Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Hi. When we say, like, theology matters in this practical We're not saying you actually need to be perfect. The good theology is you show your kids, I need to ask for forgiveness.
To say, I don't know. You're to let the kids see you begging God for things, you wrestling with God for things. That's actually good theology. Theology is not about giving all the right answers because we don't always have them. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.
I'm Dave Wilson. And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.
So, do you know what my favorite seminary class was? Um communication. Yeah, sort of what we do now. I don't know. I should have done better in that class.
I should have paid more attention. I loved that class. You did? My favorite probably was Old Testament. Old Testament service.
With Walter Kaiser. Yeah, he was good. What was yours? Theology. I had JP Moreland, who many people might recognize that name now.
He was a young Profit at the time working on his PhD at USC. You know, we were an hour away in San Bernardino. But He taught theology in a way that expanded my mind. I remember thinking, I do not even know how to think about God until taking that class. Like, this is really critical.
How you view and understand the attributes, who God is.
Okay, let me ask you this. Can we have a guest? No, wait, wait, wait. I want to ask you one more question. Before you went to seminary, would you have considered yourself a theologian?
No. Me neither. No, those are the brainy accents. But I would still say I went to seminar, I'd still say I'm not. But.
We have it. There you go. Nice transition.
Well done. You guys have been doing this for a while? Kelly Kafka is sitting there. That's the voice you're hearing. Who is you are a theologian?
Yes. You teach at a school. I make a living at it. Yeah. If that's what you mean.
And that's what I would have thought a theologian is. It's somebody that spent their life studying and now is teaching others. Right. But we have a little book you wrote. And when I say little, I mean little.
Yeah, it's legitimate. It's about the size of my hand. A little book for new theologians: how and why and how to study theology. And it's been out for a while.
So the question they even asked me, would I consider myself a theologian? You would say what? Yeah. You guys are theologians. And you don't just mean David N, you mean.
No, just you guys. No, no. I mean, I at risk of sounding cheesy, what we'll see as we talk about it is we really are all theologians. The question isn't are you a theologian, it's are you a good one? And that's worth exploring.
The word and the idea sounds very intimidating. But theology is just theos from God, right? Means God. And ology, like, is related to people know the word logos, word. At its very, very basic level, theology is a word about God.
And those could even be unspoken words. That's why we're all theologians. Like when we're going through difficulty, if we're going through infertility. Whether we speak them or not, we're having thoughts about God when we're having aches in this world and struggling, when we're having hopes and delights. There's a lot of theology that's going on.
Part of it is just recognizing we are theologians, so how do we make sure? The God we're responding to and worshiping is the true and living God, and not a figment of our imagination. Kelly, why did you want to write this book? Cause I get to do this for a living. I love what I do.
I teach college students at Covenant College. I love when they walk in and think, I can't believe I have to take a stupid class like this. And then when within weeks, I just watch their eyes light up and they start to see this is life. This is meaning and purpose. And it's fascinating to me.
I was having a conversation with someone recently. at Yale right now, at Harvard right now, Notre Dame. There is a class on happiness at these different institutions, they'll call it different things, and they're exploding. On happiness. On happiness, right?
Or on human flourishing. And as Christians, we're like purpose and meaning is right central to what we're doing. Is there something that you do at the beginning of class? Because you think, you're thinking to yourself as a professor, like they're just going to be thinking, oh, I have to get through this class. Yeah.
What do you do that grabs their attention? One thing I often do on the very first day of class is I bring literally about three feet high worth of a stack of thick theology books. They're like 600 pages each, whatever. Obviously, they've never read them. Put them on a table, have the titles facing them.
And I say, I know you've never read it. You don't know anything. It's like systematics theology or reform dogmatics, all these intimidated. And I say, tell me about these books. And why won't you read them?
And they say all these nice things, like, well, it might be a little complicated. But eventually they'll say, because it's boring, right? That's what they're really. And so I'm like, well, why is that a problem? Because if God is actually boring, there it is.
Now we're, you know, this is the living God. Part of it is like, you will work really hard in your physics class and you're willing to. stretch your brain for that and you think it's important or for history or whatever But to think carefully about God, we're like, oh, that's that's inappropriate. And that shows some problems for us. You don't have to have a high IQ to be a worshiper of God.
But God is also not intimidated by our questions, by our wrestling, by carefully working through things. And part of it's just theology matters because worship does. And we got to make sure we're worshiping the God who is.
Okay, go there. Because you just brought up another word that's connected, obviously, to theology, but we are worshipers. I mean, not only are we all theologians, we're all worshipers, whether you're a Christian or not. I say that and you go, yeah, yeah, you're the prof.
So help us understand, connect those two dots. Yeah, I mean, it affects us all in different kinds of ways. Here's a way into it. I teach a whole semester for upper division students called Christology. It's all in the personal work of Jesus.
And part of what we do at the beginning of the course for a couple of weeks is do Jesus in history. And it ends with me going over Jesus in movies of the last hundred years, right? Which is really good idea. It's really fun because it shows visually what we've been talking about. And that is, if you watch Jesus in movies the last hundred.
hundred years You can clearly see how we're projecting Jesus exactly how we want him.
So he is this very white, pale, stoic figure early on. You have Jesus Christ, superstar, right? All of a sudden, he's this 70s figure.
So you can actually, it's pretty powerful. And it's an example of. You know, students often come in, and maybe their youth minister made Jesus seem like he's just wearing Levi's or whatever, right? It's not all bad, but we all make Jesus in our image, and we do that with God.
So we want to think through ways in which we're being affected culturally, but it also could be very commonly. Maybe you think of God the Father as just angry and full of wrath all the time. The reality of the test. Is prayer something that you're comfortable doing? Because if you're just in the presence of someone who's angry, but is willing to put up with you because, quote unquote, his son loves you, that's an example where it's like, well, Jesus loves me and he's died for me.
And so that convinced the father to love me. Yeah, but the father's still more. Right. He's really.
So the father's ticked, but. He's just like, well, I love my son.
So as long as my son likes you, I'm going to put up with you. Most people wouldn't put it that way, but that is surprisingly common. But that would be their theology. Yes, that is your theology, which is deeply affecting your ability to pray, your ability to love your kids, your spouse, how you think about life. Do you constantly live under guilt and shame?
Like, so what does God think about you? To answer that question, you've got to talk about what this God actually like. Wouldn't that be a great dinner discussion with kids at the table? Like, what do you think God thinks about you? That's a great question.
Especially with teenagers. Maybe they've haven't always made the best decisions and that. What would you have said growing up, Dave?
Well, I mean when you were saying at Kell S again, he's absent. Mm. He doesn't care. And it was somewhat of a projection of my father who walked out of our family when I was a little boy. But I know as a preacher, I'd often make grand statements from From the word of God about God.
And these are attributes of God: He's present, He is holy, He's righteous. I remember a guy came up to me. 35 years ago, and I'm glad he did because he said. Yeah, I hear you say God's there and he sees me. But does he care?
I didn't get to that part of his heart that's revealed in Christ. And it's like every second of that man's life and my life and your life, I'm making decisions based on, okay, he's up there. Does he see me? Does he care? Is he involved?
Is he a loving, tender father? Is he just a mean cosmic killjoy? That's theology. Right? I mean, and what Ann just said: boy, oh boy, how important it is for us as parents.
We're passing down what we believe about God at the dinner table or wherever, right?
So, Kelly, let's say we're at the dinner table, and one of our kids says, I feel like he's absent, I feel like he's disappointed in me. And. As parents, maybe we're feeling the same way.
So, what do you say to people that are struggling with wrong theologies about who God is based on Scripture? For me, one of the just kind of the pastoral approaches I would have is to ask more questions rather than to make statements. I think one of the things we get confused about with theology. And as pastors and theologians, we are. Totally fall into this all the time.
We think, well, as long as you say the thing, then we're good. Right. And it's kind of like dealing with someone who's dealing with gossip. And you say, you know what? I don't know if you know this, but God doesn't actually want you to just dwell on that.
And they're like, oh, that's all I needed. I just needed the inverse. God doesn't want you to slander someone behind the, oh, now that I know that, right?
So you're not saying at the dinner table, well, that's not who God is. This is who God is. Right. Well, it's just one of those examples of we have to realize.
Sometimes you have to make the verses believable to the people you're talking to. What do you mean? It's not just quoting the verse, it's trying to help. Help them imagine.
So, when we, as parents, as imperfectly as we do, Try and love the kids in the midst of their mess. Not acting as if the message has no consequences, but loving them in this radical kind of way. That starts to make it more believable that that's true about God. But I do find that's where the questions come in. Like, I really like how you framed it.
Like, tell me. What do you think God thinks about you right now? Then you can speak into what's actually going on in the heart rather than. presuming we know because sometimes the kid Maybe it's not that God is absent. Maybe it's that God is just Overly concerned.
Like, God is this nitpicky God, or something like that.
So, you really have to ask in order to know what we even need to deal with. But then theologically for me, the big thing Is always going back to Jesus. The way you prove that God actually does care is constantly going back to. The very coming of the eternal Son of God becoming one with us, really in flesh, really entering in and suffering and dying. That is God's great.
Display of his forness of us, you know, for his love for us. Yes, that he is near, he is present, and that now he's poured out his spirit on us. But getting back to Jesus constantly sounds cliche, but that's really key. Would that be your answer to how to build a good theology as opposed to because there's bad theology? Oh, yeah, for sure.
There's right and wrong theology. Is that how we get to building a theology proper, a good, solid, biblical? Correct theology? Yeah, I mean, from a Christian perspective, the fancy word is Trinitarian. But because The God we worship We say, okay, we worship God.
But the God of the Bible is actually the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. And Interestingly enough, that God we worship, who is Father, Son, and Spirit, Biblically, that worship is directed toward Christ.
So the way you know the Father is to look to the Son. And the Spirit's often described as the Spirit of Christ.
So that's not minimizing the Father or the Spirit by looking to the Son. That's actually how and who this God is, how he's revealed himself, who he is. It is good and right to constantly get our gaze on Christ. And if it's not on Christ, then we tend to have, that's a first sign of a problem.
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Visit familylifetoday.com to find a date and a location that works for you and save 50% because your marriage is worth it. You're working with. Kids all the time in college that are experiencing and seeing the injustice and suffering in the world. And I feel like this generation, and all generations, but Gen Zs have really like they're feeling the pain and the angst of the world oftentimes. How theologically are you dealing with that?
I'm guessing that comes up in the classroom. It does, and it's an example of where. It can go to extremes, but The Bible has always cared about injustice, about suffering, about poverty.
So And it does relate to theology.
Sometimes I'll ask students like, Explain to me what it means to know God, but you have to, I'm a new Christian, and it has to be a Bible verse. And they'll say all these good things. They'll say, Well, it's about a relationship. And I'm, and I say, No, no, no, I just want the Bible. Yeah.
And they say all these things. And I'm like, well, there is actually a verse that says, This is what it means to know me, says the Lord. And, like, what? And it's in Jeremiah, and it's about Josiah, and it's, he cared. About The poor.
And he saw that injustice was dealt with. And it's the same kind of thing in James, where James says, well, this is true religion. And we're like, well, what's true religion? To care for the orphan, the widow, in distress, keep yourself unstained from the world.
So wait a minute, what does it mean to know God and we make it all this philosophical thing?
Well, there's something about knowing God that's tied to caring for those who are hurting. It's Isaiah one, where God is upset because Israel thinks they know God. But by neglecting the orphan, the widow, the hurting, the marginalized, They've distorted their understanding of who God is and themselves.
So, all of that is a long way of saying our actions shape our theology. And the Bible's pretty clear when we neglect injustice. And we turn a blind eye to poverty and pain. It hurts our theology because it starts to make us misunderstand God. We start to think that's those people.
It's kind of like that question. Those people are excluded, but we're a bit better. And that's why God, we would never say it, but that's what gets exposed. And I'm always convicted when those verses come into play. And you're also saying to these kids, like all those questions you're asking, God deeply cares about those things.
Exactly. Yeah. Deeply. And maybe he's wanting to use us. Yeah.
And you'll learn about God by being involved in those things. That's part of the point. That seems to be when James is saying, here's true religion. Because faith without works is dead. Because if you just say you have faith and do no works, The question is, what are you having faith in?
Who is this? And I'm a Protestant. I believe in justification by faith alone. But the Bible warns about distorting that faith. And interestingly enough, it's not because you're doing these things to earn God's favor.
But in a response to God's favor. And if we're not involved in some meaningful way, Then it Can be a sign that we've misunderstood his favor.
Okay, I have another question. I love to ask: Don't you like having a professor in the studio? No. We're living in a day where absolutes, moral absolutes, you know, a lot of people would say, Well, that's your truth. Right.
And I'm guessing students, especially, we've done it for generations, but are you getting any pushback?
Well, that's your truth. Theology is your truth, the way you're viewing theology, I should say. But they're saying that's not my truth. I have a whole different view of God, of being moral. That's happening more and more where they're saying there are no moral absolutes, or are no absolutes, and scripture there are no absolutes.
Are there absolutes?
So it's a very tricky question. It's trickier than people want to admit. Yeah. And our kids, don't you think our kids are asking this question?
Well, they are asking, and this is, I would encourage parents, rather than panicking, which is all of our first instinct. Oh, man, I was good at panicking. Is. Actually, ask what they're asking doesn't mean they're right, but you're trying to understand because God is absolute. His word is trustworthy, authoritative, et cetera, binding.
But we have lots of evidence in the history of the church in ways we've taken the Bible in inappropriate ways. And by being naive or ignorant of that fact, it hurts us. And sometimes people are legitimately asking questions. Because the church has confused some kind of cultural thing. with an absolute.
Right. So, for example, kind of the history of missions, missiology is a great field of this where it really exposes this. We have letters of a missionary in Japan, and it was like the middle of the 19th century, and he talks about what God is doing. He said, but So far from godly because the men are still wearing skirts and they're sitting on the floor despite art. It's like so offensive, but you realize.
It's so clear to us, you've confused a cultural thing. With godliness, that the hard part for us is to figure out how are we doing it? What are ways, and yet what are the things that are not.
So we just have to think through that carefully, right? What does that mean? Because. We can't Play fast and loose with scripture. But we've just got to make sure it's scripture that's saying it, not something else.
That's why we need to be theologians. That's right. Good theologians. We are theologians. Yeah, that's good theologians.
Yeah, and I would, you know, almost end here. And you tell me your perspective. We need to be practical theologians. In other words, especially as we're thinking of marriage and family, as we sit at a dinner table or wherever, in the family room, have a conversation with our teenage or college-age kid, and we don't live it. God is this.
And we don't live it. God cares, God provides, and we are freaking out every day, and they're watching us. God cares about the poor, cares for justice, and we. They just don't see it lived out in their home. It's like.
Theology, if it isn't lived, doesn't seem like it's even true. Is that true? Yeah, I mean, you know it's true. But it's interesting to remind myself and others. When we say like theology matters in this practical We're not saying you actually need to be perfect.
The good theology is you show your kids, I need to ask for forgiveness. To say, I don't know. Whether it's about theology or something else, you're to let the kids see you begging God for things, you wrestling with God for things. That's actually good theology. Theology is not about giving all the right answers because we don't always have them.
Yeah. And it's to apologize when we have. Done something to them wrong or maybe We realize as life goes on. I've misrepresented God to you. Here's a way that I presented him that it wasn't faithful.
That helps your children. You don't have to be perfect. You have to be honest with God and them. That's what you have to do. That's being a real theologian.
It was interesting. Our four-year-old grandson woke his dad up the other day and Cody reads his Bible in the morning, and Bryce sees him doing that. And he said the other day, woke up, and Bryce is standing right by his head super early, like 5:30. But Bryce has his Bible in his hand, and he's like, Are we getting up to spend time in the Bible this morning? You know, and Cody's like, Yeah, maybe not this early, but they did.
They got up, and I thought, Man, that's the start of it, too, isn't it? Is when our kids see that. We're in the Bible. We're trusting it. We need it.
We're not perfect. But that's theology of knowing who God is in a healthy way. And it makes me think so I you know, I would often at bedtime take the kids upstairs, read them a Bible story, pray for them. And then I'm like, yeah, I get to go watch ESPN. Like, the day is finally done.
But as you know, when they're little, that's often when they want to talk because they don't want to go to bed, which is great and terrible, right? And I'll never forget one night. My son and daughter, for a long time, when they were young, they were in the same room, and I was leaving, and I hear my son. Hey, Papa, I have a question. And I'm like, not tonight.
I was already turning to the door and I was leaving, but I could tell something in his voice, and I turned around and he said, I don't know if I love God. And I thought, okay, here we go. You know, I'm coming back for Giddy SPN. And he said, I know I love you and mama, but I don't even know what it would mean to love God. And I don't know what it means for God to love me.
Wow. And so all of a sudden I'm like. That's such an amazing theological question. And we all think we know what the answer is, but you don't know what the answer is until you have to work and explain it to a little kid, right? And there is something very beautiful about that.
Where he could say that and not have panic and start to talk about what God's love looks like and how he can experience it. We're all like, what'd you say?
Well, it was interesting. I had to think, and I said, you know. When you're playing with Ruby, our dog, or you and I are wrestling on the couch and we're giggling, or you're doing this with mama. The love you're experiencing is an extension of God's love. That's not something different.
That is a taste of God's love. And it's even bigger and greater than that. That cold orange you're eating on the hot summer day, that is a taste of God's love. Because in all of that, then all of a sudden it's training him. To see God present throughout the world and to lift his gaze and start to see God's love.
What a great day with Kelly Kapik. And again, his book is called A Little Book for New Theologians: Why and How to Study Theology. We all need that. It's good.
So you can just get that book by going to the show notes, clicking the link at familylifetoday.com. We meet a ton of couples who say family life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a family life partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here. And we'd love for you to join us.
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