We just try to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age. You want to talk about the bus? One of our sons first day of eighth grade came home and he was like, um, do girls really like it when guys like text pictures of their private parts to him? And we're like What? This is eighth grade.
Eighth grade. But not freaking out for your kids is huge.
So we have Dave and Ashley Wilson in the studio. I want to have like banners. Did you guys catch what I said? I did. I did.
There's so many people that call us Willis. Wait, what did you say? Dave and Ashley Wilson. Do you ever get called Wilson? No, I would change my name and be legally adopted by you two.
Oh, my goodness. And the sad thing is, we're old enough to probably do that. No, not quite. I was going to say, not quite.
Now we have David Ashley Willis. He'd be my adopted big brother.
Okay. There you go. There you go. With no hair. Yes, I take your hair and your name.
But anyway, I don't know if that's the way we want to start, but we're starting that way. Welcome to the. I mean, we love you guys so much that it's just a joy to have you here. We watch you, we watch your videos and follow your life. And it's fun when you get to come to Orlando and get to sit here.
We love hanging out with you guys. Oh, we do. It's a real treat. And it's fun because we're both, we're all passionate about Jesus. But marriage is something that, man, it beats in our blood.
And we want people to have better marriages, better families.
So we have a lot in common that way.
So what are we doing today? We're going to talk about different things. First of all, Dave, you wrote a book. And of course, you remember this. This was during COVID, right?
Yeah, it came out during COVID. Wrote it, yeah, probably like the year leading up to COVID. Here it is. If you're watching on YouTube, still, still an important message. Yeah, it is.
Yes.
So, my first question is: this. Ashley, you tell us. How does Dave respect you? Oh my goodness. I mean, so many ways.
I think he always tries to give me his best attention and listens well to me. I feel like he shows our boys how to respect me by how he treats me every day and just showing me respect in his time, in his words, in his eyes. I think that he celebrates me well. And it just trickles down to our boys. And so I feel like our boys wouldn't have as much respect for me.
As they do, if you didn't teach them that, just through your example, because you do such a great job of that.
Well, she's very easy to respect, first off. I mean, so I have it easy in that department because I married to the best person. But It's important. I don't know, like for you dads who are listening, it's our kids are watching you. You know, our example is fathers.
I had somebody tell me when I was a young father, you're teaching your sons how to respect women, and you're teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday by your example, by the way you're treating your spouse. And so that really stuck with me. And I thought, man, and we never had daughters, but with my sons, I want to model that. I want them to. you know, to to catch that.
If they don't catch much else from me, I want them to at least at least catch that. But they have such an amazing mom, you know, she is very easy to respect. Dave, did that always come naturally? Um I I think that it came naturally, and that I had a great mom myself. She's her name is Karen.
Yeah, I still do. I say not past tense. I still have a great mom. Mom, if you're listening, you're amazing. She and a great dad.
They're the best. I will say something that kind of temporarily sabotaged. My thinking is when I was a teenager into young adulthood, I got into pornography, which is part of our testimony, my testimony that we've, you know, we've talked a lot about. And, That That whole mindset shift of just having those toxic, objectifying images in my brain really sabotaged me for a time. And how I saw myself, and how I saw women, and how I saw sex.
What did that look like? Like, how did it affect how you saw yourself? It's. No sin ever stays in the little compartment you build for it, right?
So if you think, well, this is just an escape or this is just entertainment. It's not hurting anybody. It's not hurting anybody. All the lies that we believe, or that I believed at least, and I think many others have believed around porn, but it's insidious. You know, it's like a cancerous tumor that metastasizes.
It breaks open and it starts affecting all these other things. And so, in terms of how I saw myself, like I started having less respect for myself. Because I was wrapped up in this thing that I knew to be wrong. I wasn't taking steps to get help from it. Was it a secret?
It was a secret for a long time. And you were married?
Well, it started when I was unmarried, but I fell back into it. In our newlywed years. And then I dealt with the shame of that. I knew Jesus said to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart.
Now I'm like, oh my goodness, I'm being unfaithful. And I hated myself for it. There was a lot of self-loathing, but. There's a verse in the Proverbs that says, like a. Like a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool will repeat his foolishness.
I was that dog. I would return to the gross thing. And knowing it's gross, but it's like I just couldn't break out of that cycle.
Well, that probably created shame. It did. It created shame. And as much as I would say, I respected Ashley even through that. I don't know that at that point in my life, I was fully respecting anybody because.
Just my whole mindset. Um had been devalued. And so in As a result, I was devaluing Myself, devaluing others. And it was just a negative place to be. And so I think part of getting to a place of respect.
And just living the way God wants us to live is renewing our minds from just the junk that's there. And porn isn't the only form of junk. I think we can take on junk that impacts our relationships from our own, the homes we grew up in, and maybe toxic behaviors we saw there, or words that were spoken to us when we were kids that have shaped our thinking about ourselves in unhealthy ways or past relationships we've had, or just flawed messages we see from pop culture. I mean, there's a billion different ways to get the wrong message, but when we go back to God's word and allow his word to really renew our mind and to bring hope and healing and renewal and grace, then we can start seeing ourselves the way he sees us and we can start seeing other people through his eyes. And the more we do that, the more we're going to respect each other because.
God has so much respect for people. He created us in his image. for his glory And so when you're objectifying another person or disrespecting another person, You're really disrespecting God who created them in his image. And so Understanding that, I think just that principle. Can help all of us respect ourselves, respect the opposite sex, and see humanity the way God wants us to.
I mean, talk, talk us through the struggle of porn in your marriage because I know there's couples listening right now, yeah.
Some of them just went, uh oh. I have a secret. They're talking about it. I don't even know if I'm going to tell her or tell him. And maybe the wife is suspecting.
Yeah, so how did you guys navigate? I mean, number one, you're talking about it. Yeah. You know, we're from a generation where you couldn't even mention that. And now we have marriage authors, leaders saying this was a struggle that a lot of people just said.
I remember the first time I mentioned it at my church in the 90s. I didn't tell my co-founder I was going to share this with the church that I had a struggle. And I remember as I said that, I thought. And it was past tense. Yeah, it was past tense, but I was like trying to say, this has been something I had to walk through.
I remember having this thought I might get fired today. Yeah, because a leader shouldn't have the struggle. And I'm not only saying I have it. Or had it? I'm going to talk about it publicly.
And as I walked off the stage, Steve looked at me and said, you just changed our church. And I'm like, uh-oh. Am I fired? And he's like, no, this is now going to be a church where people can be honest and real.
So you've gone the same route. You said we're going to talk about that. We have to be honest and real. And God blesses that. I mean, He blessed your church.
Your church saw explosive growth after it became a place where people felt like they could be safe, but it was a hard thing in our marriage. Horrible. Because I wanted to keep it. Like my private struggle, I'm going to win this thing and I'm going to battle it. And she's not going to need to know because I'm going to win.
And then I'd fall. And then I and so it couldn't be a secret anymore.
So, how did it go for you guys? Oh man.
Well, you know, Dave always likes to say that he wished that he had just come out with it, like, cause he dealt with this for so long in the early years of our marriage. And I knew, I think as spouses, we often know something's off, but we don't always know what it is. And I remember for a while thinking something's off here because one of the things that attracted me to Dave the most the first time I met him was he had what I refer to as honest eyes. And I just said, when I look at you, I feel like you're totally looking back at me and you're not hiding anything. And I just found that.
I mean, I clearly was attracted to you physically, but my heart was attracted to you with the honesty. Right. I felt security and safety. I mean, when she said that, Dave, did you feel like they're not honest? 'Cause I have this struggle?
Well, I think at the time we were together, like first getting together, I wasn't looking for porn. Like it had been a past struggle, but I would have these kind of little stints of sobriety with it. And I thought, okay, well, I'm free from that. That's part of my past. And I, I don't need to tell her, which was my first mistake, not telling her it had even been part of my past struggle.
But in those. You know, early years of our dating, if I'm remembering right, I think I was free from it.
So there was an honesty, you know. I mean, I was being honest. But then when I fell back into it, which even took me by surprise, yeah, I was hiding in shame. And Ashley, who's very perceptive, knew.
Something was off, and we were living in that tension. And I would even say sometimes, Are you okay? You know, like, what's and he's like, Yeah, I'm fine. Work is crazy. You know what I'm saying?
Our conversation. I can feel it. You feel it.
Something else. I remember saying the same thing: like, is something up? Like, I just feel like a separation from us. Yes, a distance. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And he'd be, and he would be so concerned. And I would see it now that I've been married to him almost 25 years. I know that I think I could read him like a book.
Right. But I, I just, you know, we were still getting to know each other and all of our. You know, cues that we give, and I knew there was something I just porn was nowhere on my radar. And Dave always says, till this day, he's like, One of my biggest regrets is not telling you that I had struggled with this before we got married, that this was part of my past. Because then it would have been on your radar.
Yes.
And I could have been like, Have you looked at porn? Just be honest with me. And then we could have dealt with it, right? But he was, he had built up so much shame, right? He had allowed shame to really creep in because he not only had not told me about the past struggle, he now was back in that struggle.
And every time he said he just did not have the courage to tell me, and he wished that he had. I didn't want to disappoint you. I didn't want to be seen as. A failure or weak or any of these things.
So, whatever lies I was believing, it kept it in the dark until she just found it, you know, on this was and I wasn't looking for it. This was before smartphones, even like this was old school. Like on an old, clunky desktop computer, she found, you know, these terrible places where I'd been looking. And so then all at once it's brought out into the open in a really drastic way and and she she called and said Is there something you need to tell me? And and I immediately I knew, and I, I mean, I, I was heartbroken and relieved at the same time.
And I said, You, you found it, you know, and I'm so sorry. And, and that put us, that put us on the path to healing. But even the path to healing was, was messy. I mean, I, it was so deeply ingrained in my mind. I know there was, there was at least one relapse that I had, which just brought the same shame cycle all over again.
And, um, And it was messy. Rebuilding trust is. Takes time. You know, I've heard it said trust is built in drops and lost in buckets. And I dumped out a bucket load of trust all at once.
She was so full of grace, though, even in her woundedness, to walk with me and allow me to rebuild that trust over time. And for us to put. safeguards in place. To just make sure, you know, with through filtering software and accountability and all the things that came with it, that. That we would have a household of honesty and transparency.
And as our boys, you know, started coming along. I think having worked through that early in our marriage, it kind of gave us a foundation for knowing we want to raise them in a way where we're honest about these things. They're in a world where they're going to be bombarded with all the wrong kinds of images. And We don't want. Any of that to take root in them or shame to take root in them when they do stumble.
Um, but we're going to start having conversations. Yeah, how'd that look like with your boys? I mean, did you share your struggle as a you know, as a dad with your sons when they got to a certain age? I mean, in age-specific ways, we've tried to be. Completely honest.
And with just by nature what we do, like we We talk so openly about this stuff. You don't have a choice. I don't have a choice, right? I mean, your ministry used to be called Naked Marriage. Right, yeah.
Exactly. And everybody thought that. Yeah, you were talking about this on stage an hour ago. You can't pretend like this didn't happen.
So that keeps me honest, what we do kind of keeps me honest. What is age-appropriate, you guys, to have those conversations of your own past? What do you think? Gosh, I think it depends. I think it depends in some ways on the child.
I don't know if it's like, yeah, you hit this age, you know, tell them everything on their 12th birthday. I don't think it's like that. I think it's. I think you have to have discretion about Like the level of detail. I think you can give them principles of.
You know, I made mistakes in this area. And then, as they get older and maybe their temptations get more specific, then you can get more specific and kind of, um, What your past struggles were, what happened as a result of the right choices and the wrong choices you made. And we tried to be honest about both, about like, you know, and here's a time when I. I overcame temptation and it was a victory story. But They learn even more from the times you say, man, I blew it.
In this area. And this is what that looked like. And this is what I felt. And this is the shame I was carrying and Um But we just try to make it not weird to talk about Real things from an early age. We would talk.
about their anatomy in You know, like, oh, God made you a boy. You know, you, that's great. We've used, we would use specific words for their anatomy and saying, and that's that's great. You're going to be a man someday and be able to be a dad. And it's not your anatomy is never dirty.
There's never any of that. It's private, sure. And you, you know, people aren't allowed to touch you there, sure. And you tell us if there's anybody that ever tries to violate that. But.
Not creating atmospheres where they would feel like they had to live in secrecy or shame as they're as they started having. You know? These feelings about sex and puberty and all that.
So I think that's how it started. I mean, by the way, I just put in a little call to action right now. You guys have just done for Family Life. A how to talk to your kids about sex video series. Yeah.
I'm so excited about this resource. I think the team at Family Life. Did a stellar job. We got to partner with an amazing team to put together this resource.
So we're the ones teaching on it, but it was a team effort putting together this curriculum. And I think it's some of the most helpful, practical resources. resources I've seen anywhere. Again, because the team put so much into it. To help parents guide parents in age-specific ways to have these conversations with boys and girls, it's not just for sons.
Oh, it is. Yeah, that's good. And by the way, just go to familylife.com/slash sextalk. And you get Dave and Ashley talking about probably some of the stuff you just said. Yes, do you even get into porn?
Absolutely. Yeah. We talk about all of it. And it's called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.
So how and when do you talk to your kids about sex? What we've learned with Raising 4 is that you start early. It's not one talk. It's a series of conversations in age-appropriate ways that start early by celebrating their gender, by being specific about their anatomy, talking about appropriate and inappropriate touch. As they get into early pre-adolescence, it's talking about puberty and the mechanics of sex.
Exactly, and boundaries as they enter into dating. And then you just keep talking about it. And as you lay this foundation of being an open place to talk about these things, you're building trust and they're going to come back to you with questions. And we try to answer those questions as best we can by being honest, even about our own experiences. And I'm telling you, that makes them lean in and that makes them want to come to you again and again.
Family Lives. How to talk to your kids about sex. I think it gets intimidating for us as parents, especially like with your question: how did you or did you even approach the fact that porn is part of his past, you know, with our kids? And I think it's really important to know that there's no perfect parents out there with a perfect past, right? And so we have to, you know, come at this knowing that we're not perfect.
Our kids already know that, my goodness, probably more than anybody. But I think even as we talk about sex, to be real with them, to be authentic with them at an age-appropriate level, it gives them that safe place to come back with questions because it's not just one sex talk. It's a multitude of talks, right? Over the course of time. And like Dave said, it gets more detailed as they get a bit older and have those questions.
But I feel like, you know, we knew back then when we had little kids. That we would need to talk to them about this part of our marriage. And when the time came, we really talked about it as a couple: like, what do we want to share? And what can we teach them from this? And we've been able to do that with each of our kids.
Put those safeguards in place as well that we still have till this day to just not have porn at all be part of our lives. And I wanna say this specifically as it comes to, You know, with Dave having this past porn struggle. You know, how did he try to course correct and then respect me as a woman? One of the greatest things he did was really pay attention to where his eyes would go. And I think this is something, like, even in the counseling space, this is something I often hear from wives, not just with husbands with a porn struggle, but just husbands who have trouble with where their eyes go.
It is so crushing to a wife when they feel like they have to monitor their husband's eyes and they can't trust that he's not going to look twice. Because here's the deal: linger on an Instagram picture a little too long that's maybe a little provocative or.
So there's so sorry to interrupt, but there's just so many.
So many different ways that a It's crushing to a woman because we already feel insecure. Exactly. And the deal is like we can't we can't control if an attractive person pops up on our screen, walks by our house, see we see them at, you know, out At a restaurant or whatever, there's beautiful people everywhere, right? We can notice them, but we get to choose whether or not we keep staring or we keep looking or we start lusting over them. And so I just remember back in those days, especially, I never really paid like I never really felt like I had to pay attention to that with Dave.
But after I discovered that he had a porn issue. That was definitely on my mind. Like, well, what else is he looking at? Because it makes you doubt everything. And I was like, oh my gosh, is he thinking this lady over here is hot?
Is he like lusting about her? You know, I mean, you're thinking those things. And I just remember he would go out of his way just to avoid. Situations where it would be like super tempting, like gyms. Like we, we at one point changed our gym because we just didn't want it to be a temptation.
Like instead of going to the amazing popular gym in town, we went to the YMCA. Which I loved because the average age there was about ninety-four and And long t-shirts. This is true. You feel better about your shirts. I felt so much better about my shirt.
I did. I made all kinds of friends. I'd walk around drinking coffee for the first hour. I did. And then when I finally started working out, I'd be like, I am strong.
Look at this. I got like 10-pound dumbbells, but I felt like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
So you guys, as some couples hearing, they're like, this is ridiculous. Oh, I'm sure they think that. And yet. Ashley, what did that mean to you? It meant the world.
It meant that I'm a higher priority. And I mean, honestly, I wasn't going to that gym thinking, oh, he's looking. But Dave was like, you know, sweetie, he goes, I just think we need to go to the why where it's not even a thing because there were like there would just be a lot of like scantily dressed women there. Men and women who are wearing things to be noticed. They want to be able to do that.
Well, think about what you're also, I mean, your kids are probably little then. Yeah. But if they're old enough to watch what's happening, you are showing your sons, this is how you're speculating. Or your wife. Have you had that change?
Have you told them that? Oh, I think so. Yeah. I've told my my older my older boys, you know, and they they got in into gyms and I would say, Yeah, like I used to I used to go there and this is this is why I you know why I stopped. And now we just have some weights at home and that's like.
So that was great. He just worked out at home. But I, yeah, I've talked to them about that. I said, I said, because. It was this, everywhere I looked, it felt like an unsafe place to look in that place.
I remember we shared this before, but. When I was walking through a mall in Atlanta, Georgia, actually Dalton, Georgia. You know where that is. That's where her parents lived. Nice.
And so it's me with the three boys. And I'm guessing my oldest was maybe 11.
So 11, 9, 6. And they're in front of me, right? And I'm walking, and I see in the middle of this mall, not. in a store, but there's this little magazine rack. And it was like.
Low to the ground, and there's a like sports illustrated swimsuit, it's some kind of swimsuit issue. And I'm literally looking at my boys to see if they notice it. And I notice my older son. Saw it. The other two, too young.
They didn't even know it.
So I grabbed, I grabbed this, and CJ's giving me permission to say this, but I grabbed him, I think he's 11, and he was. Uh, hit maturity early.
So he looks like he's like 13, 14. And I go, Hey, CJ. Did you see that magazine rack up there? He goes, No, no, I didn't see it. I go, I did.
He goes, Oh, well, yeah, I saw it. I go, and I'll never forget. And I'm down, you know, at his level. And the other two boys are running around. I go, hey, did you want to look at that girl in her bathing suit?
She goes, oh, no, I didn't want to look. I go, well, I wanted to look. He goes, Well, yeah, I wanted to look too much. And I go, so did you look? He goes, no, I didn't look.
I go, yeah, I saw you. You looked. And so all I did was go, hey. That's normal. She's a very beautiful woman.
She's on this cover. That's normal. You're going on a good look. But you know what I do, CJ? I don't have eyes for anybody but your mom.
And so when I see that kind of thing, I turn, I go, let's make a pass. And I'll never forget it was one of those moments like we are in this together. Right. That's it. You know, teaching him about sex was not really, it was an intentional moment.
The other boys. We weren't there yet. Right. That day will come, but man, that was like a moment to respect women. And he'll never forget.
That's what. The whole point of this book is. Yeah. And the whole point of our, well, the main point of our video course is looking for those moments to just lead by example and make it a teachable moment without putting shame on them. Right.
To say, listen, it's normal. It's natural that you're going to notice. You're going to have these feelings. You're going to be drawn. There's not shame in that, but it's what we do with those feelings, waiting, realizing God has a time and a place within marriage someday for all of that to be expressed in a beautiful and healthy way.
But until then, Any expression of that is going to be a counterfeit on some level that's going to hurt you and others. But don't feel bad that you have these feelings. That's just. It means you're becoming an adult and So you can celebrate their growth. At the same time, all the same safeguards.
With safeguards, which you did, and that's a great example. When we talk about like and you talk about in this book The locker room mentality? What is that? Is this what we're talking about? Yeah, well, the locker room mentality.
Be careful. I've been in a lot of locker rooms. I know. You know, hey, I have.
Well, yeah, I wasn't as athletic as this, Dave, so I didn't have as many locker rooms. I have been in locker rooms. I think. Though what I'm referring to is just When guys get in guy only spaces. How, and it doesn't have to be an actual locker room, but the mentality there when guys can get in guy-only spaces and the jokes all of a sudden can become degrading to women, or the talk can become like overly sexualized, the bravado or we're trying to project.
And it doesn't, we don't outgrow it. I was, I was at a gym, you know, like not that long ago. Again, like an older person gym, that's where I hang. And there were two guys. In there, they both had to be.
in their seventies, Um And they were talking together. About porn. As if Really? That's what they're into. Two seven-year-old guys, and one was saying, Yeah, I just.
I gave, you know, gave my laptop. To my my grandson, but I had to have my tech guy, like, you know, wipe it because, like, I had all, you know, all my good porn on there, and and I didn't, you know, didn't want him to see that. And they, but they were, they were talking, you know, about. They were talking about porn, like, you know, you would just talk about cars or sports or whatever. Like, have you seen the latest movie?
It was just such a natural. And I just kind of sat there like a fly on the wall for a while and thought, you know what? Without intentionality. We never outgrow. Sin.
You never outgrow, you know, just sexual sin or lust or that mindset that disrespects women, that objectifies. And so it's not just a thing of like, oh, we got to. teach our our kids because When they're teenagers, this will be a temptation, but then they'll outgrow it and it won't be a thing. No, without Christ changing your heart and renewing your mind, and without being intentional of saying, I don't want to live that way. Then You're we're all going to be the old guy at the at the gym someday that's still Creepy, you know, that's still and And it was, it was creepy.
I mean, it is. Yeah. Totally. But it was so normal. That's what, I think that's what surprised Dave.
It wasn't like, oh, I'm struggling with this. It was just like, this is normal. This is normal. This is what men do. This is what men do.
It's scary. And it's making so little of men. And it's holding them to such a low standard if that's normal. And it's keeping them captive. Yeah.
And it's affecting their future relationships with every single woman. Yeah. Absolutely. So happy. And the same is happening with women where porn has become so normalized and that, yeah, it's okay for women to look at it too.
It's empowering even. Exactly. And that's affecting our futures. And we all know because we've been married a while, this really married a little longer than you guys. I know.
It really affects your marriage relationship and your legacy. Sure, it does. That's Sad to me. It was sad to me. Yeah.
It is. Yeah, I uh Believe it or not, right now, um play on a softball team. Awesome. It may be called senior softball. Seasoned.
Seasoned softball. Seasoned. There you go. I like that. You should see us run.
It's ugly. But. You know, it's all none of these guys are church guys. They call me the rabbi. Which is hilarious because they don't even know the right thing.
It's like, hey, rabbi, you know, it's just funny. But. It's a normal conversation for these guys to talk about the porn they looked at this weekend. Yep. Mm-hmm.
I mean, it's just Wow. And they don't even blink that. I'm sitting right there, you know, and I'm in there like, hey, guys, you know, not that you can't talk about this, but it's like, do you understand what you're? What are you doing to women? And they just laugh like, what?
Women, that's what they want. Like, oh my goodness. And they're all married. You know, it's just, I love these guys. I'm there.
I want to be the light of Jesus in this world, but that's how normal it is that you. And you wrote this in 19, and it's even gotten worse. Oh, yeah. Ashley, what have those conversations been like with your boys about this topic? Because with a mom, it's like we wonder: do I have those conversations with our sons?
Dave's having those. Do I chime in too of what it makes me feel as a woman? Right. What's that been like? You know, at first, I had those questions: should I just let Dave do the talking in this area?
Because he, you know, he had the background with porn and he's, it'd be like man to man. And I don't know, as we've kind of navigated it through the years, I've gotten more comfortable. And Dave actually was like, sweetie, I think they need to hear from you as a woman and how that made you feel and how, you know, if a man's staring you down and looking at you sexually, how does that make you feel? You know, the dude in the grocery store or whatever, or, you know, things like that. And just talking to the boys about it.
So I have, I've been like, listen, you need to watch where your eyes go. I talk a lot about that because I know, I mean, they're, you know, are as of right now, we have an 18-year-old and 20-year-old. And I know those hormones are raging. And I'm like, you got to get a grip on this. And it's up to you.
And God will give you the ability to do that. But you have to be mindful of where your eyes are going. And you can't just follow the crowd and get wrapped up in all of this. And so I've been able to talk to them from that perspective. And I do, you know, we have one son who has a girlfriend right now.
And a lot of times I'll be like, how are you showing respect to your girlfriend? And, you know, and just talking through what that looks like. And it's been really neat to have that open conversation. And I would say a lot of times they'll ask me questions now because we've had those conversations.
So they'll come to me and say, like, you know, mom, what do you think about this? And just we talk through it pretty openly. I mean, I think that, like Dave said, with the work we do, we might be more open than the next person just because we talk about this all the time. But I do think that as parents, we do have a responsibility to open up the conversation. It might even start off very awkward.
I mean, I know ours really did, but we're really cultivating a safe place. We're reminding our kids, hey, the world's going to tell you a lot of things, but we need you to come to us and you can come to us. And we're going to give you the best answer we can. And it's going to be based on biblical truth. And we're going to tell you, too, where we feel like we've done this right and where we've really gone wrong and what we've learned.
And thankfully, they do, they do bring us some.
Some questions. There's been times where I have to, Dave has to grab my arms to wipe the shock off my face. Because I'm like, what? Just be shocked later. You know, not right now.
This is what we want. Yeah, like, yeah. We meet a ton of couples who say Family Life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a Family Life partner is all about: helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here. And we'd love for you to join us.
So click the donate button at familylifetoday.com and become a partner today. Do it. I don't know, that might have been a good one. He did a really good one. That might have been a one-taker.
You want to talk about the bus? Yeah, I think that's early in the book. Like, one of our sons, first day of eighth grade, came home and he was like, um, hey. Is it normal? Like, do girls really like it when guys like text pictures of their private parts to them and were like.
What eighth grade? Eighth grade. He was like, Yeah, these boys on the bus were they were taking pictures of their private parts and then trying to show people and laughing and texting and saying, Girls love getting pictures like this. And he was like, And I could tell he was really confused and troubled by it. But I love that he came to you.
He came to us, yeah. And I'm so glad he did. And so, and Ashley instead, like, I think her instinct was like, Who are they? Who are we're gonna? That's we're gonna arrest them.
And I'm just shocked, and they just don't expect it in eighth grade. Right with you, Ashley said, Man, thank you, thank you for trusting us with this. And I said, Um. First off, like Like, no, it's not, it's not good. In fact, it's illegal for underage.
People to be taking those pictures or receiving those pictures or anybody to receive pictures of an underage person. And so, first off, it's illegal. That's good. I like that you said it's illegal because that puts fear into our children. Yeah, for sure.
It's considered child pornography. And we talked about all that. And I said, But, but it's wrong. I said, and we talked about why it's wrong and how it's disrespectful, it's violating, like all of those things. And and Ray will unpack it.
And he listened and he goes. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought it was pretty weird, but I was just making sure. And like, and he just went on with his day, like like video games. But Being able to like And and then we're we're looking at each other like uh Yeah.
Like, oh my gosh. You know, what's happening? But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge. I like you putting your hand up. He really did a lot of these moments.
That is me. Yes.
It's that mama there. Yeah, she calms me down a lot. But with this kind of stuff, I'm usually the one like, we'll freak out later. Yeah. Now's not the time.
Our oldest son at one point was listening to this music. I am like, you guys, I can get so hot. It's fun when she gets it. Is this like music from Satan itself? You're not playing this music in my house.
And Dave just kind of like, you know, and he pulls the CD out of the trash can. He's like, hey, so what are you? Like, tell me about this music. Like, I just have to go in the other room and cool off a little bit. Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
I've been there many times. That's right. But obviously you've created a safe net where they feel like they can bring up that kind of stuff. A lot of homes would be like and no way I could ever talk to mom and dad about this.
So, I mean, obviously, it's in. What you talked about with familylife.com slash sex talk, how do you have this talk with your kids? How did you develop an environment in your home where they felt Safe to bring this kind of stuff up? Is this something you started talking about? Since they're little boys?
We did. And I think we realized early, like This is something we cannot outsource. Right. Because the world would love you to outsource these conversations and just send them to the internet or send them to somebody else or let the friends at school fill in the gaps. And they're going to get so many wrong messages that way.
I'm like, this is. And we signed up to be parents. This was one of those key responsibilities that, like, we have to instill. These core values about respect, about God's plan for sex. And yeah, it can be uncomfortable sometimes.
Man, these are some of the most important conversations we'll ever have. And if you're. Listening to this and you feel Not equipped, or you feel like, oh my goodness, because of my own past, or I don't want those things to come up or to answer hard questions. Your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they need you to be present. They need you to be honest.
And and to Just Guide them. Guide them through this with what you did right, with what you did wrong. There's so much at stake. And you've got this. You're the most qualified person on earth to have these conversations with your children.
And in the resource, How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, we really talk through it. Like we have a parental video for parents only before they watch the video with their child. But then the most important part of all this is the conversation they will have after watching that video with their child.
So they're watching the video together. Yes, yes. And that way the child can ask questions or not, or the parent can post questions or say, hey, was something unclear? Do you want to ask me a question? about this because I know sometimes this can be really nerve-wracking and I know when I was your age this was an awkward conversation with my parents or my parents didn't know how to talk to me about this you know and um and that that was really my experience I have a wonderful parents but they didn't know how to talk to me about this and I really think it went back to their own uh past they didn't know how to address that or how to share it with me or if I would ask questions that they didn't know how to answer and so I remember going into marriage and we did get married young so maybe my poor parents didn't have enough time to gather their thoughts but they just you know it wasn't talked about really it was just shut down and I remember when We were, you know, having we had young children.
We knew someday we'd have to have these talks with them. We wanted to do it differently and really get ahead of it because the truth is, younger and younger kids are being exposed to mixed messages about sex. And I think a lot of parents, you know, we want to live in denial and think, well, not my baby. You know, he or she's not going to be exposed at their school. It's a good school and there's no not going to be a kid with a cell phone showing them an image.
And I just want to burst that bubble and say, tragically, it's everywhere. I mean, I've taught in a Christian school and I've taught in a public school. And I can tell you, kids are kids everywhere. And the only difference was in a Christian school, I could actually talk to them and pray with them. But other than that, they're kids and kids are curious.
And we want to get ahead of that curiosity and really talk to them about how sex is a powerful gift from God and how they have license over the bodies that God gave them. And so, therefore, they have boundaries they need to put in place with people and they need to respect other people's boundaries. And, you know, we just wanted to help parents with this resource to have these conversations and to not feel like they're ill-equipped because. Because you're their parents. I mean, and with that, God gave you that authority to be their teacher and to get equipped and be able to answer those hard questions.
I love that you guys are doing the heavy lifting of it too. Because they're watching it, you guys are saying a bunch of this great stuff, and it's just this, it's a on-ramp to a conversation. Yes, and I think that's really needed for us. Like, oh, okay, they're going to talk about it, and then I'm just going to kind of we're going to walk together through it. I think it's so needed.
I love it. I love that you guys are doing that. Thank you. We try to create what we wish we would have had. Yes.
So we had some tools that helped. You know, some some of those were were from family life. From family life, yeah. And we're thankful for that. But But it's like, what were the conversations?
What do we wish we would have had? And that's what we tried to create with the team here. And it's a different day. Yeah, it's a different day. The challenges are different.
The temptations are different. The questions are different. The core principles are always going to be the same about sex. But I'm really excited about. This resource, and I really do hope that it brings parents and kids closer together with each other, creates some bonding moments, and also.
Takes away some of the fear around these talks. And um and equips the next generation with some tools that are going to help them Walk the beautiful path God has for him. And I mean, obviously, it's one of the best ways you can respect. Each other. Yes.
And you know, your book's about Boys respecting men respecting their women. One of the most, I think, fascinating, and you have a chapter on it. studies I ever did way back was how Jesus Was the model in that culture of elevating and respecting women? I remember when I was studying this and getting a grip on it as sort of a seminary student, there was a TV show you guys are too young to remember that was really popular called LA Law. Oh, I knew LA Law.
Remember LA Law? Yes, I told you. We were into it. We were living in California at the time, so we thought we were LA people. Yes.
But there was an actress, I don't know what her name was. She was popular on the show, but there was a quote that came out around that time from her about Jesus. And again, I could look it up and tell you her name. But she said this, I'm not a Christian. because of what Jesus did to women.
I'm not going to follow a man that did what he did to women. And I wanted to call her and go. You have no idea what how he elevated women. Oh my gosh, more so than anybody in anybody in that culture is hard. Explain that a little bit.
Yes.
Well, how did you? I'm so glad you brought that up, Dave. It's my favorite chapter in the book, really. Isn't it? It is because Jesus is our role model for all things, but I don't think we always think of him as being the role model for how men should respect women.
And he, man, he set the bar so high the way he valued women, the way he made women the heroes in stories that he told, which was never happened. Whenever happened, the way he honored them in his conversations, the way he sought them out and. Brought them into the ministry and allowed them to lead and serve and use their God-given gifts. The way he took time, you know, to meet meet their needs, the way he allowed them to participate in meeting the needs of the ministry. There were women that were financial contributors as well to helping the ministry go forward.
And I mean, it was radically countercultural. In that day, in that time, in that place, the way that Jesus elevated women that we might look at today and say, yeah, well, that's. You know, that's the way that it should be. But back then, nobody was doing that. Nobody.
Nobody. I mean, he. He was revolutionary, of course, in so many ways. But what we don't talk about enough is how revolutionary he was in elevating and respecting women.
So, as a boy, as a man, We have to follow Jesus, right? Absolutely. That's the model. I mean, I think of John 4, of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, how many things that he did. In that Jewish culture, that would have never been done.
One, that he would talk to a Samaritan woman as a rabbi, that he would touch something, asking her for a drink, which means she would have touched it, which means he would have touched it, which you're not allowed to do that. I was on a flight to Israel with some Orthodox Jewish men, and they couldn't sit in the seat beside one of our women. Really? And so he had to get the flight attendant. They had to move.
There were so many different things that they were obeying the custom of. their faith and I'm imagining Jesus having this conversation with this woman alone, even talking to her and initiating the conversation. It's like all the rules are broken, but it's his like, he sees her. He sees her. And in the midst of seeing her, he respects her and gives her dignity.
Yes.
And talk about a woman that was walking with shame. And he elevates, like, it's phenomenal of what. How countercultural he was, and still is in so many ways. I love that. It's one of my favorites.
Me too.
So, as we sort of bring this to a close, is they're like: if you think, and I know it's now, it's 2025. We're six years removed from when this was uh published. Top three If you can come up with three. Maybe there's 10. Ways for men to respect women, boys to respect girls.
What are the top ones that come to your mind? Wow. We should do two and two. Two and two. Two and two.
All right, yeah. We'll see if there's anything. Two that are just, I don't have a top two, but just two that are good.
So. Um I think One One of the things in the research for this book that really stood out to me is is how much more often women are interrupted than men just in conversation. And Um I like, I mean, I talk fast and like just in general, I've tried to be less of an interrupter. But For men and women, like I've Been an interrupter, and I'm sorry. Probably even in this interview.
Forgive me. Of course. I've always. Is this what you're going to say? I don't know what you're going to say.
I don't want to say. I don't know what you're going to say. I notice that if you're on stage, or even here, if you guys interrupt each other, you're like, oh, I'm really sorry. That just always stuck out to me. You've always done it.
Both of you do. And I've noticed, you know, videos I see online where you're teaching at a marriage conference. You let Ashley talk and you don't interrupt. There are times I cut her off. She'll say something, I'm like, Dave is really respecting her.
It's her moment. And you can tell by the way you're looking at her, you're like, this is really good. It isn't just like she's talking about. I got a front row seat to some gold here. But that's respect.
It's modeled the way you treat what she's doing. We try and try. Try to teach that to our boys. Don't interrupt. Value.
what women have to say and Give them the floor. You know? And so that's. That's one. What's one that you have I know I keep coming back to it, but I would say the eyes.
The eyes are so important where your eyes go. I think a husband will build so much security and trust in his wife if he can just divert his eyes. I mean, again, you can notice something, but diverting your eyes. And you do that for me. We try to teach our boys to do the same thing.
And I just know it doesn't go unseen. And I appreciate that. Whether it's a TV show, you know, something on a lot of shows these days, it could be the number one show on Netflix. You start watching it and all of a sudden something crazy, like a huge sex scene goes on and we'll immediately like fast forward or just turn it off. And that's also diverting your eyes.
Right. And I feel like, and this is in the, in the open places and more is even more so in the secret places. Just not even letting the enemy get a foothold, I think is so important. But a lot of it starts right there in the eyes. And then it's what you allow yourself to think about, you know?
Do you know what Steve Farrar? You know that name? I don't think so. Steve was on our Family Life speaker we can remember speaker team.
So I, right when we joined, we're much younger than him.
So he was, and he wrote a book called Point Man, and he had a military background as a guy who leads a platoon into escort the Point Man.
So he's like, You're the Point Man of your family. It's a great book about manhood, just an amazing guy. And I'll never forget a story he tells in the book. This is. thirty some years ago, where he just says they're sitting on a stoplight and he's with his teenage son.
And a girl walks across to go to the other side. And his son turns to his dad and goes, Dad? You never look. He goes what? Because I've watched you my whole life.
Women walk by. That girl was very pretty. She wasn't dressed. You never look. And Steve says, I turned to him and said, yeah, there's times I have.
But his point is they're watching. They are watching, they're watching every second. And that, what he was saying to you, his dad was, You respect women, right? And I'm watching, and I'm learning how to be a man. That's the most powerful lesson more than anything we'll say, is just what we're doing, his parents and his dad's in this case.
Yeah, that's what they're watching, right?
So, let's make sure we're respecting women, our eyes, our words, our body. I mean, porn is the ultimate disrespect of women. Absolutely. It's just like that is a signal to the world they don't matter. Right.
They're just property. Right. I mean. Yeah, any other ones that come to your minds right off the top?
Well, he mentioned words, and I would say it's not just how you talk to your spouse, which is extremely important, not just for your spouse, but for your kids if you have children in the home, but also how you talk about women. Like we know people, and it shows in their marriage too, but they just have a derogatory view of women. And it probably goes back to how they were raised, and they don't even realize it. Cause, you know, if you're. A fish in water, you don't know what it's like to be out of the water until you are.
You're like, and you're like, oh, there's another, we can exist another way. And so I think it's just taking, really praying and saying, Lord. Reveal to me any blind spots I have and how I view women and help me to heal from that. Because I think that if you have this negative view of women, like all women are XYZ, or you know, oh, you know. You know, I'm looking because she's putting it out there.
I've heard that before. Yeah. Well, I'm looking only because she's, you know, showing her midriff, so she wants me to look. You know, all these excuses that we, these lies we believe, right? That we make excuses in our life.
But we really, I think what it comes down to is just a really negative view of women. And I think taking those thoughts captive and really. Really just Thinking more positively, but also more respectfully about women, because then that's how you're going to speak about them, right? And really taking, you know, thinking about how do I speak about women in my home? Is it Always talking something negative about this woman at work or the neighbor who's a woman or about your wife when your wife isn't around.
I mean, really think about that because it not only has an effect on the people, has an effect on the people around you. It perpetuates your next thought. You know, if you're always thinking negatively and always speaking negatively and disrespectfully. then that's all you're going to do. I would piggyback on that and say The words that Dave says about me.
In front of our boys. Like, I think it's one of his greatest gifts. He's constantly complimenting me. That's awesome. You're easy to compliment.
No, you are so good at it. And I've watched our sons model that with their wives. And I know that it's because you have always been like my biggest cheerleader. Like, oh, your mom's amazing. That, that.
You should have seen your mom do that back in the day. And I'm like, man, you are so nice to me. And it's such a sweet gift, and it's such a great model for our kids to hear us complimenting. Our spouse. That's so good.
Both ways. Yes.
The one. I'll footnote your footnote. Whatever you just said. Piggyback, you're piggyback. One of the ways I think I disrespected Ann.
And men can do this and it can go either way is I would be harsh. In my tone. Oh, talent. Even sometimes it's saying the right thing, but it's like sort of with a know-it-all attitude, sort of like. It's a roll of the eyes.
Like, that was stupid. You're stupid. And she would say, I remember one time she said, I am not stupid. I'm like, I didn't say you're stupid. Yeah.
Your eye rolls. That is so disrespect. Absolutely. And I didn't realize I had it. You want to hear a funny story, which we put in our vertical marriage small group deal, but she tried to tell me that I was that way.
You know, like, you're harsh at times. And, you know, it was so a blind spot. I'd be like, I'm not harsh. And she's like, exhibit A, you know, the way you even. And we're at her parents, and with the kids who were a little alone, they all had boys.
All her siblings had boys. We had 12 grand.
Sons and no granddaughters. And so they're all over the place. And I've got this little camcorder with the, you know, back in the VCR days, I'm filming this thing. And later the parents came in and everybody comes in, we're going to watch this video I made. And at the end of the video.
And everybody's watching it. When you were filming it. Yeah. And now we're watching it. I go up.
You can see it on the camera. I go up to turn it off. And I thought I turned it off, but I didn't.
So you see me do this. I come back and we get into it, and my harshness is right there. Oh, wow. And my family is in the room, and my mom and dad are like, oh my God. Her brothers are like, dude, I'm running up there, like, stopping right there.
And I'm like, fuck. There it is. Everything she's tried to tell me I was. You said it. I saw it.
I'm like, you guys. I'm an idiot. I am a jerk. I am a know-it-all. That's what I was.
Most of us don't know. I mean, Ashley's said, you said to me before, like, sometimes like you don't know. Like, I'm not meaning anything, like, but your tone, how you're coming, not just like to her, but just like in general, I'll get going about something. And she's like, you seem like so. I'm like, I'm not angry.
I'm just. She's like, well, you, you don't. She's very gentle, but she'll say, you don't know how you're coming across. You're not seeing it. I'm not seeing the VHS tape of myself.
Or if I saw it, I'd be like, I look like an idiot. And so you got to trust your spouse when they point out those blind spots.
Well, it's funny too, because Dave, this was a battle for, I remember like four months trying to say, it's that. When you say that, or you give me that look, it just shuts my spirit down. And he's like, you know, rolling his eyes again, like, which is disrespect. Yeah. And I remember I couldn't.
Figure out how to communicate it. But you know what? I do remember doing is praying, like, Lord, He can't see it. I need, like, if this isn't a deal, then I just need to stop being so sensitive. But, Lord, if I could communicate it and you can help me to figure out how to communicate it.
I think that would be really helpful.
So I'm watching him like, this is God. Yes.
God made away. Here's everything to me. God's like, I got this, man. I get you, girl. Video evidence.
Yes.
VHS for the win. I don't like that prayer. No, I know. But it definitely, definitely helps.
Well, let me say this just as we wrap up. Go to familylife.com/slash sextalk to get the video course from you guys. We're so glad you get to guys did that for Family Life. This is a gift to Family Life. What a blessing that's going to be for people.
It's really going to help. And obviously, you know, share this podcast and this YouTube, whatever you watch. This is a great conversation for. Men and boys to understand how to respect women. And it's really both ways.
Absolutely. Yeah, both ways. And for women to listen to, to even know how to communicate. And maybe you listen to it as a woman, think, oh, we need to talk about this as a couple so that we can be on the same page with our kids. I didn't even mention we'll also have the book there.
Well, actually, the books at familylifetoday.com. Click on the show notes. And get it. I mean, this thing, you know, it's going to become a bestseller after this conversation. Again.
Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button. Yeah, and we'd like you to subscribe.
So, all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. Like and subscribe.
Look at that. You say it's so easy. Subscribe. There he goes. Yeah.
