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September 17, 2020 2:00 am
Dave and Ann Wilson talk with Ryan and Selena Frederick about the freedom in a marriage where both spouses are fully known and fully loved. Shame makes us want to hide, but transparency leads to a greater purpose than just intimacy in marriage-more glory for God. What's the right heart posture to build a love that "rejoices in the truth?" What should we do if we think our spouse is hiding something? And what's the difference between "keeping" peace and "making" peace?
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The Bible says when we get married. The two are to become one for honest there are parts of who we are, things about our past store things we may be thinking that we just don't share with each other.
Ryan Frederick says when we open up wisely and carefully. God can draw us closer together as a couple, out of the blue.
I mean, out of the blue and in my mid-30s something from Mike when I was 10, 11, 12 years old that it happened pop into my memory that I never told Celine about what it was very shameful for me to finally we were doing communion at church one morning and I dispel the Holy Spirit is elected is that you have to just like bring her into this was the result from that.
I felt so loved as she looked at me and she said thank you for sharing.
I still love you. This is family life to our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine can find us email@example.com are you and your spouse transparent with one another.
Do you really know each other at the deepest level. How can you move closer in that direction will explore that today stay with us and welcome to family life to. Thanks for joining us. One of the things listeners recognize about you guys. If they listen for any length of time is that cowboy who where we going you what you are remarkably transparent, don't you think I mean when you compare yourself to the average people who are little more guarded. Your kind like what you see is what you get.
Then we don't hide behind much to little scary at times, especially when were on stage and I don't know what my wife is going to bring up or say and she has brought it all up.
I don't think it's even thinning team shall necessarily it's just who we are kind of messy and messed up and I feel like I probably bring that a little bit more than Dave and now Dave is just you have gone there to hold a lot. Yeah I was going to add this this program and about us, but it is intentional.
You one of the values our church and and I is a leader teaching team. It's always like I always say every sermon should always have at least two things. One, our brokenness, how we failed the fact that even said if there's not a story of weakness go back and rewrite that sermon now. Not adamant about that, but there should be. I want the audience to go while they they struggle like I do, but at the same time, there should be victory in Christ. So they go yeah but they know Jesus in a way, I'm not sure if ever experience at so they feel both transparent and they get a real view and your struggle in your marriage or wherever, but they also see the power of God at work in their both true simultaneously. Were talking about transparency today because we got some guests were joining us who believe that transparency and vulnerability are an essential part of a healthy marriage. Yeah, you love the title of the book see through marriage by Ryan is Selena Frederick and it's interesting to think see-through marriage at me when you see the tiny like exactly what does that mean that it could be a little scary within read the subtitle experiencing the freedom and joy of being fully known and fully loved and I think that describes what every human soul longs for.
We do want to be fully loved and fully known. And yet in a marriage.
It's hard to do so. It's excited think of their there.
The authors of fierce marriage and a website with a few people and hundreds of thousands of people that they impact and so this book is just another of series that you guys are in its you are a couple that is see-through, but that is what the see-through marriage me but first up the title you mentioned it.
It's kind of given us some creative marketing because if you go to Amazon and type in see-through you don't get a book title first. But I think the people who are unintentionally aware of the blackmail.
Because of that compilation there yeah for Russ, transparency's, been a way of living at that say we been in Firstmerit for about seven years now eight years and one of things really drove us into that was realizing that while there is kind of another level of intimacy that we've experienced because we a pastor that was had taught us what it meant to be transparent and so that's comes blood into how we've communicated through marriage and really it's it's revolutionized our own marriage. We value and it's it's a big part of how we communicate and so this book was just a response to all the response that we give more readers and listeners thing. It wasn't mean, how we do it and how can we know start that journey.
So here we go.
We definitely did not arrive there. It took a long time I think to cultivate interest.
What is that mean what is that look like day-to-day. Not even big picture year-to-year when examined by Catalina.
It's more than just seeking out and checking in accountability right there so much more to transparency today so you guys would be different than coming and described Dave and and her as being kind of naturally just out there people would you say that you had to cultivate transparency. It did not come as naturally to you, I think.
I mean, I think for every sinner right you have to cultivate it to an extent. You have to realize that this walking in the light.
So we talk a lot in the book about first John chapter 1 and it says that verse that will come to know if you walk in the light as he is in the light, we will have fellowship with one another. We will be cleansed from unrighteousness. So I think that walking in the light becomes more intuitive right as we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit.
I think in general we live transparent is personality wise right, terrible actor like I was in a play once as a kid I could not pretend to be somebody I was and it was horrible and anytime of been able to speak in front of a it's always got to be no out of her hearts.
I think that's kind of natural not regard, but in terms of been known in our sin.
Like being vulnerable and and taking our shame to one another, did take some very conscious like cultivating trust, cultivating our understanding of what it means to be loved.
In light of the gospel. What you guys are saying they just talking about being fully known and still fully love. That's the beauty of the gospel right we want that so badly in life and in marriage, and I think marriage is designed with that end in mind, but we just it takes a kind of a leap of faith to get there to realize that while you actually do still love me even though it brought this to you. I think we can even tend to think that we are being transparent and I think really a tendency for oncogenesis, the tendency is to hydrate our tendency is to get really good at hiding to get really good at putting up these posturing enough sharing. Maybe just enough because I think there's this middle part of like just in math and then to match right.
How do we know when to share what and how do we know that is being productive and not more distracted and so I think that's something when you get married you are. Hopefully this book will lead you to want to explore those areas more and not just think that you know you got it figured out. Because no wheat we felt like we had step figured out. We felt like we were honest but as you guys know is your master longer and longer. You realize you just getting better you not hiding things. Maybe he had not been set up front because you know they may not care.
You cannot even rationalize my know you go back to that you mentioned Adam and Eve to go back to the first marriage Adam and Eve before Genesis 3. Like Genesis wanted to. There's this phrase in there and I wonder if this is what see-through marriages us. They were naked and unashamed. Bob may say neck and an understanding that I've heard the voice of what what's really adjusting. I will other forget this is classic a guy who mentored me in college, I came to Christ my junior year, so I'm a brand-new Christian.
I go over to his house and he and his wife there married as the first Christian marriage I've ever seen.
I'd never experienced Christian marriage and again a lot of great lessons from Bill but well thinks. He told me he was somebody taught them before they got married that naked and unashamed met you don't hide anything. You're completely open about everything in your life, including physically, so they encouraged he and his wife on your honeymoon you should be naked at all times, and I'm like what he said so yeah so we thought at least the first 48 hours were never click close out of my what you think the setting is a not make this up.
He said the second night on our honeymoon.
We are sitting in this hotel room playing monopoly naked and he said he looked over his wife he goes. This is read to close that story here said right here said he is there is a real question here. What would what would your understanding of what it doesn't mean to be naked and unashamed in your marriage obviously is not physically only it's beyond that.
But what does that mean you mention love that you brought up the garden pre-fall because that was that was the ideal that was how creation was designed to function and then here. Sin enters the picture and breaks everything and we are living in light of that brokenness, my God, we have Jesus that he has shown us the better tree just like I don't used to run the room would run their hide in the trees right in God's is walking through the garden same. You know, where are you what you done so I got forgot where they were confined in right he was calling them into a reflective state of how the relationship and broken but in a similar way we want African hide in the trees in the garden. We have a new tree not to hide behind.
And that is the person work of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice that he gave us and gave himself for us, and so to be naked unashamed, I think, and the true sense. Okay, so it's really easy as marriage writers just to say hey just be honest you know can build trust in you losing but like okay what's in the fuel that is that's if it doesn't come from somewhere deeper and my identity doesn't go deeper than just what I've done and even who I am.
Identity has to be including Christ. So when in first John when he writes walk in the light as an active walking in the light, not just so I can be naked in front of you is not this like on prideful naked, unashamed, here I am, take it or leave it right is not that it's on being transparent so that so that we can go somewhere together so that we can be made cleansed from righteousness, so that we can have fellowship.
So I think true. Having biblical transparency isn't just transparency for its own sake is transparency with an end in mind and that is righteousness that is fellowship that is experiencing greater depth of relationship so that we can get a glimpse of what it's like to be known and loved by God in marriage so in terms of practicality. What should we be transparent about the question you say anything right. We could say no addiction sexual you know pornography account of the buzzwords finances that I think all applies, but are personal sort of test is whatever that thing is that you you want to hide whatever that thing is that incites shame in you, whatever that thing is that the insights fear instead of faith in you. That's the thing that's the thing you need to figure out a way forward. I mean all this is a really quick personal example.
I've been watching sermons online got it working on my heart over couple weeks and out of the blue.
I mean, out of the blue am in my mid-30s something from Mike when I was 10, 11, 12 years old that it happened popped into my memory that I never told Celine about but it was very shameful for me and so maybe had repressed it either psychological reasons for why can remember that thing but it was two instances where this popped a memory. Not all man I just hope you go back to the dark hole from which they came. I don't deal with this. I don't want to tell her but I'm ashamed of this and God would not let it happen.
I kept remembering and so about two weeks went by, my heart was being softened but I kept on wanting it to harden into this. So finally we were doing communion at church one morning and I just felt the Holy Spirit selected is that you have to just like bring her into this and during communion. I decide when we were praying. I said we need to talk today and it's some really ashamed and I'm smart on you to bring you in any way.
We have a conversation God was so graciously and ended up opening up on some things that she had been kind of like unknowingly not transparent with what was the result from that that we felt. I felt so loved because she looked at me and she just said thank you for sharing. I still love you just as much as I did 10 seconds ago.
30 seconds ago and that this brought us even closer in and that since I got to really experience God's grace and answer questions.
Not that there is this like checklist of things to be transparent about.
I think it really is anything that you are hiding from your spouse I think is a good candidate for for being exposed. Celine isn't there in all husbands and wives. Just this voice that says if your spouse knows this thing about you or these things about you they won't be able to get past that hurdle, you will be throwing into your marriage. An obstacle that's gonna be hard for anybody to overcome and still love you and and think well of you if they know that this is true about you yeah yeah I would say anybody kind of 1099s probably enough. Not really in their him, praying that. Yeah, that's the biggest hurdle of trying to to figure out how do I tell them this part of me had I show them Canada again that bad and ugly greatly. We share a lot of the gadget that heartily how I navigate this because I think we can think were exposing things right and then still kind of pushed himself on a cart that does take a certain what we mentioned earlier, a leap of faith to trust that God is big enough to help you find a way forward you think it will shatter your trust will shatter your marriage he will recover from it. Your protecting them from this truth. That's an act of faith and so that I think is understanding the process and when you bring big things to your marriage right. It's not just a campaigning mistake saying rent talk about it.
Will began. Usually there's kind of a big mushroom cloud right of blowing up like there's probably gonna be some follow Saul out some frustrations. There's going to need to be some time to cut a deal and let the dust settle. I guess and I think when we can expect that were not so surprised by that which allows us to kind of persevere, think through that, because I think sometimes we can just drop bombs and then in a worker or I don't want to drop that bomb into afraid and the Lord might be leading you into doing that because he has and even PC is a you know deeper. You need to treat ice experiencing cell. I'm think about two different categories because there are some things that we would be hesitant to be transparent about because I want Marion to admire me and if I revealed this about me that's going to make me less admirable.
So that's one thing it's character flaws and me deficiencies like what you describe Brian if if she knew this is a part of my background. She's going to think less of me than the other things are ways in which we sin against one another.
Things that we've done where we may keep it hidden I'm imagining husband who's involved in pornography.
He even won't be transparent about that with his wife because he's sinning against her and if she learns that, then he's busted. That's with the mushroom clouds really going go off in their marriage. So let's talk first about those situations where were were thinking if you really knew the things I think about from time to time. If you really knew things about my past that are shameful. If you really knew what I said to a coworker today. Things that would make me look bad to you. I'm just afraid you would think.
Why did I marry you or I wish I had married you or I don't want to still be married to you if that's the kind of person you really are. We feel like because we feel such shame in ourselves being that way we will want to tell somebody else the shameful parts of who we are mean there's a posture right in marriage that I think is really truly unique. That's an opportunity to talk about enough. I don't think in the Western church in this idea of contrition right. True repentance to one another and basely bringing something not just with that heart of again first on one walking in the light so that there's a reason for this on the share this thing with you that I don't want to share with you but here's why. Because I know I need to be cleansed from it. I know that any I won't have fellowship with you and so that it's that deep underlying purpose for doing it.
I think that this gives all the power because it is rooted in the gospel, not just in alleviating shame a lot of times will share something because it's I feel guilty I just want to get off my conscience. How often is that really led to heart change. But when you doing something with the sole aim of being made more righteous and to have fellowship with another. That's powerful snow sweetheart.
So it really doesn't matter what, what your heart, posture is headed into it forces all kinds like way so that could look but I think by far the most important is the underlying identity, heart, posture, and then being smart about how you present it still being honest in the I think this can be really difficult, and yet when we first got married.
I told Dave I want to note everything about you. I want to know what makes you tick. I want to know everything will then his were married a while he starts telling me everything and honestly as I equate this part came. He stared at me to start with pornography like I thought to myself.
Do I want to know, because it's really hard and I'm offended and I'm hurt and I feel incredible scene myself, it brings up all my own junk think that's a really good question because we think this can be. So I'm getting out everything can be really difficult to go there and it took us probably years to kind of not only getting to tomography but going into deeper issues of growing and Shane in abuse and alcohol. We didn't know how much it was affecting us until we talk to one another about it and as a result, it almost became like we were each other's counselors, but there is something about when the other person sees all of you, and you can still be loved in the Nixon that there is a oneness and intimacy that really can't be described. It's beautiful. It is the gospel is, we just said that it can be really messy down in one of the markers of that level of transparency is again the gospel focus, but without that we run the risk of being enablers and we go to the direction of codependence right because if there's not a desire that is birthed in us, to the power of the Holy Spirit to be made more righteous becomes about behavior modification right and so loosing some wives, particularly means goes both sides but wives arrived in Mesilla. I know my husband is dealing with this thing.
I don't want to bring it up because Mr. and maintain level of peace that we have in our household and so there's like a codependence that develops their very unhealthy except in that case. Transparency is not actually moving you forward. All you're doing is just learning how to coexist with the sin and that is were called out of that as believers were called to address it lovingly and persistently fight the fight.
Run the race like these are arduous words word pictures given to us in God's word is Wheeler's contrast peacemaking versus peacekeeping right Jesus and in Matthew chapter 5 sermon on the Mount is blessed of the peace makers right at it as a peacekeepers peacemakers is actually the Jewish word is shalom under their right that all-encompassing peace that comes from God and that is circumspect peace. It's not just quiet, it's not just stillness.
It is peace that goes down the route for you were not called me peacekeepers peacemakers so that means sometimes crating unrest so that we can have a greater, deeper peace and that that is the hard work of making peace that God is calling us into.
Can you kinda run us through the three lies that you talk about that keep us from pursuing transparency yeah yeah I love this one because Selena brought the lie language into this, which I think is really good because one of the best ways to work through truth in our lives is to understand the lies that tend to keep us from those truths in the first one is large can talk about as we can be transparent from trying to keep what little peace I have so I won't rehash it but just like we said this, the tendency is it really just make him exhausted. I can't gear up for another fight on this. I've tried.
We've already been there.
But I'm saying I think God is calling us into a place of endurance here: been resting in him and fighting the good fight to create and make peace that we were called the second one is I need the time alone so I can work on myself writing this one was a little too personal and goes down because I think that my tendency is to just let me just to figure this out. Let me just enough that God made us work it out and then I'll come back to you. You know hall and ready to go already be married again. You now and I think we then rob our spouse of so much and we rob our marriage in our relationship that so much growth and potential fairly unity and again like he said exchanging intimacy and then the third one is my marriage and that bad it's definitely nice that there is a set of comparison game is strong and managed. It's not. It's it just crashes every land-grant involved an email. Second Corinthians 1012 Paul. He states that those who compare are without understanding Ray and sell. We are kind of boasting in our own knowledge. Our own abilities rather than boasting in the work of the Lord which typically comes about brokenness and comes about their weaknesses. We call it auto polishing on merit and that will likely exchanging one. The one night a friend and I like mom and I feel so bad about our life, because whatever that if that thing is right we were life, not us together is theirs or Instagram feed isn't nearly as interesting or exotic.
We don't always places in the oil company shall be like well listen they're terrible in these ways is always like Paulus are idols, and they fight all the time so were better really felt like once a customer's that were not called a Marine fool not protected were we need to boast in the Lord and what he is on our lives. That is the only spot for us to actually accompany and we don't actually get to boast negative us about our weakness and meet. I really boasting that I got you now as I look those three lies.
I'm sure there's more but I'm guessing a lot of couples of experience all three I know is I read them in the book as like whoa I did number one only did number two I did. Number two I did all three.
It was like I don't want to tell her what I'm struggling with. And again we've been married 40 years so this is in year five. So were earlier marriage.
I'm struggling with porn this before digital porn, but still I've got this private little struggle and I'm hiding like Adam and Eve in the garden in our marriage is good, that I could tell something was going on he would say her marriage is good, I would say marriage is weird right now. Something to happen on so yeah you see Joe and Sally's marriage is a lot better now as I have and then number two is I need time alone. That's what I was playing in my head as all get a handle on this and if I get a handle on it which I will course, then it will be a problem. So I finally need to bring it up because it will be under control and light hurt me yeah and I and I was not expecting what you guys shared earlier is when you know you shared something fully known. You were fully loved. I'm thinking if I am fully known really fully known, fully transparent, I will not be fully loved when I wasn't very good at letting it beginning now, and in that sense, it didn't go well. I'm bringing this up because I know there couples that have experience anything. Maybe you did as well as like okay I had the courage I finally let the light in is when you're in a dark and dark is going to suffocate you to lose and so finally I'm like okay I got a teller and I did so I'm I'm now living see-through marriage and she blew up. It felt like at that time, like I should've never said it. This is hurting our marriage she does. I don't know she really loves me.
She's like she did know this now, she knows, but here's where, and again this is a process for us.
It didn't get handled in a month or even six months, but now as I look back and yeah she blew up for a while, and there is anger and then there were tears and there was hurt. Now I look back and think it was worth the pain to be fully known. Because I feel more love now than I because if I continue to hide that I'm not really loved is a false superficial love but she sees it all and I'm love and that's the gospel you know I will get to experience it in our marriage. What we experience in our vertical relationship with Christ. That's the beauty of it, so I would just say to the husband or wife listening have the courage. It's scary is really scary.
It's a great book title. It's a scary thing to do. But when you do it that book title becomes a great marriage, see-through marriage is beautiful because you experience the literally the gospel in the horizontal.
It isn't just vertical now, and even to ask, I got is there anything that I'm hiding my spouse, and if you did you try it and you. So, be transparent and vulnerable and it doesn't go well because it may not. Your spouse may be hurt. Just know that you can keep pressing him and persevering and be humble and be gentle and be loving and where you will get on the other side you will have to go through Valley through some pain to get there but where you get will be richer and deeper and a more authentic kind of love than what you're experiencing as long as you keep the veneer up and it's just a superficial relationship. Ryan and Selena dive deep into this in their books. See-through marriage, which is a book we got in our family life today resource Center. You can go firstname.lastname@example.org to get a copy or you can call one 800 FL today. Again, the title of the book is see-through marriage experiencing the freedom and joy of being fully known and fully loved by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Order your copy email@example.com or call one 803 586-329-1800 F as in family L as in life, and then the word today. One of the things that can interfere with intimacy and with transparency in a marriages if we've ever experienced betrayal in a relationship. We talked about this earlier this week when Phil Walter joined us on family life to day, in his book beyond betrayal is a book that were making available to family like to listeners who can help support the ministry with a donation. I think most of you realize that the reason we were able to have this conversation today and you were able to join in is because a lister like you cared enough about this kind of ministry happening that they made a donation to support the ongoing work of family life to the if you'd like to see this continue pay it forward. Invest in the lives of other couples. You can do that by donating today go to family like to.com make an online donation or call one 800 FL today to donate when you do again ask for your copy of the Waldrup's book beyond betrayal were happy to send it to you as a way to say thank you for investing in the lives of so many people and supporting the work of family life. To date, and we hope you can join us again tomorrow when working to talk about the fear that is they are in a relationship that keeps us from being transparent with one another we do about Ryan and Selena Frederick join us tomorrow. Hope you can join us as well. Think our engineer today.
Keith Lynch along with our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our hosts Dave and Ann Wilson on Bob Lapine will see you back next time for another edition of family life today family like to use the production of family life of Little Rock, Arkansas. Accrue ministry help for today hope for tomorrow