Teaching Your Kids to Think

So one of the things you were absolutely not allowed to do in the church I grew up in. Oh, okay.

We're going here today. I mean, there's so many things that come to my mind. You weren't allowed to laugh. You know, you had to dress a certain way. I mean, you couldn't clap. I mean, it's a pretty rule-based place. But one of the things I distinctly remember is you weren't allowed to ask questions about your faith. You weren't allowed to question the faith. You weren't allowed to ever express a doubt.

It just wasn't allowed. You were supposed to believe, have faith, whether it made sense or didn't make sense. If you questioned, if it's like you were not only just an unbeliever, you were of the devil. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com or on our Family Life app. This is Family Life Today. If you questioned, if it's like you were not only just an unbeliever, you were of the devil. Which was bad for you because being married to you for 41 years, you have a natural skepticism and you ask a lot of questions. Yeah, and I was asking questions to my single mom. And bless her heart, she's an amazing woman, an amazing mom. She didn't know the answers.

And so all she would say is, well, I don't know, and I don't think you're supposed to ask those kind of questions. So I felt like less as a person of... Spiritually. Spiritually is like, well, I'm probably not even Christian because real Christians have all the answers and they don't ever question like I do.

Because their faith is so grounded. Yeah. And so, you know, as I become a dad, I'm like the opposite. I want to encourage that with my kids. And so we're sitting here today with Hilary Ferrer in the Family Life Studio again. Welcome back to Family Life Today. Thank you so much. And I'm so sorry that that was your...

I can see you over there. You were just... I know, you're empathizing.

That is so bad. It's like because my husband, I call him the atheist magnet, because it's like if we were at a church picnic and the one agnostic and the whole park will sit down next to him and start a conversation. But so many of the ones who walked away from the faith and became the really passionate atheists come from that background and they assume that all churches are like that. And thankfully, that's not the kind of church I grew up in. So the fact that you're walking with the Lord after being told that, that just kind of shows the Lord was with you, man. Well, and Hilary, we're in ministry. We're on staff with crew. We've been in ministry for a year and we're sitting down and we're having our devotions. Dave's doing something. He walks in. I have my Bible on my lap. Oh, this is our first year of marriage.

First year as a full-time missionary. He says, you think it's true? I said, what? He goes, the Bible. How do we even know it's true?

Maybe it's all a myth. And I'm sitting here thinking, what? This is the man I married? We went into full-time ministry because God called us? And now you're questioning all of it? Yeah, I mean, this is like almost 18 months, two years after my conversion, which wasn't to my junior year in college. And now we're in ministry and giving our lives to this, thinking probably full-time, which here we are 41 years later. We did it.

We've still done it. But I remember your response because I remember she looked at me like, well, I don't have those kind of questions. It's just the way she's wired. But she said, you better find answers. Oh, good wife.

Good wife. And I did. I went on this journey, which as we've already talked previously with you, the questions and going after those answers strengthens your faith, not lessens it. So I came out on the other side after reading Evidence that Demands a Verdict and looking at Frank Moore. That was my first book, too.

I mean, all kinds of different stuff. More than a carpenter. Wow, I feel like I have a solid foundation. I was starting to believe, oh, come on, there really isn't a foundation.

Isn't it empowering when you have those questions answered? And now it's like, because I remember, like I said, I was 12 when ApologX was done from the pulpit that I was introduced to it. And it went from, you know, I'd always had a very firm belief in Christ and in the gospel and Jesus, all that. But all of a sudden, I was really excited. It was like it was the first time I really owned my faith because I was like, oh, wait, no, this is like for real is true. I can be proud of it.

I know. I can be proud of it. I can talk to non-Christians about this and not be scared.

And I don't have to only talk to Christians. It's an incredibly empowering feeling when you know that I actually have based my life on something that is true. Yeah. And so obviously you become Mama Bear.

Yes. Which, you know, is such a great brand to understand. You want to help mothers and men as well, I know. But help them be able to help lead their kids. So I'm holding your book right in front of me, Mama Bear ApologX, empowering your kids to challenge cultural lies.

Let's talk about that a little bit because you did such a good job. You know, moms are going to be the ones getting those questions and dads, but we often feel so ill-equipped to know what to do with our kids. So when you think about that, you have all these different methods in your book. I love how you write. So one of them is chew and spit. Yes, the chew and spit method.

So I grew up in Texas, a proud Texan. And I remember from a young age, we had to learn how when you're eating steak and you get that piece that you just keep chewing and chewing and chewing, and nothing's happening with it, how to discreetly spit that out into your napkin. Wait, this was a thing for real? Are you serious? Have you not had gristle? No.

Is this a desk thing? Well, it's like if you've ever had a steak that has gristle in it, it's like you literally have to discreetly. And even if you're in a fancy restaurant and you've got to figure out a way to just kind of, you know, cloth napkin, spit that thing out because that thing is not going to digest. That's a Texas thing because in Michigan we pull it out. Our producer is like, yes, this happens. And he's from Texas. He's from Dallas.

He's even a Cowboys fan. But I mean, we would pull it out of our mouth discreetly. We didn't spit it. You spit it?

Well, yeah. We don't, yeah, spit it into the napkin. I'm not saying where there's like a gristle spittoon sitting across from us, but that'd be kind of gross. But yeah, it's just this idea that when you're eating sometimes there's some things you don't want to swallow. And so I think when we're interacting with culture, it's this idea of people try to divide everything into safe and dangerous. Where if something's in the safe Christian category, then I can basically just turn my brain off and let my kids watch whatever it is.

And they don't have to think through it. It's all safe. But all this stuff over here, you know, when I was growing up, you know, Madonna and some of these other bands, you know, that's the dangerous spot. And so you kind of start raising kids that have no spiritual immune system because if they've never been exposed to any other kind of idea, then they get out into their teens and early 20s and discover that, hey, some of these things that were forbidden are actually not part of like demon Satan worship with, you know, whatever going on with them. And so at that point when they discovered there's some good and the things that they were told were all bad, who then becomes the liar?

Oh, the people that told them it was all bad become the liar. Give some examples of that. Like, can you think of any TV shows or something? I'm thinking of all the shows, like you're not watching that.

You're not watching that, you know? Well, yeah, I don't think we even have the luxury of, I guess, sheltering our kids in that same way anymore because even the children's programming, you still have to have your antenna up right now because you have no idea what kinds of things from the liberal progressive Christian that are taught in some things. Like, I think we have a podcast episode about this woman children's pastor who wrote about the trouble with Easter and how this idea that Jesus actually died for our sins leads our kids into this dangerous belief that there's something inherently wrong with them. And I'm like, there is. It's called sin. Exactly. And every parent knows.

Yeah. So it's like we don't have the luxury of doing that. We have to teach our kids how to chew and spit this idea of you kind of evaluate everything. And I have this little hand, I know we're a radio, but this hand gesture where you bring them together. Like if you're talking with your kids, everything's a mixture of good and bad. So it's like your hands are classed, like almost in prayer.

Yeah, like in prayer. So what we do when we engage with culture is we separate the good from the bad. Now we're going to separate our two hands. We're going to embrace the good and reject the bad. So you pulled one hand to you, you're holding on to it, and this is the spit.

Yeah. So what I've discovered is, well, number one, there's never going to be a theologian so awesome that he doesn't teach you something that's not true. And there's never going to be an atheist so bad that they never say something true. You can learn truth from a lot of different sources if you have the humility to learn.

And I've actually found even beauty in a lot of different sources. Every now and then I have someone email me asking me what movie I'm talking about in the book that there's this one movie that I will never watch again. I'm sad that I watched it the first time. I mean, it just gives you images in your head that you can't unsee. Well, hey, just saying that makes everybody want to know, what are you talking about?

That's my favorite one. Does it remember the Titans? I mean, what are you talking about? No, it was Requiem for a Dream. It was what? Requiem for a Dream.

It's got Jared Leto and I can't remember, but it's these kids that kind of get into drug culture and then the darker and darker it gets and just the lengths that they're willing to go in order to get a fix. And then it just kind of shows the psychosis in visible ways. But I remember watching that and I remember after I was done, first off being like, what did I just watch? But I dropped to my knees and I thank the Lord because I saw how easy that could have been to get into a culture like that.

Especially, you know, I have a history of struggling with just some depression and anxiety, which I think a lot of people do. And that if I hadn't been brought up in the church, if I had been given something that would numb those feelings, how easy would it have been to descend into that culture? And so I basically dropped on my knees and praise God for what he'd saved me from in this life, at least. So basically you're saying in that movie, you were chewing and you were spitting it all out. I was spitting it all out and thanking God that that was not my story. So I mean, that is kind of the extreme.

I don't think we need to like go for all these, you know, raunchy things to try to see what good we can find in it. But I remember watching, and I'll say this, there was a Madonna concert that just happened to be on TV and I was watching it and I was like, wow, she is incredibly artistic. The art direction, it was so amazing. And just appreciating that beauty. And even if it's coming from a non-Christian, I can appreciate that beauty. And we were talking about this over lunch, this idea that the Lord gives people convictions based on sometimes the demographic that he wants them to minister to.

And so being able to interact maybe with a lot of the artistic stuff. And a lot of times in the arts, you're not going to have very many redeeming things, but if you can learn to embrace some of the beautiful things because that's the particular demographic the Lord has you to minister to. I mean, there could be someone else who the Lord's going to be calling them to minister to, to Muslims or really conservative Christians.

And he says, I don't want you to have any caffeine, no drinking at all, absolutely teetotaler, and that's who he's called them to minister to. So there's all these different convictions. Anyway, it's just this idea of taking in everything. Don't intentionally go after something bad, but being able to take whatever you see, separate the good from the bad, embrace the good and reject the bad. And know why you're embracing something and know why you're rejecting something. So one of the beautiful things about, I think the way I present apologetics in these books is you don't have to know all the answers.

You just need to know how to think about culture and thinking well is something I think we are all capable of doing without having some kind of advanced degree. But just knowing how to pick through the messages, how to recognize what those messages are and then discuss them with our kids. I think that's so wise because as teenagers, if we've watched something on TV with our kids or gone to a movie and then just to discount the whole thing, like that's trash.

Why are you even watching that? They're like, OK, well, I'm not going to talk to mom and dad about or maybe I'm going to hide what I've seen or even what I've thought. So give us an example of the conversation. Like, let's say you all watch this movie and show us what it's like then.

How do we start that chew and spit? So one of the movies I think is a great way to do this is I love anything with like singing, especially singing competitions. There is the movie that they came up with the second one.

It's got the same problems that the first one had. The movie Sing. It's a children's cartoon. But as I watched it, I think on opening weekend, I was like the only adult there, not with a child. You went without your kids?

I don't have children. Oh, that's right. You went by yourself. And so I noticed that the main character lied his whole way through it. Everything was. And basically, if you look at it, the God is the art. He was able to lie and do whatever he needed to do, whatever unethical thing he needed to do in order to produce his art.

So that was kind of his God. So I wrote something for the mama bears and I said, OK, go see this with your kids and buy a thing of popcorn and you might want to get a big one. Because every time he says a lie, have him take a bite of popcorn. Oh, that's smart. I was like, that popcorn bowl is going to be gone quickly. But that's the kind of thing where they're starting to pick out these different things and you can start talking to them.

What was it that he held up as the highest good? What was it that the director and the creators of this were laughing at or denigrating? Like you see actually motherhood very much being lowered in the eyes. So the character that I can't remember what animal she is, but there's just a ton of kids and showing, oh, this is so mundane, so boring. You could be special and as if being a mother was not special.

So you can just pick out some of these messages that they're doing. Or like I remember taking one of my little nieces to see the frog princess, I think it was. And, you know, thinking, oh, this is going to be safe and I'm watching it. And some of the parts in there, I'm like, dude, this is demonic. And so I was like, yeah, we didn't have a conversation about this.

So on the way home, I was saying, you know, Darby, so let's talk about this. Let's talk about some of the things that were true in this. Are monsters real? No, not really. What about, you know, princesses? Yeah, princesses are real. Are frogs real? Are talking frogs real?

Probably not. And I said, what about evil, Darby? Do you think evil is real?

And she kind of thought, she goes, no. And I said, oh, let's talk about evil. Evil is real. And then that, of course, led into the conversation of how greater is he that is within you than he that is in the world. This is a verse that my mom used to say to me a lot, just because I think I was very aware of evil at a young age.

And that was one of the verses she used to comfort me. So it's really just kind of looking at things and looking at them from different perspectives and especially trying to find the things that you can agree with. Like one of the real controversial articles that we did this last year, and I can't remember if we did a podcast or not, or maybe it was two years ago, it was with Amy. Do you remember the Netflix show Cuties?

Yes. I heard about it. We didn't see it, but we heard about it. So Amy and I were like, I think we need to take one for the team. Yeah, share what it is. And we watched it.

And I will tell you, this is like an ultimate chew and spit thing. And I don't recommend a lot of people do it. There's certain things I can tell if the Lord has said, no, it's okay to do this. I pray about it before, before watching anything. But it is a very, very, very accurate portrayal of young girls being swept down into this social media dance until they start getting raunchier and raunchier and raunchier. It is a very accurate portrayal. The unfortunate thing is, is they're portraying it with girls that are actually 12 and 13 years old. So you're actually doing to girls what you're warning girls about. And that's where the controversy came from, is the fact that we did have these 12 and 14 year old girls that are doing these gyrating motions. And at the same time, as I looked, I think I even ended up going back and after the watch, I ended up watching it a second time after Amy and I talked and it was just the main character at the end when she comes out of it. It's actually this beautiful aha moment and the movie ends with her playing jump rope and it's like this return to childhood. Yeah, it's this return to innocence after she realizes I don't want this to be me. And so that would be an ultimate chew and spit kind of thing.

And again, I don't think we should go after something that is mostly spit. But at the same time, I guess movies is how the Lord teaches me a lot of things. It's like whenever I'm talking about spiritual things, a lot of times I say, oh, it's like this scene in the movie or it's like that scene in the movie.

It's like all these little snippets of things that I can use analogies for. And I think that's just a good reminder for us as parents that the culture is discipling our children. And whether we like it or not, this is happening and it's shaping their world views. That's David Ann Wilson with Hillary Morgan Ferrer on Family Life Today. We'll hear Hillary's response in just a second, but first, as a listener at Family Life Today, you have heard many stories of how God can do amazing work in even the toughest marriages.

And the amazing thing is that God chooses to use people just like you to help. One way you can make an impact for more marriages and families is by financially partnering with Family Life Today. All this week as our thanks for your partnership, we want to send you a copy of Hillary Ferrer's book as our thanks. It's called Mama Bear Apologetics. You can get your copy when you give this week at familylifetoday.com or when you call with your donation at 800-358-6329.

That's 800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. All right, now back to Dave and Ann's conversation with Hillary Ferrer and how to develop a Christian worldview for your kids in everyday life. One of the things that has to be discerned is for you and I to know what to chew and what to spit, we have a biblical worldview that's been developed.

What you did with Darby, your little niece, right, is what we should be doing as parents with music, with TV shows, anything that's out there. You tell me if I'm right or wrong, it's simple as after it's done or even pause it in the middle and have a conversation, hey, let's talk about what's true. Let's talk about what isn't true and see what they respond with because they may say things that aren't true that they say are true.

And you go, well, I'm glad that we caught that. And next thing you know, you may not know, they may not know you're giving them a biblical reference and worldview that will be developed further later. But you're setting those boundaries to say you're beginning the foundation like you did with evil.

No, evil is not real. Oh, yes, it is. And when you're giving her a worldview, that's our job as parents. You would be surprised at how quickly they pick up on this because I even remember what my mom did. She must have just done it a few times. We'd be watching a movie.

And this is, of course, when you couldn't pause television, but if it was a movie, you could pause it. And my mom would look over at me and say, you see that, Hillary? That's a red flag. So she taught me how to spot red flags in guys early on.

And it just took a couple of times for me to realize, oh, you can discern things about someone's character before they actually show all that character. But Amy's kids now will put stuff on pause and be like, hey, mom, come here and see this. And then they'll play it and they say, did you catch it? Or they're proud of themselves because they caught it. And so it's one of those things where since they have those conversations, now her son's kids are coming, hey, Miss Amy, you're religious, right?

And now they're bringing her their questions. Well, what you're defining is your Roar Method. Yes, it is the Roar Method.

I was going to say, we need to talk about that. Talk about Roar. I mean, mama bear's got to roar. What's Roar?

That's right. We need all roar like a mother. That's our tagline for the first book.

And so Roar is the acronym that we came up with, me and the ladies that were on the team for the first book. And so it stands for Recognize the Message, Offer Discernment, Argue for a Healthier Approach, and Reinforce These Ideas Through Discussion, Discipleship, and Prayer. So I had developed some of this back from when, I can't remember the research company, but they looked at their six reasons why youth tended to doubt and to experience doubt in church. And so what I noticed with each of them was these are the questions that kids have maybe say about science. This is kind of how the church had intended to address it. This is where things went all wonky, basically, we didn't reach our intention. And this is how we can argue for a healthier approach.

And so I kind of brought that idea into these. So recognizing the message would be, what is the base message that is coming from? What worldview is being preached through this media? So there's some mama bear, I can't remember who it was, I think she emailed me and said that she'll be in a movie and her child will yell out, bad worldview. And I thought I would love to be in that movie theater and be like, okay, who's the great mom?

Where's the great mom? But so recognizing the message, what are they laughing at? What are they treating as the most important thing? What is humorous? Like one of the things that drives me nuts is really dangerous driving that's portrayed as humorous. Stuff like that where it's just showing irresponsibility is humorous. Oh, mine is portraying dads as being dumb. Yes, portraying dads as, yeah, the dumb dads, the dumb parents. So what are they portraying as true?

What message is this really coming out with? Now when we go into the offer discernment, a lot of times people hear the word discernment and they think pointing out everything that's wrong with something. And I think that's a really bad definition of discernment because that just makes us... And it's a bad practice because our kids are like, whatever, everything's wrong to mom.

Okay, tell me all the things that are wrong. So discernment is, again, that's the separating the good from the bad, accepting the good and rejecting the bad. So I think in order to build bridges first, we need to know when to build bridges and when to build walls. So building that bridge first saying, what is good? What can we all agree? Because even if a character makes a bad decision, sometimes they did it with good intentions and not that good intentions make up for bad actions, but we can at least acknowledge we might've had the same goals and then achieve those goals through two separate ways. One which was a good idea, one which was a bad idea. So we're separating the good from the bad, acknowledging the good and saying, this is the bad that snuck in there.

Okay, we've now discerned. Argue for a healthier approach is where we can say, what were those good intentions? What is that good? And how is the Bible actually a proponent of this? What's a healthier way to argue for this good to where you're embracing that value and it's coming out in a biblical way. And then finally reinforcing the discussion, discipleship and prayer. So this would be having the conversation actively, having kind of activities that reinforce this idea and then prayer, praying through these ideas. Cause like y'all talked about before, we have the ideological realm, I guess that we are waging a war on in battle, just this cultural battle that's going on, but there's a spiritual battle that's going on and just the idea of praying for your kids to see the lies for what they are, praying them for them, one of the things I pray every time I do a talk, if I have the time, I love to go through and just touch all the chairs and pray for scales to fall from the eyes, for blindness to be exposed and for light to penetrate. And so just covering your children from that spiritual perspective and teaching them how to pray themselves and not just a, Lord, please keep grandma safe and let us have a good trip. I mean, it's not like those are bad prayers, but how can we be teaching them, Lord, I pray that I would be able to see when a lie is being promulgated as the truth. I pray that if my heart starts to follow something that is not after your heart, that I would acknowledge it or that you would bring someone into my life to acknowledge it. Or one of my favorite prayers, just cause I think it's a wise prayer.

I asked the Lord to humble me without publicly humiliating me, which I think is also a good prayer for, well, number one, for any leader position, but teaching our kids to accept that chastisement when it needs to come and be grateful for it. Yeah. I love even your last R of roar reinforced through discussion, I think discussion, discipleship and prayer.

Yeah. Discussion with our kids, especially in middle school, high school, and again, start early, but as they're asking these really somewhat profound questions and pushing back and, you know, even as their peers push in on them often as a parent, we pull away. We withdraw out of that rather than stepping in and engaging. One, I think we think, oh, they don't want to hear our voice anymore.

They do. And number two, instead of like slamming something down their throat, it's like, let's have a discussion. Discipleship is discussion and prayer, but let's talk about this and hear their thoughts, hear their pushback, let them question, let them doubt, and then walk them through this discussion toward the truth because somebody's got to do it. And often we want the Christian school to do it or the pastor to do it or the church and that's all good, but no, God calls us to be in that discussion with them and we can become a safe place. Not mom and dad are never going to listen to me or never going to let me question, but no, mom and dad are actually safe. They're going to discuss with me and partner with me toward the goal of truth.

Yeah. I think we say somewhere that truth that is discovered goes a lot deeper than truth that is just presented. So you can be presented with the truth and it may not go deep, but when you feel like you yourself had discovered the truth, that's where it kind of sticks. And so instead of just saying, this is what's wrong with that, just say, well, what did you think about this? Well, do you think that might lead to, you know, what did you think about the idea that he put art as the highest thing? Well, what about the one where it seemed like he neglected his family? Do you think you should neglect your family for art? Do you think someone has ever regretted that they spent more time with their family than more time, you know, at work? Have you ever heard someone say that story from their deathbed?

I've kind of heard the opposite from my deathbed. And so you're asking questions to help them kind of think through this for themselves to where if they get something wrong and especially if you can pick up on what it is that they're getting wrong, you know how to ask the question that's going to lovingly help them think through that idea. My dad always said, there's a couple of things he always said to me, because I was a question asker big time, and he always said, you don't need to have all the answers. You just need to know where to find the answers.

And basically, the way to find the right answers is to know how to ask the right questions. That's good. I'm wondering, Hillary, as we close, would you pray just for the moms? Yes. You know, as they're thinking, I want to do this, I need to do it.

Yep, absolutely. Father God, we thank you so much for this time that we spent having a discussion, Lord, and I do pray over the moms that are out there, Lord. First off, we just want to recognize what a huge, massive job that they have, Lord, that they are shepherding these little mines, and they are really raising the next generation, Lord, you know, talks about the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world, Lord, there is no such thing as a mom with a small job, Lord. I just pray that you would help them to see in their lives, things that are taking their attention that might not need to be in places that you want to plug them in.

I pray there would be a place of no condemnation for those who feel like if they have one more thing put on their shoulders that they're going to crack, that you would just come and lift some of those burdens off of them. And for those who don't know how they can engage, Lord, I pray that you would give them just the hope that they can understand and they can engage and they can know how to ask the right questions, Lord, and how to steer their children. We just thank you that you are the good father and that while we are being shepherds to our kids, Lord, you are shepherding our hearts, Lord. I pray that you would just train them what it looks like to battle on their knees before you praying over their children and that you would just give them a sense of peace, Lord, as they move into maybe new territory, as they move into new ideas, Lord, just to say, I can do this. This is what the Lord has called me to. And you would give them a sense of godly empowerment that they can do that which you have called them to do, that you have given them every good gift in order to shepherd their children well, Lord. I pray that they would just feel your presence as they go through that and as they work towards raising children to the glory of God. In your name, I pray. Amen.

Amen. You've been listening to Dave and Anne Wilson with Hilary Morgan-Ferrar on Family Life Today. Their book is called Mama Bear Apologetics, and you can get your copy when you give this week at FamilyLifeToday.com. Now I've got the president of Family Life, David Robbins, with me here in the studio. You know, sometimes our kids come at us with a question that either stumps us or throws us for a loop, and you had that happen to you recently, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think about this whole conversation, and I go, this is what we are about at Family Life, helping parents and kids, helping couples, helping families experience time together around timeless truth. Because the reality is transformation happens in the trenches of life when real things happen. And recently we were telling our kids we were going to move again. And as we were doing that, this was about two years ago, my oldest, who usually is our most articulate, expressive one, went really silent. And as we walked through that evening and he was headed up the stairs to bed that night, I asked him, you know, buddy, are you okay?

What are you thinking? And he said, dad, I don't know if I'm mad at you or I'm mad at God, but I know I'm mad at someone. And because of Family Life and my life, and because of resources that have been there, my first response was, oh buddy, God can handle your anger. Don't stuff it. Bring it out.

Like bring it to him. Let's wrestle with our doubts together and our anger together. I just was so grateful for the investment of Family Life and my own life as the president, that in that moment, those acute moments in life, we're able to enter with grace and truth and have time together that shape our kids' worldview and world. Jared And that's beautiful.

I'm so glad that God was gracious with you in that tough moment with your son and that God used Family Life to help you engage well with him. Now tomorrow, Dave and Anne Wilson will continue the conversation with Hilary Farrer, where she'll be joined by her husband, John. They are opening the floodgates on the topic of how to actually listen to your wife. That'll be a good one. On behalf of Dave and Anne Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life, a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.