Hey, why don't you tell everybody one of your favorite Bible verses?
Okay, I will because it's Psalm 119, 105. And that verse says, Your word is a lamp for my feet and a light on my path. I mean, what an awesome. Bible verse that reminds us how scripture lights the way in marriage and parenting and basically everything else. And we're super grateful to the Christian Standard Bible for supporting this podcast.
Yes, and just for their work in helping people read God's Word clearly and faithfully. To learn more, go to csbible.com. Hi. The secret to me in a long marriage for us is not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers. It's like the longest marriages you have, they've forgiven more than a short marriage for sure, right?
Everybody needs space for grace. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is Family Life Today.
I was thinking about this last night. I think I know. You are the most grace-giving person I've ever met. Come on, Brian. What?
You are so gracious to me and to others, maybe not other drivers, but I mean, they are the same in that regard. That's hilarious. But no, I was thinking about it as we're going to talk about this, the fundamentals of marriage. when I was reading it, I'm like, I am married to the most Loving, tender. What?
And again, it wasn't always that way. I was going to say, that's miraculous because I think I was the opposite when we first got married. Yeah, we're not going there. We're talking about it. It's super judgmental, but thank you.
That means a ton. Yeah, I mean, I watch you with strangers and I watch you with our grandkids. It's just. I'm inspired. That's amazing.
Yeah, and you're Aaron Howard and Danielle Taylor, who are in the studio. And I was reading your workbook even last night, The Fundamentals of Marriage. Yes. And you talk about a grace-filled marriage and the four. We call it the forgiveness factors.
Yeah, and that hit me yesterday when I was reading it and I thought. I just wanted to start today saying that. This is the best program ever. That's amazing. Yeah, well, Howard and Daniel, welcome back.
You are the Marriage on Deck. Is it marriageondeck.com? Yeah. Is that where people can find you? Yeah.
And so we've talked a little bit about your story. But even that, as you hear about the grace and the four factors, I mean, you don't have to get right into those, but how important would you say that is to a marriage? Because even as I. Listened to you guys yesterday. I thought you guys are really graceful people as well.
Much so. Oh, thank you. It's a representation of the gospel as you give grace to each other. I've watched it yesterday. It's really beautiful.
Thank you, Jesus. You know, I think grace, we say we talk to older marriage. We call them skyscraper couples, marriages that are 50 and 40 and even 30 years. This is us. We're skyscraper couples.
You guys are the skyscraper couple, right? You just, we look at you guys and you're 40 stories tall.
So when we talk to these couples, everybody always says, well, what's the secret? What's the secret? And one, I remember one lady, she stood out to me because she said, well, you know, the secret to me in a long marriage for us is it's not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers. The longest marriages you have, they've forgiven more than a short marriage for sure, right? Everybody needs space for grace.
And what we love about grace is it's an intentional thing. It's like a gift that we give.
Sometimes when we Ask for forgiveness and we say we're sorry. It's like pain. It's, it has a negative connotation. It's painful to have to forgive somebody that's harmed you.
So when Danielle and I begin in our marriage, Danielle will say, well, I look at you how Christ looks at you now, right? I needed my fair share of grace. But I see you through the eyes of how Christ sees you. And I began to return that to her. And when we thought about how Christ is, we are messed up.
Not just us, Adam, the children of Israel, everybody throughout the Bible really needed a great measure of grace. And so it's almost appalling that I not be able to return. I'm so thankful that, you know, all of us are so grateful with God. Christ paid it all on Calvary. He did it all on Easter Sunday.
We're talking about that off air. But then when we get in the car with our spouse and they do something wrong, we're not willing to offer them that same Christ-like sacrifice where he takes pleasure in gracing us and covering our sins. And, you know, it says love, it covers. A multitude of sins, these types of things we begin to relish in because it makes us feel more Christ-centered, more attached to the Savior that we serve, the reason why we call ourselves Christian. Those things come in grace.
And finally, there's a scripture that says everybody. Could love somebody that's good to them. Yes. Everybody could do that. What effort does that take?
But what Christ challenges us to do is love those who despitefully use us, those who do wrong. And I could. apply that to a coworker it's very difficult to say that my wife Is the one that despitefully used me in the season, or my husband is the one that wronged me. And Christ has challenged us to love them through that season as well because we all know marriage has peaks and valleys. I don't care who you are.
That's right.
Now, did you guys ever have, like we were joking earlier, there were seasons in our marriage where we weren't very grace-giving. Oh, I was awful for sure. Have you had that? Absolutely. Absolutely.
When we first got married, our communication was so, so, so, so bad. We were tearing each other apart. We were using our words as a weapon, very short, judgmental, unrealistic expectations. Yes, all of those things. Absolutely.
As different things have come along, we've had. Like a failed business where it's kind of like you could easily play the blame game. You could easily play the blame game. We lost our child. You could easily play the blame game there.
A lot of people have fallen apart because of things like that. That, yes, we've needed grace so much more, you know. Probably more than ever during those times. Yeah, talk to us about walking through that valley with your child. Oh, it was such a sad situation.
It was so sad when I read that. When Howard and I got together, we were virgins for four years. We were college graduates, Christian. We just felt like we're doing this thing the right way. And God's going to bless us.
And God's going to bless us. We deliberately held off for eight or nine years so that we can save up the money and just really bring this child in right.
So we felt like, oh, our measures of success and the works of what we're doing is going to make us exempt from any type of bad news. For sure. Fast forward, I go into labor early. The baby's delivered. He lives for four days.
And we're like. Yeah, this is more supposed to happen, 24 weeks. Yeah, right. Yeah, Daniel had an incompetent cervix, didn't know it. And so her cervix just stand out.
And unfortunately, we found ourselves in a turbulent situation in the hospital one day with you know this baby that we had planned for, saved for, prayed for, had vision for, was coming. And we tried to pray it away and it wasn't going away. That baby was coming and he came and we tried to pray his life into longevity. Right. That wasn't going to be the outcome.
But that baby, we call him our angel baby Harper, passed away. And Really threw us into a spiritual spiral. Yes. What that looked like. We felt like we started going to prayer pretty immediately after our chapel.
Our church had a chapel that was open for prayer, but we just felt like God had abandoned us, had disappointed us, let us down. It's like, how could you do that to people that are doing it the right way? Yeah, what kind of God would do that? That's what I thought at the time, right? I'm like, Lord, I'm just laying it all out because you need to know.
I mean, I know you know my thoughts and my heart, but you need to know. I need to say out loud. Yeah, Howard felt like he couldn't hear from God, he couldn't talk to God. Yeah, for me, so I was working at that time. Danielle was off of work, and so I, it threw me into a spiral.
I, I, I would say for the first time in my life, I didn't know what to say to God, and I didn't. Particularly, I feel like I was hearing from him anymore. I just was shy. It was a very silent, quiet season. In that time.
And I just remember just feeling like, you know, God, where are you? What's the answers? Because I couldn't explain it. You know, I having such vision as a boy I share with you guys on the last episode that I Really was paramount to me to be a great father and be all that I didn't have. And so that caused me to do works, as Danielle spoke to, to think I was going to get an outcome.
And that's, that was a very immature perspective. But God met us. God, you know, one of the things we did, and I thank God for this, because we had a strong spiritual foundation, and we mentioned this, that strong spiritual foundation allowed Danielle and I to trust each other with prayer, trust each other with our sorrow. We didn't turn away from each other because we had prayed during our courtship and dating period. We had prayed through our eight years prior to having that boy.
So when we didn't know what to do, we almost by muscle memory leaned on each other in prayer.
So when she was complaining, I would, well, babe, the scripture, when I'm complaining, like, what is going on? She's tapping into her scripture bank. And when we're just sorrowful and crying and sitting there in silence, we were living on this foundation of but God, but didn't know it. And so all of a sudden, one day it just. Clearly he spoke to Dayelle and he spoke to me.
In different ways, and I don't want to say explained himself, but he was gracious enough to tell us. Why we were going to go through that season. And for me, it was from, he led me to Revelation chapter 12, where it talks about how the dragon was going to. Come and attack Christ, and God took the child. But in that scripture, we get Revelation 12, 12, chapter 12, verse 11, where it talks about they overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony.
By knowing that God sacrificed his son for us. He basically said, How I know exactly what you're going through. What you're going through. I've been touched in the same way that you've been touched. And Harper ultimately is my child.
Out of sovereignty, I protected you, I protect Dan for things you will not know. But ultimately, this testimony will be used to encourage. Others and I trusted you guys. There's another scripture in Job he says, Though he slay me, yet will I trust him. Though you're slayed, does not mean I don't have a plan.
And so I'm sovereign, trust me. And I could reckon with that lady. God taking her baby, and the dragon was there to attack that baby. And that scripture about we overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of testimony immediately healed my heart. It was just so instantaneous because I felt like God could relate.
to what we were going through and he had a plan for it and he spoke to Danielle. What'd that look like for you, Danielle?
Well, when I was crying out to God, saying, you know, you don't know how I feel, what type of God would do this? You say that you love me. How dare you? And God said, So you're expressing everything, you're laying it out. Yes.
Leading up to this, I was one of those people that I felt like I couldn't sense God speaking. That's never happened. Is it audible? Is this? Is it that?
I would tell him. But when I was out praying at the chapel, God said what Howard said: No, I do know how you feel. I Mm. Lost my only son for you. Gave him.
Gave him, yeah, for you, for your sake.
So I know how you feel, and said some other things and reminded me about how busy I was and God trying to get my attention for things. But I was, like you said. Making an idol out of my career, making an idol out of what I wanted to do at the time. And so that day I felt like was the first day I actually heard God speak to me like in my spirit. But then I kept going to chapel and he's, we decided after that, we're not having any kids.
We tried to work out. Yeah, we're in pity party mode.
Some of our families were impacted heavily.
So we're like, this is too much for everybody. It's too much for us for sure. It's too much for everybody else. We've we tried. It didn't work out.
Let's just move on with our wonderful lives without any kids. And so at chapel, probably maybe two weeks after all of this, God led me to Genesis and he said, at this time next year, you have a son. Yeah. I read it like. Yeah.
Yeah. No way.
So that was um Maybe October, and we had a Sunday next year, October 21st. October 1st. Weston, Weston Harper, too. Yes. But God did teach me about his sovereignty.
He reminded me about, you know, your works are like filthy rags. Just because you look good on paper does not determine like my hand. You know, I'm God.
So I was like, oh, okay, got it. You know, in the fast pace of life, sometimes the best gift you can give your marriage is time. Time to slow down, reflect, and reconnect. Family Life's weekend to remember gives you just that. dedicated time away.
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So just head to familylifetoday.com and register today. I'm always amazed as you're talking, like that foundation. We've talked about that a lot in the last two days of being in God's word, of praying together, of knowing who he is and going back to the foundation. Had you not had that, if you guys didn't go to God, if you didn't pour out your heart, What would you be like right now? I, you know, I just, I don't know if we would even be together, to be candidly honest.
You know, grief is something. You know, grief is. Is jarring in many ways. And what we found through coaching couples through grief, God's used our testimony to allow us to coach couples through grief. Is when you go through grief, you people want answers, and a lot of the answers aren't explained.
It's like, why does you know, why do bad things happen to good people? Is what you often find through grief and mourning. What we find is couples turn away from each other for those answers. Yeah. And then couples do not depend.
This is probably, I think, the biggest thing with spiritual foundation. They don't know each other spiritually enough to trust each other with their vulnerabilities. And so if Danielle and I had never prayed with each other, read scripture to understand that she studies her word and I study my word. You don't have the rapport to pull each other through those type of moments spiritually. And so sometimes we found that couples lean on the pastor and resent their husband because he.
Don't empathize with the pain the way the pastor was able to because they don't have any spiritual connection. My spiritual connection has always been with my undershepherd, the pastor. Vice versa, they lean on co-workers.
Well, she really gets my pain, and she's there as a listening voice. And my wife is just closed down and shut off.
So they begin to seek this spiritual connection in external. Influences that just brings a big crack in the foundation that turns into a valley in the foundation. They don't know how to find their way back.
So, prior to life happening, because life's going to happen. To everybody. It's going to happen if you live long enough. Prior to that, it is critical. That you begin to lay a solid foundation.
It's building your house on rock.
So that when it gets windy and when the storms blow and when the rain hits, for that was our storm, and we've had plenty of them. You know how to put your raincoat on together. You know how to dig into the trenches. You know how to cover each other, even though the winds blow. Why?
Because you have a foundation that's built on rock. And if we had not had that, we would have been on sinking sand for sure.
So from when we started dating at 18 and 19 and started praying, that saved us for 12 years later when we didn't foresee we would lose our son. And so it's critical. It is not passive to think that you cannot pray, read the word, and build a spiritual, intimate connection. It's critical. What about the couple who's never done that?
And they may they've been married maybe twenty or thirty years, but they've never had that foundation. How do you coach couples? Where do they start? Especially if one is like, Hey, let's do this and the other's like, Wait, what? I think you should start by having that conversation about what levels of comfort you both have with praying because sometimes people don't want to, they're not comfortable praying out loud.
They're not comfortable talking about what their true prayer requests of their heart are.
So I think talking about what they're comfortable with and then just starting with no pressure. It's just light and easy. It doesn't have to be significant. You don't need to use big words. It doesn't have to be long and perfect.
You just, you know, take time, take turns, maybe pray for me. I'll pray for you. Is there anything in your mind? Anything bothering you? Do you mind if I pray?
You know, getting that agreement with each other, like, hey, does this work for you? And even if the other person says, I don't want to be a part of it, that doesn't mean, you know, the initial spouse can't pray for them. You can still pray in your quiet time alone. And I think over time that will encourage them. I think God will work on their heart and soften their heart to be part of it.
And there's safety in the multitude of counselors.
So, you know, get a mentorship couple. Whoever somebody that you admire, one of the skyscraper couples that we talk about, bring resources into your life that help. The reason why our book is a workbook is because there's a lot of practical application things in that book to help you begin to introduce and take baby steps towards building on your communication, building on whether it's just life application studies, discussion questions, they help you because building your spirit, building on any type of relationship, even if it's physical, starts with baby steps. You know, it may just be, let's say, grace. We don't ever say grace.
And that may grow into.
Well, let's just read a chapter of the Bible together. Let's read a scripture and talk about that scripture. What do you think about that scripture? I don't know what in the world they're talking about, but that scripture. What do you think?
And having these little conversations, they just build connection. You know, it's like if you want to introduce your wife to sports, or your wife wants to introduce you to sewing, or whatever it is. At first, it's drawing like sports. I don't ever watch sports, but it may just take one article or one story. Or one project to make the person start to empathize with, well, I can see why you like that.
And so just to Daniel said, it's really no pressure, but it really should be baby steps. Don't try to swallow the whole Bible and feel like you have to be a pastor or go to seminary. Pick a scripture. You know, and say, what does John 3:16 mean even mean to you? We both go to church, but what do you think about that scripture?
Do you even get it? Bray. I like that. Tell us about the honesty of God. Isn't that something you guys do on a daily basis?
I know you got two boys. Oh, man. You got a busy life. Yeah, uh, most couples, even in the church, don't do this. They may go to church together actually, the statistics say they go to church together maybe once a month.
Wow, 1.3 times a month now is sort of normal for the average Christian couple in America. You guys are. Talking about something totally different than most couples do.
So the baby step would look like what? Because I know you guys, what? You pray every day? You read the scripture every day? Where would you tell a couple, what's a baby step?
Just maybe start praying? Yeah, start praying. Or like Howard said, just take one scripture. You know, sign up for the Bible app. Yes.
Yeah. It's easy. It's easy. They're applicable, like daily reading plans that people could hop on. That's not super, you know.
Yeah, the Bible app. We're driving here today and Ann got on me because I'm 10 days behind her in the Bible app. You can see it. What great accountability. She's like, you should be up with me.
And I'm like, you're so fast. I'm 10 days behind. And I wanted to talk about Ruth. I read about Ruth and Boaz today and she's like, that was 10 days ago. I don't want to talk about it.
That was on the way in the studio. Yes. But I mean, that very conversation shows, you know, we're in the word. Absolutely. I mean, we're joking.
We we're gonna talk about it tonight, but That Foundation, you call it the secret stability. Secret stability. You have to be intentional about it. Yeah. So couples are very intentional.
I think about many sometimes you find that in marriage, you may need to be intentional about date night. We got jobs, we got careers, we have kids.
So every other Friday, we're going on a date, right? You may have to be intentional about finances. Hey, listen, we were trying to save X over X amount of time. We're really going to have to not go to the movies as much, right? Or whatever it is.
There's intention there. And spiritual intimacy is the same. It comes from intention. And that intention may be that we're going to read the book of Ruth. That's just Proverbs.
We always say is a great one for any couple to say. If you're listening, read the book of Proverbs. There's 31 chapters. There's typically 31 days in a month. And just go through one chapter.
It's so much conventional wisdom in there. You'll leave with something to talk about. And you'll also get every single day. And I would say spiritually, it's a funner read.
So if you're starting out. Foundation. You don't want to start out with the book of Revelations, right? You may not want to start out with Deuteronomy, but. proverb start and i would challenge couples to take one proverb and just read it and don't feel like you got to even discuss it or exegete it or any of that stuff just talk about it it's a topic talk about it on a friday night talk about it on a monday morning on your way to work you don't have to talk about it every other every every day per se sometimes that's intense for people you eat an elephant one bite at a time take your spiritual intimacy and as you get excited about it all of a sudden you'll start to realize that your husband and wife, you have a great perspective.
I didn't think about on the faith. And then you talk to your mentors about it and they may add some perspective on the faith or you hear that message on your Sunday that you go to once a month. And the pastor's talking about the same thing we're reading. It excites you about your spiritual intimate growth. But it starts out as an infant.
It's going to fall. You're going to crawl. It's going to spit up sometimes like anything in life.
So don't place teenager or adult expectations on an infant growth process for spiritual intimacy. And watch it blossom. And I would add to pray, just be honest with God. You could say, God, we don't even know what we're doing. That's right.
We want to know you, and we're going to do our best to get to know you. And he'll meet you there. And help us. And if He meets us, it's just that relationship. Absolutely.
What a great day we just had with Howard and Daniel Taylor. And their book, again, is called The Fundamentals of Marriage: Eight Essential Practices of Successful Couples. And you can get the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com to get their book. Hey, and we also wanted to let you know about a free guide that we want to give you. It's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from really real life couples who've been where you are.
And you can grab your copy today at familylife.com/slash marriage help. Again, go to familylife.com slash marriage help for your free guide full of marriage tips. Family Life Today is a donor-supported ministry, a family life, a crew ministry. helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
