Never Too Late For Love

After being married for five years, Mark and Holly Girth decided to start a family, except they soon realized it wasn't going to happen the way they thought it would. They dealt with infertility for years.

I think a lot of it was just confusion. But I also, I wasn't afraid to tell God, like, today I'm mad, today I'm sad, today I'm completely confused, because I just found out another person doesn't even want to have a baby, he's having a baby. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are David and Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine. You'll find us online at familylifetoday.com.

Mark and Holly Girth's story of infertility is a story with a surprising twist at the end. We'll hear that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. I got to tell you guys, I am really interested in hearing the story we're about to hear today. We sat down, we're talking to our guests, our new friends, Mark and Holly Girth, and they started telling us this story. And we said, We got to do this.

That's right. We got to get you on the radio and have you tell your story so we don't know the details any more than our listeners do. I know, I'm excited too. And before we introduce these friends to our listeners, we need to pause here and just remind Family Life Today listeners, we've got now less than four weeks to go before the end of the year. Wow. This is a significant season for us at Family Life.

We want to remind you of our financial needs headed into year end and ask you to be a part of helping meet our need and making a donation at Family Life Today. I'll tell you what, Ann and I were speaking a couple years ago at The Weekend to Remember in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Smelled like chocolate all weekend.

It did. It was wonderful. And I'll never forget a guy running up to me right before the last session. I hadn't met him all weekend.

Long story short, he runs up to me. I'm on the stage getting ready to speak and he says, Hey, you need to jump off that stage right now and rip up my divorce papers. And the story is a long one, but I'll just say this.

I did jump off stage and I heard his story and it was basically we're at the end. We came to this just to check a box. Somebody paid our way. I thought this was a waste of time and God showed up and he saved our marriage. And tomorrow we were supposed to get divorced, but today we're going to go home and we're going to make this thing work.

And I just thought, what a story. Well, I get chills just remembering that because it was this great couple and they were so excited because they had never heard biblical truths about marriage and they started putting it into action even that day. And I too, I've had people come, women come up to me, rip up papers right in front of me, these divorce papers. And I'm telling you, this makes a difference in marriages. It's made a difference in our marriage and we want to keep giving these timeless truths to families. Here's what I don't think you, the listener understands, and this guy doesn't know this, that moment doesn't happen in his marriage without partners who financially support family life. He has no idea that we can't even do conferences like that. We can't do family life today, radio like we're doing right now. Some of you save their marriage because you're givers.

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Thank you in advance for whatever you're able to do. And on behalf of people who are going to rip up their divorce papers this coming year, thank you for the investment in their legacy. We appreciate that. Okay, let me introduce our friends Mark and Holly Girth. Mark and Holly, welcome to Family Life Today. Thank you. Have we heard this is Mark's first ever interview?

Yes, it is. In all of life. Are you really excited?

Nervous. It's just a conversation, but you guys were sharing with us as we were getting to know them. And by the way, they live in northwest Arkansas. Holly is a Wall Street Journal bestselling author. She's written a brand new book that we're going to talk about sometime later on Family Life Today called The Powerful Purpose of Introverts.

Mark is involved in real estate. They are the parents of a 27-year-old daughter who, and here's the punchline right at the beginning, who you adopted when she was 20. Okay, so let's go all the way back. And Holly, you guys got married and your goal, your desire was to have biological kids, right?

Yes, we thought, we know how this works. We're going to have kids. That's important. Yes.

No problems. Were you thinking big family, small family? Did it matter to you?

Probably two or 30. Yeah, is that what you were thinking? Yeah. And you guys met in college.

Yeah, college. At what point in your marriage did you start to go, I don't know that this is working the way it's supposed to work? Well, we were about five years in when we thought, okay, time to start a family. And month after month, just nothing happened. And then about a year and a half in, I got pregnant and we lost the baby at six weeks. And then we just couldn't get pregnant again. And that went on for about a decade.

And so that was not the story that we would have written. It was hard and painful. I did a lot of ugly crying in bathrooms and asking God what in the world was going on. One spring, every time I would drive by a pasture full of pregnant cows, I would yell at them out the window. So it was a hard journey. Now, you're laughing, but when you yell out the window at cows, I haven't heard that phrase.

It must have really been hard. Is that what happens in Arkansas? Yeah, you yell at the cows. Take it out on the livestock. Yes, that's true. I sounded very Arkansas just then.

I grew up in Texas. You went to doctors, I'm sure, and said, what's wrong? Holly, did they have an answer for you?

Eventually they said probably PCOS, which is pretty common, which meant that I likely didn't ovulate, which obviously I did once because I got pregnant, but that was the best they could figure out. There wasn't anything really conclusive. We just knew there wasn't a baby coming. So how did you get your mind and heart around that? Like there had to be grieving and mourning. And did you come to a point where you thought, OK, this is just our story? Yeah, I remember after we had our miscarriage, we went to our small group and I thought, I'm not going to tell them. I'm just going to act like everything's fine.

We're just going to get through this. And it came to prayer request time and I couldn't hold it together. And I'd sort of grown up thinking I just had to be fine to make God look good. And it wasn't OK to not be OK. And that night when I said, I'm not OK, we're not OK.

This is what's going on. I sort of waited for the rebukes and you just need to have more faith or whatever was coming. And instead they just wrapped their arms around us and said, we love you and we'll walk through this with you. And that really gave me permission to embrace it. Yeah, this was really painful and hard.

And so there was a lot of grieving. And then over time, in a way I still fully can't explain, I felt like God started to heal my heart. In particular, one day I felt like he took me to the third chapter of Genesis where Eve is called the mother of all living.

And I felt like he said, Holly, every woman is a mother because every woman breaks life into the world in some way. And I was doing that by birthing books. And even my first big book that came out, my small group had a book shower for me because they said you haven't gotten to have a baby shower. So this book is your baby. We're going to have a shower. And so I sort of thought, well, maybe that's the ending of our story is that I'm going to birth books.

But obviously that wasn't. I mean, Mark, when you're sitting there that night at the small group and Holly offers that as a prayer request, what were you thinking? I don't know. I was kind of like, oh, no, we're giving our story out. We're telling people. Were you glad eventually that she did share that? Yeah. I mean, it's like a weight off your shoulders and stuff.

You get to share with friends. I mean, we've got friends that are close to that, you know, carry that burden with you. Holly, I want to ask you about in those 10 years, all the people who would come and say, so when are you guys going to start a family? Or don't you guys know how this works or all of that stuff that people are well-meaning when they do it, but they don't recognize it's a dagger every time somebody says something like that. Yeah, it's hard. It's very hard. I had a lot of people say things to me that I was like, what in the world?

One person said I just needed to quit my job and drop out of grad school, then I'd be less stressed and could have a baby. And I want to punch you right now. But I came to understand that really what they were saying, whatever words they used, was I love you and I'm sorry that you're hurting and I hope you get what you really want. And so it was hard. I won't say I never got irritated or frustrated or took something to heart when I probably should have let it go. But over time, I came to understand people just don't know what to say and they're trying to say this and they're just doing a really bad job.

And so that helped to look at it through that perspective. That takes a lot of grace and maturity on your part. That's a spirit-generated response. That doesn't come from the flesh. No, because my flesh, again, wanted to throat punch everyone.

Right. How did you comfort one another during that time? Was that a difficult time for your marriage?

I don't think it was difficult. I think it actually brought us closer together. You know, our Saturday morning breakfasts, we'd talk and stuff like that. It's pretty cool that you had that Saturday morning breakfast. Yeah. You know, I mean, it sounds like, oh, it's just a no. That was a moment each week where you could connect, right? It's a date night, but it's a date morning.

But was that where you process some of that? Yeah. A lot of times we just sit down and say, okay, you know, how are you doing this week? How are you feeling? What's going on? And how are we going to get through this together?

So it did. I know a lot of couples, this isn't their story and it's totally understandable, but it did feel like we were always on the same team and that if one person was really struggling, the other person would kind of step in and be the support and then we'd flip. Did you talk about adoption in those early years? We did, but we just never felt like where God was leading us, you know? And I think I even questioned that a little because on the surface it's like, that's such a good thing to do.

So many people we know are doing it. Like, why wouldn't we just do that? But every time we tried to go down that path, it just felt like that's not where we're supposed to end up. At least not the typical way.

What about in vitro or any of the other extraordinary measures that can be taken for fertility? Yeah, we did take medication for a little bit to hopefully help me. But after that point, again, we just felt like God was saying, don't go any further down this road. And I just kept thinking about the story of Sarah and Hagar.

And I just felt like if I go any farther down this road, it's going to be my Hagar. And I don't believe that is true for everyone. I think every single family story is different.

So if someone listening chose to go further down that path and God led you, then great. It just, I knew in my heart, we knew in our hearts, we felt like we're not supposed to pursue this anymore. Mark, the idea that you weren't going to be a biological father, coming to grips with that reality, was that hard for you? Not as hard for me as it was for Holly, because I'm not really an emotional person.

So I was kind of able to segregate her, I guess, or put it into the room and shut the door. Yeah. But I mean, for her, it was a lot harder. So you were more focused on how do I help her through this journey than whatever your own level of pain might be? Yes. And Holly, for you, the reality that this is over, this isn't going to happen, was that hard to embrace and say, this is my life?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, looking back, it's easy to talk about it, because it's now been a long time since I was in that place. But in the moment, it was heartbreaking and difficult. And it was hard because all my friends were getting pregnant and I felt left behind.

I mean, you don't think about all the different dimensions that it impacts from your friendships to what you dream about for your future. And so it was just God bringing me to that place of healing, you know, that I talked about that really helped. And then I did, like, I just had this piece and people would say, how are you doing? And I'd say, I have a piece about it.

And they'd look at me like, yeah, yeah, Sunday school, you know, the answer, get out your flannel board. And I would say, no, it's the kind of peace that comes after war. Like, I have fought through this thing.

I have these scars to prove it. It is that kind of peace. But God has done something that I could never do on my own. What did your conversation sound like with God in those days? It depended on the day. I mean, early on, a lot of times it was like, what in the world are you thinking?

Where are you? And why are you answering other people's prayers and not mine? I was confused about that. Or am I wrong?

Am I asking for something that's actually I'm not supposed to be asking for? I think a lot of it was just confusion. And I think there was a trust underneath. But I also I wasn't afraid to tell God, like, today, I'm mad. Today, I'm sad. Today, I'm completely confused because I just found out another person doesn't even want to have a baby.

He's having a baby. And I just sort of processed all those emotions with them. And that was a gift. But it wasn't all nice Sunday school prayers by any means. Was it ever a crisis of faith? Is there a God?

You know, there wasn't. And I don't want to say to anyone who's listening who's gone through that. I've had other moments in my life where I've had what felt like a crisis of faith. But for whatever reason in that journey, no, I just felt his presence with us in a way that I can't explain. I felt like this story was still being written. Do you remember a time where you felt like, whoa, wait, I'm content? Yeah, I do. I got to that.

I was like, if this is it, then I'm good. Like, I'm going to keep writing. We are birthing businesses together. We're both entrepreneurs. We are bringing things into the world together. We're parents. It just doesn't look like the world tells me that it has to look. And I think we would have been OK if that had been the end.

I think we would have been OK. So tell us how you met the young woman who is today your daughter. Yes. So one evening I watched like a 20-20 special about foster kids who age out of the system. And I just thought, that is not OK. Like, what do you mean they turn 18 and they kick you out and they say, have a nice life. Like, who is going to walk these people down the aisle? Who's going to rock their babies?

Who's going to help them figure out their careers? Because really, we have parents longer as adults most of the time than we do even as kids. And it just was one of those things I could not stop thinking about. And so people would ask us, have you thought about adoption? And eventually I said, yes, but if we adopt, we're adopting a 20-year-old.

And so that would make people look at us like we were crazy. But eventually one of my friends said, well, do you know about saving grace? And it turned out that there is a transitional living home for foster girls who age out of the system or would otherwise be homeless being built in our town. So I emailed the founder out of the blue and said, I have this crazy dream of adopting a 20-year-old.

She's like, I have this crazy dream of building this transitional home. And so we got together for a conversation. I still remember sitting on these ice chests in this living room that was still under construction and just sharing like our God-sized dreams. And then life got busy.

My posting really took off. And it was kind of in the back of my mind, but it was several more years. And then Becky, the founder, invited us to a banquet celebrating the accomplishments of some of the girls. And we went and Lavelle, who's now our daughter, was there. So we met her that night.

It wasn't any big deal. It wasn't like the heavens parted and we knew right away. But all the girls actually got one of my books, which I realized the other day, the title of the book she got was called Opening the Door to Your God-Sized Dream. So Lavelle started reading my book and loved it and texted me, found my number somehow.

And that's how it started. And I said, can we have lunch sometime? She was like, OK.

So I went over there and had lunch with her. And I remember at the end, she said, do you have kids? And I gave her the short version and she said, well, you can just be my mom.

And so that was kind of the start of it. Then she met Mark. And over the next few months, it just became clear that she was our daughter. She was supposed to be part of our family. Tell us her story. So the short version is she was in and out of foster care. She was homeless before she went to Saving Grace. And she just did not have parents in any kind of real sense. And so she, like us, had kind of been like, OK, this is my story.

I'm going to figure out how to make peace with it. She was really just in survival mode when we met her. But she always still, like we did, had that longing inside that maybe this isn't the end of my story.

Maybe God is going to do something else. And so she's a remarkable young woman, resilient and brave, has a huge heart, which you would think after all she'd been through, she'd be in total lockdown. But it just became clear to all of us that we were supposed to be a family. What about her faith journey? How did she come to faith? She had not been a Christian very long when we met her. She came to faith when she was 18. And so that was a big part of her story, too. She says she became a believer when she was homeless in the backseat of the car where she was sleeping. And so, yeah, she was new to faith, relatively new to faith and figuring that out, too. And so what was that like bringing her? I mean, Mark, were you like in on this from the very beginning when Holly comes home?

I think I found our daughter. I was, you know, it was kind of like, OK, let's see where this goes. Yeah.

So you were game. I mean, I was open to it, but I was like, OK, this is a huge change for us because we were comfortable where we were at. Yeah. You know, but I mean, comfort, you don't want to always be comfortable.

But I can think as a husband, there'd be part of me going, I kind of like just having us and not having somebody else to have to share with. Yeah. Yeah.

It crossed my mind. It's like, you know, hey, it's just us, too. We can go and do and and, you know, we've been blessed and we can share what we have with other people. And, you know, Lavelle chapter comes along and tends to be one of those people. And did you guys have conversations like this could be difficult or messy? Well, we knew it was going to be difficult and messy because when we first met Lavelle, she was like a brick wall when it came to letting people in. She had really hardened herself in a way she needed to in order to survive. And so it wasn't just that we met and she instantly let us in.

It took a long time for her to believe that we actually wanted to be in her life. Like she ran a half marathon not long after we met her and we went and we waited for her at the finish line and we cheered her on and she finished and she was like, why are you all here? And we're like, to cheer for you? And she's like, why? But why? And we're like, because we want to support you.

But why? Like she couldn't wrap her mind around. She'd never had that. She'd never had that.

She'd never had someone cheering her on in life. I mean, she had. She'll talk about teachers and different people God strategically placed in her life.

So I wouldn't say not at all, but not people who'd said we're here in this parental kind of capacity potentially. And so it took a while for her to let us in. And that was challenging. Was there a moment when you, you know, you look back where, well, here's the day or the moment where it seems like she really does believe and trust us? Yeah, I think that happened one night when we were already in bed and Lavell was actually spending some time with us and she moved in for the short time she was there. And she'd come home later when she was asleep and she spilled some ice on the floor and just made this ruckus. And I think it scared her. And she thought we'd kick her out the next morning because I guess it's happened to her before. So I think another two is when she broke one of our baking sheets for casserole dishes. Yeah. And stuff.

Those two times are what I thought of too. Yeah, she'd come in, our ice maker was cranky, so it had made noise, got all over. So I went out to check on her just to make sure she was okay. And she was on the kitchen floor frozen. And I was like, what is going on? And she thought we would kick her out for something like that because that's what she had experienced.

And that broke my heart because I thought she still doesn't believe yet that we just love her. And then years later at family dinner, we had this huge casserole dish and, you know, it's glass and if you hit them just right, they just shatter. And so it shattered all over that same kitchen floor. It's that we all got down on our knees and we were cleaning up. But when it happened, I watched her to see what is she going to do because it felt so similar.

And she threw back her head and laughed. And I was like, we're there. We're there. If she can break that pain and not question our love, we have come a long way. At what point did the two of you decide we need to do more than just cheer her on? We need to give her our name and make her part of our family. Yeah, it's so strange because it wasn't like a one time thing.

You know, you think it's a black and white yes or no, we're in or out. We just kept spending time together and it just felt like it happened really naturally. And then we decided because she was about to get married and there are some other complications that we decided changing her name was going to be the next step.

And so we went to the courthouse and had her last name changed to ours. And so we called that Girth Day. It's August 28th. We celebrated every year like a birthday. Our granddaughter was born on Girth Day.

Oh, that's so cool. So that was like God saying, you thought my timing was off for the whole time I had it down to the exact day. And I'm thinking Girth Day is 8-28 and Romans 8-28 says all things work together for good for those who love God, who are the called according to his purpose.

So there's that to add into the Girth Day miracle when she became a girth. When you went to her and said, we want to adopt you, what did she say? Well, she kind of said it to us too. You know, it felt very like two-sided, you know, that we decided together we're going to be a family. And so I love that, that it was so, it felt mutual the whole time. And I think that's different when you have a little kiddo, they don't have the capacity as much to engage. But when you've got a, by now 21 year old, she's like, I want to do this, let's do this. So she's choosing you as well. Yeah.

And so that was really beautiful too. It didn't feel like we were rescuing her. And if that was the case, she was rescuing us at the same time.

What do you mean? Well, I think that we never saw her as someone like who needed us. I knew she'd be all right.

She's incredibly resilient. She would have found a way forward and we would have been all right. But it felt like we chose each other, that we chose being a family. How is your life different with her being in your family?

It's definitely more active. But now it's, it's encouraging and, you know, enjoy it, enjoy spending time seeing the grandkids. You know, I want to be a little careful here because anytime we've talked about adoption on family life today, there can be this romantic, heroic, you do this and everybody is happy and they all cheer and they all live happily ever after. It doesn't always work that way. Sometimes you don't know what is behind the curtain when, when you make this choice. It's a painful choice for a lot of parents to make. But when you make this choice, you're saying for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, it's almost like a marriage vow. You went in with your eyes open to the fact that there might be some hard moments on the other side of this journey.

Yeah. And it's interesting that you say marriage vow because we actually finalized the adoption, like the new birth certificate part this year. And we got to sign a random court date and it was our 20th wedding anniversary.

And I was like, God, you did it again. Like that's the day both of my people became legally mine forever. So, so your daughter was how old on your 20th wedding anniversary? 27.

Okay. I'm just trying to make sure everybody understands the chronology here. So, but yes, it was, it was, we had a hard year last year. It felt like we kind of did her teenage years.

And last May, not this May, but the one before we had a knockdown drag out fight. I mean, we just did interviews about how I'm an introvert and I yelled and pounded the table and said words I don't always say. And we finished and I was like, I've wrecked this. Like I've completely wrecked this. And she looked at me and she was like, I feel so loved.

And I was like, what in the world? But it was like, she needed to know I was that engaged that like I could be so mad at her and still love her at the same time. Because I don't think she'd still ever experienced that. She had never really had that. She had experienced us choosing not to be angry and loving her, but she had not experienced mom who never gets mad at anything is furious at me and pounding the table. And she still loves me. She felt like a true daughter. Yeah, she was like, y'all are all in. And so that was a turning point for us. And that was seven years in almost. So it hasn't all been challenging.

But yes, of course. And if Lavelle were sitting here, she would tell you things that we've done that have made her crazy, you know, because you get these people in your life when you're already grown up and you got your own way of doing things and thinking about things. And she's an extreme extrovert.

We're both introverts. I mean, you can't bring a bunch of people together and just expect it to all. It's like a crock pot. It takes some time.

You just give it time. And it is like a marriage, too. And it would be easier, I think, to walk away.

Yeah. You know, she's not my biological daughter. We're really mad right now. We've now seen the worst side of better and worse. And it's not working out.

We made a mistake and you said, I'm staying, but I'm not going to be quiet. And she said, I feel love. That's beautiful. The whole year I would pray about it. And I would picture this tetherball set in my childhood backyard. There's the pole and then there's the ball. And I felt like God said, just be the pole. Be the pole. Like sometimes she's going to be wrapped so tight around you, you're going to feel like you cannot breathe.

Sometimes she's going to be so far out you don't know where she is or what she's doing. And just be the pole. And that's what I did. And I told her that.

She knows that now on the other side of it I said, I was supposed to be your pole. And so that's what we did. You know, there are two things that I think your story is remarkable.

Two things that are the takeaway for me. First, like you said, there are kids every day aging out of the foster care system with no safety net. And we have to think together as the church about how we help. And that doesn't mean we go out and adopt everybody.

But it does mean that we have to be engaged in this. These are human beings in need. And it's what Jesus would move us towards. And so I know there are churches, I know there are programs in cities doing these kinds of transition houses. Churches can help support that.

Individuals can help support that. This is something we need to be alert to and need to be drawn to. And Holly, I want to say thank you for obeying and listening to the Holy Spirit's nudge when you watched the 2020 segment. Because that was a Holy Spirit kind of opening your heart a little bit. And sometimes we can shut that door, but you are open to walking into it. And that's really the second thing that comes to mind as I hear your story is not everybody is called to adopt a 20-year-old. But some people may have never thought of that.

Yeah. And it may be that I've talked to people over the years who have listened to Family Life Today and they said, there was that one program where you guys were talking about this and I'd never thought about it and God pricked my heart. I think there are some hearts being pricked right now. And some couples who are going to have some hard conversations. Some wives who are going to go home to their husbands tonight and he's not going to know what were you listening to today. But she's going to say, I wonder if this is something.

Maybe you know an 18- or 19-year-old who's out doing life on their own. And maybe it's not adoption, but maybe it is stepping into their lives and saying, we'll be the safety net for you. We'll be the pole.

That's right. And we'll let you see a different kind of life. It's like LaValle hadn't seen what family dinner looks like until she had been with us. And she would say, y'all let me just watch you. You let me in your house and you let me watch you.

And that is powerful. And I would say for her, because I don't want it to sound like it was all us doing the hard work, because she has done the hard work of keeping her heart open, of making choices, like going to saving grace. She is now, she finished college. She's now getting a master's degree in counseling. She has taken in an 18-year-old who just aged out of the foster system and is helping her finish high school this year. So we have an 18-year-old granddaughter.

The math is all off in our family. But she's paying it forward even. And that is her heartbeat. If she were sitting here, she would say, kids in the foster system and aging out, they just need one person to say, you matter. I see you.

I hear you. You have a place in someone's life. And that she would say, it can start as mentorship. Like just do whatever you can do.

If you can have a kid over to your house for dinner once a month, then that's impactful. And so just start with whatever is possible. And then if God has more, He will make that happen and He'll make it clear to everyone involved. It felt like we didn't do anything, as strange as that sounds.

And I would say in a way, Lavelle would say the same. It felt like we just kept taking the next small step, because it was a scary thing. Like if you had told me this is your story and how it's going to end, I would have been like, what? But now it makes complete sense to me. It feels completely normal that we did this.

And so if someone's listening and is hesitant, I'd say just do the next small step and don't worry about the rest. God will take care of you. What a girth day legacy. Seriously, it's so beautiful. And here are the four words that are echoing in my head from the end of Romans chapter 12. Overcome evil with good. And that's what you guys have done. You stepped in with good in the midst of evil circumstances that Lavelle had lived with all her life. And you overcame the evil in her life with the good that you brought. Bless you guys. Thanks for sharing your story.

Thanks for letting us. And I want to make sure our listeners know, on our website at familylifetoday.com, we have resources available to help you if you're struggling with infertility. There are resources to help you through that if you are thinking about adoption.

There are resources available for that as well. Go to familylifetoday.com and look at the articles, the books, the links to past Family Life Today programs that you can listen to as podcasts. Again, our website is familylifetoday.com. A quick reminder, we mentioned this earlier today, but we're hoping to hear from many of our Family Life Today listeners during the month of December. This is a critical month for ministries like ours, and we're hoping to take full advantage of a matching gift that's been made available, a $2 million matching gift fund. Every time you make a donation here in the month of December, whatever donation you make will be matched dollar for dollar until we get to that $2 million fund. And these funds are what will determine what family life is able to do in the year ahead. So if you're a regular Family Life Today listener and you can make a year-end contribution, maybe you can do a little extra this year since there are some who can't do anything.

Think about that if you would. And when you make a donation, in addition to your donation being matched, we have a couple of thank you gifts we want to send you. My book, Love Like You Mean It, is one of those gifts and a flash drive that has more than 100 of the best Family Life Today radio programs of all time. We'll send those out to you upon request when you make a donation online at familylifetoday.com or when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY, and we look forward to hearing from you. And we hope you have a great weekend. Hope you and your family are able to worship together in your local church this weekend. And I hope you can join us on Monday when we're going to talk to our friend Nancy Guthrie about how God does some of his best work in us and through us when we are completely empty.

We've got nothing left, and I think a lot of us are feeling that way, this year especially. I hope you can tune in for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team.

On behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. Have a great weekend. We'll see you Monday for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.