Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Uh It feels like when you say, like, my spouse died, my child died, I have a disease, there's no question about your character. Like, nobody thinks, oh, wow, what did you do? But the minute somebody says, I got divorced, our first question is: what did you do?
Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.
Okay, I'm pretty excited about this topic today because I'm not sure we've really covered this topic at Family Life Today very often. This might be the first time. Yeah, because they're in the studio. Wow. And you may be the first person.
I mean, I've got to say that. We've talked about it, but I'm not sure we've done a book. On the topic of people are like, What are you talking about? Tell us. Your book is called This Was Never the Plan.
Walking with God. I like that you put with God through the heartache of divorce. And we know the divorce rate is what? Do you know what it is now? No, Anita?
I think it's over 50% out. Yeah, it is in the culture, and it's 23% in the church. Wow. So I got to start here. How many times have you been on Family Life Today?
First time we met you was in Little Rock. Yes. Yeah. And you were on before we met you. No, I think you were my first experience.
So, this is the third time, and I love being on the show. I mean, I can do this every week. We just love you because what you're producing, what you're writing, your Bible studies, your books are incredibly practical, vulnerable, and helpful. I'm just saying they're amazing. But I feel like maybe you've walked through a divorce, or maybe.
One of your kids is walking through a divorce, a friend, or even it could be that your parents walked through this and you wish they would have done it in a healthier way.
So, what prompted you to write this?
Well, what prompted me to write this was my editor. I would like to say the Holy Spirit came first, but it was my editor who approached me twice and said, Do you want to write this book? We, you know, we think there's a need. And I said, I'm sure there's a need, but I am not your girl. Because in the Christian community, even now, like, you don't want to lead with divorce.
So I was like, no, I can lead with suffering, but not divorce. And then the third time he came back to me and said, our whole team has prayed about it. Have you prayed about it? I was like, what a novel idea praying about it. But you're like, I don't need to pray.
I don't need to pray. God has already told me.
So Joel and I prayed about it. And I was like, yeah, I need to do this. But I realized like the reason we don't talk about there's not that many books is because there's still shame. around it, no matter what the reason is. It feels like when you say, like, my spouse died, my child died, I have a disease.
There's no question about your character. Like, nobody thinks, oh, wow, what did you do? But the minute somebody says, I got divorced. Our first question is, what did you do? Kind of like, you know, I do think about John 9, where they see a man blind from birth.
And in those days, you know, they asked Jesus, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind. We unconsciously ask that question. When somebody says, I got a divorce, it's who sinned? And we think, what part did you play? Yes.
Exactly. And you must not be pro-marriage, or maybe your faith isn't exactly what I thought. And they may not be thinking any of that. Right. Right.
Or they may be thinking all of that. Yeah. Right. I mean, because I mean, I'm going to be honest. When somebody just says, oh, I just got a divorce, you're kind of looking like, are you happy?
You know, like, we don't know. And so we kind of have that question. I feel like very few people just approach it neutrally. Do you think that's why there hasn't been much written on it from a biblical viewpoint? Yeah.
Because one. I think there is, you don't want to put it out there. Like, I didn't want to be known as the woman who went through a divorce. And, two, you really need to be clear about. Biblical divorce.
Because in our culture, with the divorce rate being so high, a lot of times it's, we were never meant to be, or we argued all the time, we're better people being apart. And those are not reasons to get divorced. And so you have to be really clear about biblical divorce, I think, as a Christian when you want to talk about it. Yeah, well, when I first picked up, Your book and saw the title. I did not see the subtitle.
So my first thought wasn't even about divorce. This was never the plan. I thought, I know your life story. Can you give our listeners, and there's people watching, a little backstory? Yeah.
So that wasn't the plan. And then you get married, and there's another that's not the plan.
So, so I was born in India. And when I was three months old, I contracted polio.
Now, in India, you don't get the vaccine at three months, usually it was six months. Polio had pretty much been eradicated, not totally, but I got it. The doctors didn't know what I had.
So they gave me cortisone to lower my fever. It was 105. How old were you? Three months old.
So they really needed to do something quickly, or I would have had brain damage. But within a few days, I was a quadriplegic. Then they realized, oh, wow, she doesn't have, they thought I had typhoid. She has polio, but there was really nothing they could do. I could not move my arms or legs.
So my parents left India, moved to England, moved to Canada, had 21 operations. By the time I was 13, lived in the hospital, really one year all by myself. Like my parents could only visit on weekends. I was in a ward. Grew up really angry at God, but came to Christ at 16 through the teaching of John 9, the verse I just mentioned, and really thought I was about to live my best life now.
Like, truly, I remember thinking, I've had my suffering. This is all that I've done. And now I have a testimony. Exactly. And so I was just so excited about telling people: like, you commit your life to Christ, and it is going to be perfection.
And it was for like 14, 15 years. It was as great as I can. You know, I could imagine, but then physically, you're good, you're walking. Yeah, yeah. I mean, lived in Boston, had my dream job, walked to work, lived on Beacon Hill, this prestigious thing was all into my career.
Went to grad school, met and married a classmate. It was great. But then I had four miscarriages after we were married. That's a lot. And that was really hard.
That was my first, like, oh my, wow, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. And then infant son, Paul, who died because a doctor made a mistake in his care. How old was he? He was two months old. And that was just.
You know, gut-wrenching. And that song, Natalie Grant's song, held a friend of mine, wrote it, and it was really about Paul the beginning. You know, two months is too little, but they let him go. And so that was a traumatic thing. And then six years after that, I was diagnosed with post-polio syndrome, which I didn't know what it was.
So I'm sure most people don't. But basically, my body is going backwards. They said my strength and energy is like money in a bank. Everything I do makes a withdrawal. And eventually I will be back to where I was, which was quadriplegia.
And it's been a slow decline. I mean, now I use a wheelchair more than I walk. My arms are really, really weak.
So just kind of adjusting to that. And then six years ago. And you had your daughters.
So my daughters were born. One was born before Paul died and one was born right after Paul died. And then I had a miscarriage. And that was, you know, and two other miscarriages in between. Six years after that diagnosis, my husband at the time came home and said he had met someone else.
He said he was in love with her. And a month later, he moved out and I was left to parent two adolescent daughters as a single parent. And, you know, just wondering where God was. I mean, it was the hardest thing because there's so many layers of it and people don't know what to say.
Well, Vanita, I'm thinking about the listener who's hearing your story for the first time. And maybe they're thinking this like. Were you mad at God? That feels like these are things that are out of your control. Miscarriages, your son's debt, like so much of that.
Not your fault. Yeah. Did you ever think, God, where are you?
So, I would say I was mad at God, certainly before I came to Christ and I didn't know God. Really, Pretty shaken after Paul died. Like, just where is God? This is not the plan. This is not what I signed up for.
You know, I would say this is not the ticket I bought when I signed up to become a Christian. And you wrote about this in your other books. Yes. But after this, I felt like God hated me, honestly. I was like, does God hate me?
But I wasn't, and I screamed that in my pastor's house. Like, why does God hate me? But I don't know if I was as mad at God as I had been before because I had tasted the goodness of God. And Before you've tasted the goodness of God, you can be really angry. But when you know, like, God has worked through the worst things, like for me, the post polio, my son's death.
And I have seen how God has shown up for me. You've seen his goodness. Yeah. And you would say he's good. Yeah.
So at first I was like, do you hate me? But in many ways, I did know that God loved me. And I knew I was angry, but for me, not as much at God because. I have been convinced more than anything else that God is good and everything God does is good. I mean, what is your.
Sounds like you've already said it, maybe, but what's your theology of suffering? Because. I think we live in a country because we're so prosperous and so blessed that in the church, and I've been a pastor four decades, there's not often a theology of suffering when it happens. We're mad, we're angry, we think God abandoned us rather than no, this is. It was never the plan.
And the plan never is what we think it's going to be. But God's with me.
So, do you have a perspective of suffering that makes sense? Yeah, well. I mean, kind of like these two verses that I think are overused, and I don't love people quoting them to me, but they're really the bedrock of my faith. One is Romans 8:28, which somebody said to me at my son's funeral, and I was so angry. I was like, don't ever say this to somebody to try to make them make sense of their suffering.
But it is truly what helped me. And that is all things work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. Recognizing it doesn't feel good. And in like, just even looking at Job, I think Job is a perfect example of the theology of suffering. Like Satan was the immediate cause.
You know, Satan is the one who actually chose to, because of what, you know, God said you can do anything, Satan did that. But God is the one that permitted it, and God is the one that used it to sanctify Job. And, you know, we see that in Genesis 50:20, when Job. Joseph's brothers come to him and ask for forgiveness and Joseph says, You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. And so that's my theology of suffering: God means everything for our good.
So, yeah, I, some of it I may not understand. And I mean, there's a little story, if I could just tell it. When I was two years old, my mom says that I was in the hospital. It was my first surgery. And when I came out of surgery, I was so angry at my parents.
Like, I would not look at them. I would not, like, my mom came in the room and I just kept turning my head like, no, I'm not going to look at you. And finally, she just sat down beside my bed and she put her hands over her face and started crying. And I softened and I was like, I said to my mom, take away the pajamas. I won't be naughty again.
And my mom realized I thought suffering, my pain, was to punish me. And then I told her I was going to eat my peas. And my mom said she was heartbroken. And so she said to me, no, no, no, this is for your good. You're going to be able to walk one day.
And I was like, I don't want to walk. Like my dad carries me everywhere. I'm taller than everybody else who's two. Like, of course I don't want to walk. This is painful and I don't want it.
But now I know that I wouldn't be able to walk if I hadn't had that surgery and if my parents hadn't put me through that time and time again when I didn't understand it and I didn't even see the good of walking. And I think that's kind of a picture of suffering for us. Like it just feels like pain and maybe we cannot understand it. My two-year-old mind could not understand what was good about that, but I trusted my mom. And it's a lot of it is: do we trust that God is good?
And if we do, Then Suffering in the hands of a good God will be good for us. Uh As a mom, have you ever lost your temper and thought, wow, how did that escalate so fast? Because mom anger usually isn't just about the spilled milk or sibling arguments and that gets you angry, but there's often something deeper going on. We have been there. And guess what?
We've got a five-session video series from author and mom of four, Janelle Breitenstein. And let me tell you, she gets real. She gets real about her life and her anger and her own struggles with anger and what God has taught her through them. And let me tell you, you're going to discover practical tools, biblical encouragement, and you'll get insight into the fears and triggers fueling your reactions. It's so good.
So you can sign up today at familylife.com slash mom anger. Again, that's familylife.com slash mom anger. I look at the man I am today and it comes through suffering. You grow in adversity, not prosperity. Yeah.
I mean, you can grow in prosperity, but you usually don't. Growth comes. Character is built. Do you think people that have gone through a divorce can say that? I mean, you've written this whole book about this.
Yeah, I think if you turn to God in suffering. You will learn to love God even more. Your faith will deepen, your character will change. If you turn away in bitterness, like suffering can make people super bitter. And I feel like divorce is one that sometimes somebody might say, I'm divorced.
And the second thing they want to tell you, even years later, is all their ex-spouse did. to them.
So it's like a crossroads. Like you have a choice. Yes. To go toward divorce. Yeah, I'm looking at your opening chapter.
You say divorce is the great undoing that leaves believers standing in the wreckage of a life they never planned. Yeah. Whoa.
So when your husband says, I'm leaving you. What happened? What'd you think? Were you mad at God then, too? Mad at him?
I was mad at him. More than God. I mean, I was just so bewildered. I remember like the ground was shaking. It took me a long time to, I mean, like days to even think clearly.
Like some, I felt like I was pushing through a fog, even trying to make sense of things because it was so disorienting. I was so shocked by it. I thought it was so descriptive of you sitting in the doctor's office. Share that because I think every person that's walked through divorce that they never wanted, nobody ever wants to get a divorce, but you're in the doctor's office. Yeah.
So new doctor, I had back pain. And so, you know, you're filling out the forms and that thing is check the box, you know, single, married, divorced. And I was like, I don't. I don't feel divorced. I'm just divorced.
You know, and then I'm like, why is this any of their business? You know, I just have a ton of questions. But then finally, I check the box, I move on. But then I'm thinking, I wonder what they're going to think.
So I turn it in, and then I go in, and the doctor walks in, who I've never seen before, and he's staring at my chart. And I'm thinking, he sees I'm divorced. He's wondering, why did she get divorced? Yeah. And so I said, Hey, I just, I just want you to know I'm not the kind of person that, you know, wanted to get divorced.
I sent this to your son. I had to give it to him. And he looked up at me and he's like, I'm just checking your chart to see where your back hurts exactly. I'm like, yeah, right.
Okay. He didn't really need to know that, but it was like, I thought he was taking a little too long. And in my mind, that needed to be his first question because I had agonized over it.
So.
Well, isn't there a sense, though, you know, in the church anyway, you walk in as a divorced person and you feel like you got a scholarly letter on your forehead because so many are married and it looks like their marriages are perfect. At least at church and you feel like an outcast.
So you felt the same thing at Doctor's. I got to explain this. Yeah. I felt like I needed to explain it to everyone. I might be a little of an overexplainer.
So, you know, I just. I've I felt a lot of shame, you know, but I couldn't really explain the all the reasons because they were complicated and I had young kids. They were 10 and 13 at the time. But I do feel like shame plays a big part, especially if it's it's something that you didn't see coming, didn't want. You feel like, ah, wow.
I'm being judged. And I think the church, and that's, doesn't do a great job of that. I feel like my church was wonderful, but there are people in the church that were still like, ah, should she be teaching Bible study? Shouldn't we be questioning her more? And I remember one of my daughters was in the bathroom when she heard two people walk in and they were talking about our family.
And, you know, we had been really involved in the church and kind of like questioning us, like, oh, did we all know what was going on? And, you know, our pastor was super supportive. And when they said, Should I be teaching Bible study? He's like, Absolutely, she should. Like, I know this situation.
But there's lots of people that don't come to you, lots of questions you don't hear. And you feel conspicuous sitting alone, you know, especially with these families, with these kids who are highlighting in their Bible. And, you know, my kids are making paper airplanes with the bulletin.
So, well, I'm thinking even of you coming into that situation with all. These people that know you, that know your spouse, your ex-spouse, I would want to over-explain and say, He cheated on me. Yeah. So that they know it's not me. Like, you know, you didn't have to point at me when you said that.
I would want to just knowing me, I'd be like, it's not me. Yes. Did you have that feeling? I wanted to so much. And you have girls.
Yes. So I had a sign that I would literally read every day on my bulletin board, which was faith is trusting God to set the record straight. And I just had to do that because you can't tell it all. And, you know, you don't want everybody knowing about the situation when you have young girls that, you know, once you tell one piece of it, then everybody wants to add to it. Kind of like the game of telephone.
You have no idea where that's going. And I felt like I needed to keep it pretty close. And for my girls and for the Lord, like I am telling about it now, but it's been a long, long time. But even for the way they perceive their dad. Yes.
And that was really important to me, was not trash talking him or, you know, I wanted him to tell them what they needed to know.
So at the very beginning when he moved out, they didn't know why. And that was. Gout-wrenching for me. There was a lot of details I kept from them, and they were really angry at me. And I was like, I would have to read that every day.
Faith is trusting God to set the record straight. Because you can't do that. If you're a listener, you might need to make that sign and hang it and read it every day. Yeah. Put it on the mirror.
What's it say again? Faith is trusting God to set the record straight. You know, because your kids eventually will grow up and get to know the situation differently and get to know their father and mother themselves. But I knew that it was really important for me for my kids to have a good relationship with their dad, and their dad loved them. And I did not want to make that any harder.
But that was hard for me because I was off and kind of the bad guy, and they didn't know all the situation. And it was like, okay, am I willing? To let it go and not over-explain. I love your chapter titles, like even the chapter that says Tears, Fears, and the Tenderness of God. Like, that's very descriptive.
How did you experience the tenderness of God? I feel like I grew more than I ever have in my life through the tragedy. And this one was different. This was different because I was alone and I had two kids who were at the time really angry. And then I still had the disability.
So it was, we're six years down the road.
So it was really like I couldn't drive my kids everywhere I needed to. You know, my husband at the time was doing a lot of that.
So all of a sudden, everything fell on me.
So I felt this weight. That I can't even describe how hard it was. I mean, every game, my daughter played basketball in college, but you know, at that age, it was, you know, lots of basketball games and practices. And it was a lot. And so I remember just getting up in the morning and just crying out to God in ways that I don't think I had before because the Bible had been like, okay, I'm going to do my quiet time, check that, let's move on with my day.
Not always. I taught the Bible, but it wasn't life always to me. It was sometimes duty. But then I remember saying to God, this can't be duty. I mean, I need you to meet me.
And, you know, the verse that I would say every day is Psalm 119, 25, my soul clings to the dust. Revive me according to your word. And I would open the Bible and I'd say, God, you have to show up. Like, I can't make it through this day. My girls are going to be in here soon.
And I'm going to be in tears.
So I need you. And. I realize we all need to do that, whether we're in crisis or not. But I was going to say, that's where we need to be every day. Yeah, we need to be in expectation, but I didn't even know I could be in expectation till then.
But I was like, God, I'm taking it to you. Like, you've got to show up. You've got to be real. You've got to make this Bible real because this is all I got. I'm just going to say I always love being with Beneatha Rice.
She can come back anytime. Anytime. And by the way, again, her book is called This Was Never the Plan. You can get it at familylifetoday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes.
And we've got her back tomorrow again, so you don't want to miss tomorrow. Before we're done today, let me just say this. At Family Life, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a Family Life partner, you help make that happen. And I don't know if you realize this, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.
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