Why Your Marriage Needs Your Limitations: Kelly Kapic

Recognizing limits is not about saying we can't grow, and it's certainly not meant as an excuse for sin. It's meant to recognize, oh, I really am dependent on God, others, and the earth, and there's a goodness in this dependence.

But when sin is affecting those things, then it needs to be addressed. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Anne Wilson.

You can find us at familylifetoday.com or on the Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. So I have this thought. I want to see if you agree.

Oh, no. I think we did it. I think almost every married couple I've ever seen has done this. Before marriage, we overestimate our spouse's goodness.

After marriage, we overestimate our spouse's badness. Yes. That's brilliant. That's brilliant. I was just told I was brilliant.

That's my goodness. Before marriage, we see all the good. We notice everything. We're just reveling in the goodness of our to-be spouse. And then after marriage, you're right.

Suddenly, all we see is the negative. I think that's pretty common. Yeah, that's why I brought it up, because I'm reading a book called You're Only Human.

And it made me think of that concept when you apply the limits of our humanness to marriage. And we've got Kelly Cappie in the studio with us. Welcome back, Kelly. Thanks.

It's great to be with you. I mean, you're over there laughing about this comment. Obviously, you didn't say that in your book, You're Only Human. In fact, let me read the subtitle, because I think what we talked about yesterday, we need to apply to a marriage is how your limits reflect God's design. Right away, you go, what do you mean our limits reflect God's design and why that's good news? So you're laughing, because have you done the same thing?

I'm your professor, and you teach college students in theology. But you're a husband and a dad. So have you done that in your marriage?

Oh, yeah, in all kinds of areas, right? But I do think marriage is one of those things where, you know, my wife and I now for 20 years or so, we call it a young married class. And we'll take a year and we'll meet with about five couples once a month. And the reason we do it young married is we don't do newlyweds, because they don't have a clue. It's like a wasted time, right?

You have to get them in the reality phase. Exactly. So we'll let their pastors do the premarital counseling and stuff. And then once they're married, we're like, okay, now we can talk. And we do, and we have these homework assignments, like go out to a greasy spoon restaurant and talk about this.

But I think you're exactly right. Part of it is, you know, when you're dating, you're slowly revealing more and more of yourself because you can't hide it. But then in marriage, all of a sudden, you know, it's just there. And there's a reason biblically and otherwise, this imagery of nakedness is powerful, because there is something both beautiful when you're embraced and super vulnerable if you're not, right? And that's not just physical, that's in our whole selves. Yeah, and as we know, you know, marriage is especially so intimate. And I'm not talking about the sexual part of it. It's so intimate that biblically, we're even called to be naked and unashamed.

Not just physical nakedness, but revealing our full self. And then when we do, I think that's where we see, oh my goodness, they have a lot of limits, limitations. I didn't see that before.

If I had seen that beforehand, not sure I'm sitting here right now. And some do walk away because of that. Others are like, okay, I have limits too. What would it look like for us to become one and embrace each other's limitations? So talk about that in terms of you're only human, because you're only human really, in some ways, drives us away from one another. And it could be something that drives us to one another, right? Yeah, I think it's meant to drive us to one another, right? That the idea is that these two become one. And I think you're right, it's actually not just about sexuality.

It's much deeper. But there is this, vulnerability is the place where intimacy can happen. But there's no other option but risk. I was going to say, it's so risky. It is so risky. Because you could be rejected when all of your flaws are seen.

Right. And part of what you're dealing with marriage is all of our own stories and backgrounds from childhood on, we carry into our marriages. And so someone might respond one way and we give it a weight they didn't mean. And so we expose ourselves a little bit with vulnerability and then there's panic. So part of the challenge is, we have limits and we're sinners. And trying to navigate what is sin and what is just limits, right?

I'm no good at numbers. When we first got married, I would do the taxes and it was terrible. I mean, it was terrible. And then finally, a couple of years into marriage, I was like, give me those. And it's been great ever since.

And there were certain stereotypes. I think I, without even thinking about it, I'm like, well, I guess I'm the guy. I should do taxes, which is an idiotic thing. I should not do the taxes in our marriage, right?

So learning to depend has been beautiful. I'm like, oh, honey, we're so much better because you have these gifts and I don't. So you're not good at numbers. What if your spouse- We could just keep adding to that list. Just about anything except the- in my family, when my wife and kids are making fun of me, they'll say, oh, Kelly's a good theologian, which just means I screwed something else up.

Anyways, go ahead. Yeah, I was thinking, we all have those limits. But what if one of the limits is like, you're not good at empathy.

Or you're not good at caring for your wife or your husband. That's different than how you do the taxes. It's almost like, well, that's sin. But it may not be. That's why I'm asking. You're the theologian, you tell us.

No, I mean, it takes care with that, right? So early on in our marriage, I remember my wife worked at a hospital and she had to go to work at like four in the morning. And she'd go and come home and we'd sit down, have dinner later in the day. And I would just ask her about her day. And she'd tell me, oh, I saw this many bunnies on the way to work. I did this.

It was in Chicago, I don't know why. That was like, you could tell how good the day was by how many bunnies she saw at four in the morning on the way to work. But she would tell me about all these kind of things.

At the end, she would ask me, tell me about your day. And I wasn't trying to be mean. I was just like, that was pretty good. And I was done. Now, this is why I'm bringing up that story. That in many ways was my personality. It's also what I inherited. And what my wife had to do, but there was some sin in it too because it was negligent. And my wife had to teach me how to talk. It was like, well, tell me more about your day. And so when you struggle with empathy, when some of its personality, if it's undermining love, then it's something we need to work on. Now, I do think we need communities to help us and sometimes communities in marriage to go, no, those are unrealistic expectations.

But by and large, everyone's going to be like, no, Kelly, you should talk to your wife. You should use more than two words to summarize your day. So just to say, this is who I am. This is what I'm like.

This is what I've always been like. These are my limits. Those limits can be pushed.

Yes, they can be pushed, exactly. You can do better. Yeah. Recognizing limits is not about saying we can't grow. And it's certainly not meant as an excuse for sin. It's meant to recognize, oh, I really am dependent on God, others, and the earth. And there's a goodness in this dependence. But when sin is affecting those things, then it needs to be addressed.

Yeah. And the question is, when you are confronted or you come face to face with your spouse's limitations, what do you do? In fact, we had Abby Wedgworth on the show a while back. She had had a miscarriage. And she's trying to have her husband empathize with her. And her comments about her husband's limitations, I thought were enlightening, Kelly. So I'm going to play this clip.

We're not going to play it. OK. And then I just want you to respond. Because I think what she said, in the moment, I hadn't read your book yet. But now as I'm thinking about what she said, I'm like, oh, this is what Kelly could address. So listen to what she said, and then give us your thoughts.

We look to our husbands for leadership. But we also look to them to be fixers, to make things better for us. And sometimes there's just nothing that can be done to make it better. Part of me is, like, I forgive you. But there's another side that I don't know if he could have done any different. You know, like, was that really sinning against me? That he was so limited in his humanity in that way that he could not participate?

I don't think he was sinning against me. I think he was doing the best he could as a human being. Wow. Yeah, what thoughts do you have? Oh, there's a lot there. I mean, that's beautiful and that's vulnerable.

And I think there's something really powerful in what she's saying. But part of me also wants to help us think through process. Because I think part of our struggle is we tend to think in terms of finished products, right?

And so I think about, like, you know, I'll say sometimes in various settings, I don't think evangelicals have a very strong doctrine of creation. And people are like, what are you talking about? We've been talking about it for 150 years. And I'm like, when we talk about creation, what we tend to talk about is how God made the earth and when he made it.

Yeah. And I'm not going to say there's nothing to those conversations, but by focusing on those, all these other really important things have been lost. And the goodness of creation, etc.

But here's an example and it does relate to her comment. So when you read Genesis 1, whether you think the earth, like James Usher in the 17th century thought it was 4004 years old on October 22nd, whatever it was, or if you think it's 10 billion years old, it's interesting. Either option for a Christian or anywhere in between. All of us would have to admit God could have made it in a millisecond faster. And he takes days. And after each day, and whatever a day is, people can have that debate, but whatever it is, no matter what you say, it's a space of time. And he's like, oh, that's good.

And then, oh, that's good. Which tells us, even before there was sin or a fall, God valued process. The Spirit hovers over the, in Genesis 1, 2, over this chaotic waters, bringing order out of it. So God loves and delights in process. And until we recognize that, then our only option in our Christian life every day is to wake up and go, or by the end of the day, like, well, I guess that God is disappointed with me today because we struggle with sin. But if you realize, God's always valued process. And so, like, when she was talking about her husband, he's not going to be the same now as he was before this. And my guess is he probably has grown in empathy and those skills and I do think that's something to grow into. And yet, to not judge him by where he will be, but where he was, is a powerful thing and a gift, right? And I think that is more hopeful because it allows us to respect people, meet them where they're at, but then also be hopeful that we can grow, right?

If you struggle with empathy, it is a muscle you can grow. I love that. I wish someone would have told me that in our early years of marriage because I think we look at our spouse and think, oh, this is who you are instead of, oh, this is who you're going to become. I know that one of our sons was talking to his four-year-old son and kind of instructing him in something. I can't remember who it was, but his four-year-old looked at him and said, Daddy, I'm only four years old.

I'm going to get better at that later. And our son was like, oh, that's so true. I need to give him grace. I think we need to do that with one another. You're right, the process.

And God lives in the process and he celebrates the process. And especially we can do that to ourselves, too. We get so impatient with ourselves, like, I should be better at this by now. Instead we're like, you know, I've only been working on this for a few years.

I need to give myself some grace. How do we manage that and navigate that in a marriage especially? Or personally, like Ann said, because we say this at every marriage conference we speak at.

At the end of the conference, we remind the couples, listen, you're going to go home. He's not going to be different. She's not going to be different.

You're going to fight on the way home. I know you think because of these 48 hours, he's a totally different. And in some ways, yeah, there's going to be some change. But we're trying to remind them change is going to take time. So how do you navigate that when change is taking time? It's day seven, it's day 14, it's day three years and he's still, she's still, and you're like frustrated. Yeah. But they are slowly changing.

I think you can only love the degree that you've been loved. So what I mean by that is back up a little bit. Think about when you guys were teaching your kids how to walk, right? Margo, like my second, you know, I get near a couch and you kind of stand her up and she puts one hand on the couch. And then I walk like eight feet back and I'm like, come on, Margo, come to me.

Remember those days, right? Kind of wobbling. Then she finally gets the courage and she starts to walk toward me and then you know what happens.

Boom, hits the ground. And what do I do? I walk over to her and I'm like, you idiot, what are you doing, Margo? Right now, I apologize because my guess is honestly, some of you listeners, that might have triggered them.

Because that's what they heard. Well, or, or that, and here's what's interesting is like, you know, I didn't do that. Of course not. I walked over to my daughter and I picked her up. I'm like, oh, sweetie, it's all right. And she kind of, you know, she's looking, sometimes there's tears, sometimes there's not. She's trying to figure out how I kiss. I make a big deal about her knee hitting something, you know, whatever. And then I, and I stand her back up and try it again. And it's not that I'm indifferent to her learning to walk.

I knew she needed, but I knew how long it was going to take and the balance and the muscles. How do we think God views us? And our ability to be patient with spouses and with children and with others often betrays what we think God thinks of us. And I really think until we've come to appreciate the depth of his love and grace for us, it's very difficult to be loving and gracious and patient with others. And that's part of embracing process. Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, when you said that I, I've envisioned and I've seen, maybe you've seen videos as well of Special Olympics and somebody that's not physically able to run and they fall. And so often the other competitors will stop.

Yeah. And they'll go over and it's like, they don't, they want to, I think there's probably still want to win, but you can tell this isn't about us winning. We want to help our brother, our sister. And I thought if that's what we had in our marriage or with our kids, it's going to take a long time.

We're there to help. That would change everything. I remember talking to a husband and his wife was harsh to him, mean. And I remember asking him later, like, has that, like, is that been a struggle for you in terms of how you feel about yourself? He says, oh no. He said, it makes me feel bad for her because I know that that's how she speaks to herself.

And that's what's being reflected. I just need to love her. And I'm like, oh my goodness, you are so mature in realizing, like, she's just talking to herself like that all the time because I know her past and I know how that's how she was spoken to. So I need to get her to start talking to herself the way Jesus talks to her as a daughter of the King.

And I was like, man, that is so beautiful. That's right. Let's talk a little bit now about kids, schedules, what this looks like.

Is there any way as parents we can help our kids? Before we started our interview with you, you were talking about, like, I'd like to talk about kids' schedules. What's that mean? Well, I mean, part of it is, you know, years ago I did an interview with this woman. She'd read a book called The Little Book for New Theologians.

I did. And I agreed to do the podcast interview partly because she had a particularly niche audience of young moms with young kids. And she just got convinced that theology would matter to their lives. So she said, let's do an interview. And we had a great conversation. At the end of the conversation, she gave me what I know she thought was a softball question. She's like, what big theological concept do you think we moms should know?

And I said, finitude. She's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I said, well, your kids are not supposed to be good at everything and they don't have to do everything, be everywhere.

And it was this wonderful, rich conversation that came out of it. But like, you know, I'm speaking to somewhere outside of UVA and I hear this in Los Angeles and it's all over the country where starting in kindergarten, there are parents who are worried that my kid didn't get in the right kindergarten. And so all of this kind of pressure and does my kid need to learn Mandarin by this age? Do they need to do this?

Are they in seven sports? And the parents and the kids are just worn out. And part of what's happening is we are catechizing.

That's what's happening. And it's part of why a lot and we've been doing this for a long time. It's part of why a lot of us are so uncomfortable with quiet and silence and reflection.

Part of what makes prayer so difficult. You know, the average high schooler in my research shows primarily in upper middle class public and private schools. If it's lower income neighborhoods, it's a little different. But the average day for a high school kid, they go to school at 730. They're there till 330. They go off to an extracurricular activity, theater, robotics, a sport. They get home at 630.

They shower, they cram down some food, and then it's homework or another extracurricular till 1130 at night, every night. And they're dying. I mean, like, serious.

There is not a college I know when I go around and speak. I have not been anywhere where they say, yeah, we can keep up with the mental health issues of our kids. And I'm not saying that's the only thing.

There was COVID, all these other things. But this is a massive thing where these students will keep up and then and then the wheels come off. And I had a student come because I've been talking about these things publicly for a while and college student. She said, let's have lunch.

We had lunch and she takes a piece of paper and pushes across the table. And every hour is a block for a seven day week. 24 hours a day, seven. And she says, on here, I've color coded, you know, for the anal retentive listeners who love this, right? But I've color coded every hour on here. And I've tried to put in all the things that people I respect, pastors, parents, professors, people like you say I should do. So it's like you say I should sleep eight hours a day. You say sleep matters. So she put that in there.

You know, it's like black. And then it was like, well, I should I should read my Bible a little bit because I'm a Christian and pray a little bit. Put that in there. You should say I should have three meals a day and not just shove it down, but maybe talk to people. So time and then time in class and then this much out time.

And you'll see where this is going. It actually became literally impossible for her to do everything that was expected of her. That same story can be told about someone who's in business at 35 years old, right?

Or a parent at 28, whatever it is. And there is an irrationality to the shame and guilt we feel. And so part of it is to think through what does flourishing look like? What do we want from our kids? And I think it does betray sometimes what we really want for our kids is this American dream of financial prosperity, not necessarily flourishing before God, other, and the earth, right? You know, some of those things. So that's a lot of words.

We can take it anyway. I think every parent is resonating with this. I worked with high schoolers and it was harder for me to get a small group scheduled with high schoolers than with adult friends and moms.

So I think, I mean, their schedules were crazy, but the pressure they felt was so immense. How did you deal with this? Because you've got kids. How did you not fall into that same trap?

Because all of us are on that carousel. We don't know how to get off. I mean, we certainly didn't do it perfectly.

But one of the things we did do, which was hard, is we said no. And it's interesting when I talk about finitude and limits and everyone's like, oh, this sounds, let's talk about rest. And they love it. And they're like, and finally at the end, they're like, OK, now how do we get what you're talking about and everything we're doing?

Yeah. And the reality is it's painful. And it's not, by and large, it's not learning to say no to bad things. The hard part is learning to say no to good things.

And I mean, even just the ability to rest. I teach at a Christian college, and this is one of those test cases of on Sunday, and this is not about legalism, right? But just following this biblical pattern of one and seven day, day of rest and stuff, students will feel guilty if they don't study on a Sunday.

That tells you something's off, right? If they think they need to be working like that every day, that is going to drive them into the ground. And that's not a biblical pattern. Work is a good gift from God, but so is rest, right? And we've got to learn rhythms and some of those things. So part of it is, do you encourage kids to rest? I mean, I remember my kids at different times would come and say like, oh, I'm bored.

And my wife would be like, perfect. We're getting somewhere now. Because this is where creativity comes from, right? She would not constantly fill them and say, OK, now do this, do this. We're like, go find something to do.

We had some woods near us, like go, right? And there is something about creativity and space. But it's super hard as a parent to say no.

Yeah, and I think what you said is a great word for families. You don't even know what I'm going to say. No, I don't. I'm nervous. No, when you said you got to learn to say no to good things.

I don't think that is something families are considering. And I know there's listeners going, yeah, but you don't understand, and I know. I can remember a soccer coach calling me when I had three boys and he wanted my youngest on his team. And this kid was a really good athlete, ended up going to the NFL for a little bit. So he had it. And he's like, he's got to be on my team. I'm like, OK, what's it look like?

What's your score? It was like 90 games. I'm like, he's not going to do it. He's like, you're going to miss out.

He'll never get a college scholarship. I mean, I think he was seven. You know, or six years old. And this coach was sort of yelling at me like, you don't understand how sports work. And I'm like, I work in the NFL.

I'm an NFL chaplain. But it was a no answer. Yeah.

And I'm not saying we did it perfectly. Dave, I remember those conversations. And as a mom, I remember feeling, but they'll be behind. Kids could make fun of them. They could be bullied. You know, we go through this whole scenario. So I love that you said no. Because I don't know if I would have had the courage to. Yeah, and I just want to encourage families listening.

Dads, moms, blended families, make the hard call. It feels like they're missing out on something. I think when you said earlier, and it's in your book, you talk about rhythms and vulnerability and gratitude and rest. You talk about rest. Rest is a trust issue.

Because when you rest, you're not working. So you're like, I got to trust that even though I'm taking a day to not, I'm going to rest. I'm going to be creative. I'm going to re-energize.

I'm not going to fall way behind. I walked in a mall last weekend. We're doing a marriage conference on Sunday afternoon to get something to eat. And Chick-fil-A's there. I'm like, I want to get, oh, it's Sunday. Why are they closed? You know, that's what I was thinking.

And then at the other side, I'm like, wow, look at that. An organization that says, you know what? We're going to trust God to provide the finances we need. We're not going to be open. Every other one's open.

And I'm not saying it all. But I thought families need to be able to do the same thing. It's a hard call, but it's the right call. And your family will be better.

Your kids will thrive and you'll have a better marriage if you'll decide to make a hard call and say, you know what? The answer is no. I remember saying to one of the high school girls I was working with, here's your assignment for the week. Sometime this week, I want you to go for a walk.

Yeah, good. And she's like, I don't have time. I have practice. I have to study.

You know, she's trying to get into a big university. I said, don't study that night for, even if it's 30 minutes, just go for a walk. Don't scroll. Don't take your phone unless you're going to listen to worship music.

But just go for a walk and let there just be silence. And that was so foreign. But she kept saying, you don't understand like this final that's coming up. And I think we as parents have the ability to say, hun, the final, you're going to be great. It's going to be, I know you need to study. I know that's important. But it's not as important as just you are, of just having space, of just being able to breathe. And I'm sure you have found that with college students.

100%. But there is, I love that you guys are emphasizing this, but a word to those parents. If you say it to the kids, you have to be ready to actually believe it. And do it.

Because she might not get an A on the test. Yeah. And I think this is where our values do get betrayed. And so it's easy for us to tell the kids, hey, you need to relax. But actually, they're getting all these other signals from us. They better never relax.

Because they need to get this goal. And so it is a call to them and to us. And those are scary things as parents. I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Kelly Kapik on Family Life Today. Good stuff today. Do our actions, our posture, and even our mannerisms around our kids match our words and exhortations to them?

You know, me working with young people for over 20 years now, I found that they have the ability to read between the lines quite easily and discover what we actually believe based on how we live and not only by what we say. This was incredibly helpful content today from Kelly Kapik. And Kelly has actually written a book called Your Only Human, how your limits reflect God's design and why that's actually good news.

In this book, Kelly explores the theology behind seeing our human limitations as a gift from God rather than a deficiency. This book is our gift to you when you partner with us financially here at Family Life. You can go online to familylifetoday.com or you can give us a call with your donation at 800-358-6329. Again, the number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And feel free to drop us something in the mail, too, if you'd like.

Our address is Family Life 100 Lakehart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832. Now, if you know anyone who needs to hear conversations like the one you heard today, would you share it from wherever you get your podcasts? And while you're there, you can really help others learn more about family life today by leaving us a review. Now, tomorrow, David and Wilson are back again one more time with Kelly Kapik as he helps us to speak truthfully about our strengths and weaknesses, how we can delight in other people and look for their gifts. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us. On behalf of David and Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.