Real Men are Vulnerable

Nathan Clarkson remembers the time his dad pointed him toward a vision of purpose for his life. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine.

You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. Ephesians 2 10 says, We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which he prepared beforehand that we would walk in them. Do you know the good works God created you to walk in?

We'll talk with Nathan Clarkson about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. You know, the subject we're getting into today, part of the debate that goes on around this subject is, is there something different about what it means to be a good man than what it means to be a good woman? In other words, when we're talking about virtue and goodness and who we're supposed to be, is there a gender differential between masculinity and femininity and how that gets lived out? Did God make us uniquely male and female, and what does that mean? And I thought I'd just roll that out at the beginning of the program. And ask Anne Scott.

No, I already answered my question. We need a woman's perspective on that. I mean, obviously, in my heart, immediately I go to yes, God made men and women uniquely, beautifully different. It's incredibly frustrating, you know, on one hand to understand a woman and understand a man, but it's so uniquely in the heart of God to make a man and woman different, yet they partner together in a beautiful way.

I've had this conversation with lots of people. You take something like nurturing, the quality of somebody being a nurturer, and we, I think, would all agree that that tends to be on one end of the gender spectrum more than it is on the other end of the gender spectrum. Sometimes.

Well, then that's the point. Should a man be a nurturer? Of course he should. Is a woman more designed by God to do that? Is it easier for her? Is it more natural for her? Probably.

So we have to make sure we're not getting all boxy and say men are all like this and women are all like that. I should introduce our guest, Nathan Clarkson, who's joining us this week. Nathan, welcome back to Family Life Today.

Thanks for having me. Nathan's written a book called Good Man, which is an exploration of what it is to be a good man. He's an author. He's a filmmaker. He's an actor. He's a poet. He's a renaissance man.

Absolutely. And I reflected back often on one of my sons who came home from a youth retreat, and he said, well, I'm confused. And I said, what are you confused about? He said, well, the speaker at the retreat was talking about the difference between guys and girls. And the retreat speaker said, you know, guys like sports and girls like to read books.

And my son was like, I like to read books and don't like sports that much. So what does that make me? And this is where we can get into stereotypes and confusion. And my son calls them genderalities that can be harmful and destructive. So we don't want to get so boxy as to say men are all this way and women are all that way. But as you were thinking about this book, you had to be thinking about, is there something uniquely masculine that I need to be tapping into?

And is it different than what God called women to be? I think as a creator, as an artist, one of the things that drew me to God is that he is a creator who designed things so beautifully and uniquely and diversely. I love just how colorful his entire creation is, how there's so many differences in it. And I think that's displayed beautifully in how he created men and women.

Both are incredible, beautiful creations that have purpose behind them and both are unique. And I think that's a wonderful and beautiful thing. And I think the world has twisted that and there has been abuse and hurt through people misusing his design.

But I do think that it's a beautiful design aspect that God creates things so uniquely. So I can't speak for women, but I can speak for men and I can speak for the things that I feel that God has called us to be. And I think where we often go wrong is when we're looking, you know, we've all heard the phrase, be a real man. You know, I've seen this in commercials. I've heard this in sermons.

I've heard this everywhere. I've heard real men, you know, don't eat salads, real men don't cry, real men do this or don't do that. And so I think many men have an image in their head of what that is, what a real man is. And I talk about this in my book about how I did for many, many years.

I had this idea, well, this is a real man. And a lot of it was from my friends or from TV or whatever it might have been. But I started asking a different question when I found that a lot of those images were failing me, failing to make me feel fulfilled or like I really was a real man.

And very often I felt like I was falling short. I love reading books. I love singing.

I love dancing. And I was bullied for that in high school. And I had to wonder, does that make me less of a man? Because a lot of the images we have are superheroes, which I love, by the way, big superhero fan, are what you see very often in media.

It'd be toxic and mean and can fight. And if that's the totality of what a man is, one, I think that's a pretty shallow image of a man. And it's just not something that ultimately brings me to my best self. So when I was searching for what a real man is at the start of this book, I decided to ask myself a different question rather than what a, quote, unquote, real man is. What culture tells me, what my family tells me, what my church tells me. I want to know what a good man is and I want to know who men were created to be.

And I guess, you know, this might be a cheesy answer, but ultimately is found in the person of Jesus, that everything he is is what I am trying to be. And that the completion of what a man should look like and be is found in him and his character and his decisions. Now, a woman would say the same for her.

So is it different for men and women, do you think? You know, that's the journey that you guys will have to go on your own. Oh, that's a good answer. I am not a woman's leader by any means. I will not step into that trap that you just laid for me.

Good try, though. But I will speak to men. It is interesting. When I read through your book, there's 15 characteristics, my favorite number, by the way.

Nice. And yet every one of them is distinctly male, but they could easily be read by a woman and say, I want to be adventurous. I want to be devout. Those are characteristics that are women as well. But you're going to obviously take it and say, okay, what does this look like from a male perspective?

What does it look like? I would even go as far as to say, like, the first one is the desire to be a warrior. I think some women have that desire. It just may look a little different. Do you know what I mean? That's a great way to put it.

It might look a little different. Yeah. Yeah, so talk about some of these characteristics.

I mean, you can pick any one you want. I mean, if you start with the verse in Samuel about man looks at the outward, God looks at the heart. Why is that important and where does that lay a foundation? Well, I think today men are having an identity crisis, especially those who aren't connected to God in any visceral or real way. Because I think on one hand, you have seen this rise over the past 30 years of culture saying do what you want, sleep with who you want, look at pornography, act prideful, be greedy, go after money. And then the very next day you have them saying men are toxic, men are evil, men are inherently bad. And every portrayal of men in media today is typically bad.

And you understand why. And then you look at the statistics, you look at the news stories, you see that men very often have become predatory and angry and abusive and violent. They've become depressed.

Huge rates of suicide are only on the rise. And so you see that men really are in an identity crisis right now. And I think a lot of this is stemming from they don't know who they were made to be. And so for me, this book was not written as something, well, I have all the secret knowledge and I'm going to share it with you. And this is how to become like me, a good man. This is more of a book that is detailing my own journey that is still continuing into trying to discover what that looks like. Yeah, I thought as I read, you put together a business plan for yourself for what you're going to continue to pursue throughout your life in order to be the kind of man you want to be.

Absolutely. This is not a line I have crossed into good man territory. This is a direction I am on. And I guess I wanted to write it to men to know that there are other people on this journey because I do feel a lot of the books that have been written to men are from a mountaintop perspective. Well, I'll tell you how to climb the mountain like I did. And so it was a down is looking down on the men who were in very often when I was young. I felt like I could never live up to the things that were in these books that you have these pastors and moral leaders who would be telling me how to be a man.

I was like, well, I am falling short every single day. I am not living up to what I am told is a good man. And so I wanted to write a book as someone who is still on the journey, who is still climbing, who is still searching, because I feel like that's something that's really needed right now for the young men growing up. I thought it was interesting that you said the truth is men of this generation have become passive. You just said that angry, selfish, predatory, violent and bored. But men were designed by a good creator with intent.

We were made to be dedicated, peaceful, serving, protective, kind and purpose driven. Like every woman would read that and think, yes, like that sounds so good. I want to I want to be with a man and follow a man who were on this road together. You are, honey. I am, I am. I totally am. Lucky you.

It was interesting. I told we were just with one of our sons this past week. And I said, you, Austin, you are a genius. And he said, no, I'm not.

And his little five year old daughter said, why do you say he's a genius? And I said, but Olive, you are a genius, too, because no one was created just like your dad. And no one was created just like you. Only you can be you. So you will be a genius at who you are. So if you try to become like someone else, you'll lose that identity and the genius that God has put in only you. And I think for men and for women, like it's becoming who God designed us to be. Exactly what you said. Can I say that those words, speaking those words into a man's life means so much.

You know, men don't often show emotion and we're kind of whatever. But the word spoken to me that you are a genius, you are good, you can do things. Those words have carried me on to actually want to try more and more.

So those are beautiful. Did you hear those words from your dad? Yeah, I was lucky enough to grow up in a place in which we were encouraged to speak words of life to each other. Yeah, because as I look through your book, it's the kind of book that a father would want to take his son through. I'm not saying a mother couldn't as well. I mean, I was raised by a single mom and my mom would grab a book like this from a mom's perspective and say, David, let me tell you what a man is and walk me through it.

But talk about that. How could a father use this kind of material to walk a son into manhood? I think this is a book I wanted to connect to men of all ages. And I think, you know, I look back and my dad would have these weekly nights that he would take us out and disciple my brother and I. And it wouldn't be, you know, a moral time or confess your sin time.

It would be a time in which we were able to ask questions and get to know God better and see exemplified what a man looks like. And so I think it's so important for fathers to be taking the time to spend with their boys and showing them, giving them, again, a vision of what a godly man looks like, what a good man looks like. And so I absolutely hope this can be a resource to dads that they can walk through at least a little bit of a structured way, some of the aspects of what it means to be a good man. Talk about your 13th birthday and receiving your sword. You know, that's such a great picture of giving a young man a vision for what he can be. And my 13th birthday and our family, both boys and girls, by the way, got something special.

But for my brother and I, when we turned 13, my dad gave us a real, like, full-on five-foot medieval knight sword and had a story behind it. And with it, my dad said, you are made to be a hero. This is something you can hang on your wall to remind yourself of.

You have a code to live by. You have a purpose to live into. And, you know, I look back and, you know, as knights in shining armor, as I was a kid, of course I'm going to like it. But also it did do something very deep inside of me. It gave me, again, it reinforced that I was made to live a good story. And the choices that I made would add up to what kind of story I told. And that sword in that moment is a continual reminder, even today at 31 years old, that I was made to live a story.

And the choices I make will determine what kind of story that is. Where is that sword today? It isn't my childhood room in Colorado. It is still hanging up right next to the poster of Superman. Hey, I'm just curious. What did your sisters get? They actually got little daggers, which is... Oh, see, I like that. But they also got rings.

So they got more than us. I'm a little jealous. So they got the warrior dagger and this beautiful, not a purity ring, but a beautiful ring to signify them growing into adult women.

That's beautiful. I know the sword image. I mean, you got an actual sword. And I never got one as a boy, but we did it for our son. I mean, that same son that Ann said, you're a genius, is the one who I think when he was 15 or 16 said, I want a pipe. A pipe. He was so unique. We're like, a pipe?

Because I don't want to smoke it. I just want to look at it and hold my hand. That's, bring the old theologians for sure. Yeah, he loved it.

He's in literature today anyway. That's beautiful. But the thing is, you know, when you think, and there's swords all over our house now.

It's awesome. They'll take maybe someday to their house, but they still have one hanging in my office. And it wasn't given to me. It was one of the swords I gave our kids.

And they literally had so many that some have left in the house. But I look at it when I'm in my office and I think as a man, it's an image that says, I am called to protect this woman and my legacy in a sense. Now, really Jesus is the only one that can do that, but he has entrusted me as a man. Not that he hasn't entrusted my wife as a mom, but there's a unique call on my life to hold that sword strong. I remember hearing Dennis Rainey 30 some years ago say, I think in a, probably from the stage, do not let your life be the door through which sin enters your family.

And I've never forgotten that, just this simple quote he said. And I picture myself literally standing at the front door of my house, protecting what's behind me and thinking, is sin going to come into my legacy through this door, me? Or am I going to stand there with this sword and say, no, I am called to act like a man, to be strong, to stand firm, to do everything in love.

That's a visceral call on a man, isn't it? Absolutely. I mean, that's what you're getting at in this book. A good man picks up that sword, even though it's hard and stands firm. And by the way, you have a whole chapter on it and he can't do it alone.

He's with brothers. Absolutely. In this book, I wanted to kind of address a lot of these aspects of men we take for granted.

It's like, oh, yeah. You know, I think for many years of my life, I had this idea that men did alone, that we figured out by ourselves that we don't need help, those kind of things. And so in this book, I wanted to address some of those aspects of men that we all just kind of just accept without thinking about.

And, you know, as I look back, the times I've tried to do it alone were the times that I ultimately end up in the worst and hardest place in my life. I think when you see men together, you see it in scripture very often. You know, Jesus didn't choose one man, he chose 12 to take his message to the world because he knew there was community, he knew there was support. And so I think there's something that really is special about men supporting men, about needing brothers and mentors. I'm so blessed to have people in my life who are wiser than me and people walking alongside of me, you know, even in the form of I have a therapist.

And I know that's kind of taboo for a lot of men now that, you know, to be emotionally invulnerable with someone and tell them the problems when you should have figured out yourself. But I have someone who speaks wisdom, godly wisdom into my life and I'm open with, I confess to, I talk to. And that's such an important part of my journey is that when I am humble enough, and again, Jesus reiterates humility and I think being in community and mentorship and around people requires humility. But ultimately, when I have opened myself up to people, wise people and allowed them in, I have found my life better off for having done that.

And I have found myself closer to following God in the life that he has called me to live. Every wife wants her husband to have that male friend. And yet so many men don't.

Why is that? Why don't they reach out? And is there something, I have two questions, is there something we can do as women to help that? You know, I've said this before, if there's anything that a wife or a mom or anyone can do, it would be when your husband or whoever it is in your life becomes vulnerable, don't punish his vulnerability. Because men already struggle with vulnerability.

And if we are confessing or talking or just talking about something really deep and hurting our life, I would encourage anyone, if a man is trusting you enough to open up and be vulnerable, respect that vulnerability and support him and love him in that because that's what a lot of men need. When you think of that image of a man standing, like I said, like let's say at the front door and a storm's coming or an enemy's coming and he's holding that sword to protect his family, I think a lot of times we think that man's strong. Man, look at him.

He's a warrior and I want to be that man. And I don't think we understand that man, five minutes ago, was on his knees. Or that man was sitting in a room with five other men asking questions and getting their wisdom.

And he may be standing there at that moment looking like he's alone, but he's not alone. I remember, I think it was Bob Carlyle. He's the one who wrote Butterfly Kisses. But this wasn't in that song.

There was another song he wrote. The lyric was, if you see me on my knees, it's not because I'm getting weak, I'm getting stronger. And we often see a man weak or in tears and we think they're weak and it's like, no, no, no, you're not seeing what's going on. He's meeting, could be a therapist, could be a buddy, could be Jesus. He's finding strength in Christ right here.

And when you see him standing at that doorway fighting that storm, it's out of that weakness that God's strength meets him to be able to lead and protect his family as he's called to do. Yeah, I want to pick up on that because I wondered if even in you saying, you know, I meet with a therapist, do you feel kind of like that feels a little unmanly to say that? There were a lot of hardships with my mental illness, but because there's a few things because of them have been blessings to me.

And because I had to accept very early on that I had things I was struggling with that I couldn't deal with on my own, be that my OCD or depression or whatever it was, I started seeing a therapist very early in my life. So I got over very quickly that this is not what a real man does because I saw the benefit and I knew how much I needed it. But I have felt that in telling people throughout the years that, oh, really, you know, guys don't do that's what girls do. Girls are vulnerable.

Men just, you know, they muscle up and just power through it. And I've heard men say, oh, I can never go to a therapist. I couldn't talk about my problems. I couldn't get vulnerable like that.

I'll just figure them out. And that always makes me sad because I know how much of a benefit it has been for me to have places in my life where I can be vulnerable. But absolutely, that's still something that I find a lot of men really struggle with. I think there are a lot of guys who we feel inside like if we can't do it on our own, there's something wrong with us. That men are supposed to be able to solve all their problems and not need input from the outside. And if we don't know all the answers, we're weak somehow. And can we just burst that bubble right here and just say, look, we're all messed up. We've all got weaknesses and flaws and we need one another and we need help.

And there's no shame. In fact, there is more shame in being a poser than there is in being a real man to say I need some help on this and I can't figure this one out on my own. And I remember a leader calling Marianne and me and asking if we would get together. He was going through a real struggle time in his life. He got the two of us and a couple other couples got together and said, here's what we're dealing with and we're not sure what to do and we need your counsel.

It was an extremely raw and vulnerable time. And I thought, first of all, it's wisdom and second of all, it's real strength to say I'm not just going to fake it and make everybody think I got this covered. I'm going to say I need help and get wisdom from others around me. And I would just add to the man that's listening right now, if you don't have men in your life, it's on you. Because it's really easy to say, well, you know, I couldn't find them at my church and I get it. But at some point, you've got to take a step and say, dude, I need help or I need a friend.

Can we be, you know, just take that journey. I know in my life, the men that God has brought into my life. And by the way, I went after them. And honestly, when I moved to Detroit in 85, they worked with Detroit Lions. I tried, I bet, seven different men's sort of small groups. And if I would have quit, I wouldn't have these men in my life. They weren't the right guys. There were different reasons why, but man, I kept pursuing and pursuing and found these guys. And we've been together over 25 years. We've raised our kids.

I've done their daughter's weddings, doing another one. I mean, it's just, and there's been real heartache and real brokenness. Two of our, I mean, these are men that if you came to our church and you saw me say, oh, those are the leaders and strongest men at that church.

And you'd be like, you have no idea. This guy's wife had an affair. This guy had an affair and their marriages have been saved because of this group. We've wept.

We've celebrated. And so many men don't have that. I'm just saying, dude, I'm looking you right in the eye saying, get men in your life.

It's in your book. Good men are brothers and they seek out brotherhood. You can't do it without them. It's on you to do it. God's got some men for you. Make the call, send the text, do whatever it takes. You're going to be a better man.

Your legacy is going to be changed because you step out and make it happen. Get five guys and say, I heard on the radio about this book. Maybe we could all go through it together.

Take a chapter. Go to, we were talking about Denny's earlier. There's still Denny's, right? Go to Denny's. Or go to a movie when the theater's open.

Absolutely. We've got copies of Nathan's book, Good Man, available in our Family Life Today Resource Center. You can find out more about the book. Order multiple copies when you go to familylifetoday.com or call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY to get your copy of Nathan's book.

Again, it's called Good Man. Look for it online at familylifetoday.com. Also, check out the video series that Family Life produced a few years ago based on Dennis Raney's book, Stepping Up, A Call to Courageous Manhood.

That's available for guys to go through as well, either in a socially distanced setting or online. Check out the Stepping Up video series when you go to familylifetoday.com. And again, order a copy of Nathan's book, Good Man. Call us if that's easier. Our number is 1-800-358-6329.

That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. Speaking of small groups, we have just started taking preorders for a new small group study for couples called Love Like You Mean It. This is based on my book, which is all about 1 Corinthians 13, the chapter on love, looking phrase by phrase at what real love is supposed to look like in a marriage relationship. This is a 10-part video series. There's an assessment that goes with it so you can see how you're doing, strengths and weaknesses, when it comes to loving one another in marriage. And if your group doesn't have 10 times to get together, maybe you've only got four or six or seven, whatever you want to do, there are ways to use this series and pick the topics that fit your group best. Find out more about the new Love Like You Mean It video series when you go to our website, familylifetoday.com. Or call if you have any questions. 1-800-FL today is the number, 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word Today. Now tomorrow we're going to talk about the characteristics of godly masculinity.

Is there a portrait we can look at, something we can see that says that's it, something we can aim toward? Nathan Clarkson is going to join us to help us think about that tomorrow. Hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.