When the Worst Comes to Your Marriage: Howard and Danielle Taylor

The secret to me in a long marriage for us is it's not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers who's like the longest marriages you have, they forgiven more than a short marriage for sure. Right. Everybody needs space for grace. Your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com or on the Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. Come on. That's so nice of you. You are so gracious to me and to others.

Maybe not other drivers, but I mean... You're a dang-o in the same regard. That's hilarious. But no, I was thinking about it as we're going to talk about this, the fundamentals of marriage. When I was reading it, I'm like, I am married to the most loving, tender... What?

And again, it wasn't always that way. I was going to say, that's miraculous because I think I was the opposite when we first got married. I feel like I was super judgmental, but thank you.

That means a ton. No, I mean, I watch you as strangers and I watch you with our grandkids. It's just, I'm inspired. That's beautiful. That's amazing. You're so beautiful. And you're here, Howard and Danielle Taylor, who are in the studio. And I was reading your workbook...

Thank you for having me. Even last night, the fundamentals of marriage. Yes. And you talk about a grace-filled marriage and the four factors... We call it the forgiveness factors. Yeah, and that hit me yesterday when I was reading it and I thought, I just wanted to start today saying that. This is the best program ever. That's amazing. Yeah, well, Howard and Danielle, welcome back.

Thank you for having us. You are Marriage On Deck. Is it marriageondeck.com? Yeah, marriageondeck.com.

Is that where people can find you? Yeah. And so we've talked a little bit about your story, but even that, as you hear about the grace and the four factors...

I mean, you don't have to get right into those, but how important would you say that is to a marriage? Because even as I listened to you guys yesterday, I thought, you guys are really graceful people as well. Oh, so much so. Thank you. It's a representation of the gospel as you give grace to each other.

I watched it yesterday. It's really beautiful. Thank you, Jesus. I think grace, we talk to older marriage, we call them skyscraper couples, marriages that are 50 and 40 and even 30 years. This is us. We're skyscrapers. You guys are a skyscraper couple.

43 years. We look at you guys. Look at that.

40 stories tall. So when we talk to these couples, everybody always says, what's the secret? What's the secret? And I remember one lady, she stood out to me because she said, well, the secret to me in a long marriage for us is, it's not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers who's like, you learn how to forgive. The longest marriages you have, they forgiven more than a short marriage for sure.

Right. Everybody needs space for grace. And what we love about grace is it's an intentional thing. It's like a gift that we give. Sometimes when we ask for forgiveness and we say we're sorry, it's like pain.

It has a negative connotation. It's painful to have to forgive somebody that's harmed you. So when Danielle and I began in our marriage, Danielle would say, well, I look at you how Christ looks at you now.

Right. I needed my fair share of grace, but I see you through the eyes of how Christ sees you. And I began to return that to her. And when we thought about how Christ is, we are, we are messed up. Not just us, Adam, the children of Israel, everybody throughout the Bible really needed a great measure of grace.

And so it's almost appalling that I not be able to return. I'm so thankful that, you know, all of us are so grateful. Christ paid it all on Calvary. He did it all on Easter Sunday.

We're talking about that off air. But then when we get in the car with our spouse and they do something wrong, we're not willing to offer them that same Christlike sacrifice where he takes pleasure in gracing us and covering our sins. And, you know, it says love. It covers a multitude of sins. These type of things we begin to relish in because it makes us feel more Christ centered, more attached to the Savior that we serve. The reason why we call ourselves Christian, those things come in grace. And finally, there's a scripture that says everybody could love somebody that's good to them.

Yes. Everybody could do that. What effort does that take? But when Christ challenges us to do it, love those who despitefully use us, those who do wrong. And I could apply that to a coworker. It's very difficult to say that my wife is the one that despitefully used me in the season or my husband is the one that wronged me. And Christ is challenging us to love them through that season as well because we all know marriage has peaks and valleys.

I don't care who you are. That's right. Now, did you guys ever have, like we were joking earlier, there were seasons in our marriage where we weren't very grace giving. Oh, I was awful. For sure.

Have you had that? Absolutely. Absolutely. When we first got married, our communication was so, so, so, so bad. We were tearing each other apart.

We were, what did you say? Stabbing, using our words as a weapon? Yes. Yeah. Using our words as a weapon. Very short, judgmental, unrealistic expectations. Yes. All of those things. Absolutely.

As different things have come along. We've had like a failed business. You could easily play the blame game. You could easily play the blame game. We lost our child.

You could easily play the blame game there. A lot of people have fallen apart because of things like that, that yes, we've needed grace so much more, you know, probably more than ever during those times. Talk to us about walking through that valley with your child. Oh, it was such a sad situation.

So sad when I read that. When Howard and I got together, we were virgins for four years. We were college graduates, Christian. We just felt like we're doing this thing the right way. And God's going to bless us. And God's going to bless us. We deliberately held off for eight or nine years so that we can save up the money and just really bring this child in right.

So we felt like, oh, our measures of success and the works of what we're doing is going to make us exempt from any type of bad news. Fast forward. I go into labor early.

The baby is delivered. He lives for four days. And we're like, how early was he? This was not supposed to happen.

24 weeks. Right. Yeah, Danielle had an incompetent cervix.

Didn't know it. And so her cervix just stand out. And unfortunately, we found ourselves in a turbulent situation in the hospital one day with this baby that we had planned for, saved for, prayed for, had vision for, was coming. And we tried to pray it away and it wasn't going away. That baby was coming and he came and we tried to pray his life into longevity. That wasn't going to be the outcome. But that baby, we call him our angel baby, Harper, passed away and really threw us into a spiritual spiral. Yes.

For sure. What'd that look like? We felt like we started going to prayer pretty immediately after our chapel. Our church had a chapel that was open for prayer, but we just felt like God had abandoned us, had disappointed us, let us down. It's like, how could you do that to people that are doing it the right way? What kind of God would do that?

That's what I thought at the time, right? I'm like, Lord, I'm just laying it all out because you need to know, I mean, I know, you know, my thoughts and my heart, but you need to know, I need to say out loud. Howard felt like he couldn't hear from God.

He couldn't talk to God. Yeah, for me. So I was working at that time.

Danielle was off of work. And so I, it threw me into a spiral. I would say for the first time in my life, I didn't know what to say to God. And I didn't particularly feel like I was hearing from him anymore. I just was shocked. It was very silent, quiet season in that time. And I just remember just feeling like, you know, God, where are you?

What's the answers? Because I couldn't explain it. You know, I having such vision as a boy, I share with you guys on the last episode that I really was paramount to me to be a great father and be all that I didn't have. And so that caused me to do works as Danielle spoke to, to think I was going to get an outcome.

And that was a very immature perspective. But that was the perspective that I had is that I was just going to get this outcome. And I never forget, you know, which really could have went left. And I thank God for Danielle.

I thank God for Grace. Because when I left, we were going to see our son in NICU. And we would go and take our Bible into the natal intensive care unit and we would sit and pray next to his incubator and just call out every scripture for healing. And I remember going in on his last day. And when a baby leaves NICU, it's the graduation.

I remember a couple leaving out of there and a young man was talking harshly to his significant other. She's carrying this little baby out of NICU. He's cursing and he's angry. And it's just I'm looking at him like going out like, you're leaving with your baby. You're graduating NICU. That's a strange way to.

So here I go in Bible toting. And I'll tell you, we lost our child that day. So I couldn't reckon why he was leaving. He was our child. But God met us. God, you know, one of the things we did not thank God for this because we had a strong spiritual foundation. And we mentioned this, that strong spiritual foundation allowed Danielle and I to trust each other with prayer, trust each other with our sorrow. We didn't turn away from each other because we had prayed during our courtship and dating period. We had prayed through our eight years prior to having that boy. So when all we when we didn't know what to do, we almost by muscle memory leaned on each other in prayer. So when she was complaining, I would well, babe, the scripture when I'm complaining, like what is going on?

She's tapping into her scripture bank. And when we're just sorrowful and crying and sitting there in silence, we were living on this foundation. But God, but didn't know it. And so God eventually we're still just seeking him, even though we can't talk to him. And all of a sudden, one day it just clearly he spoke to Danielle and he spoke to me in different ways and explain.

I don't want to say explain to himself, but he was gracious enough to tell us why we were going to go through that season. And for me, it was from he led me to Revelation Chapter 12, where it talks about it's a beautiful story of Christ. And it talks about how the dragon was going to come and attack Christ and God took the child.

But in that scripture, we get Revelation 12, chapter 12, verse 11, where it talks about they overcome by the blood of the Lamb and words of our testimony. And by knowing that God sacrificed him, his son for us, he basically said, how I know exactly what you're going through, what you're going to. I've been touched in the same way that you've been touched.

And Harper ultimately is my child. And out of sovereignty, I protected you. I protect Dale for things you will not know. But ultimately, this testimony will be used to encourage others. And I trusted you guys.

There's another scripture in Job. He says, though he slayed me, yet will I trust him? Though you're slayed does not mean I don't have a plan. And so I'm sovereign.

Trust me. And I can reckon with that lady, God taking her baby and the dragon was there to attack that baby. And that scripture about we overcome by blood of the Lamb and the words of testimony immediately healed my heart. It's just so instantaneous because I felt like God can relate to what we were going through. And he had a plan for it. And he spoke to Danielle. What did that look like for you, Danielle? Well, when I was crying out to God saying, you know, you don't know how I feel, what type of God would do this? You say that you love me. How dare you? So you're expressing everything.

You're laying out. Yes. Leading up to this, I was one of those people that I felt like I couldn't sense God speaking.

I would hear people say it, but it's like, that's never happened. Is it audible? Is this?

Is it that? I would tell him. But when I was out praying at the chapel, God said what Howard said.

No, I do know how you feel. Like I lost my only son for you. Gave him.

Gave him. Yeah. For you.

For your sake. So I know how you feel and said some other things and reminded me about how busy I was and God trying to get my attention for things. But I was, like you said, making an idol out of my career, making an idol out of what I wanted to do at the time.

And so that day I felt like it was the first day I actually heard God speak to me, like in my spirit. But then I kept going to chapel and we decided after that, we're not having any kids. We tried.

It did not work out. It was so painful because even our families were impacted heavily. So we're like, this is too much for everybody. It's too much for us, for sure.

It's too much for everybody else. We tried it didn't work out. Let's just move on with our wonderful lives without any kids.

And so at chapel, probably maybe two weeks after all of this, God led me to Genesis. And he said, at this time next year, you have a son. I read it like, no. Yeah.

No way. So that was maybe October and we had a son the next year, October 21st. 21st. Yeah. Weston. Weston Harper Taylor.

Yes. But God did teach me about his sovereignty. He reminded me about, you know, your works are like filthy rags.

Just because you look good on paper does not determine like my hand. You know, I'm God. So I was like, oh, okay, got it. I'm always amazed as you're talking like that foundation. We've talked about that a lot in the last two days of being in God's Word, praying together, of knowing who he is and going back to the foundation. Had you not had that, if you guys didn't go to God, if you didn't pour out your heart, what would you be like right now?

You know, I just, I don't know if we would even be together, to be candidly honest. You know, grief is something. You know, grief is jarring in many ways. And what we found through coaching couples through grief, God's used our testimony to allow us to coach couples through grief, is when you go through grief, people want answers.

And a lot of the answers are explained. It's like, why do bad things happen to good people is what you often find through grief and mourning. And what we find is couples turn away from each other for those answers. And then couples do not depend. This is probably, I think, the biggest thing with spiritual foundation. They don't know each other spiritually enough to trust each other with their vulnerabilities. And so if Danielle and I had never prayed with each other, read scripture to understand that she studies her word and I study my word, you don't have the rapport to pull each other through those types of moments spiritually. And so sometimes we found that couples lean on the pastor and resent their husband because he doesn't empathize with the pain the way the pastor was able to, because they don't have any spiritual connection. My spiritual connection has always been with my under shepherd, the pastor, vice versa. They lean on coworkers. Well, she really gets my pain and she's there as a listening voice.

And my wife is just closed down and shut off at one time. So they begin to seek this spiritual connection and external influences that just brings a big crack in the foundation that turns into a valley in the foundation. They don't know how to find their way back. So prior to life happening, because life's going to happen to everybody, it's going to happen if you live long enough. Prior to that, it is critical that you begin to lay a solid foundation. It's building your house on rock so that when it gets windy and when the storms blow and when the rain hits for that was our storm.

And we've had plenty of them. You know how to put your raincoat on together. You know how to dig into the trenches. You know how to cover each other, even though the winds blow.

Why? Because you have a foundation that's built on rock. And if we had not had that, we would have been on sinking sand for sure. So from when we started dating at 18 and 19 and started praying, that saved us for 12 years later when we couldn't foresee we would lose our son. And so it's critical. It is not passive to think that you cannot pray, read the word, and build a spiritual, intimate connection.

It's critical. What about the couple who's never done that? And they've been married maybe 20 or 30 years, but they have never had that foundation. How do you coach couples?

Where do they start? Especially if one is like, hey, let's do this. And the other is like, wait, what? I think you should start by having that conversation about what levels of comfort you both have with praying. Because sometimes people don't want to, they're not comfortable praying out loud.

They're not comfortable talking about what their true prayer requests of their heart are. So I think talking about what they're comfortable with and then just starting with no pressure. It's just light and easy. It doesn't have to be significant. You don't need to use big words.

It doesn't have to be long and perfect. You just take time, take turns, maybe pray for me, I'll pray for you. Is there anything in your mind, anything bothering you? Do you mind if I pray? Getting that agreement with each other, like, hey, does this work for you? And even if the other person says I don't want to be a part of it, that doesn't mean the initial spouse can't pray for them. You can still pray in your quiet time alone. And I think over time that will encourage them. I think God will work on their heart and soften their heart to be part of it. And there's safety in the multitude of counselors. So get a mentorship couple, somebody that you admire, one of those skyscraper couples that we talk about. Hey, they can tune in and listen to you guys.

Let them, for sure, absolutely. And family life today. Bring resources into your life. The reason why our book is a workbook is because there's a lot of practical application things in that book to help you begin to introduce and take baby steps towards building on your communication, whether it's just life application studies, discussion questions.

They help you because building on any type of relationship, even if it's physical, starts with baby steps. It may just be, let's say, grace. You don't ever say grace. And that may grow into, well, let's just read a chapter of the Bible together. Let's read a scripture and talk about that scripture. What do you think about that scripture?

I don't know whether they're talking about that scripture. What do you think? And having these little conversations, they just build connection. You know, it's like if you want to introduce your wife to sports or your wife wants to introduce you to sewing or whatever it is. At first, it's like sports.

I don't ever watch sports. But it may just take one article or one story or one project to make the person start to empathize with. Well, I can see why you like that. And so just today I'll say it's really no pressure, but it really should be baby steps. Don't try to swallow the whole Bible and feel like you have to be a pastor or go to seminary. Pick a scripture and say, what does John 3.16 even mean to you? We both go to church, but what do you think about that scripture?

Do you even get it? I like that. I like the honesty of God. Is that something you guys do on a daily basis? I know you've got two boys.

You've got a busy life. Most couples, even in the church, don't do this. They may go to church together. Actually, the statistics say they go to church together maybe once a month. That's 1.3 times a month now is sort of normal for the average Christian couple in America. You guys are talking about something totally different than most couples do. So the baby step would look like what?

Because I know you guys what? You pray every day? You read the scripture every day?

Where would you tell a couple what's a baby step? Just maybe start praying? Yeah, start praying. Or like Howard said, just take one scripture.

Sign up for the Bible app. Yes. It's easy. It's easy.

They're applicable daily reading plans that people could hop on. That's not super, you know. Yeah, the Bible app. We're driving here today and Ann got on me because I'm ten days behind her in the Bible app. You can see it.

What great accountability. She's like, yeah, you should be up with me. And I'm like, you're so fast. I'm ten days behind. And I wanted to talk about Ruth. I read about Ruth and Boaz today. And she's like, yeah, that was ten days ago. I don't want to talk about it.

That was on the way in the studio today. I want to talk about David hiding from Saul. But I mean, that very conversation shows, you know, we're in the word. Absolutely. I mean, we're joking. We won't talk about it tonight. But that foundation, you call it the secret stability.

Secret stability. You have to be intentional about it. Yeah. So couples are very intentional.

I think about many. Sometimes you find that in marriage, you may need to be intentional about date night. We got jobs. We got careers. We have kids. So every other Friday, we're going on a date. Right. You may have to be intentional about finances. Hey, listen, we were trying to save X over X amount of time.

We're really going to have to not go to the movies as much. Right. Or whatever it is. There's intention there. And spiritual intimacy is the same. It comes from intention. And that intention may be that we're going to read the Book of Ruth. That's just Proverbs.

We always say it's a great one for any couple. So if you're listening, read the Book of Proverbs. There's 31 chapters.

There's typically 31 days in a month. And just go through one chapter. It's so much conventional wisdom in there. You will leave with something to talk about.

Every day. And you will also get every single day. And it's a, I would say, spiritually, it's a funner read. So if you're starting out in a foundation, you don't want to start out with the Book of Revelations.

Right. You may not want to start out with Deuteronomy. But Proverbs, I would challenge couples to take one Proverb and just read it. And don't feel like you got to even discuss it or exegete or any of that stuff. Just talk about it.

It's a top of the kind. Talk about it on a Friday night. Talk about it on a Monday morning on your way to work. You don't have to talk about it every day, per se. Sometimes that's intense for people.

You eat an elephant one bite at a time. Take your spiritual intimacy. And as you get excited about it, all of a sudden you'll start to realize that your husband and wife, you have a great perspective I didn't think about on the faith. And then you talk to your mentors about it and they may add some perspective on the faith. Or you hear that message on your Sunday that you go to once a month. And the pastor's talking about the same thing we're reading.

It excites you about your spiritual intimate growth. But it starts out as an infant. It's going to fall. You're going to crawl.

It's going to spit up sometimes like anything in life. So don't place teenager or adult expectations on an infant growth process for spiritual intimacy. And watch it blossom. And I would add, too, to pray, be honest with God.

You could say, God, we don't even know what we're doing. But we want to know you and we're going to do our best to get to know you. Help us.

And he meets us. It's just that relationship. Absolutely. All right, we're going to hear more from Anne and Howard here in just a second with some personal encouragement. But first, authenticity is the very best place to start when we're wrestling with our problems in life. I agree with Anne.

Just be super honest about who you are, how you're feeling, and what you're up against. And take all that mess to God. And you might think, that's not biblical. You don't think that's biblical? Read the Psalms.

They are the most honest reflection of what it's like to be a human being. Read that and know that God understands. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Howard and Danielle Taylor on Family Life Today. Howard and Danielle have written a book called The Fundamentals of Marriage, Eight Essential Practices of Successful Couples. So in that book, each chapter kind of presents a short reading, a personal reflection, some discussion questions, different perspectives, whether you're a husband or a wife, and then case studies highlighting real stories from real couples. You can pick up a copy of that book at familylifetoday.com, or you could give us a call at 800-358-6329.

Again, that number is 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And if you want to communicate with us via snail mail, feel free to drop us something in the mail at Family Life, 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida, 32832. We'd love to hear from you. Hey, I know that some of you have actually already been to A Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway, but we just wanted to make sure that you've heard there is a lot that has changed in The Weekend to Remember. We have a new speaker lineup, an entirely different guidebook, and so much of the getaway has been changed and intentionally curated for you and your spouse to grow together. So right now would be a good time to head back to A Weekend to Remember. And now through September 18th, registration is 50% off. You can find a date and location that works for you at weekendtoremember.com.

Again, that's weekendtoremember.com. Head over there and find a date that works for you and your spouse. The thing that's so compelling about you guys is there's such an intimacy in your relationship. And when I say that, I say that because I can see the foundation that you have laid and the spiritual intimacy you have has made you into this strong couple. It's really beautiful.

Thank you. And I love, I can see why God would call you to help couples. Because man, you have laid a great foundation and you're faithful. You know, you're praying, you're fasting. I want to be you guys.

We're going to be them, Dave. See how great she is? She's a grace filled person. I get it.

Yes. But then I just compared us. The kindest person I know. Yeah, I see that in Danielle as well. She's the kindest person. We were having that conversation yesterday.

So my nephew lives out here in Orlando and he has a little young lady he's talking to. And he was saying all these wonderful things about her, how she's the kindest person. I said, honestly, I met Danielle.

I told her she was the nicest person I've ever met. And here we are 22 years later. And she still is that. And that helps tremendously. Because as faithful as we try to do too much to give much to the choir, we go through a lot. And we learn to be candid about that. We're best friends first.

And so that really gives us a safety net about all. Marriage comes with so many, so many expectations that I think are more strenuous than a typical relationship. My best friend, we talk about my best friend, he could have a little bit of a temper problem. A lot of things that but I since I've been tension about him being my best friend when I grew up with him, he was OK with me. Danielle and marriage is defined as my best friend. I'm her best friend. And that gives us an additional space for grace that doesn't always come with my expectation of what she should be as a wife. Just as my best friend.

I'm I'm rocking with her as her best friend. She has been very gracious to me as an imperfect partner. There's nothing perfect about our partnership or marriage like any other couple.

I don't think that we're distinct in any type of way from what we fell short on couples. I know that our spiritual foundation and holding fast to Christ as the centerpiece of that intertwined between those things, which is why those three rings on our book cover intertwined. He's in our communication because he needs to be. He's in our bed because he needs to be. He's in our mind gates, our finances, because he needs to be.

Because if not, where will we be? Now, coming up next week, David and Wilson are going to be joined in the studio by Brian and Stephanie Carter. They're going to talk about the challenges of being a pastor's wife and the importance of the leave and cleave process in the marriage discussed along with the significance of prayer and facing challenges together. That's next week. We hope you'll join us on behalf of David and Wilson. I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.