Respecting Girls

As a young man, Vicki Courtney's son was looking at pornography regularly. She became aware of that later in his life after he had broken free from that addiction. And she asked him if she had failed him in some way as a mother. He really answered that question to me, like, what could I have done differently?

And this may sound hopeless to moms, but he said nothing. You did everything you were supposed to do. You were having the conversations.

This is how powerful it is, he said. But at the end of the day, let me tell you what I caught from you. I remember your story, Mom, of redemption. I remember you telling me how God worked that out in your own life.

And so I remember you telling me that it's never too late to begin again. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Anne Wilson.

I'm Bob Lapine. You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. What can we be doing today as parents to help prepare our children for those times when they will fall, when they'll fail?

How do we make sure they understand that God provides forgiveness and redemption? We'll talk more about that today with Vicki Courtney. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today. Thanks for joining us. Am I allowed to talk this time? You know, you contributed – Can my friend talk?

She put her hand up. I like that. You should do that at home more. Excuse me. You contributed yesterday, so we'll let you contribute again today.

Oh, thanks. And I thought we'd start with a little Name That Tune. Name That Tune.

I'm going to play this song, and let's see who can get the song first, okay? Vicki, are you good at this? This is one of the conversations we're supposed to have with our sons? This is one of the conversations. Yes, right here. This is the conversation.

Oh, yeah. Do you know what this is? What is it, Dave? Can you name this tune? I can't get the name. All my friends had judged me for something they didn't understand. Got to get to the chorus. Yeah. All the women in the mong of my heart.

This is the Cornelius Brothers. I told them, treat her like a lady. Treat her like a lady. So there it is. Wow, this takes us – Bob, you're a little older than us.

Yeah, that's true. You just dated yourself. Vicki, that's too old for me. I remember my parents listening to that.

Oh, thank you. It's not that old. The title of the song is Treat Her Like a Lady by the Cornelius Brothers and Sister Rose from back in my day, okay? But that's one of the – What, 1935?

Oh, stop it. That was probably early 60s. That's – let me see what – Yeah, I would say late 60s maybe. No, let me – I think – I bet I'd say 62. I was not in the – Sixty-two?

Hang on. Seventy? This song came out in 1971. Wow. Okay, so it's not the 60s.

It's not 1935 like you – You were like six years old then too, weren't you? But forget the song. Eight, eight. The conversation.

Okay. Teaching our sons – How to treat a lady. How to treat a young woman with respect and dignity. Is that what you're supposed to do? Play the song over and over? Tell them that's how you do it? That is not how you do it. That's why Vicki's here. She's here to help us.

Good thing we have an expert. How did you do it? I want to know how you did it with your boys. How did you teach your boys to treat girls? Well, you know, when you have a model in the home like me – Oh.

You just say, boys, copy this. Is that how I did it? Yeah, you were really good at that.

No, I'm kidding. She's trying to be nice. Well, you know, Vicki said it earlier. I started by sharing mistakes and how I didn't treat women the way they should have been treated as a high school boy. And then later – so I started with honesty and then tried to have conversations every day. You know, it wasn't one conversation that talked about cherishing a woman. I didn't know until I became a follower of Christ that God had a standard, that His Word laid out what it looked like for a man to cherish and love a woman. I was the guy that did it the way the world did. I thought women were objectified and didn't know any better, and I'm not blaming anybody but myself.

But when you step into Christ, there's a whole new – you see her as a woman made in the image of God. That changes everything. You shared mistakes with your boys like when they were nine and ten. Were you telling them I made mistakes with girls? Yes, but not specifics until they were – Until they were older. Almost college age. Yeah.

High school. That's powerful. At the same time, you were talking about the fact that you didn't do it right. And you were involved in trying to help coach your boys on how to treat you first so that they'd know how to treat other women, right?

Right. And you know, even as you have toddlers who get angry or who will hit, I remember taking their hand and saying, you will never hit a woman or a girl. Or your job is to protect girls and to protect women. Even that – like toddlers, you're teaching them it's your job to stand up for. It's your job to protect.

And even when there's like bickering and fighting, it's like they see their job as being one of protection, of love, of care. We can start those conversations when they're little. And Dave, you were great at respecting me, of honoring me and loving me when your boys were little. I do remember – I don't know what day it was, but my oldest son, I think – hopefully he's not listening right now. But I remember him being disrespectful to Ann when he was a teenage boy, probably 15, 16, in the kitchen.

I can see it just with his words, getting mouthy, disrespectful, and I just sort of lost it. Like, you will never speak to your mother, my wife, that way. And in a sense, there was a sense to say she is of value, not just because she's a mom, but because she's a woman. And I think that stuck.

It sort of caught him off guard, like, okay, this is real. Vicki, what's your counsel to parents as they think about you're bringing your sons up, you've got to teach them how to respect one another, how boys should respect girls, and how they should handle themselves around these issues? Well, I think, you know, we're talking about chivalry, and it's not a word that you hear much anymore. That's true. And that's sad to me.

Me too. But the conversation has to change. We have to even expand it because the truth is we've got all sorts of things, again, happening in this generation that we didn't have to deal with in our generation, or maybe we were just starting to with our own sons. But I think about, like, the trend of sexting. I think about, you know, pornography. And I know we talked about in an earlier episode how teenagers today don't even really think, by and large, that pornography is wrong, that viewing pornography is wrong. And so one of the things we need to do with our sons is help them connect the dots that, you know, when you view pornography, you are devaluing a woman, and that we are made in God's image, and you are showing disrespect and devaluing the dignity of that woman. And it's not something they necessarily think about.

And certainly, you know, I mean, they're not hearing from their peers. But, you know, I think about stories of moms who've shared, you know, their daughter, they saw their daughter's phone, or some who saw their son's phone and saw, you know, where some sexting was going on, and that's become more common. One conversation that I know this was starting up by the time, I guess, my youngest son was coming down the pike of adolescence, and he had a girl send him a picture of her and her little best friend, and they were out shopping somewhere and trying on, of all things, lingerie. Now, can you imagine?

I mean, he was, I want to say, eighth or ninth grade, and sent him, and I can't remember if it was some of his friends' pictures. And so the conversation needs to be expanded that even if you have a situation where a young lady who is made in God's image is choosing to devalue herself, that doesn't mean that you play along with it, because she still has tremendous worth and value, and the sad thing there is that she doesn't know that. And so I don't expect that any young man is really going to rise up in the middle school years and, you know, share the good news with this young lady, that she has dignity and worth and value, but at the very least, we need to make sure our boys know that all women need to be valued and respected and are made in the image of God, and it's going to get harder and harder for them, and just to be honest with them about that, because there's no shortage of opportunities for them, unfortunately. You know, at least from what I'm hearing with accessing or having, you know, girls readily sex them images if they want that to be done, and so we need to expand this conversation in regard to that, to where that's included now under the umbrella of chivalry.

Chivalry is no longer opening the door, you know, and allowing a lady to step through in front of you or helping someone at the grocery store put bags in the back of their car. You know, this goes so much further than that, because we can't compartmentalize that, right? We can't say, oh, will you show dignity and respect for these young ladies who view themselves with dignity and respect.

Yeah, here's what you're saying. You're saying that we start with a baseline of saying, son, listen, girls are God's daughters. You've got to treat them with dignity and value and respect, and then the girls come along and they say, oh, no, you don't.

Right. In fact, treat me the opposite. And so boys hear their dads or their moms saying one thing, and they hear the girls saying, no, we can do it this way. This is where I remember Dennis Rainey had written a book about dads interviewing daughters' dates, and the moms called and said, well, that's all well and good for trying to protect your daughters. But what about my 15-year-old son? I get that a lot. Who's getting these things texted to him, and he's going, what am I supposed to do with that? And so Dennis wrote the book, Aggressive Girls, Clueless Boys, and he went right to Proverbs 5, 6, and 7, where the Bible says, yes, there are going to be women who are going to present themselves to boys and say, you don't have to treat me with dignity and respect. I'm here for you. And that's where we've got to train our sons, even when the girl is saying, no, this is not what I want, you have to say, well, this is what God wants, and I'm going to do what God wants, not what seems pleasurable to me or even what you're asking me to do.

Yeah. And it seems, Vicki, you're saying you stepped in as a mom, because a lot of moms would punt that conversation to their husband, say, okay, this is sort of out of my territory, you're the man, this is my son. But yet in your book, one of your conversations is talking about sex respect with your son. So how do you do that as a mom?

I just never had any problem doing that. And I think one of the reasons is I started the conversations pretty young with my sons. It sounded something like, you know, by the time they were probably 8 to 10 years old, I was like, hey, you know, buddy, there's this word sex, and you're going to hear it.

You may have heard it already. And I just want to make sure that you know what it means, because it's something God created, and it's beautiful, and it's between a husband and a wife, but you're going to hear a lot of lies about this word sex. And so just by saying the word, you know, and being able to start that conversation with them at a young age, it reduces any level of shame associated with sex, because when we're telling them the truth about it, there should be no shame.

And what God tells us it is for, the confines of marriage. And so it makes it easier in having future conversations, because it's hard if mom's starting to have those conversations when her son's 13, 14, and hormones are raging, and, you know, and she's trying to work up her nerve just to even say the word, much less start sharing, you know, consequences fall out from sex outside of marriage. And, you know, and there's a lot really to talk about and unpack here, because the truth is our Christian kids are having sex too.

And one of the things we're discovering is that most Christian parents are not talking about it with their children. If they are, it's one time, it's not enough, it's not ongoing, and they certainly aren't talking about what happens if you do in fact have sex. So we really stink at that conversation, because we assume because we've told you the truth about sex, then you know the truth, you're not going to have sex.

You know, we've got to get better at this conversation and talking about the consequences of fallout. But one of the things I talk about in this particular conversation as well, and maybe it was because of my own story that I was sensitive to this, but I did have sex outside of marriage and it ended up producing a pregnancy. And I had an abortion at the age of 17, and it's a painful part of my past, but it's a part of my past that God has redeemed. And so I shared at various times with each of my children, depending on their level of maturity, and I prayed and asked Holy Spirit to direct me as far as, will you tell me when I'm supposed to have this conversation? And so I was able to share my own story that, you know, it comes with consequences.

It's not as easy as it looks to just, you know, oh, if somebody's willing, then, you know, everybody's doing this. I mean, there are consequences, consequences of STDs that are out there. I'm playing pregnancies like what I had, and then the heartbreak when, you know, at the time I didn't think abortion was wrong.

I wasn't a believer. And so the pain and the shame of that came later. But to also cover with my sons that I regret that, however, I need you to know that God has redeemed my past. And so, you know, I think I've heard mothers at conferences, they come in, I'm hesitant to talk to my child about that because then they think, you know, well, Mom did that, or she's giving me an excuse, or God will forgive me.

And, you know, I tell moms, that's up to you, I don't endorse moms sharing details of things. Only for the purpose of sharing regret, you know, consequences, but certainly don't be sharing details of, you know, that's just too much for any child to have to unpack. But I do think there's some power in our children hearing the regret firsthand from us. But also they need to hear the hope, right, because the reality is most of them, and I know this is hard for your listeners to hear, but most of them are going to have sex before they're married.

We hope they wouldn't. I would pray the statistics continue to go down, but at the end of the day, it's not realistic to think even 50% are going to show up on their wedding day having saved themselves. And so we have got to be able to talk openly about these things with our children, but to also make sure that they know that God can redeem anything in our past. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't come without consequences. Do you think the conversation about sex is different with a daughter than it is with a son?

I do, because a daughter is going to have to carry more responsibility if there is an unplanned pregnancy. And so I think one of the things I'd like to see happen, especially since I believe we're called to be very pro-life and protect the unborn, is that we make sure our sons realize that their potential for impregnating someone is far greater than a one-time pregnancy of a young lady. And so they have, and yet they've detached themselves from that in the sense of, that's not my problem. And so we need to be having a conversation with our sons that that is actually your problem too. And it's not just a problem, it's sin.

And that consequence is also a consequence that will follow you, whether you believe it or not. So we need to put some responsibility on their shoulders for that as well. We need to talk to them about STDs. I mean, that is huge out there. That could impact the future of their marriage and that relationship on down the road.

And so there's all sorts of issues related to it. One of the conversations I had with my boys is when I wrote the original versions of the book, I discovered in some of my background research the link in the hormone oxytocin. And I never heard about this hormone oxytocin that is actually, it is a hormone that signals in mother's labor when the baby is about to be born.

It also signals a letdown of milk. It's passed in breast milk to the baby and they call it the bonding and trust hormone. But it's also the hormone that is exchanged with sexual activity.

And so what I shared with my sons is that to me, the science backs up God's biblical standard that sex be saved for marriage because he tells us in marriage, the two shall become one. And so, you know, when there is that oxytocin is exchanged with someone who's not your spouse, a bonding occurs, especially for a lot of females. And this is where we see where it's hard in a relationship, in high school, college, whatever, all of this casual sex that's going on. Sex can't really be recreational for women without at some point it having an emotional impact. And so for our sons, the same is true.

If they are basically swapping that hormone, sharing it with any girl that comes around, I mean, it's going to create all sorts of fallout on down the road in the future. And so, again, you know, I know that it's hard to get our boys especially to think to the future. And, you know, we've talked about some on the frontal lobe that for our young men that the frontal lobes of their brains aren't fully developed until some neuroscientists say mid 20s.

Some I've heard even as late as late 20s, whereas for girls, it's in the late teen years. And so this is where they really begin to connect, you know, consequences to actions. And I know a lot of moms are listening right now or even dads saying this explains so much with my boys or some even with my husband.

But, you know, this is where it's hard to get our sons to really understand that decisions you make today can impact your future tomorrow. Yeah, I think it's really important, as you said, I think to understand, Bob, I love your opinion is like it isn't just a woman where the oxytocin and the bonding happens. It's really not much different for a man. There's a bonding. We've used the term soul tie because it's more than physical. It's more than emotional.

It's actually spiritual and even soulish in nature because it's such a beautiful, intimate act that God gave us that you're sort of giving your soul to somebody. And there's a tie there. And here's the thing I want you to talk about is that's true with porn as well. Yes. You think, oh, it's not a real person.

It's just porn. No, no, there's a tie. There's a bonding going on.

Even brain chemistry can prove that. And one of the things I found very interesting in your book was your son writes a letter at the end. And talking about that a little bit, that was such a beautiful letter and so honest. Talk about that a little bit. What happened there?

What did that mean? So in between writing the original book and then writing this updated version, and here, mind you, I'm writing a book, Five Conversations You Must Have With Your Son. I feel like, wow, I am one of few moms out here that's actually having conversations on a fairly regular basis about the dangers of pornography, sex outside of marriage, casual sex, on and on.

The list goes on. And yet my son, right after he graduated college, was newly married, shared with us that he had a porn addiction. And he and his wife had to come together in the sense of figuring out where do we go from here. Now, I will tell you, that was humbling for me because a mom's first thought is where did I go wrong?

Yeah. What part of that conversation did I leave out? Did I not talk about it enough?

And I just beat myself up. This letter that you speak of that I had his permission, and he actually asked if he could write a letter to moms, which was even more powerful to me. And I wept when I read it because he really answered that question to me, like, what could I have done differently?

And this may sound hopeless to moms, but he said nothing. You did everything you were supposed to do. You were having the conversations. This is how powerful it is, he said, but at the end of the day, let me tell you what I caught from you. I remember your story, mom, of redemption. I remember you telling me that it's never too late to begin again. I remember you telling me how God worked that out in your own life. And so I wasn't afraid to get help. And it's really one of the main reasons I wanted help at this age and I didn't continue in the sin. And so that meant the world to me because it reminded me that at the end of the day, we are called to be obedient, to teach our kids these truths as stewards. They're just on loan to us. That's why it's important that we learn to let go when we need to let go.

They belong to the Lord. And so I was able, even though I think our nature as moms, especially, is to always think I could have done more and it wasn't enough. And for the most part, I was able to say, you know, I did the best job that I could and I had these conversations, but you know what? My son has a story to tell today. My son at the age of 26 is leading men's groups at his church. He's meeting one on one with countless men who have the same addiction, both in the church and outside of the church, some that he's been able to even talk to them about the gospel and in the Lord. And so he is walking in truth today and he'll tell you too, oh, this will be a lifelong struggle. He's very honest about it.

This is a lifelong struggle. That's why he's not on social media. He's got a phone on lockdown. I mean, he knows his triggers, his limits, all of that, and he has a son now. And so that's powerful for him to be able to also tell his story someday to his own son. And I think sometimes we put pressure on ourselves that our kids can't handle this, you know. I remember a guest on Family Life Today years ago, Michael DeMarco, said most Christian parents are trying to teach their kids how to be sin avoiders and sin concealers. And we do want our kids to avoid sin, right?

That's one of the things we should teach them. But sin concealers is not what we want them to be. Remember what David said? When I concealed my sins, what happened?

My bones wasted away. So he said what we're not teaching our kids to do is how to be sin confessors and sin repenters. And the way we teach our kids how to be sin confessors and sin repenters is by demonstrating to them what that looks like, confessing our own sin, repenting of our own sins so that they see what your son saw, your story of redemption. He knew that God had worked in your life, and he saw, oh, I can be honest about my issue, and God can still work in and through that. And I think with our kids, as we raise them, as we have these conversations, here's how you treat a young woman. Here's what the boundaries should be when it comes to sex.

Here's what happens. In that's got to be, and when you fail, when you make mistakes. Because they're going to fail and we are going to fail.

Whether that's looking at pornography or whether that's lusting in their heart, which Jesus says that's committing adultery, right? Whatever it is, they've got to be able to say, here's what it looks like to confess that in a safe place, and here's what it looks like to turn from that, and here's where I can find hope, and here's where I can find freedom. They've got to learn that pattern in their lives, and that's one of the conversations that we can have with our kids as we're raising them.

And I actually did tell him in his high school years, after reading so many of the statistics, terrified about the fault. So I would say, if you ever find yourself in this situation, I would want you to know you can come to me or your father. We will get you the help that you need. There's no shame in that.

And he said that helped too, just to be able to hear that, that I wasn't endorsing sin concealing. Go ahead, and we're in this together. We can help you. One of the things that came to mind as you were sharing that, Bob, is just that I think a lot of times we're good at behavior modification strategies with our kids. You know, we like a checklist, don't we? Like, just even I think as you're in the beginning of these books, I know for a lot of moms, I would be one of them.

Just give me the formula. You know, I want to check off the boxes. Wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't it be nice if then you knew guaranteed, you know, money back return. Follow this recipe. It'll always turn out great.

Yes. And so, you know, I see where I wish my son hadn't had that struggle, but yet look who he is today. And look at the impact he's having on other men's lives and marriages that are being saved. And more importantly, his faith. He has a relationship with the Lord that is so solid that he might not have had, he would not have had because he was concealing sin.

And we all know that our relationship is fractured, you know, when we're hiding sin. But one of the things I talk about at the very end of the book is this whole idea of behavior modification. And, you know, it's like when your kids leave with car keys and you're terrified, of course. And I would always yell this ridiculous phrase like, make good choices.

Okay. So I thought a lot about this because my youngest child, the one I'm speaking of, he's my mini me. He's really the one that I made poor decisions in high school and college.

And so I could relate to a lot of what I saw in him. And I knew that the make good choices worked with my daughter because she's naturally, she was a do-gooder. And so I would say this to my son and then it hit me one day, behavior modification is not the right incentive to even be a good kid, right?

And so I talked to him one day about instead of yelling behind you, make good choices, because really at the end of the day, how many kids when they show up at the party and they discover all their friends are drinking, you know, and somebody hands them a shot glass say, oh, no thanks, I'm going to pass because right before I left, my mom told me to make good choices, so they're just not going to do it. But I would tell my son, remember the cross, remember the cross. And so this whole idea of are we going to focus more on behavior modification or heart examination. And when I sat down with my son and said, you have to come to a place, Hayden, where you care more about the condition of your heart than I do. And that has to be your decision that you truly, you must guard your heart. It is the wellspring of life, but you have to decide that you want to guard and protect your heart. It has to mean more to you. And in doing so, the best way is to remember the cross, because when we remember the cross, we can't help but go back to what he did for us personally.

And it's not going to work, like I said, every time. But if you can at least get your kids thinking along the lines of remembering the cross, rather than focusing more on this list of this is how you treat women with respect. You know, if they're doing that, examining their hearts on a daily basis as an exercise in their spiritual exercise in their lives, all of that's going to fall into place. When we survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, all the vain things that charm us most, we sacrifice them to his blood, right?

That's what the hymn writer said. Vicki, you've given a lot of moms and dads a lot of courage on these conversations we need to be having with our kids. And these books are a great tool. Thank you for being with us.

Thank you for having me. Thanks for writing the books. We've got copies of both Five Conversations You Must Have With Your Son and Five Conversations You Must Have With Your Daughter. Go to our Family Life Today Resource Center online at familylifetoday.com. You can order the book from us online, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order. Again, the website is familylifetoday.com, or call 1-800-358-6329.

That's 1-800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY. Get a copy of either or both of Vicki's books and start having these conversations with your kids. You know, our hope here at Family Life is that these kinds of conversations that you get to sit in on and be a part of are providing you with practical, biblical help and hope as you raise your kids. David Robbins, who's the president of Family Life, is here with us. And wherever you are in your parenting or grandparenting journey, we need help, don't we?

Yeah, I mean, I feel it every day, that's for sure. And, you know, I reflect back listening to this conversation on the months leading up to me becoming president of Family Life. And Dennis Rainey was introducing me to a variety of influential Christian leaders. And as I spent time with each one, I would ask them the question from their perspective, what was Family Life's greatest contribution to the body of Christ and to God's kingdom? And one leader that I really respected very candidly said, you know, Family Life, to him, was there to practically guide us in those moments and those places in life where you just stop and go, oh, boy, I've never been here before and I have no clue what to do. And, you know, at Family Life, it is part of who we are to help you engage your closest relationships, to help have conversations with your spouse, and to certainly help you have conversations with kids, those moments where you go, oh, no, what do I do? And we're here to help you. Well, and you're exactly right, this is what we're all about here at Family Life, to help you navigate these moments in a marriage and in a family when you need someone who can coach you, who can offer you practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and for your family.

That's what Family Life is all about. And we're grateful, by the way, for those of you who have partnered with us over the years so that we can reach more people more often and effectively develop godly marriages and families. If you can help with the donation today, we'd love to say thank you by sending you a copy of my new book, which is called Love Like You Mean It. It's all about understanding love at a biblical level rather than thinking about it in cultural terms.

I'm convinced that if couples can wrap their heads around a biblical view of love, they can have the kind of marriage that God has always intended for them to have, and it's a deeper level of love than most of us have ever experienced in marriage. The book is our thank you gift when you make a donation to support the ongoing work of this ministry. You can donate online at familylifetoday.com, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation and get your copy of the book Love Like You Mean It.

Thanks in advance for whatever you're able to do. We appreciate hearing from you. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow when we're going to talk about the challenge it is for a young person who's growing up in a situation where you spend a couple of weeks with mom and a couple of weeks with dad, and they live in separate locations, and maybe there are step-parents involved, and what happens when the values in the homes are different.

That's what Melody Fabian experienced, and she joins Ron Deal tomorrow to talk about how she experienced that. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today, hope for tomorrow.