The Word before Work: Jordan Raynor

On the new earth, we're going to be working and we're going to long enjoy the work of our hands. So is it possible to grow in your love of the work? Yes.

I think that looks different for different people. I think it's why we get to try a lot of different things to find the thing that God made us to do exceptionally well in service of others. And when you find that as you get good at the thing, right, whatever that thing is, passion grows alongside of it. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson.

You can find us at familylifetoday.com or on the Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. So I didn't know it when we got married, but I married a worker. I sort of knew. But man, oh, man, you woman, you can work. It's irritating, isn't it? No, it's awesome. I mean, there are times it's irritating, especially when you're pushing me to work harder.

But I did not know. It's like you love it. I do love it.

You do. It feels like therapy to me. People bring me energy. But even just manual labor is like, oh, this just feels so good.

My problem is I want my kids and wanted our kids to have that same attitude. Like we get to work today. And so when they had the attitude of, oh, do we have to do this? It's so dumb.

You know, I'd be like, are you kidding? We get to do this. I was so annoying.

Yeah. And you want your husband to do the same thing. You're a hard worker, too. Yeah, but not like you. But we got Jordan Rayner back with us today to talk about work, because not only you're the worker, man. I never watched you like work except here in the studio, but I can imagine you're a lot like Ann. You attack work. Am I right, Jordan? Engage. Attack. Engage. Engage is a better word.

That's what I thought. So we're going to talk a little bit today about your book, The Word Before Work. Which is a devotional.

And I love that. Tell us just a little. It's only Monday through Friday. He lets them have Saturday and Sunday off.

I can do some Slack, because I know you're all like, no, I'm just kidding. Why Monday through Friday? Because, listen, hopefully most of our listeners are spending time in the Word in general daily, applying the Gospel to our lives, renewing our minds as we live in this increasingly post-Christian culture. But, man, I think we've got to be renewing our minds with God's Word specifically as it relates to our work, if we're working outside the four walls of the church. And so that's what this devotional is designed to do five days a week, Monday through Friday, in two minutes, with a little bit of scripture, a little bit of exposition, and some really practical takeaways. Just take God's Word and apply it to what you're doing, whether you're an entrepreneur, a barista, a stay-at-home parent, a bus driver, whatever it is. And, Jordan, share a little bit about what you do. I feel called to really help Christians connect the Gospel to their work in a bunch of different forms. This devotional is one expression of that, so that takes the form of books and podcasts and speaking. But I feel very called by God to take this never-ending topic, this inexhaustible topic of how God's Word applies to our vocations and help people do that in a more faithful way, so that we can be more joyful in the work, more purposeful, and more faithful to Christ and His commands and His mission in the world. You're in for a treat, because Jordan brings energy and passion. To his work! And if you feel bored and unmotivated in your job, you've just stepped into the right place and what to listen to.

Yeah, so here's my question, Jordan. If you're like Ann, you've fired people that don't work well. I mean, I watched her fire our boys every week. You're fired! You know, because they weren't excited about the work, and they're dragging.

We have one son, because we did lawns, you know, we had a lawn business, and then we had a deck finishing business. And so this one son would always just drag the tools. He'd drag them behind, you know, and I'm like, come on guys, let's have a good attitude. And by the end of the day, it's like, you're fired!

I would fire you! Because it seemed like he was lazy to me. And I was very poor in helping them to have a good attitude, because all I did was judge them, and it was terrible. But it must have worked.

He's a really hard worker. Not because of me. In spite of me. By God's grace. Yes, by God's grace. But I mean, have you ever felt that same thing? Because, you know, you have this perspective. This is holy work.

Even a yard job is holy work. You have three children. I do.

And so, I mean, this is your passion. I haven't fired them yet. No, I haven't fired them yet. That's because they're young. How old are they?

I'm thinking they're eight, six, and three. And the eight-year-old is doing work with me, which I love. That's so fun.

But no, I'm thinking a lot about this. I'm thinking a lot about how to get my kids to see a biblical vision of work, and it's coming to drips and drabs. You guys know I published this children's book called The Creator in You.

It's so good. Oh, thank you. It's this first seed here, just trying to get kids to see the original intent of work, that work was God's first gift to humankind, that this sixth day, contrary to how most of us preach it and teach in our children's books, was not the end of creation. It was the beginning. It's when God passed the baton to us and told us to create like him, right? So I'm trying to plant that idea in their minds at a really early age, but also have a lot of grace with them, recognizing that, you know, we live in a fallen world and not everyone loves their work.

That's a result of the fall of Genesis 3 and just having grace with them and my employees the way that my Heavenly Father has grace with me. I have to share this story because this is something that I did very poorly. This son that I would always fire, he just, he liked doing things and working his own way.

And I didn't recognize that. I thought it should be done this way, my way, instead of really understanding his personality and his bent. So this one day, he's a teenager, so our house was toilet papered by his friends. So I said, guys, you need to go outside and pick up the toilet paper, you know, and I give him a trash bag. Well, he's not doing it for hours.

And I come out. I'm like, what are you doing? Like, this should be done by now. And he has taken a broom handle and he's taken the broom off and he's gone into the house to get a kebab skewer.

And now he's taken duct tape and he's duct taped it onto the handle of the broom so that he can take this new device and poke it and lift it up to put it in the garbage bag. And I'm thinking, you're taking more time, you could have been done by now. But now he's created this, to him it's like, look at what I have created. And I wish I could have celebrated how we work in a different manner instead of expecting it all to look the same.

Man, that's a challenge for me. I think I would have done exactly the same thing you do. But no, but this is a really good example of a practical outwork and of applying the Word to your work. When I look in Scripture and I'm reminded in Genesis, I bet Adam and Eve worked differently.

I bet they had different working styles. God has created each of us uniquely. And that means we're all going to work uniquely. And yes, that's going to frustrate us under the fall in a post-Genesis 3 world. But to be able to see that there's creational goodness there, right? Like, God created us to be good. There is a way that he has hardwired us to work.

And so if he created my kids that way, there's something good in there that I need to celebrate, right? Which is very hard. I'm preaching to myself. This is not easy. Yeah, but it's pretty interesting, that same son. I mean, he's very techie, and now he works in the tech world. If you put anything in front of him that's tech-related, he will outwork everybody.

Hours to make sure this, you know, I can wire this thing this way. But I remember when he was in high school, one of the guys that did cement at my church hired him for the summer. And after one week, Ron came to me, and he's blue-collar, dude. This guy's a worker.

He's awesome. And he goes, dude, your kid doesn't know how to work. I go, what? And I'm like, see, I told you.

Yeah, and Ann's like, I fired him 100 times. He goes, yeah, dude, he just doesn't have it. And I go, Ron, you have my permission. Make him a worker. And he goes, are you serious? He goes, I thought you were going to say don't push my boy. I go, no, push him, man.

I've tried. You know, he's a good kid, but maybe you're the – and you know what? Like, at the end of the summer, he comes to me and goes, your dude can work. I go, what? He goes, I made him a worker. That's awesome.

I'm tearing up because, you know, in some ways God brings other people sometimes around your kids. And I mean, CJ is an incredible worker. Oh, yeah. I mean, I owe to Ron Paulsell, this cement guy that taught my boy how to work. Wait, you're not giving me any credit? Oh, yeah, Ann gets credit, too.

It definitely wasn't me. But, you know, as you think about that, is that something we can grow into, becoming a better worker? Oh, no doubt. Yeah. Listen, we believe we're all in this journey to our future glorified selves, right? It's the process of sanctification on the new earth. We're going to be working, and we're going to long enjoy the work of our hands. So is it possible to grow in your love of the work? Yes.

Right? Like, I think biblically we could say that pretty definitively. I think that looks different for different people. I think it's why we got to try a lot of different things to find the thing that God made us to do exceptionally well in service of others. And when you find that and when you actually really good scientific data is coming out now that says as you get good at the thing, right, whatever that thing is, passion grows alongside of it.

We have this backwards in our culture. We think you start with passion, right? You find the thing you're passionate about, and then you go do it, and you're immediately happy.

It's not how it works. You get to love what you do by getting really good at it, which shouldn't surprise Christians because we model the one who came to serve not to be served. Jesus served us.

And as we serve others through the ministry of excellence, our love of the craft grows alongside of it. Hey, talk about the who of work. Because I know as a preacher, there have been times when I talk about work from the pulpit. And over 30 years, I bet I've said this multiple times, either on stage, but especially privately with a businessman. I said, man, I'm jealous of what you get to do every day.

And they look at me like, what? I'm jealous of what you get to do today. You know, you work for God. And I'm like, yeah, but every day you get to go to an office or whatever you do. And you're around people that are far from God, and you're strategically placed there by God to reach them and make disciples where you are.

I got to work with Christians all day. That's pretty boring. I'm kidding. But, you know, they think they want my life.

And I'm like, no, I want your life because you get the who part. I mean, what we do is important. I'm not saying it isn't. But who we get to do it with is probably more important because that's where we get to lead people to Jesus. A hundred percent. This theologian, Michael Green, did this terrific study, found that 80 percent of evangelism in the early church, first three centuries, happened not through pastors and religious professionals. It happened through mere Christians going to work as shepherds and as tentmakers.

And guess what? That's what's happening right now in this post-Christian cultural context, right? We are the church.

We are going to be the hands of the baristas and accountants and entrepreneurs and chefs. They're going to make disciples. I talk about this in the Word Before Work, but just I've interviewed a lot of people on how to do this effectively in a post-Christian context that doesn't require putting tracts in the breakout room. OK, I think we all know that's not effective, right? Isn't that the Jesus loves you belt buckle? I don't think that's it.

It could be it for you, Dave. But let me just give five things real practically for our listeners to do if they want to make disciples at work. Number one, be so good they can't ignore you. First Thessalonians 4, Paul calls us to win the respect of outsiders.

Guess what? Mediocrity doesn't win the respect of outsiders in our current cultural climate. Mastery does. I mean, that is such an important thought because often we think it's the tract.

It's not cursing ever. And again, those are good things. Just work unto the Lord and people will notice.

There's a reason why I put this first. And you use the word mastery. What's that mean? I don't know that we can really nail down a definition of this, but it's being so good they can't ignore you. It's being so good at your craft that you're invited to the meetings. Everyone wants you in the room because they know that you're making the place of work better. So that's number one. Number two, don't just be so good they can't ignore you in your skills.

Be a friend. Be the person in your office that cares about people beyond their productivity. Number three, at some point you got to identify yourself as a Christian.

You can't just be good at what you do. At some point you have to raise your hand and say, I'm a follower of Jesus if you want other people to follow Jesus, right? Then number four, I think you just got to pray a lot for the Lord to open up doors, to move conversations from the surface to the serious to the spiritual with people. He's the only one who can open those doors.

We can't pry them open, right? And then finally, number five, straight from 1 Peter 3, we just got to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that's within us. And I think that includes the personal reasons, right? Our testimony, but also our universal reasons, right?

In our increasingly post-Christian culture, we got to be brushed up on apologetics and be able to defend the very rigorous intellectual and historical case for Christ, right? And so those five things are a really good starting point. We can go deeper into that if you want. But in the people that I've interviewed who are disciple-making machines in the workplace, those are the five common things I see them do.

You know, it's interesting. When you were reading those, I think about, remember I said yesterday, I'd give this message every year to the Detroit Lions players about how to work. I had three I's.

I'm a preacher. They got to be I's. They're S's. They're T's. And so I said, if you want to work unto the Lord, intensity, integrity, intentionality.

You just said all of them. Like, your intensity should be, I'm going to do my work as excellent as ever. Integrity means I'm so trustworthy. They know.

Everybody in that locker room knows that man can be trusted. And intentionality is, I'm not just working. I've got to be intentional about who I'm working for and make that known at every opportunity is an intentional moment to say, I'm going to give glory to God and lead people to Christ. That's what you just said. Absolutely. Yesterday, we talked about how the Great Commission isn't the only commission.

But it is a commission, right? And one of my favorite stories about intentionality and making disciples comes from William Wilberforce. If our listeners don't know, Wilberforce is most famous for basically getting the credit for abolishing the slave trade throughout the British Empire.

No big deal. What a lot of people don't know is that when Wilberforce entered the British Parliament in the 1700s, there were only a handful of serious Christians in Parliament. And by the time he left, there were about 250.

And a lot of historians credit Wilberforce. And he had this genius, simple tool to aid his intentionality. It was a little journal that he called his list of launchers. And so it was basically just a list of people's names. So it's a Dave, right? And next to Dave's name, a list of topics that would launch that conversation from the surface to the serious, to the spiritual.

So there's one example is like S and Mrs. Ask them what books they're reading. Ask them about the education of their children and whether or not they talk about faith at home.

Invite them to church on Sunday to hear Reverend Venn or whatever it was. I can't remember this guy's name, but just little prompts. And I've been doing this for about a year now and it has been a game changer. So, for example, before I go into my haircut with my hairdresser, Melanie, I'll just take a real quick look at what I wrote down from our last conversation of where we left off. One bullet, two bullet of ideas that I can easily memorize before I go into that.

And just make sure I'm intentional about taking that conversation somewhere so we're not just talking about sports and kids the whole time. It's a game changer. It was a game changer for Wilberforce. It's been a game changer for me. That is so good.

I've never heard that about Wilberforce. Oh, that's beautiful. You shared a story with us at lunch, and I know we're going to tie this into this work in your devotional, but share the story with our listeners about Sixto. Sixto Rodriguez. So we were talking about this because you guys are from Detroit. He must be a neighbor. He must be a neighbor. He's still living there to the best of my knowledge. It's a great story about the eternal significance of your work.

You'll see it in a second. So back in the 70s, there's this Mexican-American musician living in Detroit named Sixto Rodriguez. And everybody thought he was going to be the next big thing. I mean, he worked with the top producers in the world. People who produced Michael Jackson and Ringo Starr.

These guys said that Bob Dylan was mild compared to Sixto Rodriguez. So they record this album called Cold Fact, right? They release it, and it totally, utterly bombs. Like, there's this great documentary called Searching for Sugarman. They ask one of the producers, how many copies of this record did it sell? They're like, I don't know, in America? Like, six?

Something like that? Well, one of those quote-unquote six people took the record from Detroit on a plane to this far-off land of South Africa, right? And she gets off the plane, she starts playing it for friends, and they're obsessed with it. Problem is, you can't buy the record because it didn't sell anywhere. So they just start bootlegging the record, right? And soon it's, like, everywhere. Within a year or two, it was everywhere over South Africa.

They actually start selling it in stores, and somehow it's very shady. Somehow the royalties got lost in translation from the record label in South Africa, Detroit. The point is, for 30 years, Sixto Rodriguez had no idea that he was bigger than the Beatles. He was bigger than the Rolling Stones. He was bigger than Elvis Presley in South Africa.

That's big. So he's staying in Detroit. He's working manual labor. He's dirt poor.

They live in 26 homes in 25 years. And then, out of nowhere, he gets a phone call one day. Some people in South Africa tracked him down.

They finally found this guy. And they call him up and they say, is this Sixto Rodriguez? He says yes. He says, do you know the impact that you've had in South Africa? He's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. For the last 30 years in South Africa, you have been a bigger star than Elvis Presley. And he was just pulled over.

Like, he could not believe it. And I think there's a beautiful application for believers here, right? We talked about this yesterday in Psalm 37 23, that the Lord delights in every detail of our lives. I think most of us are going to work every day having no idea about the impact that our work has in the seemingly distant, unseen land called the Kingdom of Heaven, not South Africa, right? But Psalm 37 23 says God delights in every detail of our lives, right?

His pleasure is eternal. And if that's true, then everything we do today with excellence and love and in accordance with God's commands is literally shaping eternity. I think it's going to shape the interactions we have with the risen Christ on the new earth.

I think Jesus is going to come up to you when you're, I don't know, plowing a garden or building a great city on the new earth. He's going to say, Hey, Dave, I remember, I remember when you were a chaplain for the Lions and you had the opportunity to lie to get some team members to stay on the team. I don't know what it was. And you didn't do that. And I saw that.

And my father and I delighted in that well-done, good and faithful survey. He's going to go to Ann. He's going to say, Ann, I remember watching you in those years of wiping diaper after diaper after diaper. And yeah, there were some days where you cried out and cursed. But there were a lot of days she would never curse.

Never. There were a lot of days when you did with your smile on the face. And my father and I remember that. And we took great delight in that. Everything we do has an impact in the unseen dimension of heaven.

And that should fuel our purpose and our joy right now. Yeah. And I'm just thinking there's someone listening, a mom, a dad, a son or daughter who's just struggling with work, you know?

And I know it can be really hard, especially what you said, Ann, about being a mom and just the grind of that. Nobody sees it. You're sort of invisible.

Feels like it doesn't matter. Yeah. I mean, our daughter, daughter-in-laws are doing that right now with these little kids and you just see it's hard. And what you just said, they need to be reminded. Jesus sees, He applauds. He is applauding right now. And He actually will give you strength and power to get through a hard work day.

Jordan, do you have any other applications for us? I love those five things. I'm thinking, oh, it'd be good to put those on our computers, you know, on our visors.

You just get the book and read it every morning. Yeah, but those were good as you're stepping. What are some practical things that we can do? Anything else? To be making better disciples? Yeah. So for me, one, this Wilberforce Launcher's framework has been very helpful for me. But this language of surface serious spiritual has also been really helpful.

I borrowed this from Matt Chandler, who I credit in the book. But just to have a roadmap, just to be able to identify in a conversation, am I, are we talking about surface level things? Right? Which most of us do. Which most of us do. That's where we stay.

We stay at the surface. But how can I take that to the next step in the map, to something more serious, right? Not necessarily spiritual, but just serious to really get to know what's going on in that person's heart, in that person's home, in that person's life, what hard things are going on, and then ultimately to get to spiritual. And listen, if we don't get to the spiritual, we can trust that God can use anybody else to bring that person to Christ. He doesn't need you, right? He doesn't need me, right?

He wants us to participate. But for me, that's a really helpful map to have in my mind to remind me of where I'm trying to take those conversations. We call it rounding the corner. Yeah. Because you can just go straight.

You're talking about nothing, nothing, nothing. But at some point you're praying like, God, just give me a little help me to go around this bend. But to do that, you have to be able to see the people and identify and be a good listener to know how to take that into another direction.

Totally. And I think one easy on-ramp, if you will, to the serious conversations is really trying to pay attention to why people are working so hard, right? I mean, work is one of the chief idols of our modern age. And so I'm always interested in trying to figure out, like, what is the work beneath people's work? Like, what is the source of all that striving, that overwork, that burnout, right? Talk to us. Talk to us right now.

The burnout world. Oh, man. So I talk about this in the book. I talk about Leah, right? Leah and Jacob. So Leah's tragic story, of course, is watching her husband fawn over her more beautiful sister, Rachel. And love her more. And love her more, right? And so what does Leah do? She turns to her work, specifically the work of childbearing, to earn something that her work was never designed to give her. Ultimate love and affection, right? So in Genesis, it says that after her first son, Leah says, Surely my husband will love me now, right?

But he doesn't. So Leah bears another child. And yet again, her work fails to earn Jacob's favor. So she tries a third time and she says, Now at last, my husband will become attached to me, right?

We could assume that third time wasn't a charm either, right? And by the time she delivers her fourth son, Judah, something changes in Leah, right? After Judah's birth, she says nothing that would connect her work to the previous work beneath her work. All she says is, This time I will praise the Lord.

And then she stopped having children, right? So on the surface, Leah's work was obvious, right? Her work was a mob, but the work beneath her work was the soul-crushing idol. And until we can identify the work beneath our work, we're always going to be tempted to burn out. We're always going to be tempted to overwork. And until we can say of our work, This time I will praise the Lord, that is my sole ambition.

I am doing this for the favor of my Heavenly Father. We're always in this context, always going to work ourselves to the point of burnout. It sounds like you're saying that work can become our identity. Just as for Leah, her marriage, being loved, became like, That's what I need.

If I have that, I will be happy. And really what God was saying, No, I am your source. I am your source of joy, not your husband, not a job.

It's me. I bring life. It's idolatry, right? We always think of idolatry as bad things. Idolatry is mostly not bad things. Idolatry are good things that we've elevated to ultimate things. Work is good. And work is a part of our identity, if you will. It is a big part of who God made us to be.

But it can never be our source of worth. And there's a difference there. And when it does, it will destroy you.

And everyone else around you, you want to see a good picture of this? Go watch the musical Hamilton. This is the story of Hamilton's life. Work and making a name for himself literally destroyed his life. You could argue it killed his son and destroyed his marriage.

Work's a good thing, but only Jesus can be a satisfying ultimate thing. Hey, what happened to Sisto? Oh, man. Did he go back? Did he go to South Africa? How are we going to end this story? So you got to watch this Oscar-winning documentary called Searching for Sugar Man. So when they get off the phone... That whole movie's about him? The whole movie's about him. Because I've heard that title. I didn't know it was about Sisto.

Yeah, Searching for Sugar Man. He gets off the phone, and I don't know how much later. They put him on a flight to South Africa from Detroit. And he brings his daughters with him, and they get off the plane, and these limos pull up, and there must be someone important here. Of course, the limos are for them.

So they get in a limo, and they go to the stadium with tens and tens of thousands of people, and Rodriguez gets on the stage, and they won't stop screaming. I mean, it must be 30 minutes of just pandemonium, this enormous star that they loved. And it's just a beautiful picture.

You've got to be careful here, right? All analogies break down because Jesus is the only star of heaven. But I think in a small way, that's what well-done, good and faithful servant looks like, with an audience of one, not tens of thousands of people. But that applause will be louder and more meaningful if we do our work as unto the Lord, as Colossians 3 tells us in this life.

There is going to be varying applause based on how we steward this life and steward our vocations in eternity, and that should fuel our purpose in the present. Oswald Chambers said, It is inbred in us that we have to do exceptional things for God, but we have not. We have to be exceptional in the ordinary things, to be holy in mean streets among mean people, and this is not learned in five minutes. What a true statement. Okay, this conversation with Jordan Rayner and work, that is right up my alley. You're a worker, and it was full of energy.

That guy can bring it. Well, he can, but it's also just a perspective of bringing Jesus into the workplace in a very beautiful and compelling way. Yeah, and I think we need that perspective. And I'm hoping you share those programs with your friends who are workers and often don't always have God's perspective on that.

And let me say this. One of the benefits of work is we get paid. And I know we want to get paid more than we get paid, but we get paid, and one of the things God wants us to do as we get paid is bless others. Because He's blessed us, we get to be a blessing to others. And I just want to challenge you, invite you to join our family at Family Life Today and become a financial partner, which means I'm going to jump in and give a one-time gift or a monthly gift so that the kind of content we just recorded can be shared with other people. That doesn't just happen unless people like you jump in and say, Man, my work matters, and because I work hard, God blesses that, and I want to be a blessing to others. And we really thank you to those who give and to all of you who are listening.

I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to David Ann Wilson with Jordan Rayner on Family Life Today. You know, as Dave was saying, we are God's children, and we're blessed to be a blessing. And your blessing to us at Family Life makes you a part of the Family Life family.

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