This episode is supported in part by the Christian Standard Bible, a translation designed to be faithful to the original text and clear for everyday readers. We're grateful for their partnership in helping bring gospel-centered content to families like yours. To learn more about the CSB, visit csbible.com. Yeah. Are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of mom and dad or grandma and grandpa?
No.
Okay, good. Let's keep that. And so just being a light there and sharing Jesus and whatever, whatever they do. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.
And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Honey, we're talking about your favorite topic of today. Yes, we are. What is it?
Gaming. I don't know if it's gaming or the is it is it called the meta universe? We've got Jonathan Ober, who goes by Ober. Yes. Yeah, and I've got to ask you about Jonathan, and I got to try this.
Frank Kulagowski. That was perfect. Was it perfect? I would see a fan can say that's Kuligowski. Oh, you're so good.
Yep, that's it. You've got the VR. What do you call that thing over there? This is a virtual reality VR headset. What in the world are you guys doing in this universe?
And how do you know? We're going into different worlds where we're meeting other people. And when I say worlds, it could be something like an internet cafe, could be a Japanese Shinto temple type place. You're actually online in that space? Yes, we are visiting a virtual world that someone has created.
Maybe it looks like a real place. Maybe it looks like a real world. like something fantastical that they've made up. Um there could be a giant whale. Swimming in the sky and beautiful ocean water just kind of lapping up against the shore.
So, any kind of thing you could think of, there might be a world out there where you could go and visit. Can you just like knock on the door and walk in? How do you get in? There's these things called portals, and you can throw a portal out and bring a friend with you, and you just walk through and think of it as just like a giant oval that has a picture of that world, and you're there in a matter of seconds. People are busy right now, waiting.
Are we listening to family life today? Yes, you are. And this is a place where a lot of our kids, our young adults, us, like a lot of us are going to these places. Yeah. What happens when you get there?
What do you do?
So, a lot of what we're trying to do is meet people where they are. And so, we approach them and sometimes we just say, Hi, how are you doing today? And that could turn into a conversation where they're not a lot different than if you walked into a park. No, not a lot different. And they're sitting there and you just were a nice guy and you say, Hey, how are you doing?
And you see. If they want to talk, is there a yeah, wait, is this different from playing video games online, which everybody's doing? Yes, we use VR chat when we're going into that. And what is VRChat for the people that aren't the gamers? It is an application, typically on a virtual reality headset.
So you can go on your phone. It does have an element of a phone app and a computer PC app, but you're. Going on there and essentially to meet other people, or maybe just hang out at a virtual space. And we say, How are you doing today? And sometimes that can be retorted, like somebody might curse at you, unfortunately.
But a lot of what we're finding is that there are people that are just lost in their own world. And maybe the only place that they find freedom or they find connection is in the virtual space. And so when we say, How are you doing?
Sometimes that person responds, I'm doing all right. I personally like to say, what do you mean by all right? What's going on that you're only all right? Because if you're not good or you're not great, Something's going on. And so that then can steamroll into a conversation of maybe their life with their family is not great and they're in or in a relationship that's broken, a girlfriend or boyfriend.
I recall an experience where I met a person, they go by the name of Hasuka. And I went up to them and I just said, How are you doing? And, you know, he was like, I'm doing okay. And I said, okay, well, tell me a little bit about that. And he was sharing a little bit.
And in that conversation, he asked me, What was I doing in VR chat? I said, Well, I come in here with a group of friends over my lunch break. And he was like, Well, how do you get, you know, enough time for your lunch break? And I was like, Well, I work for this organization called Family Life. And a part of that, we have this group that go into VR chat to share the gospel and meet people where they're at and just point them to Jesus.
He said, I am a new Christian. And he said, I've been struggling to find a church. And this person is from Australia.
So, again, VR chat, you're meeting people from all over the world. And so, he starts sharing a little bit then about how his parents don't believe in Jesus. They don't take him to church. They don't want anything to do with it. And he was looking for community.
And so, that perked up in me. The community that we have, we have a Discord group, which is an application where people can come on and chat and be a part of communities. And so I said, Hey, we have this gaming place where people like you who may be new Christians or have been Christians for a while can come and meet others, game together, build community, but foster friendships and get resources on how they can then share the gospel with others. And so within that hour that I talked to Huska, he was like, I know that God brought you into this space today to talk to me, to encourage me, and then to invite me in. Within probably six hours or so, he was in our Discord and communicating with other people.
And now he's a part of our community.
So, Frank, how did you guys fall into this? You've known each other for a while. It's not like you're these teenage boys. You guys are married with families. Yes.
First of all, like, tell us about that part. Like, you've been married. For a while. Yeah, so I have been interested in how God is using technology in the church spaces and in Kuru family life and how he's building his kingdom. And it was 2022 in the summer that I heard about a particular webinar or some a day of different talks.
I was listening and doing some work, and different people got on and shared a little bit from this angle: technology and church and technology. But then one guy got on. His name is Pastor Brock, and he just got on there and said, I go into virtual reality. I share my faith. You got to come.
And it was a call, it was an invitation. It wasn't as much. He's come with me, and he's just saying, please, all you were listening, come with me. And I thought, I want to go.
So I had never been in VR or anything. And like, I knew some video game, and we were trying to do some video game stuff, but virtual reality, I didn't have experience with that. And I thought, so I talked to my wife and said, actually, Beth, hey, I heard this thing. What would you think if we got a, you know, a headset? You know, and she's like, okay.
So I didn't even have a headset. I didn't have a headset or anything. I'm captivated by this Pastor Brock, his invitation, come with me to share the gospel. It sounds like, you know, when you said that, I said, remember Jesus saying, come and see? Yeah.
Come and see. And it was just like an invitation. How old are your kids? Come take a look.
So there, I guess it was. 14, 16, and 18. Those my at that time, this is four years ago. We're like, do we have the coolest dad in the world? Did they think that?
Well, actually, I asked my son who was 18, and he's really into tech. And I said, John, can you help me set this up?
So I went to Best Buy. I got one. I came home. And hey, can you help me with this? He's like, sure.
And he gets, yeah, and fiddles with it. And yeah. And so I reached out to this Pastor Brock and asked him more. And so I want to do this. And so I went into the platform of the program VR chat.
There's a number of them out there, but this one in particular, there's a lot of chatting going on. People are engaging one another. And I just jumped in. And I'll share this really quickly.
So I'm in my living room. And my my wife Beth is there and one of my daughters and it it's night time and I'm I put it on and I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this and I, you know, get in there. I'm kind of looking around.
So I'm physically in my living room with the headset, and I'm looking around, and all of a sudden, I saw this. creature like this ball and then these little little eyes on top and then A voice came, and it was a really young kid. He says, I'm not scary, I'm just young. And then just like, Scurried off. I thought, whoa.
So you design your own little avatars. Avatars. And this particular avatar, it just caught me off guard and I just kind of turned over and it was like right next to me. And I was like, wow. And so I started exploring.
I started talking to some friends and hey, we want to do that. And they started going and we did. And that's how I got into virtual reality.
Now, there's a number of the term I've heard is platforms or applications. There's a bunch of them out there, but this particular one that Ober and I go. is primarily set up for conversation and talking. It's VR chat.
Now there are games. People. Play pool and hide and seek, and there's a bunch of games, but a lot of worlds are just set up. To have conversations. I mean, is it generally as you walk in, like, let's talk VR chat?
Is it generally... light and Up or is there darkness? Because parents are like, this sounds dangerous. I mean, immediately when we said a little kid, you know, a parent goes, oh, this is where trafficking and bad things happen. There is.
So I'm sure there's some of that. And the other side is like, thinking about guys like you going in there with the light of Jesus, like, wow, that's a really good thing.
So is it both and? Yeah, I would say it's both and I mean, there are definitely worlds that are like you're gonna go to a bar or a nightclub or worse. And within those, because even though there's a limitation, an age restriction of like you need to be 13 and up. Nobody follows that, and so there are little kids in there, and there's other spaces where you might go in and you can say whatever you want, nobody's. Policing the language.
Now, as users, once you're in there, if somebody is. Specifically, like maybe have some racism or some, you know, very coarse language, and that you can click on them and you can mute them so that you just don't have to hear it. And I've done that. I think you've probably done that too. You can even go a step further and then just like hide them from view like they don't even exist.
Like, boom, they're gone. They could be right in front of you. And they disappear. Yeah. And I was going to say, on top of like you had shared a little bit about your kids and experiencing you being in there, I have two daughters, and both of them have been in, not necessarily in VR chat, but I know one of my daughters, she and I have gone in together with the same idea of like, hey, let's have a conversation with people because I'm.
43.
Some people are, as soon as you say, like, you know, like, hey, I'm 43, you know, if they ask and I'm like, yeah, I'm 43. And they're like, oh, I'm done. I'm not having a conversation with you. Or they find out, you know, you start sharing about Jesus.
Sometimes, you know, that turns people off. And so my daughter, who is 16, who has been going in VR for probably three years now, so. Right at the 13 age, she can go in and have conversations that I will never have. And she shares Jesus and shares things that she's learning. She's at a Christian school, so she's learning Bible verses, she's learning the stories, the passages, and she's sharing with these other people and making friends, playing games, making friends, and showing Jesus.
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Is this part you're both on Family Life staff, but is this kind of like a way that you evangelize in its ministry?
Well, actually, I am with another team and crew. Actually, two teams, but originally my main team, actually, now I'm kind of serving on two teams, is neither of them were really doing this at first, and I wasn't all plugged in. I really felt like, you know, I love field ministry. I love to share my faith. I love to go with other people, learn with them, do it with them.
You've been a missionary in Turkey. Right.
So we were there in the Middle East a number of years, and I love it. I missed it. And so lunchtime afforded me like, hey, right here at the headquarters, I could just put this on and press it in one minute. I'm connected. And so we started doing this at lunch and it was a ministry and it is a ministry.
As it turned out, Jesus Film has actually put together a team where now they're focusing on virtual reality. And so I'm part-time with Jesus Film. Yeah, and so they've got. a team that's focused on AI and VR, and these are two focal points. And they week in and week out.
And so, yeah, so now I can do it. Partly as a role, yeah, and still a ministry. I mean, evenings, weekends, sometimes like I do, but it starts off as lunch and the group that goes together at lunch. And actually, just this last time when Ober was there, we've got a group of us that every week goes in and just we assemble, we come into a room, we talk a little bit how you all go into the same room, go to the same room. We start out at a spot that we have picked out as far as like this is our hub, yeah, and we go in there and we.
Talk a little bit, share a little bit about what's going on in each other's lives, as well as praying for. Our next step for where we're going to go. And then two by two, or sometimes three, sometimes all four of us say, hey, let's go check out that world. And you can scroll and you say, What about that world today? Or, oh, my friend Jim is there.
Let's go visit him, you know, and. Every week we just go we go out. And I will say this too. It's exciting that this team with the Jesus film, one of our friends, Stewart, who has actually been, he actually, the Lord used the VR to help bring him to Christ. And he's returned to continue to do this.
This is his main role. This is his main thing. Like, we're doing it. part-time as a ministry and um but yeah it's growing and the jesus film team has got a Your dedicated team to Reach these people. I mean, it's really, you guys know this, it's what happens on college campuses even today.
With crew with different ministries, where they huddle. They pray. Let's go out. My first ever Christian meeting on the Ball State campus where I was playing quarterback, I just come to Christ. I go to this, it's called primetime.
It was crew, right? I remember. And my discipler was a married student, said, you got to go to this meeting. And again, I'm brand new.
Okay. And I'm like walking to it embarrassed.
So it's like you're going to a portal. Yeah. I mean, everything you just described, I experienced that night. I go. This is pretty funny, though.
I sit in the back row. I didn't know anybody. And Bill, my buddy, wasn't there. And then the guy gets up to give the message. You won't believe this.
He goes, hey, tonight's going to be a little different. Instead of me speaking, we're going to pair up two by two and we're going to go out to the campus and share the gospel. And I say, so find somebody. And I get up and I'm out because I'm like, no, I'm brand new. This is not what, you know.
And I'm literally walking through the lobby of this dorm area and I'm going back to my dorm room. And Bill comes running in. He goes, where are you going? I go, Bill, they're going out to share Christ. I'm that, you know, that's not me.
And he goes, no, no, you go with me. I go now, Bill. I don't know. No, you don't even have to talk. You pray.
I'll talk.
So I go, this is pretty funny. First guy, you know, open door. We go in, I'm sitting on the screen. It's just what you guys are doing virtually. I mean, when you said this, like, wow, this is still able to do it.
Anyway, I'll end with this. This is so funny, because I'm sitting on this bed across from this dude and Bill. And Bill's got the four spiritual laws. This is back in the 70s. He starts talking to this guy.
Well, you know what happened? I watched Bill lead this guy to Jesus. On that first day. And it transformed my life.
So to think of that moment in my life, you're doing that in a new world, in a world nobody even thinks is possible. You could have created an avatar that nobody would have known. Yeah, what are your avatars? Mine's an anime figure with a ball cap and this kind of this coat. Yeah, I used to be a raccoon and I was like, okay, I think I'll switch it down.
And I mean, you can do anything, a dragon, you know, you could make a ball stay quarterback avatar easy enough and just design it. I don't think that would be very attractive, but what do you?
So my name is Jonathan. And so I go in as Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania, which is an animated movie. And the reason I chose is because one, We share the same name. And two, he is someone that when people see him, they're like, oh, oh, you're. And I'm like, Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania.
And that starts a conversation because it's something that is familiar. And so that's why I've chosen that avatar. You know, you can go and be a Teenage Minister Turtle or Spider-Man or Lego Spider-Man or a cat or a dog, like a dragon. There are. Again, if you think it.
Somebody probably made an avatar for it. Really? Yeah. And the worlds. In VR chat, I read somewhere that they say there's 25,000 worlds that people have made.
We each get a home world when you first sign up. You just get your own little space. But anything, I mean, this studio, you can just make it exactly with tables and chairs and light, everything. You can go in and walk around in a VR chat world that. Is just like this.
Did someone create it? Did someone create it? Someone created it. I mean, there's McDonald's, there's 7-Eleven, there's like a movie theater. I mean, people, beaches, and castles, and dungeons, treehouses, and spaceships, and treehouse, like.
You make whatever you want. I mean, is there anything negative? About, you know, stepping into this world and trying to reach people? Like, would you allow your kids to do it? On without any kind of guidance, yes.
Yeah, first off, as a parent, you need to. Know your children. And you need to understand that there are dangers whenever you're in virtual spaces, let alone real life places. And so, for our daughters, like it was always about the communication.
So, whenever they would play a video game or go into VR. My thought is always: what are your plans? What are you going to do? Do you say that to them? Yes.
Yeah. I think it'd be good to instruct parents on how to have those conversations. And now it's at the point where we have. Ask them that question enough that now they're like, I'm going into VR to play XYZ game, or I'm going to play on the Nintendo Switch and I'm going to play. You know, Mario Kart or whatever it might be.
And so that's just, I would say, stage one: is just communicate: what are your plans? Because if we, just as Christians, if we go into spaces where we don't have a plan, then. Usually, the bad things happen or things we don't intend to happen. And so, that would be part one. And then part two is just being wise in what they're doing.
So, like, if they say, I'm going into VR chat, okay, what is VR chat? If you don't know, what is VR chat? And ask them to kind of show you. There are ways that you can actually cast the headset to a T V. or to a phone so that you can see exactly what they're doing.
Everything is so even in the beginning, if you're like, hey, I really want to be a part of this and want to understand what you're doing, can we cast that to the phone or can we cast that to the TV? And then I'll watch. And then, after a while, you know, hopefully that builds trust. in your kid, your student, and what they're doing. And you'll be able to see like, hey, maybe this isn't the best place to go.
The other thing is I would say, like some of our daughters have friends that are also doing this.
So they're going in together.
So if they're not going with me, they're going with a friend. And then it's just our policy that you need to stay together. It's easy to get lost in some of those places in terms of someone coming and maybe badgering you. Like if you are trying to share the love of Jesus and you're sharing the Bible, it's easy to get distracted. You see something shiny.
You see a new portal. Maybe you want to go into that. But it's our policy. stay with your friend or stay with dad when he's in there. I don't necessarily need to be a part of those conversations that they're having with other people, but the cool thing is, is I can step back as an avatar.
and my cone of hearing in the game. Could be right on the cusp of where they're standing. And so I can still hear them, but I'm not like in their space. And so I can build that trust with my student, with my child, and see, like, okay, they're doing what they. Are called to do in this space.
Are there predators in this area that you have to warn your kids about? And how would you? When we talk about some of these VR spaces, a number of platforms, VR chat specifically is pretty dark and it's pretty technically, they have some rules about like hacking and all that, but for as far as what people say, what they do, they're almost anything, they're just things are happening. And so I like what Ober said, you know, really going with somebody else, going with a group and, you know, being there together. But it is very dark in some of these places.
Yeah. And just. And yet you guys are walking into these spaces a lot of times together to be a light. Yeah, for sure.
So you're not necessarily saying to your little kids, yeah, go on in there. Right.
But you're saying we'd like to go and be a light and impact others for the gospel. And I will add too, so I mentioned there's a number of platforms. Roblox is actually one that maybe you've heard. I know a lot of parents have kids or grandkids that are playing Roblox on the iPads and their phones and that.
So Roblox is, I believe, the largest metaverse platform at this time. My friend on the G's Film team, Bruce, was saying I think there was like over 300 billion monthly active users. Roblox is different in that they're really into security, trying to keep it safe because there's a lot of kids there. They're aiming this for kids. And so their rules, and they will boot people out.
They monitor the things you say in that. And so that is a much safer one. Although there still are people predators and trying to go in there. Much different platform. The feel is different.
So, if my kid is really into Roblox, I might say, hey, you're playing it, you're with your friends. Have you thought about how the Lord could use this? How you can be having conversations? Even simple questions, asking questions, listening to people. And so, if people are in Minecraft or Roblox or these spaces already, How can they start?
Working through these spaces for the Lord. One of the things we've talked about with our daughters specifically is like digital citizenship. We are citizens of God and, you know, what we do in the real world and how we interact with our friends, you know, not talking behind their back and making sure that we're hospitable to them, to our neighbors, whomever it might be that comes into our life. Like, we're citizens. And so, in these platforms, we're digital citizens, where just like what we're doing in real life, like, are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of mom and dad or grandma and grandpa?
No.
Okay, good. Let's keep that. And so, just being a light there and sharing Jesus and whatever they do.
So, what's your goal? Like, why do you guys do this? What do you hope? I mean, I think the biggest goal is just to redeem a platform that. right now doesn't seem redeemable.
But also I think the underlying is just meeting Individuals. Like, like you said, there are millions of people in Roblox. There are, I think, at any given time, I looked up just recently, like 60 to 70,000 people in VR chat. And in those spaces, There's got to be at least one person that needs to know Jesus, if not tens of thousands. What a great conversation with Jonathan and Frank about a world most of us don't even know exists.
It's a metaverse, meta-universe, whatever you call it. I mean, it's a place where a lot of people, not just our children, are hanging out. Did you have any idea how many millions of people are in that world? No.
And the fact that we as parents don't often know, we need to know. It's something that will help us. And we're going to help you. Frank and Jonathan put together a metaverse ministry toolkit just for you. And we have it at familylifeetoday.com.
Just click on the link in the show notes, and this will get you started to help navigate this metaverse. And guess what? We're going to talk about it again tomorrow.
So join us back tomorrow. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of God's faithfulness as marriages grow stronger and families flourish in Him. Mm.
