feel insecure. Or it is so intimate. It is sort of scary. And so it's easier to do the man thing rather than that. Have you guys experienced that? Because I know she lights up when I do the right thing, but sometimes it's just hard. And I was thinking about two things.

One, I think that there's something about it, and we hate to say it, but if we could get real, when we're in those moments, there is something about performance for men that kicks in. Yeah. And you hate to say it. You're talking about the public. Just public, whether I'm preaching, whether I'm praying, teaching. There's something about I'm in front of people, and I can't divorce my motives, my fleshly motives and my spiritual motives.

They're in sync. When I'm alone or with my family, they know me. And they know that I'm stressed. So I'm not in front of anybody.

It's just me, my wife and the Lord. And there's a sense of, okay, what... You're exposed, man. I'm exposed. You feel naked. It's vulnerable.

You feel naked. And just even thinking about, for us, it was just being vulnerable enough to go, I'm going to initiate, and I'm going to trust the Spirit in this moment. That's the beauty of the gospel. The beauty of the gospel is it's not about what I'm doing and performing for God.

It's about how God wants to perform in me and through me in that moment that I don't feel confident. When most men don't feel confident about an area, we don't move. Yeah. We freeze. Yeah, we freeze. And that's when the Spirit's going, okay, now follow me. Follow me in the freeze. Follow me when you feel least able to do it.

And I will give you the words to even do it. I love what you're saying because a lot of times when we're doing this, it's outside of us. And doing that or having to talk about what's going on inside, it's intimidating. And yet, it's perfectly what God called us to, is to be integrated. By our outside self and our internal self.

And we have an opportunity. And a lot of times I miss this. And it's still something I'm getting tuned into of, okay, I'm doing this well on the outside. I am confronted to deal with what's going on in the inside. And I think the Holy Spirit's allowing us to stop and to make that connection and to begin to grow in that area so that we are integrated, both who we are on the outside and inside. So a lot of times I'll just kick myself and go, I suck.

I'm a loser. And then freeze or flee rather than at some point stop and listen and go, okay, so what's going on inside that's stopping me and allowing God to work through my wife, through other people who are speaking into my life. But again, we're talking about being integrated, taking that time. But because it's scary and because we're thinking this is something that's attacking me, I'm just going to flee. If we can stop, if we can wait, take a step back and go, God, what are you doing, I think we can begin to start integrating who we are as men.

And that is a process. I'll just put it that way. I was going to just say, I think just real quick, the enemy wants nothing more than to create distance between us and God and us and our spouse. Prayer is the one thing that draws us both to God and to our spouse at one time. That's the last thing the enemy wants is more men praying with their wives.

So it makes sense that it would be a battleground, right? We shouldn't be surprised by that. It's interesting, as you guys were talking, I was just thinking, when am I at my best at initiating prayer? And I think even guys listening to this, we are all in some sense professional ministers. We're vocational ministers where it becomes part of the expectation of our job. Most guys are not in roles like that.

They're businessmen, they're teaching, they're working construction or whatever. So prayer doesn't naturally pop up in those environments unless you've made that a part of who you are. So you're talking about integrating, Darren. I'm at my best with Amy when I'm already in the habit of talking to God through the day. And I go through seasons where I'm doing that really well, and I go through seasons where I get quiet between me and God. And so no one's going to make me take care of my own soul and make sure that I'm talking to Him. When I talk to Him as a way of being, it's much easier than to incorporate, hey, let's just talk to God together, Amy, about this or that or whatever. When I'm not in that habit or in that practice, it's like trying to start working out when you haven't worked out in a long time.

It's hard to get going again or trying to eat better, and you've been eating terrible for a long time. Man, there's this transition time. It's just going to hurt, but it's like I've got to do it if I want to get to this new place. I've got to push through and say, okay, Amy, let's pray. Let's talk to you. Let me ask you, on a scale of one to ten, where are you guys in this area? Right now.

Praying with your wife right now. What would you say? Ten being I'm doing really good, I'm great, one bad. I'm at 11.

In case you're wondering who said that, that's Mr. Goeys. Really? No, I'm not. I'm at a two or three. Again, I didn't know we were going to talk about this to this extent, but as I think about it, at this moment, and how am I rating myself?

I rate myself in two ways. When I think we should pray, am I actually executing praying or do I flee away from that? And am I making that just a regular thing that's happening? I'm not doing that very well right now. The reason I'm giving myself for a two or three is only because most of the time when I think we should pray about this, I'm making myself do it.

Does that make sense? When it crosses my mind, like grab her hand and pray or say, Amy, let's just talk to God for a second. Yeah, seize that moment.

Yeah, I'm saying yes to that more often than not, but we don't have anything regular built in. It's actually been bothering me a lot lately. Again, I don't know why we're camping on this right now. I guess that's why.

Let's talk about something else, man. Are you guys above a five, Darren and Brian? I was going to say I was about a five or six, maybe six, but even then, whenever you talk about prayer, I'm like, I'm just a three.

Why six though? What are you doing good? Well, because Viv and I, we haven't been doing this lately, but we go in seasons where we walk and we pray. It's like walking every day and we pray. In fact, yesterday, just yesterday, we talked about it. She said, I miss walking and praying together.

And I said, I do too. And so it's one of those things we like doing when we do it, and it's become a normal thing, but then we get busy and stop doing that. So I think what you said, I would give myself probably in this moment right now, I would say a five just because the last week, four or five, just because the last week we were doing too many different things.

Ships passing in the night. And I think what Darren said is key. When I'm doing well, when I would give myself, I'd never give myself like a nine or a ten. I'm always hard on myself.

I'm probably a six or a seven. But it's when I create the context that forces me to do what I don't feel like doing. Someone once said, it's easier to act your way into a new kind of feeling than to feel your way into a new kind of acting. I never feel like praying. I rarely do, rarely do. But if I act my way into that feeling, the feelings follow. And it's like giving yourself a context when we walk, we would pray.

For Jen and I, we bought these two chairs, these two recliners, and the Lord just said, hey, why don't you start praying? You know you've been needing to do this. You've been avoiding me. You've been avoiding her.

Start using these chairs. It was kind of a pattern interrupt. And I said, seven o'clock, before the kids get moving and get going, let's just pray before the day goes going. She had a list of stuff, and we would just pray through that list. So having something tangible helped me. That's good.

And I think for most men, if we don't have something tactile and if we don't have some plan, you know, the old adage, if you failed a plan, you plan to fail. So I think having that context and creating that context gets my number up a little bit more. Well, you guys know this. It doesn't matter what our number is. It only matters what she says our number is. That's what I was actually thinking. You should ask her how we do it.

Exactly. I do think, guys listening, ask your wife. Because I would tell you right now, the reason I asked you guys is, Ed, I think I'm where you are. I'm like a one.

Why is that? You guys know Ann. She's a 10 prayer warrior.

She is always, and I can't tell you how many times, I think I've gotten lazy. It's like, you know, like you just said, Ed, it's like, we should pray right now. And I don't. I let that moment pass and I'm just, I'm confessing right now. It's like, you know what?

I need to step up in this area. Not because it's going to make her feel loved and cherished. Although it will. Right. It's a guarantee.

It will. I'm not going to do it for that. But even if I wanted to love her, I should do it for that. Just to say, I want to love her. So step up.

It's almost like, dude, Dave, step up. We talked about it. I can do it publicly. And it's part of my job. I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to do it here on Family Life Today. Let's close in prayer, but I need to love her in our kitchen.

And I think Brian, you're right. And I would tell guys to do it. Figure out a way to do something tactile, whether it's a chair or a spot or a prayer journal or something, or a walk. I guarantee your wife would love to go on a walk and pray. Just on the way out the door.

I was going to say, again, that's just such a practical, that's probably as I think about it for myself. I think about that more often than not before I walk out this door, just turn to her because I usually get up and leave before she does. Just turn to her and pray.

Like it's that simple. Maybe just pray for her. Yeah, right. Or the kids or the day or God, just bless us today. Dave, you said this, help us.

It doesn't have to be super flowery. And I don't need to get overwhelmed at the thought that I don't know if I'm going to be able to sustain this for the rest of my life. And then I just don't do anything. It's like you have today. Do the right thing today.

Just take advantage of this day. Think about this. And I know you guys can see this vision. If men around the country, because of what we just talked about, start praying with their wives, it's going to change their home. I don't think we understand that as men.

If that one thing happens because they listen to this, they say, you know what, we're going to start praying together, whether it's every day or somewhat regularly, it will transform your marriage. And I think we as men think, no, no, I got to do this and this. No, this one thing could change everything.

It really could. And I just say a lot of guys right now are probably feeling guilty. They're probably feeling a sense of shame and that's the enemy. And my one caveat I think would be is listen to Jesus say, follow me. Follow me into a place that I know you don't feel comfortable. Follow me into a place that I know you don't feel confident and watch me work.

And if you fail tomorrow, favorite verse on manhood is in Proverbs where it talks about the righteous man falls down seven times, but he gets up. Get up. So let's just get up.

Try again. Let's go follow Jesus. I'm Shelby Abbott. You've been listening to Dave Wilson with Brian Goins, Ed Yuzinski and Darren Mabuni on Family Life Today. It's been a great conversation and I've been super encouraged by it. You know, around this season, we're starting to think about the spring and a lot of small groups start up in the spring, whether that be with ministry you're involved in or the church that you're at.

And if your small group could use something a little bit more inspired, I think we can help with that. If you're looking for a study that's connecting and thought-provoking, that has materials and discussions that make kind of everyone want to scoot forward and lean in with the kind of group conversation that leads to vulnerability, kind of like the vulnerability you heard in today's Men's Roundtable, the art of marriage is for you. So as soon as you press play on it, it generates a lot of just deeper knowledge of God and a deeper knowledge of each other because you're getting vulnerable with one another. We're going to talk about stuff that's relatable. It has relatable stories, spoken word poetry, vulnerability, as I mentioned, man-on-the-street interviews, helpful input from marriage experts, and stuff just like what you heard today. So if you're interested, you can go to the show notes or artofmarriage.com to learn more and grab your leader kit today. We're really excited to share the all-new art of marriage with you and hear stories of how it impacts your marriages.

If you know of anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you share it from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you're there, you can really help others learn more about family life today by leaving us a review. Now tomorrow, the whole group is back again for the Art of Marriage men's roundtable to talk about ways to love and cherish your wives spiritually. We could all use help with that, huh, man? That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.