Unexpected Jesus: Eric and Erikah Rivera

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And you can sign up in the show notes or on familylife.com slash coming soon. We hope you'll join us. Jesus meets us in our mess, and our mess could be regret, it could be doubt, it could be sorrow.

It could look a lot of different ways, but whatever it is, Jesus can meet us there. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott. Your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. So I don't know if I've told this story on Family Life Today.

I'll tell it really quick. One of my most memorable pastoral moments, a couple in my office saying they're going to get a divorce. And I'm just— Your office at church because you're a pastor. Yeah, and it was years ago. And I didn't know him, but as I got into it, there's, you know, she's doing this, he's doing that. It was just no hope, no—and I'm like, you guys are believers in Christ, right? Yeah, but it's not going to work.

We decided to divorce. I've never done this before. I get sort of frustrated with they just keep saying never, never. And I keep trying to give them hope. And they're like, so I literally stand on my chair.

I'm in a tiny little office, maybe 10 by 10, and I didn't yell, but I got pretty loud. I go, do you know that Jesus roasts from the dead? They just, they're looking up at me. They don't even respond because I'm sort of, it's like Jesus in the temple flipping the tables.

Like, Jesus roasts from the dead and he can raise your dead marriage to a new marriage. I'm telling you right now, don't quit. And then I sat down. I got real quiet. They just looked at me and they left.

And guess what? They didn't make it. But what made you stand on your chair? I just remember thinking they do not understand there's a Jesus that can meet them and heal this. And I know it's a lot of work, but I just got more frustrated, more frustrated, more frustrated. They weren't listening.

They weren't willing to. It was like there was no difference because of Jesus. And I just wanted to highlight that Jesus can make a difference. And the only reason I bring that up is we've got a couple in the studio today that wrote a book called Unexpected Jesus. And here's what made me think of it, how the resurrected Christ finds us, meets us and heals us. And that's what I was trying to communicate. He sees you.

He's going to meet you right here and heal your marriage. And we forget that we get so busy. We're raising our kids or we're in hectic jobs. And I think Dave, like maybe once a day we should have somebody stand on the chair like, do you know who he is? And I feel like with this book, we're going to talk about that. Yeah.

So we've got Eric and Erica Rivera in the studio. Welcome to Family Life Today. First time ever, right? It is our first time and we are super excited to be here with you guys, for real. Tell us a little bit about yourselves.

You're on this Weekend to Remember speaker team. We are. For how many years? Yeah. Since 2015, we got trained.

So you've been on almost eight years. Yeah. Yeah. We're still hoping they don't realize they asked the wrong people to join the team. We're still wondering why we're on it.

But no. Yeah. So we've been on the team since then. And it's been a real, real fun ride to speak with other couples and to be a blessing wherever we're at. So we love it.

We love being on the team. Erica, how long have you guys been married? 20 years. 20 years? 20 years. You don't look old enough to be married 20 years.

Thank you. Of course, you did start dating really young, right? We sure did.

We did. We started dating when we were 14 and 15. Now, you know, I asked Brian Goins and he said third grade. Is he lying?

For us? Freshman year. Freshman year of high school is when we met, started dating, whatever that meant as a 15 and 14 year old and did that for seven years until we got married. And now you have like a 15 year old, don't you? Yes.

We have a 15 year old daughter, 14 year old son and a 10 year old son. Wow. Yeah. And pastor, and you started the church?

Yeah. So back in 2013, God just put a very clear call on my wife and I to leave from our former church with their blessing to start a new church. In Chicago's northwest side. And so our church that we planted in 2013 is called The Brook. And we believe that Jesus wants to satisfy the thirst of people who are longing. And Jesus says, if anyone thirsts, let them come to me and drink. And so when we came to our neighborhood, we saw it as a thirsting community and we're just thrilled that the Lord would call us to be there to plant that church.

And it will be 10 years. So it's been a wild ride, beautiful ride. You guys, what did that calling look like? You said it was very clear. How did you know what was going on? Yeah, it wasn't clear at first.

That's for sure. We were very resistant at first because we loved our former church that we're a part of. We didn't want to leave. Were you on staff there? I was an associate pastor and I had been for almost five years at that point. And I grew up at that church and never known anything different. Absolutely.

Home, family, all of it. Yeah. And our denomination that we're a part of reached out to me saying that there was an opportunity to plant a church in the Montclair neighborhood of Chicago. And they said, it comes with a building and $60,000 in a bank account. Are you interested in a parsonage? What? Wait a minute, I'm a church planner. We never got it.

Are you serious? It's not fair, right? But we said no, because we're like, we love our church.

We love where we're at. And they said, would you at least pray about it? And, you know, as a pastor, you can never say no when someone asks you would you pray about it?

So I said, yeah. And then I did what a lot of us do. I didn't pray about it. And then the spirit convicted me and then Erica and I began to pray and the Lord began to shape our heart. We did a prayer walk in that community. And we looked around and we're seeing families, we're seeing kids. And it's really, it's only 15 minutes from where we grew up and just said, I believe God wants us to be here. We just didn't see many churches. There are about 50,000 people who live in a one mile radius of our church building. And yeah, at that point, it was very clear that this is where God wanted us. And so we were all in. God surrounded us with a great team of people, five people from our former church joining with us, and then some others that were part of the community already. And here we are, it's been really wonderful. How old were you guys when you took that big step?

32, 31. Really? Yeah, actually, looking back, it didn't make sense. And did you think like, oh, I always wanted to be a pastor's wife?

No, no. So in many ways, you know, I was pregnant with our third. I was homeschooling. And the thought of moving and leaving kind of what we knew, starting something new. And he was in school, felt daunting. It felt like, God, really? You're calling us to this right now? Were you getting your doctorate, Eric? I was, yeah.

So I was in the middle of... Wait, wait, wait, do we need to call you Dr. Eric? Maybe we should.

My students do, but you don't have to do. So, you know, I think it did not feel right. But what doesn't feel right necessarily doesn't mean that God is not calling and saying, give me your yes, in the midst of what feels like, how is this going to happen? And why are you calling us now? And when we look back, we see, God, you're so faithful.

You called us at the right time for this. And we got to embrace another family, group of people that otherwise would not know Jesus. Did you not even know the people that you started it with? No, not many of them know. I mean, there's probably about a dozen people we knew.

Yeah, we had one family from our former church that received the blessing to come with us, and then one single young man. And that was it. Yeah.

Yeah. How about pastoring and marriage? How'd that go for you guys? Because we almost lost our marriage. They're more spiritual than us.

Yeah, you're probably much better than us. But I mean, a lot of people don't understand it's really hard to do what you do and have a great marriage and family. I know that's true for a lot of vocations, but the pastor, it's really an interesting area to really have a great marriage. Did you ever struggle? Especially, he's getting his doctorate.

Yeah. You're pregnant with your third child. You had a lot going on. Well, my first semester of the PhD program, you know, I didn't step into it without Erica's blessing. You didn't even get a doctorate of ministry. You got a PhD. No, we're calling you doctor, dude.

That's a real doctor. You've earned it. So I'm finishing my first semester of coursework, and we were on the same page stepping into the school year. But about, you know, eight weeks, nine weeks, 10 weeks into the semester, she hasn't seen much of me.

I'm at the desk, I'm reading, I'm studying, and she's upset. And I'm like, hey, you agreed to this, you know? I signed up for this, but I didn't sign up for this, like the way it's turned out. And we learned a lot about each other because she just said, you know, I understand it's going to be hard, but if we could at least put a date on the calendar for us to go out, it doesn't matter if it's soon or far. I just have something to look forward to. And I learned, like, all you need is a date on the calendar, you know?

It could have avoided a lot of drama at this point. But that's really learning in pastoral ministry, school, family, how each of us feel loved and how to serve one another, because there are the pressures of pastoral ministry. There's the burdens of other couples you carry. You love people. You genuinely love them. So their thrills are your thrills, but their brokenness, it hurts.

It hurts. And so we've had to learn to walk together, but we realized the more we do ministry together, the more joyful it is. We're not in two separate tracks. We are linked up arm in arm as we're serving the church. That's something that I was going to say is that we learned that the more that we minister together, and we see this as God has called us to this, and we're a partner in this, we're thriving more. Our marriage is thriving more. And I feel like others are thriving more because of the way that we see ministry and we see life. And we're partnering together in our differences and our giftings. And even for us, joining the Family Life Speaker Team was a huge part of that as well. A learning curve as well as we're learning how to share ministry platforms together. I think I was grateful that we were still believed in after our first weekend for a member. We're like, well, that was a train wreck, but praise the Lord as his message goes forth. That's been the source of many conflicts, learning how to speak from the same set of notes and how to take turns at the stage.

Oh, yeah. Well, I think it's important to remember in marriage, you've made a covenant. You have a calling together. It may not even be ministry, but as you even said at the beginning, we've agreed to do this together.

And you need one another in it. I think our greatest joy, too, has been doing ministry together. And that's not because we're in ministry, but when we lead a Bible study on marriage or anything on Jesus, we're connected.

It brings us together. And I don't think people understand because they often feel disqualified because their marriage isn't what they think it should be. But none of us are exactly where we think we should be. Yes, and I think we didn't plan pastoral ministry, any of that.

We didn't either. You know, but I feel like it's the small yeses that we give to God that he begins to help us to see where he's calling us and giving us purpose in that. And so I'm grateful that we got our yes to things like Bible college when we felt called.

And I didn't understand, well, what am I going to do with Bible? Or, you know, after that one, Erica felt like, you know, I feel called to go to seminary. And so I said, OK, I'm going to give my yes to working full-time in this season. And just giving God our yeses in small ways, I'm grateful. We don't look back and regret the yeses that we give to God. That's good, Erica. Just the yes, like, have you been giving God your yes? Because that's scary sometimes.

Absolutely, yes. Talk about the unexpected Jesus concept. I mean, even as I started reading it, I know you've had issues in your marriage where you needed Jesus in an unexpected way to sort of show up.

So walk us through where this idea, what is this? Yeah, so several years ago, I was preparing through a sermon series that would take us from Easter out of Easter. And I began to study the resurrection appearances of Jesus.

And I was at a Starbucks at the Brickyard Mall by our house. And as I was there reading through the different resurrection appearances, I was blown away because I felt like I saw something that has never been pointed out to me. And it's the fact that every time Jesus appears to someone after His resurrection, He appears to them and offers them a question.

He gives them a question that relates to the circumstance that they're at at that moment. So, for example, Mary Magdalene is there at the tomb. She doesn't know it's empty.

She's preparing to put spices on His body. And Jesus says, woman, why are you weeping? Or He tells Peter, do you love Me? Or He says, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? And with all these resurrection appearances, there's a question. And right away, I thought, this is great. Jesus always asked questions in His ministry, but He's even doing so in His post-resurrection ministry.

And specifically, that these questions are directed to the situation, the circumstance that those people are at in that very moment. And that, to me, was really beautiful because it reminded me that Jesus meets us in our mess. And our mess could be regret, it could be doubt, it could be sorrow. It could look a lot of different ways, but whatever it is, Jesus can meet us there.

And so, after studying that, I thought, this is really special. So, I began to teach and preach it. And this would be really great to put in a book for me because I believe God's people everywhere need to be reminded that the same Jesus who met them still meets us today in our mess. Now, when you think about Jesus meeting you guys in your mess, what comes to mind? There's all kinds of messes. We still have. He's still meeting us in our messes. But there's one in particular that I highlighted in chapter 2 that had to do with Erika's health journey. And that was a mess that we didn't expect. It was something that we weren't prepared for, but it's something that God saw fit to bring us through. Several years ago, she began to feel various symptoms in her body that she knew things weren't right, like something was off.

And we were actually at a camp, speaking at a retreat. And when we got home, she just said, something's not right here. And so, immediately, she began to reach out to her doctor saying, I've got to make appointments. I've got to find out what's going on. And what happens in those situations, they put out a list of what it could be, and you have all the best-case scenarios. And then there's, you know, maybe a dozen or 30 things down the list where, okay, you don't want to get down to the bottom of that list. Oh, wait, Erika, were you scared as you see this list?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe one of the hardest things is you kind of know when you feel kind of in your soul, I think this is what it is. So, I really did think maybe I have multiple sclerosis.

Recently, there was a young woman in our church plant that we walked with her, who's, her mother was sick with MS and just really struggled with the disease very difficultly. And we were with her and her mother the day before her mother passed away in the hospital. And so, when we say that I knew that that was a possibility, that was the only thing that I could see as my future, my potential. And so, the fear was overwhelming. Was it?

And you had three kids by then? Yes. Yes, they're littles. And so, you know, also going through the symptoms, but not wanting them to know what we're going through, what I'm experiencing.

And yet at the same time, here's mommy in bed, and I can't do a whole lot right now. And so, I know that they're feeling kind of these things. And so, the weight of fear and anxiety of what is to come was kind of paralyzing at times.

Was it for you too, Eric? Yeah, it was terrifying. I mean, the thing that was scary was, again, just hoping it would be something else.

Yeah, at the top of the list. And they keep checking off, no, it's not this, it's not this. And, you know, at first, like, oh, maybe it's a vitamin deficiency, you know, or maybe it's whatever it might be. And right away, she thought, I think it's MS. And as the tests were going forward, we started realizing, OK, these options, none of them are what we want. And so, it was scary because you have those moments where, like, Lord, this is not what we wanted right now.

In particular, because Eric was in the middle of a MS attack and her body was responding in different ways. And so, there were days she'd be in bed or hours on end in bed. And so, I'd be with the kids and the kids are like, something's not right with mommy, you know. And our daughter, she was more perceptive. And so, I'm tucking them in at night, trying to show them everything's going to be all right. God's in control, yes.

So, in that sense, it's going to be all right. But I don't know what this is going to look like. And I remember even one day just tucking my daughter in bed.

And Erica had been in bed the whole day. I just went into the kitchen and just cried my eyes out and said, Lord, I don't know what to do. This is beyond us. And you didn't even have a diagnosis at this point? Not yet. But you're just living in the fear. Yeah.

But you cried out to Jesus. Yeah, absolutely. Because honestly, you know, these are those moments where we had nothing else. And we have a loving community around us.

We had support of people. But in that moment, it's you and the Lord and saying, God, either I'm going to run away from you or I'm going to run to you right now. And I'm thankful that the Spirit of God impressed upon us to lean into the Lord and not push him away. And that was something that really gave us peace, even though there were storms all around us. Erica, what were your prayers like at that time? Did you run toward Jesus or away?

Yeah, I ran toward him. You know, I had heard in my college years, you know how you hear a message and it kind of never goes away? Yeah. I had heard Jill Briscoe talk about being in the hospital with a woman who said, I don't feel God right now. I don't, I'm upset.

I'm frustrated. And she said that she took her by the hands and in that moment, she said, we can't rely on how we feel, but this is when we rely on our knowings. What do I know about God to be true? And so she began to say, tell me something that you know about God, even if you don't feel it right now, what do you know about God to be true? And so, you know, she started with God is faithful. And then she said, and I'll say something that I know to be true about God. And God is, God is here. God is with me.

And so they just went back and forth. And it was just that I feel like in that, that's what we need when we don't feel it. But we know that God's character is unchanging and he's trustworthy. Even if I can't feel it in the moment, that's what I'm going to rely on and just ask God that somehow that heart and head connection will match.

And so that that's kind of where I was. I don't necessarily know what's next, but I know that you're good. I'm going to trust you in the midst of what we don't see, because I know that you're already there. You're ahead and you love me, you love my kids, you love my husband more than I do.

This doesn't make sense and not what I want, but I'm going to trust you. That's kind of what my posture was. I think that was both of our postures and saying, we just want to do this together. We know kind of what it is to kind of walk through something difficult and like we drift a little bit more. That kind of happened early on in our marriage when we didn't grieve the same through a miscarriage. That was difficult and we kind of drifted and we didn't know how to kind of partner together in that and say, OK, we're going through this.

We're handling this grief differently. Let's come to the Lord with it. And so it's so interesting that the ways that God can use when we allow him the dark places.

And so that was kind of what my posture was. I'm thinking of there's probably so many listeners are in that space of not knowing something. When our kids have maybe walked away from Jesus or we're in the midst of not knowing a diagnosis yet or there's so many things we're waiting for. But I love that.

You know, what do we know about God that's really helpful? And it's pretty interesting that you said you went back and forth. Yeah.

I'm sitting over here going, oh, pickleball theology or tennis theology. Was that your friend you did that with? Well, no, this was always a message. But I feel I do that in my own to my own soul. You do. Who is God?

Yes. Who are you? And who am I? Because that's the foundation. So you know it in your head and you're reminding your heart. Oh, yeah. It's like your psalmist. Yeah. Right. He spoke to his soul. Well, he downcast on my soul. Yeah.

Hope in God. Yeah. That's good.

Yeah. I remember when I was in seminary, Ron Jensen, you probably don't know him. He was on the speaker team way back. He was president of our seminary. I remember him saying, I often when I get up in the morning and I'm in the shower, I will quote Psalm 103.

And it's like I quoted this way. Bless the Lord. Oh, my soul. He says, come on, soul. Bless the Lord. Let's go. Bless the Lord. So I'm like telling myself, let's go bless the Lord rather than just reading it.

It's like an inspiration to say, this is what I'm going to do today. So, you know, where we sort of left the story in terms of you're still in bed, you're taking care of the kids. How long did that season go? It felt like longer than it was. It was about a month and a half until we got a diagnosis.

In fact, the diagnosis came as she was getting MRIs done at a hospital nearby us. And by this point we had been dropping our kids off at people's houses while we went to doctor's appointments. And we said, you know, let's bring them with us.

It was Erica's birthday weekend and the kids and I had prepared a surprise little birthday gathering for Erica. We were going to wear black ties, white shirts, white glove kind of thing and serve them. Now bow ties, you're sort of a bow tie.

Yeah, that's right. I did have a bow tie ready for that one. And so we went to the hospital to get the MRIs done. And as we drove home, we pulled into the garage of our house when Erica got a call from her doctor. And her doctor said, Erica, we got the results and we're going to need to admit you tonight. We need to begin some steroid treatment. We found lesions on your brain and spine and we're going to need you to come back here.

And so I could kind of hear on the phone as Erica's listening what the doctor is saying. And of course at this point we're realizing, okay, this is our reality. And so all the thoughts are coming to our mind. I'm thinking, okay, I need to tell the kids we're canceling mommy's birthday party because mommy needs to go to the hospital to begin treatment. And that was pretty, pretty tough. And so we kind of took a deep breath like, all right, let's get in the house first.

And let's get that done. And it gets crazy because when you think about how challenging our lives can be and the challenges we face as couples, we walked to the back door of our house. And I remember the kids went ahead of us because we're kind of just talking what we're going to do. And the kids are looking at our back door like something's weird here. And I get to the back door of our house and I see our doorknob is bent and our door is slightly off the hinge. And so someone had tried to break into our home while we're at the hospital to get MRIs done. And at that point it's like, this is so diabolical, you know, like the enemy trying to attack us in the midst of what we're going through. So, you know, I searched the house, it's good. We all come inside and I'm like, the kids don't even know the party's canceled yet.

And they're already frantic because of the potential break-in. And so we just circled up and told the kids what was going on. And we're all in tears. But we just said, this is why we study the Bible. This is why we memorize the Bible.

And one of our favorite verses as a family is Isaiah 41, 10, which we circled up, held hands and said it together. Do not fear for I am with you. Do not be dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you.

I will help you. And I'll uphold you with my righteous right hand. And it was like, God was reminding us, like, I've got you guys. This is scary, but I've got you guys.

And that's where we had to cling in that moment of despair. There's a family listening right now that's in a valley. Maybe same valley, maybe totally different. What would you say to them? Because you've been through that valley. And that's like, it's not like you're out of it, but you've walked where maybe a family is right now.

Is there anything you would say to them? You know, valleys in life are inevitable. Suffering is something nobody on this planet can avoid. And the Rivera's are going to share their thoughts with you here in just a second. But first, I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Eric and Erika Rivera on Family Life Today. The Rivera's have written a book called Unexpected Jesus, How the Resurrected Christ Finds Us, Meets Us, and Heals Us. This is a really important book that explores how Jesus surprises us in unexpected places and offers guidance and healing amidst sorrows and uncertainties, which I know many of us go through, myself included. So you can get a copy of the Rivera's book at familylifetoday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Earlier this week, we had one of our favorite guests, Paul Miller, on the program. He's written a book called A Praying Church, Becoming a People of Hope in a Discouraging World. This book is going to be our gift to you when you partner with us financially.

So you can give online, get your copy of Paul Miller's A Praying Church at familylifetoday.com. Okay, if you're currently in a valley in life right now, maybe you're experiencing hardship and trials, the Rivera's want to share something specific with you. There's so many things that aren't promised to us that we can't cling to, right? We can't, we can't cling to healing on this side of heaven. We can't cling to the things that necessarily that we might want to have happen to be true, but we can cling to God. And he says that he wants to give us peace, that he wants to give us joy in the midst of what we're experiencing. And clinging to him really, truly does provide that for us. It doesn't always make sense. It's not always this beautiful, picturesque thing, but it is a firm foundation. He's worthy to be trusted.

And so I would say cling to him. Yeah, he's still working in the valley. He's still working even when we feel like there's a storm everywhere. Our life is a big mess. God is still working.

And the mess doesn't mean he doesn't love you, but he does love you. He is near you. He is with you.

And cling to him because he wants to meet you in that place. Coming up tomorrow, we're going to hear more from Eric and Erica Rivera as they share unexpected ways that Jesus transforms our lives in the midst of things like health issues, parenting, and education. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David and Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.