Navigating Restoration

If someone has been untrustworthy, if they've betrayed us, should we ever trust them again? And if so, how do we know when it's safe to trust someone?

Here's Phil Waldrop. I think betrayers will betray again if they do not see the sinfulness of what they did, or they don't see the error of their ways, because a betrayer who is unrepentant will justify his behavior. You know, how many times have we all heard the person who has been unfaithful, and they'll say, Well, my wife just wasn't meeting my needs, or my husband wasn't meeting my needs.

And what they're trying to do is to justify their sin. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine.

You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. How can trust be rebuilt in a relationship when there's been betrayal? And how can we know if it's safe to trust someone again?

We'll explore that today with Phil Waldrop. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. We're talking this week about what's got to be one of the hardest subjects to talk about, one of the hardest pains for any person to live through, and that's the pain of betrayal. When trust has been violated, when this happens in a marriage relationship, it's devastating. When it happens between parents and kids, it's devastating.

It rocks your world. I was talking to a mom and dad recently, and one of their adult kids had been keeping stuff secret and lying about what was going on. And these parents are devastated in this relationship with this child, wondering how do we ever get to where we were and where we'd like to be again. This is the real stuff of relationships and of life. Yeah, and when you watch other people go through betrayal or hurt, it's easy to stand away and go, man, I don't know why they're so hurt.

It's not that bad. And then when it happens to you and you feel it in your soul, it's like, oh, my goodness, this is why relationships are so valuable. And when somebody you love hurts you in a deep way, it isn't just get over it. And you know what else is really hard is when someone hurts your child, because as parents, man, we love, we protect our children.

And so when someone has betrayed or hurt our child, I think there's something that rises up in us, especially as moms probably, that is hard to forgive that betrayer. Phil Waldrop is joining us this week to help us navigate the path of restoration when there's been betrayal. Welcome back to Family Life Today, Phil. Thank you, Bob.

Always great to be here. Phil is the author of a book on this subject called Beyond Betrayal. He is a speaker and a writer. He hosts conferences all over the country. Some of our listeners have been to Women of Joy conferences or to the Gridiron Men's events that he does.

That's a pretty good title, by the way. Gridiron. Gridiron. From a chaplain and a former quarterback here. This book, Beyond Betrayal, as you've already shared this week, came out of an experience with a ministry associate, a longtime friend, who betrayed the ministry, betrayed your confidence, betrayed your trust. There was a confrontation. You thought maybe he had repented. Then it turns out he hadn't. You ultimately had to ask for his resignation. Did you continue to have any interaction with or any face-to-face with this guy while you're on this journey of trying to deal with your own emotions?

Very little, and it was more his choice. We did go to the same church at the time, and that made it rather difficult because I felt there were some things that I knew that were legally confidentially I couldn't share. Secondly, I did not want to wound his family, and he didn't have children, but I didn't want to wound his wife, and I didn't want to wound his friends. And one of the painful chapters was initially, and I say initially because over time it changed, my pastor didn't believe me, which was very, very painful. Mutual friends did not believe me.

Believe you. I mean, people would come and say, so he resigned from the ministry. What happened? How would you answer that, what happened question?

I would say he resigned from the ministry. I didn't feel I had to give everyone an explanation. He felt he did, and some of the things that he shared, he really didn't attack me on a character basis. It was just more of a, we had a parting of the waves, and then as word filtered that there was more to the story than met the eye, people began to ask and people began to say. And I did finally have to come to the place with, particularly my pastor at the time, who today is a very dear friend, and who has made it real clear to me in later years, has come to me and asked for my forgiveness because he did not see what I saw. And again, I think it's very important, sometimes some betrayals are very public.

You know, everybody knows. Some betrayals are very private, and unless you choose to tell the whole story publicly, which is not wise in every case, sometimes it may be, but not wise. He was not a threat to anyone else.

He was not a threat to children. It was nothing that I would either be legally, ethically, or even spiritually bound to disclose. For me, I needed to heal, and I didn't want to have to deal with a lot of explanations. So I didn't have a church family to surround me during that time my wife and I chose to go to another church. And I have to be very quick again to say that the pastor, the people of that church, I think without a single exception, over time, came back. But if they hadn't, it would have been okay. It would have been okay.

But I think betrayers, if you give them enough time as a rule, they betray other people. You know, in fact, I had this conversation the other day. A man came to see me in our office. And, you know, I'm not a great personal counselor, I need to tell you that.

That's just not my gift. But this man came to see me. I knew him very well. And he said in my office, and he shed tears. And he said to me, he said, I just can't believe I'm sitting here telling you my wife has had an affair. She has betrayed me, and just sharing his pain.

And I need to confess to you, I didn't shed any tears. And he said, how could she do this to me? And before I thought, I said, well, you know, I think I remember that's what your first wife said when she sat in that chair and you had an affair. And he looked at me and he said, I know, but this is different.

I said, no, it's not different. And I use that illustration to illustrate. Betrayers, if they don't address their sin, will betray other people. And now he is the betrayed rather than the betrayer. Now, I was more sympathetic as the conversation went on. But as you know, when you deal with men, sometimes the best way is a head on. That had to get his attention.

Well, it did get his attention because all of a sudden he's like, oh, this is what she felt? Because he felt his, I don't think betrayers set out to hurt people, not in most cases. Most affairs are just, it's not, I want to hurt my wife. It's just that I want to do this and have my marriage and my family as well. And the devil gives you many reasons why your sin is justified. He will tell you why it's okay. And of course, and I always remind people about any sinful behavior, but particularly unfaithfulness or a betrayal. The devil will whisper in your ear, nobody will ever know. But the minute you fall into that sin, he starts broadcasting it everywhere. He makes sure everyone knows. I'm thinking about the couples I know where she's starting to come to church by herself and people are saying, so where's your husband? And she's having to explain, do I say he moved out? What do I tell? Navigating the path of healing and protection and not saying too much, not being dishonest at the same time.

At the same time, you want to hurt them because you've been betrayed. And so in the church, here's how we do it. We don't gossip. We use it as a prayer request.

Sure. You need to pray for Bob. Oh, really? Why?

Well, Bob just did this to me. You know what I mean? And we cloak it like it's okay, but it really isn't, is it?

No. To go broadcast around. And you have to remember when people ask in church life, and I think it's important to be reminded, as those of us who are in the body of Christ and we're in church, when there is that single mom comes, you just may want to say, you're doing okay. You give them an opportunity, but you don't have to, you know, suddenly try to get into all the gory details. And for sure, you don't go share it. You know, one of the things that I don't know how I would respond now if social media had been present at the time I went through it, because people can, you know, it's given everyone the ability to share information and to put I heard in the rumors. And one thing in the body of Christ, I think it's important for us to know we truly pray for people, but we don't have to go and destroy people.

And we don't have to go and share all the gossip. I want to go back to something you said. You said betrayers will betray again, unless they're repentant. And so I'm thinking of people listening and I'm thinking, oh, their husband or their spouse came back and said, this has happened, I know I got caught, but this isn't going to happen again, but it doesn't seem like there's been any real spiritual repentance. Should they be worried?

Well, I think we all should probably be concerned, but let me clarify. I think betrayers will betray again if they do not see the sinfulness of what they did, or they don't see the error of their ways, because a betrayer who is unrepentant will justify his behavior. He will, you know, how many times have we all heard the person who has been unfaithful and they'll say, well, my wife just wasn't meeting my needs, or my husband wasn't meeting my needs. And what they're trying to do is to justify their sin.

So a warning light should be going off if that's happening. Exactly. So if someone is truly broken and repentant, you know, Jesus said we forgive one time, right?

No, Jesus said seven times 70. I think we always are willing to forgive, but again, trust has to be earned. And for healthy relationships sometimes, we have to set those boundaries. You know, I have, again, friends who recently have gone through this, and it just happened to be the lady where the man had had an affair works with him. And I had to turn to the man and I said, you need to quit your job. And he's like, well, I can't quit my job.

I'm making good money. I said, no, if you want your marriage to restore, be restored, you cannot work in that environment with her. And it was a test for him because he thought he was going to be strong enough to, you know, restore the marriage and stay in. And I said, no, because as long as she's there, there will always be a temptation. And he chose to leave his job.

That did so much for their marriage because his wife saw at that point he was really going to try. So first step in trust. But you're right, I think you have to be aware, but a betrayer who does not see what he did as sin and wrong and deal with it is going to turn around and be betrayed again. Go back to the story of Judas. We forget that when Judas went back to the leaders, they basically said, we don't want nothing to do with you. You know, Judas who betrayed Jesus turns around and he gets betrayed himself at a lesser level, but he gets betrayed himself because they don't want the money back. He's going to try to undo what I've done.

I've made a mistake here. I want to give you the money back. They're like, no, we don't want anything to do with you.

We've got everything we want from you. So he in turn is betrayed as well. And that's the reason why I say that people who betray sometimes betray again.

Sometimes they get betrayed themselves. And it really never ends until the betrayer has to repent. That's when it ends. Until then, anything could happen.

It could keep spinning away and then you're left with the debris, right? Exactly. And they deal with the core that's causing them to betray people. People who have been betrayed or people who have an all things at all cost mentality sometimes feel the end justified the means. It was okay to betray the person I work for as long as that ultimately helped me launch my own business. I've heard that excuse. No, it does not justify it. At the core of what we're talking about is character.

And if the character is flawed, it's going to continue to be flawed. You mentioned a 20-year journey. Again, it seems like a long time.

Some people say, I'm not going to sign up for that. It's too much work. And yet you got to a place where you were healed. I mean, we're always continuing to heal. But how did you know? How did you know you were there? I found hope. You know, the day I found, I remember it as though it was yesterday.

It was probably one of the top five days of my life. Because when I was betrayed, one of the things that really hurt deep was I felt the vision and the calling and the ministry that God had given us had been greatly impacted. And it had.

It set us back financially in practical ways and the things that he was doing in the ministry in a positive way. And I felt like there's no hope for me. And so I was in town one day and I was speaking at this church.

And it was one of those days that I was going to drive back that night. So I checked out of the hotel early. And I've got like three or four hours that I really don't have anything to do. And normally I go hang out at a bookstore. But the other thing I like to do, and I don't really collect antiques, but I like to roam antique stores. And so I went over and I saw this little neat antique store. And I said, well, I go in there and walk around.

Because a lot of times you have privacy because there's not a lot of people in there that come talk to you. And so I'm in there just walking around and for various reasons, I guess. I've always been fascinated with old pottery. And so I saw they had some pottery and I walked over and to those who are serious pottery collectors, you know what Roseville and Hull pottery and those kind of things are. And they had some unique pieces of Roseville pottery.

So I walked over there and I was just fascinated with that. And I began to look and they had a lot of pottery that was foreign pottery. Now pottery has to be perfect to have value.

If it has one chip, one flaw, the price drops dramatically, almost to the point of no value. So if you have a piece of Roseville pottery and it's got a chip in it, it's going to be worth a tenth of what perfect pottery is. And that's important to remember because as I'm standing there, they have all this wonderful Japanese pottery. And boy, the prices, I'm like, oh wow, you know. And then they had this one piece of pottery that was obviously broken, obviously repaired, and the price was twice the price of the other pottery. And I was like, well, I don't know why that is. So I called the lady over and I said, why is this piece of pottery that obviously is broken and repaired?

I mean, did this belong to like some famous person? And she said, oh no, sir, you don't understand. In every culture in the 17th and the 1800s, American culture or wherever, when a piece of pottery was broken, they would pick up the pieces and they threw it out. But not the Japanese. The Japanese would pick up the pieces of that pottery and they would put it back together. But they discovered the only way they could get it to hold was to make an epoxy with gold in it. And so what you are seeing, sir, is a repaired, broken piece of pottery that has been interlaid with gold. And the piece that has been put back together with the gold epoxy is worth far more than the piece that was never broken.

And she walked away. And you know as Christians what I mean. Me and the Lord had a good time because the Lord spoke to me and said, you thought it was shattered. You thought it was broken.

You thought it was worthless. You saw no hope. You picked up the pieces and you've tried to put it back together. But if you'll try to put it back together the way I want you to, that's when I realized I really do have to forgive. I do have to trust again. I do have to take down the walls that were keeping people out emotionally and spiritually in every other way. And let those people back into you. If you'll trust me and do it my way, there will always be the cracks.

They'll always be visible. But I want you to know you will see a worth and a value even before you walk through the betrayal. And the hope for me that day was understanding that when you have been betrayed, when your marriage is shattered, when your business is shattered, when a relationship is shattered, and you feel like you're just standing there holding pieces and there's no value at all, the good news is it takes time. You don't put a piece of pottery back together in a day. It takes time, but if you will do it God's way and allow the precious purity of his love and his wisdom to piece by piece put it back in your life, you will be absolutely amazed how in the end God can create something more beautiful, more valuable, more worthwhile, more whatever you want than even before the brokenness occurred. Do you have today a relationship with the one who was your betrayer?

I do not. I have reached out on occasion, but he has made the choice not just with me, but with everyone in that stage of his life. If he texted you today and said, can we get together? I would talk to him.

In fairness, I would probably have a third party there. I think that would be healthy for several reasons, but sure, I would sit down and talk to him. You would like to think there could be a day when the wounds are healed and you could be restored to some level of a relationship. Of friendship, yes.

And I think you've already said this. It's not the idea that it could be restored to the place where it was. Sometimes there's enough damage done that you can't restore to the place where it once was, but we should always be pursuing. I'm thinking of 2 Corinthians 5 where it says we've been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation. Reconciled relationships, that's the story of the Bible, isn't it? And so we ought to be pursuers of reconciled relationships, doing that wisely, prudently, appropriately, but that ought to be our heart motivation. In some ways, you could say every Christ follower is a minister of reconciliation.

In that same passage, Paul says we are called to that ministry. And, you know, Phil, even as you're telling that beautiful story, I sit there thinking, man, I'd love to be laying in bed at night and hear that story said almost every night as you're putting your kids to bed. It's so beautiful to see the picture of forgiveness and restoration. But here's what hit me, is when I forgave my dad, and even when I say that, it's like when God enabled me, because I couldn't, I just, it was too deep. And when I went through that journey, years-long journey, and forgave him, I didn't even understand at that moment how my freedom and my relationship with my dad, and again, it didn't become this perfect relationship with my dad in his final years of life, but it was much better.

But I didn't understand this. When I allowed God to set me free, I was setting my sons free. I had no idea this was now going to be part of my legacy. If I didn't go on that journey, I'm going to have a totally different legacy, because I'm going to bring that into my family, and that sort of stain of bitterness is going to be passed down. And yet, because their dad was free, and I'm not saying they're perfect, but it was like they didn't even experience it. I don't even think they even knew it.

You know, they never felt the venom from their dad toward their grandpa. That was a large part of my life. It was a legacy changer. So, I'm guessing your forgiveness, your freedom, not only affected you, it's affected your wife and your legacy, right? Well, so inspiring.

I think of Romans 8, 28, that God uses all things together for good. But I look at your book, I think you probably wouldn't have written this book had you not gone through this experience. And that Japanese pottery, we actually did a women's retreat, because that was like the theme of it, because it's such a beautiful picture. I think it's called kintsugi. That's the way I would say it. I was going to say it a moment ago, but I don't always say it at the same time.

The kintsugi pottery, and I think that's true of all of us. We're all broken, and yet God can take those pieces and put them back together, and it's more beautiful after he's restored us. One of the things I discovered about forgiveness, I always thought forgiveness was like a point in time where I say, I forgive. And for me, I discovered forgiveness for a long time was a daily choice. Forgiveness is not a feeling. It is an action.

It is a choice. And for me, I had to get up every morning and say, Lord, today I choose to forgive my betrayer. I didn't try to worry about next week.

I didn't worry about next month. Today, I choose to forgive. And what I discovered, in light of what you said, was I did not realize, my oldest daughter at the time was old enough to be aware of what was going on. My youngest daughter was not. She was very young at the time. But I didn't realize, and now my daughter, who has two children of her own and is in her late 20s, to hear her perspective of what her daddy went through. Because, you know, for her, I think it was trying to decide, is what my daddy preaches true, or is it just something he said because it's his job? And I think she realizes now, and she's verbalized, that, Dad, when I saw you really were sincere in what you went through.

Because she knew a lot more, and she knows a lot more now, of the depth of it. And in many ways, I've never even, there's a whole chapter of that, that I haven't even told, that I never want to tell. It's not about trying to get even, or it's just about being transparent, and your kids see your heart. And they also see your honesty. Because if you go home, I think so many of us, in ministry in particular, we try to be super spiritual with our kids all the time. Sometimes you just need to tell your kids, I didn't like that, I'm upset about that.

This is not about performing, this is about a relationship, and relationships have to be very honest. But, you know, to come out on the other side, the story of the pottery, that there's hope, and there's value, and there's joy. Because, you know, as you said, Romans 8, 28, God uses everything that happens to us. It doesn't mean everything's great, some things are painful.

You know from football, it's not fun when you're out there lifting weights, and you're exercising to get ready. But it is a necessary part of the process. Or, as I like to often, when I use kids, I remember going to this center for butterflies one time, and they had the cocoons, you know, where the larva had been. And one of the butterflies was breaking out, and this little girl wanted to help, and said, no, you can't help do that.

Because if you do, they will not have strength in their wings to fly. So what you think is helping is really hurting. And I think sometimes when we look at our lives, we need to be reminded. Things we think God is doing that's hurting us is really helping us to be strong.

And you know in ministry, when you've been through something that is painful, you're able to help and speak to the hearts of others. Because for me, you know, the person who really spoke to me in Scripture was Joseph. Because if you think about it, here is a guy in the Old Testament who has been betrayed and betrayed. I mean, his brothers betrayed him, you know, and then he's betrayed by, you know, Potiphar's wife, who's accused him of something he didn't do. She betrayed him, then he gets in prison, and a guy promises, boy, as soon as I get out of here, you're going to be remembered. And the first thing the guy did was forget.

And he's betrayed, and he's betrayed and betrayed. But you know, he's one of the few people in the Old Testament, you never read anything negative about him. And yet, God took all of those experiences and put him in a position of authority to where he could bless other people.

All of his betrayals and his forgiveness, because we know he forgave because of the way he reacted with his brothers when they came during the famine. And that spoke to me, that all of these things that are happening, God has a greater purpose and a greater mission. And how did I know then that God would give our ministry opportunity through Women of Joy and Great Iron Men and our Celebrators, which is for senior adults?

I had no idea that God was going to take that pain and use it to bless them and encourage them and to give them hope. And our hope is that people who are in the midst of the pain can find the freedom that God promises if you'll walk this path faithfully, if you'll press into these issues and get to forgiveness. There's freedom on the other side of that. If you hang on to, you hold on to resentment and bitterness, there's no freedom there.

You're going to be in bondage. And our hope is that our listeners can follow the path that you've outlined for us here. Phil, thank you for writing the book. Thank you for coming and sharing the story and for helping all of us on this. Well, thank you for having me. It's always my joy whenever I can just maybe help someone who's in the midst of their pain to realize it may be hurting now, they may be hurting tomorrow, but with time there's hope and the sun will shine again.

Well, and we want to help make that happen. In fact, we're making your book available this week to any of our listeners who'd like to get a copy. If you can help with a donation to support the Ministry of Family Life today, we'll send you a copy of Phil's book, Beyond Betrayal, Overcome Past Hurts and Begin to Trust.

Maybe you're not in this place yourself, but you know somebody who has been through betrayal. Get a copy of Phil's book and use it to help them know how to respond. Again, the book is our thank you gift when you support the ongoing work of family life today. This ministry exists because listeners like you make it possible. We're on this station, or if you're listening as a podcast on the internet through your Alexa device, the production and syndication of this program is made possible because listeners like you believe in what we're doing and donate to make it happen. So again, if you can help with the donation, we'd love to send you Phil Waldrop's book, Beyond Betrayal, as our way of saying thank you for partnering with us.

Go to familylifetoday.com to donate online or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. We look forward to hearing from you and thanks in advance for whatever you're able to do in support of this ministry. Now tomorrow we want to talk about the importance of cultivating transparency and authenticity in a marriage, being open and honest with one another so that betrayal doesn't happen. Ryan and Selena Frederick are going to join us tomorrow to talk about that. We hope you can be with us. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.