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Uh And I'm saying the choices you're making right now. are shaping the man you're going to be. The choices you're making right now, even the ones that seem insignificant, from the friends you're hanging around to the words you speak to the way you treat other people, it's putting you on a path that's gonna lead in any number of directions. And if you make wise choices now, It's going to put you in a place of wisdom later on in life and just raising up the value of the decisions they make because life is telling them, oh, you're young, you're a teenager, you do whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. And we're trying to give the opposite message that now what you say, what you do right now, it matters so much.
That's Dave Willis, and he and his wife Ashley join us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and on John Fuller. You know, John, as parents, we carry a pretty big responsibility, if not the responsibility, to help shape the next generation, our children, maybe even some of their friends that come over to the house to play ping pong or do the things that they do. And it means we have to teach our boys how to respect girls, right? And in this culture today, that's a tough task because there's very little supporting girls and women. Just think about it.
You know, the whole Title IX issue and what has happened to women's sports with the trans issue and so much more. It's just there seems to be a slow and sometimes fast degrading of women in the culture. And, you know, boys and men have a responsibility to say, no, we're going to respect girls and women. And today we're going to talk about that subject with experts who have four sons of their own. Dave and Ashley Willis, our conference speakers, relationship coaches, and podcast hosts.
They've been in full-time marriage ministry for about 10 years now and have four sons, as you said, Jim. Dave has a terrific book on this topic called Raising Boys Who Respect Girls: Upending Locker Room Mentality, Blind Spots, and Unintended Sexism. Dave and Ashley, welcome back to Focus on the Family. Good to have you here. Good to be here.
Thank you, guys. We love you. We didn't pay you to say that, did we? Right, right.
Okay, just want to make sure.
Now, this question: this is the way to get out of the gate. Your son Cooper once came home from school asking if girls liked it when boys sent them indecent pictures. When I first read that, I was like, What? Yeah. That's a different era now.
It's a different era. I mean, that would have been an era. When I was a boy, that never would have popped up. Oh, my goodness. We wouldn't have even thought of that.
But that's kind of the question we've got to deal with with our sons today. A lot of eye-raising moments, shocking moments that we didn't grow up with the technology that made these things possible. What did you say to him?
Well, we've kind of made a pact early on that we're not going to freak out in the moment. No matter what our kids ask, that's the first good parenting tip. That's good. First good parenting tip. Don't freak out in the moment.
You can freak out with each other later, but in the moment, you got to be calm and be a safe place for them to share because as you're a safe place for them to share, the more they're going to share.
So he came home from his first day of eighth grade. And He said, How was your day? It was fine. It was fine. And he asked that question: Hey, just out of curiosity, do girls really like it when boys send these like indecent Pictures of themselves.
And I'm like, well, why don't you unpack that for me? You know? And he said, well, on the bus, on the way home, some of the boys on the bus were taking inappropriate pictures of themselves. and trying to show the other kids on the bus Pictures of what they've taken and saying, Girls love it when you send them pictures like this. And they were laughing about it.
And Cooper said it felt so inappropriate, but it gave us an opportunity to just unpack it one step at a time: say, buddy, listen. You're going to be exposed to a lot of things that just aren't right, aren't healthy. In this case, what those boys are doing is actually illegal. That's child pornography.
So to possess that or share that is illegal. But it gave us a bigger time to talk about God's design for respecting one another and for the sacredness of sex and all these things. And he was really receptive to it, but it was a wake-up call for us of just what. our kids are being exposed to.
Well, and the other thing, too, is, man, don't think because you have your kids in a Christian school or they're going to church every Sunday that they get this. I mean, it's sad, but now your other three boys coming along, you probably before the first day of eighth grade said, okay, I got to talk to you about something. This could happen. Right. Yeah.
I mean, that's one of the difficulties as a parent today is trying to get ahead of, especially the sexual discussions, because it just, the culture reeks. of sexualization. And for boys, we got to, and some girls now too. Yes. We got to get, you know, ahead of that to help have those discussions.
So, as a mama, Ashley, I mean, how did you respond to that question?
Well, I'm going to be honest: like, my first instinct was to freak out. Like, literally, like, what are you talking about? Like, I wanted to. And Dave could call me. Like, Dave could see it on my face, and he just gently grabbed my hand and was like, This is what we wanted.
We wanted him to come to us. You know, but that's typical. Let me say, if you're that mom panicking and freaking out, that was Gene as well. I mean, this is kind of the normal thing. And the husbands at this point are going, Okay, this isn't unusual for boys, you know?
Yeah. But we got to deal with it.
So, yeah, continue.
Sorry. Yes. A little infomercial for moms freaking out.
Okay, that's every mom I've ever known. This is the truth. And so it was really not so much towards Cooper himself. It was more like, what in the world? Like, I can't believe this is going on at this age.
And I just wasn't ready for it because he's our firstborn. And so this was the first time we were hearing this from one of our kids. But very quickly, with Dave's help of helping me to remember that we want him to come to us with these things, I just really wanted him to hear as a woman how that would make me feel. And I was like, I can tell you 100% that that is so disrespectful. Like that is not good.
And then there's girls who feel pressured to also send pictures. And I know this from being a youth leader for years, that girls feel like, oh, that's what boys want. And they're having the same questions. And then it perpends. Perpetuates just this.
Really just unhealthy and, like Dave said, illegal correspondence between these kids, and they don't even know what to do with this.
So, your book, Raising Boys Who Respect Girls, I mean, it's beyond just this topic. That's just a wow, kind of opening question.
So, we covered that. If you want more information, get a copy of the book. But moving into more general context of teaching your boys how to respect girls. How do you go about doing that, being mindful of that as a dad, as a mom, you're both because of the fact that you're a woman and you're a man, you're going to bring different attributes in your parenting to that. What are some of the core things we need to think about?
Well, as parents, if you're married, I would say realize that you're modeling for your kids what healthy behavior and interaction looks like.
So, dads, if you're listening, the way you treat your wife. Is showing your boys how they should treat women and is showing your daughters what they should expect from men someday. And so, if our example isn't the right example, then we need to take a step back and say, Lord, help me to do this. And I know for a lot of guys, that's hard because maybe we didn't have an example ourselves. And so, even if you didn't have that, By the way, my own father didn't have that.
But he chose, with God's grace, to break that cycle and to become that. As imperfect as all of us are, and as imperfect as he was, he really modeled respect toward my mother. And I caught that. And I want to do the same for Ashley. I think it starts just in how we're treating each other in marriage, because your kids learn a lot more by watching than they do by.
Listening to your advice most of the time. It's so true. They do. And one of the biggest things that I think dads can do, especially for their sons, is be very, very mindful of where their eyes go. Because having Mindfulness about where your eyes linger is everything.
And do not make the mistake of believing your sons don't see it because they do and your daughters see it too. And so we've got to get a grip on where our eyes go. I mean, we can't help, as people, men and women, seeing someone attractive walk by, but we get to choose if we keep on staring at them. It's so true. You know, you mentioned in the book that Jesus is a wonderful role model about how to treat women.
You know, you think about the culture he was born into. It was very demeaning toward women in many ways. I mean, the Roman Empire, right? And yet Jesus came onto the scene and gave women dignity, Mary Magdalene and other women. Speak to that difference that he made.
Coming onto the scene and raising women to a status of equality, made in his image, male and female. I'm so glad you brought that up. It's my favorite chapter in the book. And I almost laugh when I hear people in the modern context say, oh, well, I could never be a Christian. It's so oppressive to women.
And I laugh and I think, you don't know history. I'm like, in all of human history, there has never been anyone who's done more to elevate the status of women than Jesus Christ did. And when you look in the Gospels of how he did that and how countercultural it was, and it wasn't just about women being oversexualized, which they were, and they had that kind of exploitation, and they had so few rights, but it was also there was a misogyny and a distrust toward women. A woman's testimony was not valid in a court of law. But when you look at Jesus taking time to intentionally pursue Women, not only women of high respect in society, but women like the Samaritan woman at the well that society had forgotten and ostracized.
And he's pursuing them, he's elevating their value. When Jesus would tell his parables, he intentionally made women the heroes of so many of those stories, whether it's the persistent widow and her praying or other examples in the gospel, the times that he healed them, the friendships that he formed with women like Mary and Martha, allowing them to be even the first to see the resurrection, the first ones to experience the first ones. Yeah, the first word the resurrected Christ spoke was saying Mary's name, Mary. And she recognized him and was able to go and share what she saw. None of that is by accident.
Like, Jesus is giving us a model that was so countercultural and elevates and still to this day elevates women to the God-given sacredness that they have. I think the other aspect there is Jesus' relationship with his mother, Mary. Yes. Ashley, as a woman, as a mom, I mean, what do you, when you read scripture in that context of Jesus lifting up women, what do you see? I mean, I just see a respecter of women, and I love that.
And I do think it goes against what.
Some people are trying to spread as a narrative today about him holding women down. And I mean, probably one of my favorite stories is the woman at the well. I just love how he went against really the cultural norms of his day to go and talk to this woman and minister to her and not bring necessarily like shame on her like others had done, but to show her that she didn't have to keep living in shame. She didn't have to keep living life this way, and that there was this living water that only he could offer her. And I just think it was just so beautiful.
And I think it's important that we remember that and that Jesus loves women and he wants women to be respected. And he is the model that we all should follow. Yeah, so good. What do the conversations sound like with your boys, given everything you just said? Because this is a big topic and we can't protect them 24/7, but how do you process?
The inevitable time when guys are together and they're swaggering or they're sharing things that are degrading. How do you help your boys Yeah, I think we we try to tell them to lead by example. And if You can't change a conversation, and it's clearly going in a direction and staying in a direction that you're uncomfortable with, then to just excuse yourself from that setting. You don't have to stay there, you get to choose what rooms you're in. And there's, it takes a lot of courage sometimes to walk away from settings and sometimes even walk away from relationships where there's a pattern of really unhealthy behavior because you're going to be like the people you hang out the most.
The Bible talks so much about choosing the right friends, and that bad company corrupts good character. And we've got to be intentional, not in a judgmental way or an elitist way, but in a really discerning way to choose our friends wisely because we're going to become like they are. It's so true. I remember one time one of our sons was talking about how. He likes to have a friend come up to him and he was like, Hey, we have this list of girls, and we're like rating them based on looks and this and that.
And at first, he thought it was funny. And I was like, Rewind this back and tell me what you just said, and think about it if you. Were like there was guys, and the girls were raiding you. Would you think that was funny? And he was like, What?
He goes, Well, they're not doing that. I don't think they're doing that. And he kind of started having a whole different attitude. And I was like, What makes this any different, buddy? And I'm like, You're, it's your friends who you love.
And so it's kind of shadowing the truth of what's going on here. I'm like, how is this a good thing? And he kind of backtracked from it and was like, oh. Yeah, that's probably not good. And I was like, yeah, because you're not only mean to these girls, but you're also minimizing them to just bodies.
And all these kinds of things inevitably get out, and somebody's gonna get hurt. And I'm like, do you wanna be associated with this? Do you wanna really be part of this? And the more he thought about it, the more he was like, yeah, I don't wanna be part of that. Because he's like, that's really terrible.
I would never want someone to do that to me. And I think sometimes when we do get into these. You know, quote-unquote locker room settings. I think that guys, and I'm sure girls can do this too in our own way, but I think guys forget that these are real women who have, you know, souls and have hearts and minds that can be so hurt. And they just sometimes, when they're together, can forget about that.
And so we try to remind our kids of that. Yeah, you're developing empathy, which is a good thing. Yes. Dave, you made reference to kind of an older generation and how men used to care for and respect women. And we're missing that mark pretty wildly, it seems, in the general culture.
How do you bring forward people like your grandfather, I think it was, that you wrote about in the book and say this is the kind of person to emulate? Yeah, absolutely. I'm thankful to have some great examples in my own life from that. But I also want to just acknowledge that it's a complicated time for young men to know how to show respect to women. Because on one hand, when you try to show chivalry, There are certain women that might be offended by that to say, Well, I don't need your help, I don't need you to hold the door open for me.
And a young man's just being polite, and he's thinking, Wow, I feel like I can't win here. And so I think it's still the right thing to do to serve and to help people. But when we do it, what however we're doing it, we try to Do it the way that Jesus said to do it, which is the golden rule. Treat other people the way that you would want to be treated. And I think that goes for how we treat other men and how we treat women as well.
But even in these confusing times, even when. trying to be chivalrous. Trying to embody some of those positive masculine traits that God gave us can get you some backlash sometimes. I still think that. It's the right thing to do.
And if criticism comes for that, to say, look, I didn't mean to offend you. This is how I was raised. I was just trying to be polite and to show deference and kindness in those situations, which usually diffuses the situation. And just know there's a lot of anger out in the world right now. And a lot of it is because we've misunderstood so much of these issues.
So true. In your book, Raising Boys Who Respect Girls, you mentioned seven lessons that turn boys into men. I sent those to my two sons this morning early, like 6 a.m. I don't think they were up quite yet. But I did just check my phone.
They hearted it back to me.
So I think they thought those were right on. Let's hit that and we'll dig into a couple. One, have the courage to fight for what's right. Boy, do we need people? Men, yes, but everybody pulling for what's right.
Seek responsibility instead of running from it. That'll resonate with the guys. I think boys and young men want that challenge, and they don't get that challenge in today's modern culture. You know, I want to be somebody who is choosing what is right and being responsible for my decisions. Third, work hard at whatever you do.
And when you have a family, work hard to provide. Boy, there's a big one. That is an antiquated idea, but I think it's a good one. Four, show patience and restraint. You know, Trent, who is my oldest son, big guy, six, seven, weightlifter.
He says, you know, dad, when it says in the Bible to be meek, you know what that actually means in the Greek? What? To be ready, but to choose restraint. I'm good. He's ready.
Let me tell you. And I'm so glad he's choosing restraint. I am too. I'm glad he's on our side. But that's the point.
Patience and restraint. That's manhood.
Next, you said, respect your wife before you meet her by keeping yourself from sexual sin. Respect your wife after you're married by remaining faithful. That's so good.
Next, keep your word.
Next, trust God. And let his word be the roadmap of your life. I mean, those seven are really solid. Did you write that? Ashley, did you write that?
It was definitely Dave, and I love those. Yes. Do they resonate for you? Absolutely. Yes.
And I mean, when I hear that as a woman, You know, that makes me just feel so good about the future of men if we're raising men in that way. And it, it also, as a mom of men, I really want to instill those things in them alongside Dave. And I know it's a high calling. And again, as parents, we can blow it so easily. There's times we just don't get it right.
I mean, because we're imperfect. But I think when we're aiming for those things and teaching our boys those things and modeling those things ourselves, because even as women, we can model many of those things. I think that you know, more is really caught than taught. And I think in those moments when we don't get it right, being that open, safe place to talk about it, that goes a long way too. Absolutely.
You know, you have your boys, you have a little gap between number two and number three and four.
So what are the ages?
So right now they are 10, 13, 18, and 20.
So two in college and then two in school. Yeah, that's so good.
So, I mean, you've got the gambit still. And I think the big issue here is for the parents, but let's say the dad. that feel like they have blown it, they haven't set the right example, you can still come back and set that record straight. In the book, in fact, you're talking about you start this stuff at preschool, you know, start to talk about these things really early. But I'm thinking, you know, we sometimes need that punch list.
I mean, guys, we're thinking about everything, okay? They got to be taught how to respect women and girls, and then we got to help them respect the word of God. And you're thinking of devotions. And I mean, that list can get a little overwhelming for the guy who wants to come home from work and just plop down, watch the news maybe, or just chill out.
So how do we get out of that? Lazy Zone, if I could be bold enough. And say we have to be engaged. Maybe take a 10-minute break or whatever. But you got to engage those kids and it starts early.
It does start early. And yeah, we need rest too.
So yeah, I'm not beating up on somebody that needs to chill. The older I get, the more chill time I acquire. And then, brother, like our last kid, I feel some ways I'm... I feel wiser and more patient with him. In other ways, I feel so much more tired than I was.
It's like he just gets away with more. You got to be engaged. You just have to be present, right? Connecting with them and their world and then just looking for teaching opportunities along the way. That's really what's going to resonate with him.
Yeah. You know, you had an example in the book of your youngest son playing basketball and it was, I don't know, the number of guys, but there was also a girl on the team. And he had a little encounter with her. What happened? And how did you help straighten that out?
Yeah, yeah. He. He got mad one day. She didn't pass him the ball or something. And he said, Well, you shouldn't even be here.
You're a girl. And we, you know, we like really had a huddle. And she's such a great, and this is like eight-year-old basketball. Yeah, seven, eight, you know, amazing. And it really moved her feelings.
I mean, she, she already, I'm sure, felt being the only girl, it felt a little bit out of place, but she was such a great player, hard worker, just brought such life and spirit to the whole team. And, and we, you know, we huddled up and talked about respecting each other, the value every person has. Everybody's part of this team. We all belong on this team. And, and, you know, we talked about it that.
And I afterwards, of course, had that parenting moment to say, buddy, listen, that was. That was disrespectful to single her out to make her feel bad. And she works so hard, she's doing so much. And to make her feel like she doesn't belong on this team. Imagine if someone did that to you.
And we really had, so I made sure he apologized to her the next practice and all of that. Did it resonate for him? I think it did. I think it was a good teaching moment. And they were friends by the end of the season, which was really, really important.
You know, one of the mistakes I think we make as parents is, ah, it's no big deal. Just look the other way. But these are great moments to be able to say, let's think about what happened there and tell me what you're feeling and why you did it. But just, you know, to use those moments for teaching time. And hopefully, again, develop that empathy for: do you really know the power of what you said and how that would affect her?
Right. You know, to alienate her, to carve her off and separate her from her. I think he was probably insecure. She was taller than him. And I think that's what he was coming down to.
Yeah, at eight years old. He was like. Feeling a little bit insecure, but no excuse. Exactly. As your sons grew older, your two older sons now that are 20 and 18.
18.
So, I mean, you've gone through those teen years. Those discussions change. You know, it goes from like the eight-year-old co-player, but now you're talking about. You know, junior and high school, and some of that gets a lot more serious. How does that conversation change with older young men?
Well, I know for us, the conversations look different once they started dating. You know, I remember our second son, when he started dating someone, it was about like, okay, here's what you do want to date to show respect to your date and some of those chivalrous things. And just also in conversation, I talked a lot to our son about, you know, be sure that you don't go and talk, you know, disrespectfully about her, just like anyone else, but don't talk disrespectfully about her to your friends. Like, Like she's a bad kisser or, or whatever, you know what I'm saying? Because I remember one of our sons overheard this girl that he was interested in.
He was like really interested in her, but he overheard her and another girl talking badly about this guy that one of them had dated and how he wasn't a good kisser or something to that effect. And it made him not want to date her because he was like, I don't want to, he goes, she could talk that way about me and say something embarrassing. And so in the same way, we try to tell our boys, you know, be careful about how you talk about your girlfriend, your relationship, and just always come from a place of kindness and respect. Yeah, that is so good.
So right here at the end, for the parents that really are going, wow, we've really blown it. What's one thing they can do to say, okay, let's help our 14, 15-year-old. Get a little reorientation around respect for girls.
Well, I think it like with most things in parenting and life, it comes down to intentionality. Like, I just want to be intentional about this. Maybe you admit I've kind of gotten on autopilot with this, and this is too big a deal to be on autopilot.
So, I want to have these conversations. They'll lean in if, in those conversations, you talk about. Mistakes you've made in your own past, which I know is super scary for parents. But our authority as parents doesn't come from having lived perfect lives. It comes from being authentic and honest and real and saying, you know, this.
And I've made plenty of mistakes, and I've tried to, as our boys got older, talk about, you know, pornography and how that wrecked me and trying to prevent them from making those same mistakes and other mistakes that I've made. I try to be honest about that. And I come back to this principle: I say, never trade temporary pleasure for permanent regret. I said, there are going to be so many times in your life in different scenarios where you might in a moment do something because you think it's going to feel good in the moment to do this thing. And that one moment of pleasure could lead to regret that just stays.
Now, because of God's grace, you know, God wipes away every sin. Jesus paid for it on the cross. But even with the forgiveness and grace that God gives, there's still some baggage that we can carry because of our decisions. And I want to prevent them from carrying unnecessary baggage. And I'm saying the choices you're making right now are shaping the man you're going to be.
The choices you're making right now, even the ones that seem insignificant, from the friends you're hanging around to the words you speak to the way you treat other people, it's putting you on a path. It's going to lead in any number of directions. And if you make wise choices now, It's going to put you in a place of wisdom later on in life and just raising up the value of. Of the decisions they make because life is telling them, oh, you're young, you're a teenager, you do whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. And we're trying to give the opposite message: that not what you say, what you do right now, it matters so much.
That shapes who you are. Yeah, you know, this has been great. What a good reminder of some of the tasks we have as parents, and that is a big one to help our sons, particularly, learn how to respect women and girls. And I think it's a great reminder of something we need to do. Let me turn to you, the listener.
Focus on the family is here for you. We want you to have a rewarding and God-honoring relationship with your son. And when that's in place, concepts like respect come much easier. We have lots of great resources to help. You can take our parenting assessment.
It's free, it's online, and it's quick. It helps you to better understand those things you do well and those things that might need a little work. Another solid place to start is Dave's book, Raising Boys Who Respect Girls: Upending Locker Room Mentality, Blind Spots, and Unintended Sexism. And we'll make it easy for you when you give a gift of any amount. We'll send you a copy as our.
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Or look for the contact information and details in the show notes. And coming up next time, why it's so important for you to care for your soul. When I self-neglect, when I neglect my needs and I neglect what's going on inside of me, I feel so burnt out and empty. that the only person I can think of is myself. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
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