Fully Known and Fully Loved

The Bible says when we get married, the two are to become one. But if we're honest, there are parts of who we are, things about our past or things we may be thinking that we just don't share with each other.

Ryan Frederick says when we open up wisely and carefully, God can draw us closer together as a couple. When I was twelve years old, that had happened, it popped into my memory that I had never told Selena about, but it was very shameful for me. So finally, we were doing communion at church one morning and I just felt the Holy Spirit say, like, today's the day. You have to just like, bring her into this.

And what was the result from that? I felt so loved because she looked at me and she just said, thank you for sharing. I still love you. This is Family Life Today. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. I'm Bob Lapine.

You can find us online at familylifetoday.com. Are you and your spouse transparent with one another? Do you really know each other at the deepest level?

How can you move closer in that direction? We're going to explore that today. Stay with us. And welcome to Family Life Today.

Thanks for joining us. One of the things listeners recognize about you guys, if they've listened for any length of time, is that... Oh boy, where are we going? You are remarkably transparent, don't you think? I mean, when you compare yourself to the average people who are a little more guarded, you're kind of like, what you see is what you get and we don't hide behind much. It's a little scary at times, especially when we're on stage and I don't know what my wife is going to bring up or say, and she has brought it all up. I don't think it's even been intentional necessarily. It's just who we are, kind of messy and messed up. And I feel like I probably bring that a little bit more than Dave.

And now Dave is just, you have gone there totally. I was going to add, this program isn't about us, but it is intentional. One of the values at our church as I lead our teaching team, it's always like, I always say every sermon should always have at least two things.

One, our brokenness, how we've failed. In fact, I've even said, if there's not a story of weakness, go back and rewrite that sermon. Now I'm not adamant about that, but there should be, I want the audience to go, wow, they struggle like I do. But at the same time, there should be victory in Christ. So they go, yeah, but they know Jesus in a way I'm not sure I've ever experienced that. So they feel both transparent and they get a real view into your struggle and your marriage or wherever, but they also see the power of God at work and they're both true simultaneously. We're talking about transparency today because we've got some guests who are joining us who believe that transparency and vulnerability are an essential part of a healthy marriage. Yeah, you've got to love the title of the book, See Through Marriage by Ryan and Selena Frederick. And it's interesting to think, see through marriage, I mean, when you see the title, you're like, exactly what does that mean? It could be a little scary, but then you read the subtitle, Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved. And I think that describes what every human soul longs for.

We do want to be fully loved and fully known, and yet in a marriage, it's hard to do. So it's exciting to think of, they're the authors of Fierce Marriage and a website with a few people, like hundreds of thousands of people that they impact. And so this book is just another of a series that you guys are in. It's, you are a couple that is see through.

What's that mean? What does see through marriage mean? Well, first off, the title, you mentioned it, it's kind of given us some creative marketing, because if you go to Amazon and type in see through, you don't get a book title first.

But I think some people who are unintentionally aware of the book now because of that conflation there. But yeah, for us, transparency has just kind of been a way of living, I'd say, we've been doing Fierce Marriage for about seven years now, eight years. And one of the things that really drove us into that was realizing that, wow, there is kind of another level of intimacy that we've experienced because we had a pastor that had taught us what it meant to be transparent. And so that's kind of just bled into how we've communicated through marriage. And really, it's revolutionized our own marriage. We value it, and it's a big part of how we communicate. And so this book was just a response to all the response that we get from our readers and listeners saying, what does it mean? How do we do it? And how can we, you know, start that journey? So here we go.

Yeah, we definitely did not arrive there. It took a long time, I think, to cultivate, even for us, what does that mean? What does that look like day to day? You know, even big picture year to year?

What does that look like? How do we, it's more than just, you know, checking in and accountability, right? There's so much more to being transparent with each other than that. So, you guys would be different than, I mean, Anne described Dave and her as being kind of naturally just out there people. Would you say that you had to cultivate transparency?

It did not come as naturally to you? I think, I mean, I think for every sinner, right, you have to cultivate it to an extent. You have to realize that this walking in the light. So, we talk a lot in the book about 1 John 1, and it says that verse that we all kind of know is if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we will have fellowship with one another and we will be cleansed from unrighteousness.

So, I think that walking in the light, it becomes more intuitive, right, as we learn to rely on the Holy Spirit. I think in general, we live transparently just personality wise, right? Like, I'm a terrible actor. Like, I was in a play once as a kid, I could not like pretend to be somebody I wasn't.

It was horrible. And anytime I've been able to speak in front of, it's always got to be, you know, out of your heart. So, I think that's kind of natural in that regard. But in terms of being known in our sin and like being vulnerable and taking our shame to one another did take some very conscious, like, cultivating trust, cultivating our understanding of what it means to be loved in light of the gospel, what you guys were saying. Dave, you're talking about being fully known and still fully loved.

That's the beauty of the gospel, right? And we want that so badly in life and in marriage. And I think marriage is designed with that end in mind, but we just, it takes a kind of a leap of faith to get there to realize that, wow, you actually do still love me, even though I've brought this to you.

Right. And I think we can even tend to think that we are being transparent. But I think really our tendency, if we look at Genesis 3, our tendency is to hide, right? Our tendency is to get really good at hiding, to get really good at putting up these posturing and, you know, sharing maybe just enough, because I think there's this middle part of like, just enough and then too much, right? How do we know when to share what?

And how do we know that it's being productive and not more destructive? And so, I think that's something when you get married, you are, hopefully, this book will lead you to want to explore those areas more and not just think that, you know, you've got it figured out. Because I know we felt like we had stuff figured out and we felt like we were honest, but as you guys know, as you're married for longer and longer, you realize you're just getting better, you know, at hiding things maybe and not being so upfront because, you know, oh, they might not care.

You kind of, you rationalize it a little bit more. Now, when you go back to the, you mentioned Adam and Eve. If you go back to the first marriage, Adam and Eve, before Genesis 3, like Genesis 1 and 2, there's this phrase in there, and I'm wondering if this is what see-through marriage is, is they were naked and unashamed. Bob may say naked and unashamed, but they were.

No, no, I've heard it different ways. What's really interesting, I'll never forget, this is classic, a guy who mentored me in college. I came to Christ my junior year, so I'm a brand new Christian. I go over to his house, and he and his wife, they're married, and it's the first Christian marriage I'd ever seen.

I'd never experienced a Christian marriage. And again, a lot of great lessons from Bill, but one of the things he told me was somebody taught them before they got married that naked and unashamed meant you don't hide anything, you're completely open about everything in your life, including physically. So they encouraged, he and his wife, on your honeymoon, you should be naked at all times. And I'm like, what? And he said, so yeah, so we thought at least the first 48 hours, we're never gonna put clothes on.

I'm like, what? Are you making this up? He goes, I'm not making this up. He said the second night on our honeymoon, we were sitting in this hotel room playing Monopoly naked. And he said, he looked over at his wife, he goes, this is ridiculous.

Go put some clothes on. This is a true story. So that's not what you're saying, right? Please tell me that's not what you're saying. I mean, to each his own, I guess. No, definitely not.

To each his own. There is a real question in here. What would your understanding of what it doesn't mean to be naked and unashamed in your marriage? Obviously, it's not physically only, it's beyond that.

But what does that mean? Pete I mean, you mentioned, I love that you brought up the garden pre-fall, because that was, it was the ideal. It was how creation was designed to function and then here sin enters the picture and breaks everything and we are living in light of that brokenness. Thank God we have Jesus, that he has shown us a better tree, just like Adam and Eve used to run. They would run and they would hide in the trees, right? And then God is walking through the garden saying, you know, where are you?

What have you done? And it's not like God forgot where they were, couldn't find them, right? He was calling them into a reflective state of how the relationship had been broken. But in a similar way, we want to naturally kind of hide in the trees in the garden. We have a new tree now to hide behind and that is the person in the work of Christ on the cross and the sacrifice that he gave us, he gave himself for us. And so, to be naked and unashamed, I think in a true sense, okay, so it's really easy as marriage writers just to say, hey, just be honest, you know, and build trust and do all these things.

But like, okay, what's going to fuel that? Because that's, if that doesn't come from somewhere deeper, and my identity doesn't go deeper than just what I've done, and even who I am, my identity has to be in Christ. So, when in First John, when he writes, walk in the light, it's an active walking in the light, not just so I can be naked in front of you. It's not this like, I'm prideful. I'm naked, I'm ashamed, here I am, take it or leave it, right?

It's not that. It's I'm being transparent so that, so that we can go somewhere together so that we can be made, cleansed from righteousness so that we can have fellowship. So, I think, true, I think biblical transparency isn't just transparency for its own sake. It's transparency with an end in mind, and that is righteousness, that is fellowship, that is experience in greater depth of relationships, so that we can get a glimpse of what it's like to be known and loved by God in marriage. So, in terms of practicality, what should we be transparent about?

That's a good question. We could say anything, right? We could say, you know, addiction, sexual, you know, pornography, the kind of the buzzwords, finances, that I think all applies, but our personal sort of test is whatever that thing is that you want to hide, whatever that thing is that incites shame in you, whatever that thing is that incites fear instead of faith in you, that's the thing.

That's the thing that you need to figure out a way forward. I mean, I'll just use a really quick personal example. I had been watching sermons online. God had been working on my heart over a couple of weeks and out of the blue, I mean, out of the blue, I'm in my mid 30s, something from like when I was 10, 11, 12 years old that had happened, it popped into my memory that I'd never told Selena about, but it was very shameful for me. And so, maybe I had repressed it, maybe there's psychological reasons for why I couldn't remember that thing. But it was two instances where this popped in memory and I was like, oh man, I just hope these go back to the dark hole from which they came, right? I don't want to deal with this. I don't want to tell her, but I'm ashamed of this.

And God would not let it happen. I kept remembering. And so, about two weeks went by, my heart was being softened, but I kept kind of wanting it to harden again to this. So, finally, we were doing communion at church one morning and I just felt the Holy Spirit say like, today's the day, you have to just like, bring her into this.

And during communion, I just, I remember we were kind of praying. I said, we need to talk today. And it's, you know, I'm just, I'm really ashamed and I just want to talk.

I need to bring you in. Anyway, we ended up having a conversation. God was so gracious. Selena ended up opening up on some things that she had been kind of like, unknowingly not transparent with. And what was the result from that that we felt, I felt so loved because she looked at me and she just said, thank you for sharing. I still love you just as much as I did 10 seconds ago or 30 seconds ago. And that just brought us even closer.

And in that sense, I got to really experience God's grace. So, to answer your question, it's not that there's this like, checklist of things to be transparent about. I think it really is anything that you are hiding from your spouse, I think is a good candidate for being exposed. Selena, isn't there in all husbands and wives, just this voice that says, if your spouse knows this thing about you, or these things about you, they won't be able to get past that hurdle. You will be throwing into your marriage an obstacle that's going to be hard for anybody to overcome and still love you and think well of you if they know that this is true about you. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. I would say anybody kind of denying that is probably, you know, not really in their right mind. But yeah, that's the biggest hurdle of trying to figure out how do I tell them this part of me? How do I show them kind of the good, the bad and the ugly, right? We share a lot of the good, but how do we, how do I navigate this? Because I think we can think we're exposing things, right?

And then still kind of push some stuff under the carpet. I think it does take a certain, like we've mentioned earlier, a leap of faith to trust that God is big enough to help you find a way forward. You think it will shatter your trust, it will shatter your marriage.

You won't recover from it. You're protecting them from this truth. I think that's an act of faith. And some of it I think is understanding the process of when you bring big things to your marriage, right? It's not just, okay, I'm bringing you this big thing.

We're going to talk about it and we'll be good. Usually there's kind of a big mushroom cloud, right, of blowing up. Like there's probably going to be some fallout, some frustrations. There's going to need to be some time to kind of deal and let the dust settle, I guess.

And I think when we can expect that, we're not so surprised by that, which allows us to kind of persevere, I think, through that. Because I think sometimes we can just drop bombs and then, oh no, it's not going to work. Or I don't want to drop that bomb.

I'm too afraid. And the Lord might be leading you into doing that because He has a deeper peace. He has a, you know, deeper unity for you guys to experience together.

And so. I'm thinking about two different categories because there are some things that we would be hesitant to be transparent about because I want Maryanne to admire me. And if I revealed this about me, that's going to make me less admirable.

So that's one thing. It's character flaws in me, deficiencies, like what you described, Ryan. If she knew this is a part of my background, she's going to think less of me. Then the other things are ways in which we sin against one another. Things that we've done where we may keep it hidden. I'm imagining a husband who's involved in pornography. He doesn't want to be transparent about that with his wife because he's sinning against her. And if she learns that, then he's busted.

That's when the mushroom cloud is really going to go off in their marriage. So let's talk first about those situations where we're thinking, if you really knew the things I think about from time to time, if you really knew things about my past that are shameful, if you really knew what I said to a coworker today, things that would make me look bad to you, I'm just afraid you would think, why did I marry you? Or I wish I hadn't married you.

Or I don't want to still be married to you if that's the kind of person you really are. We feel that because we feel such shame in ourselves being that way. We don't want to tell somebody else the shameful parts of who we are.

Jared Yeah, I mean, there's a posture, right, in marriage that I think is really, it's really unique. It's an opportunity. And we don't talk about it enough, I don't think, in the Western church, this idea of contrition, right? Especially true repentance to one another and basically bringing something not just with that heart of, again, 1 John 1, I'm walking in the light so that there's a reason for this.

I'm going to share this thing with you that I don't want to share with you, but here's why. Because I know I need to be cleansed from it. I know that I want to have fellowship with you. And so, it's that deep underlying purpose for doing it, I think, that just gives all the power because then it's rooted in the gospel and not just in alleviating shame.

Because a lot of times we'll share something because I feel guilty, I just want to get it off my conscience. How often has that really led to heart change? But when you're doing something with the sole aim of being made more righteous and to have fellowship with another, that's powerful stuff.

It's really powerful stuff. So, it really does matter what your heart posture is, headed into it. Of course, there's all kinds of ways how that could look, but I think by far the most important is the underlying identity, heart posture, and then being smart about how you present it and still being honest in that.

I think this can be really difficult. And yet, when we first got married, I told Dave, I want to know everything about you. I want to know what makes you tick.

I want to know everything. Well, then as we're married a while, he starts telling me everything. And honestly, I was like, wait, I hate this part. When Dave came and shared with me this struggle with pornography, like I thought to myself, do I want to know this?

Because it's really hard and I'm offended and I'm hurt and I feel incredible shame myself. It brings up all my own junk. And I think that's a really good question because we think, oh, this is going to be awesome.

I'm going to know everything. And it can be really difficult to go there. And it took us probably years to kind of, not only getting to pornography, but going into deeper issues of growing up and shame and abuse and alcohol. We didn't know how much it was affecting us until we talked to one another about it. And as a result, it almost became like we were each other's counselors. But there is something about when the other person sees all of you and you can still be loved in the midst of that. There is a oneness and intimacy that really can't be described.

It's beautiful. It is the gospel, as we just said, but it can be really messy. Yeah. I mean, one of the markers of that level of transparency is, again, the gospel focus. But without that, we run the risk of being enablers and we go toward the direction of codependence, right? Because if there's not a desire that is kind of birthed in us through the power of the Holy Spirit to be made more righteous, then it just becomes about behavior modification, right? And so, well, we've seen some wives, particularly, I mean, it goes both sides, but wives will write in and say like, I know my husband is dealing with this thing. I don't want to bring it up because I'm just trying to maintain the level of peace that we have in our household. And so, there's like a codependence that develops there.

It's very unhealthy. So, in that case, transparency is not actually moving you forward. All you're doing is just learning how to coexist with the sin and that is, we're called out of that as believers. We're called to address it lovingly and persistently and fight the fight, run the race.

Like, these are arduous words, word pictures given to us in God's Word. And so, we always contrast peace making versus peacekeeping, right? Jesus in Matthew 5, Sermon on the Mount says, blessed are the peacemakers, right? And it doesn't say peacekeepers, it's peacemakers.

There's actually the Jewish word is shalom under there, right? That all-encompassing peace that comes from God and that is a circumspect peace. It's not just quiet. It's not just stillness. It is peace that goes down to the root of who you are. We're not called to be peacekeepers, but peacemakers. And so, that means sometimes creating unrest so that we can have a greater, deeper peace and that is the hard work of making peace that God is calling us into. Pete And can you kind of run us through the three lies that you talk about that keep us from pursuing transparency?

Jared Yeah. Yeah, actually, I love this one because Selena brought the lie language into this, which I think is really good because one of the best ways to work through truth in our lives is to understand the lies that tend to keep us from those truths. And the first one is, what I just kind of talked about is we can't be transparent because I'm trying to keep what little piece I have. So, I don't want to rehash it, but just like we said, that's the tendency is really just, I'm exhausted. I can't gear up for another fight on this.

I've tried, we've already been there, but I'm saying, I think God is calling us into a place of endurance here, of calling and resting in Him and fighting the good fight to create and make peace the way we're called. Selena The second one is, I need the time alone so I can work on myself. Writing this one was a little too personal, I think. It was a little too close to home because I think that's my tendency is to just, let me just go figure this out. Let me just, you know, let God and I just work it out. And then I'll come back to you, you know, whole and ready to go ready to be married again, you know, and I think we then rob our spouse of so much and we rob our marriage and our relationship of so much growth and potential for like unity.

And again, like you said, experiencing intimacy. And then the third one is my marriage isn't that bad. It's definitely not as bad as theirs. So, comparison game is strong in marriage stuff.

It's not, it's, it just crushes everyone, right, involved. And, you know, 2 Corinthians 10, 12, Paul, he states that those who compare are without understanding, right? And so, we are kind of boasting in our own knowledge, our own, like, abilities, rather than boasting in the work of the Lord, which typically comes about through brokenness and comes about through our weaknesses. Pete And we call it idol polishing. Kirsten Yeah. Pete In our own marriage, in that we're like, exchanging one, like, Kirsten One idol for another. Pete Like, oh man, I feel so bad about our life because whatever that thing is, right, or our life's not as together as theirs, our Instagram feed isn't nearly as interesting or exotic or whatever. We don't go to all these places and then we'll come from each other and be like, well, listen, they're terrible in these ways. And so, we just like, polish our idols.

And it's like, they fight all the time. So, we're better. Kirsten We're good.

We only fight like, once a week. Pete That's, I mean, that's, how silly is that? We're not called to compare like, same or same. We're being fools. Kirsten Not productive. Pete We need to boast in the Lord and what He has done in our lives. That is the only spot for us to actually have confidence. Kirsten And we don't actually get to boast. We get to boast about our weakness. Pete Yes, yes.

Kirsten And we are really boasting about God's glory. Pete Well, I think, you know, as I look at those three lies, and I'm sure there's more, but I'm guessing a lot of couples have experienced all three. I know as I read them in the book, I was like, whoa, I did number one. Oh, I did number two. Oh, I did number three.

I did all three. It was like, I don't want to tell her what I'm struggling with. And again, we've been married 40 years.

So, this is in year five. So, we're early in our marriage. I'm struggling with porn.

This is before digital porn. But still, I've got this private little struggle, and I'm hiding, like Adam and Eve in the garden. And our marriage is good. Kirsten But I could tell something was going on. He would say, our marriage is good. I would say, our marriage is weird right now.

Something's happening. Pete I'd say, yeah, but you see Joe and Sally's marriage? It's a lot better than that one. Pete So, number three is up there, yeah. Kirsten So, there I am.

And then number two is I need time alone. That's what I was playing in my head is I'll get a handle on this. And if I get a handle on it, which I will, of course, then it won't be a problem.

So, I probably won't even need to bring it up because it'll be under control. Kirsten And why hurt me? Pete Yeah. And I was not expecting what you guys shared earlier is when, you know, you shared something fully known, you were fully loved. I'm thinking if I'm fully known, really fully known, fully transparent, I will not be fully loved. Kirsten Well, I wasn't very good at loving you at the beginning. Pete No, and that's, it didn't go well.

And I'm bringing this up because I know there are couples that have experienced the same thing. Maybe you did as well. It's like, okay, I had the courage, I finally let the light in.

Because when you're in the dark, you know, dark is going to suffocate, you're going to lose. And so, finally, I'm like, okay, I got to tell her and I did. And so, I'm now living see-through marriage and she blew up. And it felt like at that time, like, I should have never said it. This is hurting our marriage.

She doesn't, I don't know, she really loves me. She's like, she didn't know this, now she knows. But here's where we're at. And again, this is a process for us.

It didn't get handled in a month or even six months. But now as I look back, and yeah, she blew up for a while and there was anger and then there were tears and there was hurt. Now I look back and think it was worth the pain to be fully known because I feel more loved now than I, because if I continue to hide that, I'm not really loved.

It's a false, superficial love, but she sees it all and I'm loved. And that's the gospel. You know, we get to experience it in our marriage, what we experienced in our vertical relationship with Christ, that's the beauty of it.

So, I would just say to the husband or wife listening, have the courage. It's scary. It is really scary. It's a great book title.

It's a scary thing to do. But when you do it, that book title becomes a great marriage. See Through Marriage is beautiful because you experienced literally the gospel in the horizontal.

It isn't just vertical now. And even to ask God, God, is there anything that I'm hiding from my spouse? And if you try it and you say, okay, I'm going to be transparent and vulnerable, and it doesn't go well, because it may not, your spouse may be hurt. Just know that you can keep pressing in and persevering and be humble and be gentle and be loving.

And where you'll get on the other side, you'll have to go through a valley through some pain to get there, but where you'll get will be richer and deeper and a more authentic kind of love than what you're experiencing, as long as you keep the veneer up and it's just a superficial relationship. Ryan and Selena dive deep into this in their book See Through Marriage, which is a book we've got in our Family Life Today Resource Center. You can go online at familylifetoday.com to get a copy, or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the title of the book is See Through Marriage, Experiencing the Freedom and Joy of Being Fully Known and Fully Loved by Ryan and Selena Frederick. Order your copy online at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-358-6329.

That's 1-800-F, as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. One of the things that can interfere with intimacy and with transparency in a marriage is if we've ever experienced betrayal in a relationship. We talked about this earlier this week when Phil Waldrop joined us on Family Life Today, and his book Beyond Betrayal is a book that we're making available to Family Life Today listeners who can help support the ministry with a donation. I think most of you realize that the reason we were able to have this conversation today and you were able to join in is because a listener like you cared enough about this kind of ministry happening that they made a donation to support the ongoing work of Family Life Today. If you'd like to see this continue, pay it forward, invest in the lives of other couples, you can do that by donating today. Go to familylifetoday.com, make an online donation, or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.

When you do, again, ask for your copy of Phil Waldrop's book Beyond Betrayal. We're happy to send it to you as a way to say thank you for investing in the lives of so many people and supporting the work of Family Life Today. And we hope you can join us again tomorrow when we're going to talk about the fear that is there in a relationship that keeps us from being transparent with one another and what we do about that. Ryan and Celina Frederick join us tomorrow. Hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas, a crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.