When One Spouse Is a Saver and the Other a Spender

Are your views about money shaped more by your life experience or by your personality, your temperament?

Author Jeff Feldhahn says the research shows both are a factor. Both fresh out of graduate school. We were living in Manhattan. I was working at a big law firm and we had brought $135,000 of student loan debt to the marriage. This was in the mid-90s. And I was focused on just hammering away at that debt.

I wanted to get rid of that. And I was working all these hours all the time in order to preserve what I thought was my job to keep myself secure in that position so we could reduce this debt. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Anne Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine. You can find us online at familylifetoday.com.

Different people have different perspectives on money for different reasons. The question is, in marriage, can we figure out how to make our differences work for us instead of working against us? We'll talk more about that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. We've got our host Scrooge McDuck and his wife. Is that the appropriate way to introduce your husband? Well, I don't have a name. I don't have a character. I think a material girl. This is a very interesting way to start this program where Scrooge McDuck and the material girl are man and wife. But when that happens, there's conflict ahead. The fun thing, yeah, we're talking about money, and I think we have Scrooge McDuck and the material girl as our guests.

Am I right? Shanti and Jeff Falton are with us, and they're a little bit like the Wilsons in terms of money, and they wrote a book about it. I'm just here to support Anne.

That's the reason I'm sitting here. I know. But we've been talking about, for Love and Money, really, the book Thriving in Love and Money, and even the title's like, Can You Thrive in a Marriage with Money at the Center? And so let's keep going. This is a hot topic. Obviously, my wife needs your help.

No, we're kidding. We all need your help. But as you dove into the research and said, okay, we're going to find out what's going on in the world in marriages with money, we've already talked about it.

You had a big surprise. Remind us what that is, and then let's go from there. That when you're having tension around money, it's not about the money. When you're avoiding talking about it or whatever, it has nothing to do with that. It's about all this stuff running under the surface, all these other factors. You deal with those, suddenly, talking about money actually comes kind of naturally. And talking about it is what moves the needle in the relationship.

Yes. And we did, by the way, we should have mentioned that last time, that we actually statistically found that, that that is the factor that is the most important for the relationship, if you can talk about money. It's, believe it or not, the biggest obstacle to financial freedom and generosity and people being on the same page about tithing and all the other stuff that comes along with life and a healthy financial life. The biggest obstacle isn't that you don't know how to do a good budget, although maybe you don't, or that you have too much debt, although you might. The biggest obstacle is the inability of a husband and wife to sit down around the kitchen table and talk about it.

And there are all kinds of reasons why these things are hard to talk about. I grew up in a home where both of my parents had been through the Depression, and so they grew up with a money mindset of a scarcity. You've got to be thrifty. My mom loved to sew, and so she made clothes for all of us kids. My dad had this sense that if your kids are wearing clothes that mama makes, that's just a badge that says we don't have money at our house. So he was feeling threatened as a provider, feeling anxiety as a provider, because mom made clothes. Mom's thinking, I'm saving money for other things, plus I like doing this. And I remember that being a tension spot, but all of that goes back to stuff they learned in their family of origin, childhood patterns, what their own financial situations were. We don't recognize the kind of baggage that we bring into a marriage around money.

It's all there subconsciously, but it starts to come out as soon as we're asking a question. Where do you want to go on vacation this summer? Somebody says, well, a friend's got a cabin on a lake. We could go there.

I'm thinking maybe we could go to Cancun, right? And all of a sudden, it's on the table. What's going on here? That's even a great question, Bob, to ask one another of what was it like for your family growing up. Because I think we all have a story. Just as you had, Bob, I had a mom and dad who used to fight about money, and I can remember when I was four, my dad being so angry that he threw a chair across the room and broke it. So later in high school, it just made sense to me that my mom had given me a credit card, and whenever we would shop, she would wait and say, oh, your dad's home.

Let's not bring in our packages until he's gone. And so I carry that into my marriage. Is that a question to ask, or where do we start in the conversation? Yeah, I think it is a question to ask. But the interesting thing that the research kind of led us to was that family history, your origin story of how you view money, is not necessarily your experience that you had. Because we interviewed brothers and sisters maybe nine, ten, eleven months apart, and they had the same experience growing up, and maybe it was a difficulty in finances for the family. And the sister would say, you know, because of that, that's why I save everything, because I never want to feel what I felt as a kid. And you ask the brother, and he says, that's why I spend the way that I do, because I never want to feel that way of not having things. And so that family history doesn't even yield the same result. Well, it turns out it's not necessarily the history, it's how you responded to it. And so that is a great question to ask each other. You know, what is the background, and what did you feel about that?

What did you think? What were some of the things you decided, I never want to feel that way again? Or I'm always looking forward to the day when I have money because of whatever.

That'll help get at some of those things. It will, but the problem is we don't even ask that question because we just assume that our way is right. And that's the proper way to look at it. Because it's natural, it feels natural for us. One of the key things that we're touching on here, and Bob, your story was a perfect example of this with your parents, is that one of the big factors that's running out of the surface that we don't realize is that we're just not valuing what the other person values.

That we know we're different people, but for some reason we don't translate that into thinking that this other person might care about something different than me, and that might be legitimate, like it's okay that, for example, you have a desire to spend something and enjoy life, and he or she wants to save everything because she grew up with parents who have had the parents in the Depression, and so she wants to save everything, or whatever those factors are, that's very legitimate, both of those things. So when we were first married, we had both fresh out of graduate school, we were living in Manhattan, I was working at a big law firm, and we had brought $135,000 of student loan debt to the marriage. This was in the mid- Harvard was expensive. Yeah, mid-90s, and I was focused on just hammering away at that debt. Yeah, baby, pay it down.

I wanted to get rid of that. And I was working all these hours, all the time, in order to preserve what I thought was my job, to keep myself secure in that position so we could reduce this debt. Shanti wanted to spend time together. She wanted to enjoy New York. So we would try a couple of nights a week to get together and have dinner. And I mean it, I would leave the office, we'd have dinner, and then I'd head back to the office.

And it was always good, we found it as a time to talk, until the waiter came and said, can I get you anything to drink with your meal? And Shanti would order a Diet Coke. And I'd sit there- And he'd order water. And I'd order water. And in my mind I'm thinking, that's $4.50 right there. You know? And so I'm thinking, you know, okay. For a drink.

It bugs me a little. And finally I recover, and we're enjoying the meal. But you didn't say anything.

Of course not. And then the waiter comes back and says, can I get you anything else? And Shanti would say, I'd like another Diet Coke. And anyone who has lived in New York knows that there are no such thing as free refills in Manhattan. So he brings out another Diet Coke and automatically I'm adding it up and going, that's $9 on something you could have ordered water for. And by that time the conversation pretty much ended and I was feeling angry and annoyed. And then I'd go back to the office.

To make money to pay for Coke. Exactly. All right, Shanti. Let's hear your side. What do you mean her side? There isn't another side. There's always a good side.

Shanti always has a good side. Well, see, here's what we didn't know at the time. I didn't know he was sitting there fuming about paying off the student loan debt. And what he didn't know, we were newlyweds, he didn't really recognize until he was able to sort of articulate it. And we talked about it months and months later. Many spoiled dinners.

Many, many spoiled dinners later that he didn't know. I don't actually like the taste of water. I don't know why I'm kind of weird that way. I need a nice tea. I need a soft drink. And I literally, I finally was able to tell him, look, I just want to enjoy the meal. If I don't have some sort of soft drink with it, I just won't.

And I'd rather stay home and save the money rather than go out to a nice dinner and not be able to get a Diet Coke or whatever with it. And that totally changed it because he then knew why. And it was no longer in his mind a character flaw. It was just me valuing something different.

And that kind of aha moment is, as you can tell, that's super simple. It's kind of stupid. It's silly. But it's of those semi-stupid minor things that these marriage issues are made.

This is one of the reasons why this is such a source of friction in marriage. We don't recognize until we stop and really think about it, what we do with money is a picture of what matters to us. Saving it means we value security and stability and longevity and a nest egg and we feel better if we've got that. If we spend it on this, it means we value recreation. If we spend it on this, it means we value looking good. If we spend it on this, so really we're expressing every time we pull our wallet out, this is what really matters to me. I mean, it's funny to me what I'll be thrifty about and what I don't care about.

Marianne and I laugh about this all the time. I have an app on my phone that's called GasBuddy. Do you have GasBuddy on your phone?

You do not. So GasBuddy, and this is not a plug for them, but they've got this app and it will tell you what are the lowest gas prices in town. Oh, no, you've just thrown gasoline on a flame, my husband.

Oh, no. Look at these guys, they're bright and I guess. So you'll drive 20 miles to save 10 cents. If I can find that, you know, it's a nickel cheaper a gallon over here and I will say, well, we're going to go there. And Marianne is like, so we got 12 gallons and it's a nickel cheaper, so we just, what, we saved $1.20 there, Bob?

But we spent an hour. Yeah, and I recognize that there's something quirky about that in me. Yes. But somehow it's hardwired in that this is where you look for the low prices, you shop. I'm also aware of the fact, I'm doing too much confessing here, but I'm aware of the fact that if I get a bargain presented to me, it's less about whether I even like or want the thing. It's more, am I a shrewd buyer if I buy that thing, whether I like it or want it or not, right? It's if I just saved 70% on something, I don't have to want it. It's what I just saved makes me a winner just in, I don't need the thing, I just need to know I just am a winner like that. This is perfect because when you talk about not valuing what the other person values, those values aren't just like, you know, do you value the big vacation in Cancun or the mountain lake?

Right. It's literally things like valuing whether there's a deal on it versus not or valuing do you buy the tickets to the movie online ahead of time in order to reserve your space and not have to stand in line or do you think that's ridiculous to pay an extra $1.50 for that or whatever? And it's not that time is money.

Of course you go stand in line for an hour. And those are all different things that matter. And most of the time, unless you're talking about those cases that are beyond what we can cover here, like somebody has a gambling addiction or, you know, somebody is a shopaholic because those do happen and they're beyond what we can cover here. But those are rare. Most of the time, those things are not objectively right or wrong.

They are just different. And we have to honor that in each other. Sometimes we think, don't we, that our value is objectively right compared to their value.

Like I would have this going on in my mind. She wants to spend on something. And I'm not saying what she wants is wrong, but I'm thinking that could go in a bank, that could go toward retirement. I'm valuing saving and the future. Hey, that's biblical. I can give you verses to back up that. I can't give you very many to say that she needs that purse when she has 18 others, you know, sitting in the closet that she doesn't use.

Again, I'm not throwing my wife under the bus. I really don't have that. No, she doesn't. Maybe shoes? Shoes?

Shoes. We just hit the jackpot. But you know what I mean?

And again, I'm not saying right or wrong, but I have felt that I'm guessing most spouses have thought, no, no, no, this is more than I value, she value, he value. This is right. This is even backed up biblically. Now what are we talking about? Let me, Jeff, you might want to tell them what you felt right when the pandemic first hit and the economy had to completely shut down. And because you came to me and told me something, it was hard to hear.

Yeah. But Shanti often saying back in the times was saying, you know, kind of at this moment in time, a lot of savers are feeling pretty darn vindicated because this is what you save for events like this and you prepare for them. And we didn't have that.

We didn't have that significant amount of cushion that I felt comfortable with. So I came to Shanti and I said, you know, I got to tell you, the past couple of weeks I've been feeling a little bit of resentment. Quite frankly, you know, thinking about last year, you know, we ate out all these times. And you drank those daikos?

She drank those daikos. We went to Disney World with the kids. You know, if we hadn't done those things, we would have several thousand more dollars in the bank account right now.

Which we could use because all our income shut down, you know, like all the events are canceled. And I kind of left it as that. And then over the next week, it took me a while. But because of this research, because of the stuff that I've been learning, I began asking myself the questions of why did we do these things?

Why? What was important to Shanti? And I finally came back to her and I said, you know, I had been looking at all of those things as a net cost. As opposed to a benefit. For example, what we gained from eating out as a family, having those fun experiences. What we gained from being at Disney was a great bunch of memories. And now when we're in this pandemic and we were all sitting on top of each other in the same house, we liked being around each other.

We had this great connection and fun. And, you know, there was an investment that she was willing to make the year before in a lot of these things. And that investment costed money. But the investment in experiences, in family closeness, in all of those things that I would have probably chosen maybe different things like a free picnic in the park. But nevertheless, what she was choosing helped to benefit our family. Well, there's two big things that I heard, Jeff.

One, that you came and shared your frustration. Like, that's big. And you probably wouldn't have done that back in the day. And I don't think most of us do.

We just kind of stuff it. But even after kind of contemplating and the realization that you came to, that was laying down your pride of saying, wow, look at the things that we've gained. And guess what that did for me? Because he was able, and this is a little microcosm of what we found in the research, is that because he was able to tell me what he was thinking and feeling, the stuff under the surface stuff.

That's level five communication right there. It was amazing. I mean, really. He's an amazing guy. He is an amazing guy.

Absolutely. But because you were able to do that, honestly, it changed me because I was so used to almost 25 years before we started this research. And I was so used to being defensive every time he came to talk about money. I just shut myself down. And instead, suddenly I'm hearing, wow, I see what value you were placing on this. I see why you cared about doing this. And, yeah, I might have handled things differently, but, you know, now we're stuck on top of each other and we like each other and we enjoy being together.

And I really, you know, even though maybe you still disagree with certain things, I really understand where this came from. And it made me want to then open myself up to what he valued and to be able to say, look, I know this time has got to be so nervous for you. And for you to be thinking about what does this mean that all of our speaking events are canceled. And, you know, the fact that we don't have as much cushion as we wanted coming into a time like this and I'm sorry.

And what can we do now to be able to talk through it and go, all right, let's just shut down a whole bunch of spending until we see how this is all going to play out. Things that would then reassure you. I would have probably done that before because I don't want to be irresponsible, you know, be wise, but I wouldn't have talked about it.

I wouldn't have said those words and he wouldn't have known that that was in my heart for him. It took you to a whole new level of intimacy and trust, which you would have never expected. And oneness, as we talked about. It is interesting you said earlier that conversation really wasn't about money, even though it was about money. It was a deeper deal. And I love that you had the perspective of what did we gain from the thing you thought was a loss. We've had the exact same experience.

I don't want to admit it because it means Ann's right. But early in our marriage, and again, this is 40 years ago, she highly valued vacations. She said, my family took vacations. I think that's something we should do with the boys as they grow up. And I'm like, I went on one vacation my entire life.

And again, here's the value. I didn't even know it at the time. Mom and dad married, airline pilot, rich, builds houses in New York City or outside New York. Gated community, divorce. Mom becomes an elementary teacher and no money. And scarcity all through the rest of my life. And there's this built-in fear I don't ever want to live there again. So my mom and I took one vacation.

I can remember it. And so Ann's like, hey, we got to take vacations. I'm like, no, we don't have the money.

We're not going to have the money. She demanded we do this. And she was right. It doesn't have to be an expensive vacation. There's a lot of ways to get in a tent and let the rain fall all over you, which we did.

Anyway, long story short, we did vacations every year. And I can tell you, as we're driving, wherever we're going, I'm mad. Right? The worst.

Yes. And we're in a big fight. And it's like, oh. Sometimes I would take me to the third day before I'm like, okay, this is actually fun. And anyway, all I know is our sons were getting married. We have these conversations. You know, what are you going to miss? What do you remember most? Every one of them. The only thing they remembered.

All our family vacations. And Ann would be like, told you. Told you. But it's just what you did. It's like, it didn't break the bank.

No. It really didn't. And it was a wise choice to value something that she valued, which was something the family valued. And you know what?

The other thing, though, just to say this out loud. There are things that matter to us that aren't necessarily building family connectedness that aren't necessarily wrong either. I mean, one of the things that we've created to go along with the book is a curriculum. And one of the people that we interviewed, they had had this knockdown drag out fight about some of the things they would do on a vacation. Because she's the saver and she'd be like, we have some credit card debt and it needs to be paid off. And so we, okay, fine, we'll go on vacation because we've already paid for it, but we are going to eat every meal at McDonald's. Like we are going to eat every meal at fast food. Well, her husband, he happens to be a foodie. Like he loves being able to find cool places and to be able to really enjoy unique food.

And that's just something that gives him joy. And for her to recognize, okay, that's legitimate and to be able to talk about it led them to a compromise where, okay, we'll go on vacation and we won't cancel that. And he says, you know what, I don't need to have an expensive foodie experience. I'll go to all the little local hole in the wall seafood places at the beach that, you know, the little tour guides recommend.

I just don't want to go to McDonald's for every meal. And that made her see he is honoring what she values, which is let's come back from this vacation with the ability to continue to get out of debt. So it's all about talking about it. The thing that has been so good about all of the work you've done for years has been that you help us understand one another better with your research. It's like, now I get why you're this way.

I just thought you were flawed or you were annoying. And now I understand, oh, this is how you are. So when the women read For Women Only, they went, oh, so this is how men in general think when we read For Men Only.

It's like, oh, this is how women think. This book, Thriving in Love and Money, helps us understand better, oh, this is what you value. This is what's important to you. And that understanding alone is more than half the battle to reducing the conflict and the stress and the tension. The assessment that you've developed, which we've got a link to on our website at familylifetoday.com, folks can go online and take that for free.

That gives you insight. And then your book, Thriving in Love and Money, we're making that available to any Family Life Today listener who'd like to get a copy this week. If you can help with a donation to support the ministry, the book is our thank you gift to you. In exchange for your support, go to familylifetoday.com and say, I think we would benefit from getting a copy of that book. Make an online donation or call to donate. Again, the website is familylifetoday.com, or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY.

Jeff and Shanti's book is called Thriving in Love and Money. Just request your copy, and we're happy to send it to you as a way of saying thanks for your ongoing support of this ministry. We couldn't do what we do without folks like you making this possible, so we're grateful for your partnership with us. And then I want to mention one additional resource we are making available this week, absolutely free. It's something we call Taking Your Marriage from Good to Great. It's an online resource. It gives you access to a couple of video-based mini-courses, one on how to resolve conflict when it occurs in marriage, another course we call Lightbulb Moments in Marriage. Then there are messages available to you from Paul David Tripp, Gary Chapman, Bodhi Bakham, Julie Slattery, great messages designed to strengthen your marriage. And there are downloadables, conversation starters, questions for conversation between husbands and wives.

And there's a bonus incentive for you to engage with this content. Everyone who accesses it will be automatically registered for a giveaway we're doing. One couple is going to join us here at Family Life for an upcoming Family Life Today recording session, and then dinner that night with Dave and Ann Wilson. So go to familylifetoday.com, find out about the Taking Your Marriage from Good to Great resource.

It's totally free, no purchase necessary, all the contest rules are available online. Again, go to familylifetoday.com for more information, or if you have any questions, call us at 1-800-358-6329. That's 1-800, F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. Now, tomorrow we're going to talk about why it is that people who you might look at and say, well, they seem to have enough money to be able to cover everything. Why do they still have money problems?

And that's a reality for a lot of people. Jeff and Shanti Feldhahn will be here again tomorrow. I hope you can tune in as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.