Leaving Church: What’s Happening & What it Means for Parents

If you're between the ages of, I think it's 57 and 74, somewhere in there, if you're between those ages, you're a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you've experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian, in a way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don't experience.

The norm for God's people, the early church in the Roman Empire, the norm for God's church is to live in exile. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com or on the Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. So I sat with a father a couple years ago who, as he told me his story of his oldest son, he just began weeping. Because his son had walked away from the faith that he and his wife had tried instilling in them their whole life.

Man, his heart was just breaking. We've talked to many families and parents that it felt like, and we've watched them, like, man, you guys are great parents, you have done a great job, and it feels like they did everything right. And yet we still have kids that walk away from the faith. But as a parent, it shatters our hearts. Yeah, and we're living in a culture we've been talking about the last couple days that there's epidemic numbers of our kids walking away.

So we're going to wrap this whole three-day conversation with Mike Aitchison and Jim Davis back in the studio with us. They're both dads and pastors, and sort of, I don't know if you're world-renowned experts yet on this de-churching thing, but you're soon to be. But you've thought a lot about this. In the introduction of the book, we have a little spot where we talk about our lane. I'm not a scholar.

I am a pastor and a dad wanting to learn. I am a student here. And I guess the more we're students of something, maybe we'll have something to say. But I engage this whole conversation as a student. Yeah, well, that is interesting that you say you're a student, because really, as we've been listening to you guys the last couple days, I'm like, wow, you guys are scholars in this area. So I love the student learning perspective. But I'm guessing, and we've talked about this already, the dad part of you, the parent part of you is like enmeshed in the whole thing.

Because as you're reading and studying, you have to apply this to your homes. So again, we've talked already, but if you're me sitting with that dad who's weeping over his child walking away, what would you want to say? What do they need to know? I mean, the first thing I think about is that I don't know that won't be me one day. We do our best. We apply wisdom. And there's good biblical basis to apply wisdom in our parenting, but we are not our children's savior.

And we are not the Holy Spirit. If there's guilt there, maybe there's, I'm sure when my kids are in the house, there's some things that I will wish I had done differently. And I need to repent and feel the grace of Jesus Christ in that. And there are some things that I'll feel like, I did everything I knew how to do.

It's not ultimately up to us because it's not a formula. If there is guilt, that's what Jesus is here for. So maybe you did everything that, in my mind, you look like a great parent. I've learned from you, people I've learned from who have kids who are not following Jesus. I mean, that's one of the greatest heartaches, heartbreaks I could imagine.

And that's why I need Jesus. Those are the kind of things I would want to hear, I guess, is the way I'm hearing your question. And so those are the kinds of things that I would want to tell somebody else. I know when people ask, and they do a lot, hey, what's your best parenting piece of advice? Listen to Family Life Radio.

Yeah, listen to Family Life Radio. No, I mean, they're like, you wrote a parenting book, so what is it? And even the subtitle of our parenting book was The One Secret. And I would say the best piece of parenting advice I can give you is what you sort of said, Jim. Pray. Pray.

Because this is not a formula. You can read all the parenting books you want. It doesn't guarantee anything. Only God. Only the Gospel.

The miracle of God's Holy Spirit at work in your child is going to change their life regardless, and sometimes in spite of what you do as a parent. But, Mike, I mean, you've got four daughters. How does that resonate? Because they're still in your home. How old are the girls again?

Twelve, nine, seven, and four. So you've got like six years with your 12-year-old, maybe. I'm just, it's just painful. As a matter of fact, a neighbor walked by with their six-month-old daughter. I was that guy that said, enjoy her. No, you weren't. I can't believe I had a chance to say it. You're going to keep saying it, dude.

I'm telling you. I was meeting with a mentor that I respect dearly a few days ago, and he said, if you do all these things and your daughter's fill-in-the-blank da-da-da-da-da-da-da. He said, we'll be having another conversation. In other words, what he was driving me to do was gear my attention towards their well-being, make sure that they understand how much they matter, how significant they are. That is my job. He said, that may be your number one calling.

Everything else may just fall to the wayside. That may be what God created you to do. Make sure those four girls understand how much they love and how much Jesus loves them.

I cannot control the outcome. I have done everything I can to remind them that they were created in God's image. I even tell them things boldly like, I love you, but you have a heavenly Father who loves you more.

And that's right upon on the cusp of me failing and having to repent for something I did wrong. Yesterday, I had to put my hand on my oldest shoulder because we left the house, and she didn't grab her bag, and I had already said, hey, does everybody have everything? We had to go back in.

It frustrated me, and it bothered me all day. I said, here we go. I've got to humble myself in front of the kids once again. I said, I'm sorry for this morning. I'm not sorry for my words.

They're important to me because I want you to be responsible, but my tone was off. I was wrong. And she just looked at me. She said, that's OK. OK, I forgive it.

It's OK. I think sometimes as parents, we think we arrive. We think we arrive. That's why we don't repent. Kids remind us that we have not arrived. What I have found is the best thing I can do to communicate to my girls the gospel and that I love them and that the cross is big enough is by demonstrating that humility before them, not just do as I say, but say, oh, man, I know you hear me say this often, and I tell you all to do this often, but Daddy missed a mark today, and I really need your forgiveness.

I'm sorry. I just continue to see the impact of repentance, and then you get to dramatize just how significant the gospel is, because when they forgive you and they see the freedom with which you walk because of how big the cross is, then they're freed up to own their sin right before you when they mess up later on. I tell them, of course, how beautiful they are. So they hear from Dad, and so much so that when I tell them no, they say, I know. I'm like, okay, okay.

I tell them how intelligent they are and tell them all those things, just so they can hear from my mouth regularly and don't have to seek it in other places. That's good. I mean, Jim, you've got a 15-year-old, right?

I do. How's that hitting you? If Mike's got six years, you've got just a couple. Oh, man, I can remember when my older two were babies and think toddlers, and I remember thinking, in my pride and humor, I should write a parenting book.

That's what I thought. Fast forward to when they're just starting to hit double digits, and I told my wife I don't even want to give the parenting talk at a family life conference. I just feel so, so insufficient, which there's an aspect of that's good. Now, we're still called to do a lot of things and apply wisdom, but ultimately, we're asking God through praying, like you said, to open these kids' hearts.

So, we do what we can do, and now I'm in the next season of looking. We have our first college visit this summer, which is crazy. Speaking of college, I've talked to many parents, and I felt this. When they start going to a secular university, which two of our sons did, there's this fear in me, like, oh, are they going to lose their faith now?

Are they going to be pushed into, and maybe they'll become de-churched and leave the faith? But some of what you guys, what you've seen is even the data. It's different from some of the things we've heard before, that higher education, these kids do walk away. The data does not support that. So, this is kind of a boogeyman that secular higher education is taking our kids away. I don't see the data to support that. Ryan Burge is one of the people, you know, the guy who did our study, the primary person, he's done a lot of other things on this, and there are other people too, but all the data shows that the more education a Christian has, the more likely they are to continue in their faith. Now, the sociologists are beginning to ask why the data says that, but they're not asking that the data says that. The idea that secular education is consistently taking our kids away, secular higher education is not supported in the data. Hmm, which is interesting because I think often as parents we think, protect. Fear-based, I got to keep them in this little cocoon, whether it be church, school, and especially higher education, because if I let them out, that's what's going to happen, and that research says that's a false belief. Well, often those who are, I mean, this is just, we all knew this, if they're not prepared to go in the world, if we've hidden them from the world, they're not going to know how to interact in the world. And I can remember, I went to the Princeton of the Panhandle, Florida State, and I can remember as a freshman in orientation, some parent asked, what can I do to make sure my kid succeeds at Florida State? And the orientation director said, well, if you hadn't done it already, you can't do it.

I mean, it was like this. But I don't want to undermine the importance of the early years, but personally, having been through this research and these studies, and both of us gone to Division I public schools, I'm not scared of it. You can find ways to follow Jesus, you can find trouble.

It's not like you go in and there's only trouble. And our study also shows that the Christian students going to college, if they are involved in a church and a campus ministry, they are three times more likely to continue in their faith. Now, I have to say there's what's called selection bias there, because those who are already more likely to continue their faith are going to opt into those two things.

But even so, if a student is involved in a local church and campus crusade, the statistics say that is a good thing in the college years. Well, one of the things you write about, which I'd love to hear you discuss, is we need to, and I'm guessing as a family and as a church, as a community, embrace we're exiles. We live as exiles. And some of what we're talking about right now relates to that, because we're living in a world that thinks different than us, lives different than us, sort of thinks we're crazy, and we're trying to raise our kids in that. This is hard because we don't experience that at all.

So in our context, if you're between the ages of, I think it's 57 and 74, somewhere in there, if you're between those ages, you're a part of the most individualistic generation that has ever lived. And you've experienced the seat of power, likely as a Christian, in a way that Christians historically and even today in other parts of the world don't experience. If you go to the global east, some parts of the global south, you talk about Babylon, you could also go back to Abraham. I mean, the norm for God's people, the early church in the Roman Empire, the norm for God's church is to live in exile. And it doesn't mean that we have no influence, but it means that we exercise that influence from the margins. That would be the norm, not the seat of power. And I would go so far, this might be a little bit controversial, I would go so far as to say when Christians have the seat of power, that has not always meant that things are going to go well. In season two of the podcast, we talked about the ways that evangelicalism and the whole Christian church in America can learn from the historic black church because they have found ways to exercise influence from the margins.

But I feel like that's what we're walking into. I'm not saying it's comfortable, but I'm saying that's the norm for God's people and that there are blessings in it. I remember hearing an interview with a woman from Iraq. She was born there Muslim, converted to Christianity, loved Jesus, was being persecuted every day for her faith, was risking her life every day to even name the name of Jesus, and her family wanted to kill her. She said the goal of every believer in the Middle East was to get to America to be free, to be able to exercise your belief in a way in your faith. And she told her husband after living here two years in the United States, I've fallen asleep. I've fallen asleep.

I feel like I need to go back. And that's the danger of living in, as you said, that seat of power in our faith. But if you've only known that, so she had the opposite, but if we've only known that, that's a scary future to walk into. I made the comment a few years back, and I did not think, I didn't anticipate to be controversial, or I would have had a little more of a pastoral moment in it. But I said, I bet if I'm, God willing, able to be at Orlando Grace Church for the next 20 years, a large part of my ministry is going to be walking with white Christians through the loss of power in our society.

I think that's the cultural moment we're in, and I also think that's the norm for God's people, and that there are blessings in it. You all have somebody on the executive team here, Greg Lillestrand, who had told me a story years ago. He was behind the Iron Curtain. His team couldn't find food, so they split up, and he was with a Christian in this part of, I think I remember what it was, but I don't want to say the wrong country, so I won't say it. But finally, after searching for all day, they found a sack of potatoes to be able to feed their team, and Greg looked at this Christian in this country and said, how do you do it? How do you follow Jesus when you have no authority or power or freedom or any of these things?

And this Christian from behind the Iron Curtain looked back at Greg and said, how do you do it? Jesus is all I have every day. You have all these other things that you can run to for comfort and entertainment and satisfaction. And so I think that really supports you.

Well, here's the question. How do we bring that nature, that exilic nature, where exile's into our homes? Well, I think we need to start with what are the positives of living as exile for us, because we don't know that for us and don't believe it for our own spiritual lives. You're telling me there's positives?

Because everybody's saying, no, there aren't, but there aren't. I mean, if you go back, you can see exile all over the Bible, but in the book, we walk through Acts chapter two, and we get to see a picture of the early church living in exile and that there are blessings in the way, because they are sent out of Jerusalem through persecution, the gospel advances in ways that it wouldn't otherwise. We see benefits like these Jewish people from Jerusalem who had been at the seat of power, their idols of power are confronted in their exile, and then their identity is formed more in Christ, not a coincidence, I don't think, that's the first place they were called Christians, because in exile, we need the Lord more. As we've been talking about, we depend on the Lord more.

It shows us our newer and better identity. It requires discipleship, which is a major thing that I think is lacking in the church today, is we entertain people, and we just want to draw people in, but where is the real deep discipleship? And in exile, we know, I have to disciple these kids, we have to have discipleship in our church, and so it causes us to think about discipleship differently.

I remember somebody interviewing Tim Keller and asking, I think it was he and Kathy, about what are the best parenting tactics that you have for us, and they both said one of the best things was Tim going to breakfast once a week with one of their boys, and that was a part of their discipleship process. So there are benefits, but more than anything, I think the fuel to living as an exile is knowing that's exactly what Jesus did to reach us. He left the comfort and the power and the glory of heaven to come here as an exile, taking on flesh. He is literally God, and he has no place to lay his head, no place to call home in his earthly ministry.

He's exiled onto the cross, not just to die a horrible death, but to receive the wrath of God that our sin deserves. There has never been a greater exile than Jesus, and you look at the good that came from him embracing exile for us, that can be the fuel to understand truly, exile's the design. This world is not our home. This is not our, our citizenship is not here. Whether we're in the 50s, 60s, 20, 30s, whatever, this is not our home, and the more we feel that, I'm convinced will be good for us and our churches and our families.

In you, Teshaun and Jim. He was exiled from his home so that we would inherit the home that he prepared for us, and exile helps set us free from longings that are misplaced for this life. The world as it is now is not our final resting place, and I think of Peter opening up to the exiles, and then he proceeds to talk about the inheritance that we have that's imperishable, undefiled, stored up for us in heaven. It's principally stored up, and it's actually stored up, kept hidden in Christ, and when Christ returns, it was our life.

There will be with him. We will inherit that for which we truly long, and the home that can only truly satisfy us. We have, I think it was Soon-Cha-Ra, who talked about our captivity to certain things of this life, whether it's politics, you know, whether it's sports, whether it's the American dream, all things that are good, but we cling too tightly to this life, and exile helps remind us that something better exists. This is inspiring me in some way, because I'm thinking one of the ways to live as an exile, and I'm not saying we did this right. Actually, Anne did this really good.

She modeled this, is take risks as a family, and I'm thinking primarily in the area of evangelism, in the area of loving your neighbor. I mean, literally, your next-door neighbor. Take a risk.

That's sort of like living as an exile. I'm going to go over and share something with somebody I know they don't believe this. That's scary.

That's awkward. It encourages your own faith. I've never once gone out to share my faith, like intentionally, like been sent out, and come back depressed.

I come back, even if they say, I don't believe any of this, you're crazy, you come back energized. My first ever crew meeting in college, I'd just come to Christ. I go to, they call it prime time, and my discipler, I had a guy who discipled me, who was an athlete, and said, God has called me to minister to athletes, and I literally, under my breath, laugh like, this dude will never minister to athletes.

He reached like 50 of my teammates, but long story short, Bill says, meet me Tuesday night. It's called prime time. I go to this thing, I sit in the back. I never, I'm a new Christian. I never grew up in a church. I'd never been in one of these things.

They sing some songs, which I didn't even know what they were. Guy gets up, you won't believe this. First time ever at a Christian campus meeting, he goes, here's what we're doing tonight. We're pairing up on twos, and we're going to the campus and sharing the gospel.

He goes, pair up with people, and then we'll come back in an hour and share stories. And I literally exit. I'm like, I'm out. And I walk out of this dormitory lobby, and I'm outside the building, like I'm going back to my dorm room. I am not doing this.

This is weird. And Bill goes, hey, Dave, Dave, Dave. You know, he's the only guy I knew. I go, what? He goes, let's go. I go, Bill, this isn't what I do. He goes, no, I'll do it. You just watch.

You pray and watch. Long story short, first guy we talked to, some kid freshman in a room, and Bill's sharing the gospel, and I'm sitting over there watching, and I've never done this in my life, and I'll never forget this. This guy looks over at me, sitting on this other bed. He goes, hey, I know you. I go, no, we never met. Hey, aren't you the quarterback of our football team? Aren't you Dave Wilson? I go, I literally go, nope, not me.

I lied. Because that's where I was. I did not want to be identified with Christ.

You were one of those with Jesus. Exactly. With the rooster crows. Exactly, and Bill just laughed.

He thinks I'm joking. He goes, oh, yeah, that's David quarterback. That's where I was. I'll never forget. We come back. Everybody starts sharing these stories. My faith starts a journey. There is something about as a mom or dad saying, kids, let's go across the street. Let's invite our neighbors over. It's all about this. Let's love them. Let's share the gospel.

There's going to be an opportunity we can share. Don't you think there's something to that, to breathe in life into your family because you're taking risks as an exile in a culture that doesn't agree with what you believe, but you're going to be awkward, uncomfortable, but you're going to go there, and that's going to breathe life in your family? Am I right?

I think you're 100% right. I mean, it makes me think when God spoke to Jeremiah about a people that were going to be in exile in Babylon, he says to the exiles through Jeremiah, seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile. So God's saying, I've sent you into exile. Seek the welfare of that city while you're there. Pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare, you will find your welfare. So we are supposed to be for the place we're in.

It's hard. Like I'm thankful that I can vote to make sure certain things happen and don't happen, but whether it's going our way or not, we are here since as Christians for the welfare of where we are, and there is no greater welfare than knowing Christ. And so you can see ways that that happened in the early church, and Rodney Stark's, of course, famous book now on the rise of Christianity. Christians were doing things like bringing sick babies in and helping people and sharing their faith along the way. So I think what you're saying has historically been true for God's people and is as true now as it ever has been. I like that, loving audaciously as a family with the intent of bringing the gospel to people. It's beautiful. How about today? . In your community's welfare, you will find welfare. So plugging into your environment and becoming a part of the solution by loving them with the gospel is such an important part of what it means to be a follower of Christ.

I love this time today. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Jim Davis and Michael Acheson on Family Life Today. Jim has written a book called The Great Decherching. Who's leaving? Why are they going?

And what will it take to bring them back? Super important questions that Jim addresses in this book. You can pick up a copy of that book at familylifetoday.com, or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. And as we wind down in the month of August here, school is ramping up. Things are changing. We're transitioning from summertime into the fall. And August is such a unique time, especially for us here at Family Life, because when you partner with us and give, we're going to send you Family Life's Art of Parenting online video course along with a fun card game called Ferret Flush as our thank you.

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