I'm gonna punch somebody in the face right now. Are you in a bad mood today?
Okay. I might be. How honest you want me to be. This is going to be really interesting because we've had a rough morning. You want to talk about anger, so I figured I might as well get angry and You know, display the emotion we're going to talk about.
I guess it's appropriate. But I remember, I think we'd been married about four years. We were in seminary, and we were wallpapering, we're flipping a house in seminary. I do not remember this. You don't?
I remember. I remember the house. Yeah.
So, what room?
So, we're in a bathroom, and I've been wallpapering all day and we're We were wanting to get it done quickly.
So you came in, you go, I'll help you. I'm like, great.
So, you're helping me. You've never done it before. And you start telling me what to do and how I'm doing it all wrong. I never did that. Totally did it.
So then You're like, just watch this, and you do it, and you. you rip the entire like this whole page of like not a page but a whole strip of wallpaper. And you are so mad. And somehow it was my fault. Of course.
And so I'm like, I looked at you. I'm like, I'm not even going to do this with you. You can do it all by yourself if you're going to be like that. How many times have you said that in our marriage? But that's.
I feel like that started this journey for about maybe four or five years. Of me being angry. Yes. And I know it all. And you're super chill when we were dating.
And so I'm like, who's this guy that I'm married to? But do you think that's true? That you've went through a real anger time? I know it's true because you've told me a hundred times. But you didn't feel it yourself?
I couldn't see it at the time. I mean, the time you walked into the garage in Michigan.
So, this is years later.
So, it didn't go away in a couple of years. And I literally think I had a pipe wrench. you know the big ol' Pipe wrench. And I'm hitting the lawnmower 'cause it wouldn't start. And you just stood there like.
What you know what I thought? I thought. What are our boys going to think of this? Like, this is kind of weird and scary, but funny too. Like, what are you doing?
And it did make me laugh because you weren't taking it out on any of us, but.
Well, the only reason we can laugh now Is because I addressed it. Yes. I think and again, that same house in Michigan in the kitchen. When you said something you wanted to, you, I don't even know what it was. You just said something about me and about our marriage.
And I blew up and you said, Do you remember this? You said, I'm never bringing stuff up anymore about our marriage because that's what you do every time. You just blow up. and as you were walking away, I mean, you couldn't have scripted this any better. I said, What are you talking about?
I don't blow up. And he just turned and looked at me like, exhibit A. And I think it was That moment was when I realized. Oh boy I think she's right. Why am I yelling?
Why am I hitting lawnmowers? Why am I speaking? You know, I remember. Angry. And again, In some ways, we were younger married.
I don't even know if we had kids yet, but we didn't understand what we try to tell younger couples now, or any couple getting married. You're bringing a whole bunch of baggage into your marriage. And your anger was one of them, but it was tied to something. Yeah, I had no idea. I knew there were.
We talk about this at the. Marriage getaway, the Family Life Weekend Remember, there are stuffers and there are blowers. You were more of a blower. I was a stuffer and then it exploded because I could stuff it all down. Yeah.
And I had no idea it was connected to anything.
So after that moment in the kitchen, I realized I do have an anger. Problem. It's explosive at times. I've never hit anybody. I don't even think I ever cursed.
No. I just was harsh and loud and mad and. Yeah, when you're kicking your lawnmower because it won't start, you might want to look in the mirror and say, What's this connected to?
So. You know, it's like an extension cord wrapped around you or plugged into you, and you gotta. You gotta Go down that extension cord and say, Where is this coming from? I found out mine was. What psychologists call chronic anger?
Yeah, because some of us, if our kids are little and you're frustrated and it's just you're in a hard season, that might just be displaced anger. You're just tired or you haven't eaten.
So it's not about the kids, but it's about something else that just recently happened or you're experiencing. But chronic anger explain what that is.
Well, it's interesting. What we're sort of talking about today is anger and forgiveness. That's where we're going to go. And if you're dealing with that, or your spouse is dealing with that, or one of your kids, I'm saying, listen up closely because this changed our marriage. Changed our legacy.
Yeah.
Getting a grip on this anger thing, which. I didn't know it at the time, had to do with forgiveness. Changed our marriage. It changed literally, our kids are different as men today because they had a dad who wasn't angry. Yeah.
Who got a grip on his anger? And there's a passage in the Old Testament. It's in the book of Genesis where it's the first murder in the Bible: Cain and Abel. Um you know, two brothers and um King is Angry because God sort of likes Abel's sacrifice better than his and There's an interesting passage where God comes to Cain. and stops him.
What are you doing here pulling this? Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jesus. We should keep this on video. She's trying to get a napkin. Are you getting angry right now? Yeah, Genesis 4: Cain is getting angry, and God stops him.
He hits a pause button, which I never realized. that God is giving Cain an out. Like there's a way to deal with your anger in a, in a good way.
So I think every time we get angry, we need to realize God. Ask us to stop and ask this question. Here's the question he asks: Says, So Cain was very angry and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
You got to love that. First of all, he's saying, Why are you angry? In other words, go down that extension cord and see if it's plugged into something. And our face usually reveals our emotions. Happy joy, you're smiling right now.
I mean, it's just, and you know, you drive by somebody on the road and they're angry and you see, you know, you know. And so he's like, Your face is downcast. And here's what God says to Cain: If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you, but you must rule over it.
What a You know, a clinic on what to do with your anger. You gotta stop, you gotta pause, you gotta ask this question. Why am I angry? Why is my face? Why is my body?
What is happening right here? And he's also saying this can lead to sin and really bad stuff. Or you can master it, you can rule it, you can get a grip on it. And actually, this anger, it's not sin to be angry, it's actually can be motivation to do something. Powerful to change something.
That's good anger. But if you don't get a grip on it, it could destroy your life, destroy your marriage, and destroy your legacy. And that scripture goes right along with Ephesians: don't let the sun go down on your anger. Don't get the devil a foothold. And it's exactly what you're saying.
God's saying, like, don't do it, don't do it. And that's so practical, of like that foothold. What do you think that means when God says don't give the devil a foothold? He's got ya. Yeah, he's holding you, he's going to keep you there for a long time.
So I. I went on a journey after you said that and realized, yeah, I had anger. Displaced is like, you know, anger that's displaced from something else happening in your life today or yesterday. You know, something happened at work and you come home and you're just sort of mean to your kids or your spouse. That's displaced.
Chronic Which I had never heard these terms before, but chronic anger is like displace in that it's coming from something else, not what's right in front of you. But it's deeper. It could be decades ago. It's like the guy or the gal who's seething. Like you never know what might set him off, like wallpaper.
Where a lawnmower is not starting. It's like, what is happening? It's like, and it's usually explosive.
So you're like, I can see why maybe you should have some anger, but not at that level. That should be like a... Flashing light on the dashboard of your soul saying you have chronic anger and it's plugged into something and you better figure out what and why and what you're gonna do about it. Yeah, even the wallpaper story, that was like a two. It should be like a two on the anger scale out of ten.
And yours was a 10. But that is a good way. Same with our teenagers. Part of that's hormonal, part of that's situational. But man, if there's just Constant anger.
It it's good to look deeper into it.
So, what was yours? What did you decide to do?
Well, again, we didn't realize we brought things. Baggage. Baggage, luggage, whatever you want to call it, indoor marriage. We sorta had this perspective. I mean, obviously mine's.
Obvious. Obviously, it's obvious. Two alcoholic parents, divorce, adulteries by my dad, death of my brother when I was seven. He was five. All that is in my past.
And guess what? In our family? We never I mean, ever talked about it. Ever talked about anything? Nothing.
Except the good. Nothing. I saw it. I'm a little boy. My dad's beating us.
It's just like. And nobody talks about it. I mean, my sister said she came home from high school when we moved to Ohio because now we're divorced, and mom has to. moved to where her parents are.
So let's start a new life and Pam, my sister, who is 10 years older, says she walks home from high school. I was seven.
So she was 17. And she says, a minister is walking out of our house and just says, Your brother just died. Your little brother. And PM said, I walked in a house, mom never mentioned it. We never talked about it.
I mean, that's just the way. He went to the funeral, nobody ever talked about it. Yeah, so again, I didn't think about any of that. I just thought that's how families operate. And not knowing that I'm going to bring all that into our marriage.
And so I had sort of stuffed that down. Never really saw my dad the rest of my life. A couple days a year, maybe he came.
So, there was a real fractured relationship there. You bring in sexual abuse and a performance from your family.
So, anyway, We bring those in. And the next thing I know, I'm As you pointed out, a very angry guy. And I really think. Chronic anger that we're talking about has a long extension cord. It's not.
Like displaced, something happened this morning, or maybe Uh 30 minutes ago. It's It could be a year ago. It could be 20 years ago.
So the extension cord is really long.
So you got to go back and say what it is. And I also believe this. Chronic anger has a long extension cord and it can't be released or dealt with unless you forgive. Mm. That's a bold statement.
I think there's somebody that's hurt you in your life. Or something that's happened. And You're going to have to make a choice to forgive that person, which makes no sense. It's irrational, they don't deserve it. And you're holding that.
And for me, it was my dad. How did you figure out it was your dad? Like, how did you trace it back to him of being your anger? Because some of us are thinking, this is me, I'm angry, and I don't know why. I don't know what the extension cord is tied to.
Yeah, I don't think I realized it either until the day you told me. I should just like, I'm liking this talk. You pointed out the anger, and then do you not remember? I do remember. You know, I noticed.
your dad would call periodically. And when you would talk to him.
Well, I said it. On a Sunday afternoon, watching our little boys rustle around on the floor in front of us. And I just turn to you and again, listen to the kind of things you're saying. They were probably seven, five, and two. Yeah, that's still about the age I was.
Yeah.
when dad left and again, I don't even realize I'm saying it, but Gotta stop and say, Why am I angry? All I said was, Hey, Can you believe my dad left me when I was that age, pointing at CJ, who's seven? And you said. You're going to need to forgive your dad. And I said, I forgave him years ago.
And then you said. You know, when he calls, you don't even talk. You just hold the phone out here and you say, okay, see you, and you hang up. You roll your eyes. You don't want to have a relationship with him.
You don't want to be around him.
So, there were some real symptoms saying. You've got a forgiveness issue with your dad. And so I started a journey. And it was a a journey I thought would be a week or two. Because I know Ephesians 4:32 says, just as God has forgiven you, forgive others.
So. We didn't deserve forgiveness from God. We are sinners who have rebelled against Him. We have turned our back on Him. We have spit on Him in many ways.
We have cursed His name. And He forgives us with His. His death on the cross. And just as he has forgiven us who do not deserve it. He says, I'm commanding you as a follower of me to forgive others who do not deserve it, whether it's your dad or your mom, your spouse, whoever it is.
And again, I thought, okay, I know this. I've preached this. I've taught this. I've lived Bible studies. How long did you think it would take?
A couple weeks. Maybe a month. I'm like, let's do this. You know, you're right. I haven't forgiven my dad.
And again, I didn't even haven't even connected the chronic anger to it at that point, but. How did you start the journey? Like, somebody's listening, thinking, okay, I think that's me. There's some things I haven't even dealt with. How do you start?
For me, I started with prayer.
Okay, God. I want to start this journey. How do I start this journey the next day? Again, I ask God to take me on a journey. The next day, a buddy runs into me at a grocery store.
What am I doing at a grocery store? Never am I in a grocery store. You never go to a grocery store. He sent me there with the list.
So I'm trying to find milk. I don't even know where it is. And I'm walking around. And Jay walks up to me. He goes, Dude, what are you doing here?
I'm like, you know, look, I got the list. Every guy that's got a list, his wife sent him there.
So there I am. And he goes, I can't believe you're here. I'm reading a book. It's in my car. I thought of you when I read this book.
I'm like, What is he? I'll be right back. He runs out of the car. He comes back in. He hands me a book by an author who is now dead.
But I think he's the premier writer on forgiveness, Lewis Smeads, S-M-E-D-E-S. In fact, we'll put a link to his book at familylifetoday.com in the show notes. Right, Bruce? Are they still selling it? Yeah, you can still get it.
It's called Forgive and Forget, Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve. We've had Lisa Turkhurst on her. Her forgiveness book is awesome.
So there's. There's a lot of great stuff, but back then. This is the book he handed me. And Jay had been reading it and he hands it to me. What did you think when he handed it to you?
I thought, I thought I had covered all this up, you know, because he's in my church, so he's heard me preach for years. Was he in your small group at that time? Yeah, and he's one of my in my anyway. It's like he could identify when he read it something I couldn't even see. Dave needs to forgive his dad.
He knew. Wow.
So he handed it to me, and I just prayed the day before God take me on a journey.
Well, I thought, okay, I better read this book. I mean, stop and think about that. I know. I'm never in a grocery store, and I'm there that day, and he's in the same 15 minutes he's there. And you're not the guy that's like, oh, You know, you're not the like miraculous kind of, but that's pretty incredible.
I knew I had to read this book. And guess what? I read it in a day. 'Cause it's not too big. It's not that long.
Yeah.
And I realized when I read it, okay, this may take a while. I didn't think it'd take years, but I knew it'd take more than a couple weeks. And then Lewis walks you through a four-step process that I did, and it sort of works. I don't remember exactly what the For words he used, I changed it because I preached on this over the years. to these four words, hurt, hate, healing, homecoming.
So The first thing Smeet says is you've got to connect. To how you been hurt. By this person. Let me read this opening paragraph in the book on hurt. If you live long enough, chances are you'll be hurt by someone.
you counted on to be your friend. And if you're like me, you may let that hurt fester and grow until it stifles your joy. When that happens, you have entered the first stage of forgiving. When you read that, what did you think? I thought, oh boy, I just couldn't see it.
He even asked this question: will we let our pain hang on to our hearts where it will eat away our joy? Or will we use the miracle of forgiving to heal the hurt we didn't deserve? And so he says, you go from, if you haven't dealt with that hurt, you go to hate.
Now, hate's a strong word. Let me read you his definition. He says, You cannot shake the memory. of how much you were hurt. And you cannot wish your enemy well.
You sometimes want the person who hurt you to suffer as you are suffering. Oh. Everybody does that. Every single person does that, don't we? Yeah.
I'm thinking of even church hurt. Like people in the church that have hurt you, and it feels so wrong, it feels justified to have these emotions.
Well, it always feels justified, whoever it is. You're right. Dad, mom. Yeah, you probably thought he. He doesn't deserve money.
He doesn't. He had affairs. He broke his vows. He didn't show up. You have every reason.
To to mask your hurt and feel the hate. Maybe hate a Too strong a word, but displeasure. I'm not going to wish him well. Are you kidding me? He doesn't deserve it, he hasn't earned it.
And I know there are people watching or listening right now. That's where they're living. With their dad or their mom or their spouse. I remember you said this: you lay in bed and are consumed by thoughts about them and wanting them to pay. Yeah.
Because they deserve it. Yeah.
And so Smead says you have to go on this spiritual, he calls it spiritual surgery. where God heals your heart from the inside out. And it's like this surgery, that spiritual nature, because you can't just get rid of those feelings. You've got to invite God into this. I had sort of stiffed arm God.
Okay. You know, I'm not going to let you in. And I'm gonna He doesn't deserve my forgiveness.
Okay, help me make sense of that. You don't want him in because you. Don't want to forgive you. They don't. And they know that God will want He wants you to.
Yeah, so you keep them out. But. Healing begins when you say, okay, God. I can't forgive. I need to forgive.
You've commanded me to forgive. I need you to give me the power. Mm. To forgive. I mean, Smeed says, he says, you will know that forgiveness has begun when you recall those who hurt you and feel the power to wish them well.
That's one of his definitions of forgiveness is you actually wish them well. you want well for their life. And for me, that took five years. Yeah.
The two-week journey. Became a four to five year journey. It was daily. It was.
Softening of my heart, calling my dad, letting him into my life again. Did you know that you had reached that point because you could wish him well? Yeah, but it took five years. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
After five years. I mean, the best quote in the book. And I remember dropping the book when I read this, literally dropped it. He said, when you forgive someone, you set a prisoner free. only to discover that you're the prisoner.
That's when I dropped the book because I was like, I thought I was locking him up. He doesn't deserve to be back in my life. He's made decisions that has. pushed him out of my life and I'm gonna make sure he stays out. And I thought I was locking him up.
And when I read that quote, I'm like, I'm locked up. I can't become the husband you deserve. The dad my kids need. The anger thing is connected to forgiveness. And it was the first time I started thinking.
So If I can choose, and it's a choice, it's not a feeling. If I can choose to forgive my dad, to wish him well. to give up my right to punish him. And he deserves to be punished. And what I didn't realize then, he had already been punished by my mom, by us.
He had gone through a lot of things. But Forgiveness means I'm going to give up that right. God's got it. God's. punish that sin on the cross.
God forgave me. I'm going to forgive him.
So it was a choice. And I didn't realize it, but when I forgave my dad. I think I became a man. I do too. But let me go back to that because.
You gave him access to your life, but some people are listening thinking. This person was so abusive or so narcissistic or so. harmful in many ways, maybe emotional. I don't want to give them access to my life. Can I forgive them with still placing boundaries around myself?
Forgiveness is not the same thing as reconciliation, there's two different things.
So, yeah, you can forgive someone and not have a relationship with them. They may be toxic. And you can still wish them well. Yeah, you can forgive them. You can love them.
You can say. But you're not going to be in my life. It's too toxic. You're not a safe person. But I forgive you and I actually wish you well and I hope you find Jesus.
But that doesn't mean you really and my relationship with my dad didn't become Awesome. But we did give him access. Yeah, it was better. He was not dangerous or he wasn't abusive. He was actually a Christian now.
He is a totally different man. Super kind. Yeah, very kind, very loving. I think he had immense regret. Me too.
He told me the biggest mistake of his life was divorcing mom. Um years later.
So Um so if you go back to the four steps Of forgiveness, according to Smeads, you got hurt. We talked about that. Hate. You've got healing. And then there could be, this is optional, a homecoming.
They may be dead.
So there's no homecoming. My dad was still alive.
So I'll never forget the day. We were playing the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I was down there with the Detroit Lions. I spoke to the at our chapel service and dad came to it because he lived in Florida. He was an airline pilot.
And back then, I didn't go on the team bus into the stadium. I went myself, and so dad drove me over to the stadium. We're sitting outside. I'll never forget, I'm looking at. The Tampa Bay Stadium, which is no longer there.
Now they're in a new stadium. But I said to my dad, Hey dad, I need to say something to you that I've Have it said a long time, if ever. I love you. And I forgive you. I'll never forget.
He turns to me and he goes. Forgive me. What the blank for? And it was just this, and I'm so glad Smeeds had said they may respond beautifully and you have a great hug, they may be dead, they may say what the blank for. I mean, I want to say, you have no idea.
And he just sort of looked at me like he didn't really. And guess what? Forgiveness isn't about the other person. It's about you. I was free.
Whether he received it or not, some homecomings are beautiful.
Some are sort of like that. Our homecoming happened over the next several years. It got better. I wonder if it's not about them, it's about you. Yeah.
I wonder what he would have said had you asked him that. or told him that years later. I think he'd responded different. I think you knew. Over years he Yeah, he did now.
He realized. When he told you his greatest regret was divorcing your mom. Right. That was later. Yeah.
So yeah, I think you're right. Whew and you did, let me just say. Your anger didn't go away overnight. But eventually You didn't have that explosiveness. Chronic anger's gone.
It is gone. I'm not saying you don't get angry. I don't get angry. We get angry. We were angry this morning.
Yeah.
I was angry when I walked in here because you left my iPad in the car, and it's 90 degrees in Florida, and I got to walk a half mile to get it, maybe 100 yards. But I mean, and you got to deal with that anger, but chronic is a deep-seated that's connected to forgiveness. And I'm just saying, there's somebody listening or watching today. What would you say to them? Start the journey.
You would. Take the first step. Say God. I need to forgive. So and so.
Will you help me start the journey? You know, before we continue, let me say this. At Family Life, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a Family Life partner, you can make that happen. And I don't know if you realize this, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.
And that's a pretty cool deal. And we also want to send you exclusive updates, behind the scenes access, and an invitation to our private partner community, which is also pretty cool.
So join us and let's reach marriages and families together. And you can go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button to join today. That's familylifetoday.com. Let's think through what we would say as a spouse is listening to this. They're thinking, this is for my spouse.
They're angry. I know that they've got issues they haven't dealt with in the past. How do I approach them? Because it's such a sensitive. Topic.
What would you say? Because you said it to me. I think pray before you talk about it. I don't think I prayed much about it. I wasn't unkind in how I said it.
Um But kind of observe them. I think I would be very gentle and ask God: Lord, help shape the words that I'm going to use. Help me to have the right timing, is kind of our book. When should I say it? How should I say it?
And God will give you wisdom. James 1 says, Ask and he will give you wisdom generously. Ask the timing, ask the way to do it. But you're a team, you're one, and just say, hon, I feel like I'm wondering that's a good way to say it. I'm wondering if maybe you know I'm seeing some anger in you, or some depression in you, because even depression is anger toward turned inward.
So I'm seeing some things in you, and I'm wondering: do you think it could be like a forgiveness issue? Have the conversation. If I would have asked you that. You would have probably said. No.
Yeah, but then later I might have thought about it. I would say to the person that's wondering if your anger. is a little bit deeper than you think, you ask the question. Ask your spouse, ask some guys in your life, say, hey. Do you think I I think I could have an anger thing that's a little deeper than it should be.
Or do you think I have somebody in my life I need to forgive? That's courage to ask somebody that question for sure and say, Man, I want you to help me identify that and then start the journey. I mean, that journey. changed our life. Totally changed our lives.
Changed every second of every day of our life. And you're a different dad because of it. Yeah.
I mean, I really don't think I passed that on to our kids. I don't either. Because I dealt with it before they were like three or four years old. Yeah.
It was early.
So. You got to deal with it. The stakes are high. And as a spouse, be on their team. Say, maybe I have that issue too.
If I'm blind to that, let me know. And maybe even listen to the podcast together or send it and say, let's talk about this. And then to say, how can I help you? Like, I want to go on that path with you. Maybe we both read Sneed's book, or Lisa Turker's book, is really good on this, too.
It's called Forgiving What You Can't Forget. Yeah, we'll put a link. To three books. All right, you ready? In our show notes at familylaftoday.com, we'll put a link for Lewis Smead's book, Forgive and Forget.
For at least it's her curse book. forgiving what you can't forget. And for David Ann Wilson's book, Vertical Marriage, because we do a whole section. What you, as Turtles, talked about. do a whole chapter on anger and forgiveness so that might help you as well.
Well, I'm really glad you were brave enough to go on the journey because you're a different person and Jesus has set you free from it. He'll set you free too. Why don't you pray just for the people that are like, is this me? Lord, I pray that.
Somebody listening or watching today.
Something Yeah, pricked in their heart like, hmm. I think I have some issues. They're talking to me. Lord, I pray for that person, that husband, that wife, or son, or daughter, that. They would have the courage.
to step into it. Uh don't avoid it anymore. Open that piece of luggage. And say, God, will you step into this area and heal me?
So that you can heal us. Give me the power. Forgiven people forgive people. And I'm forgiven, but I feel like I can't forgive.
So, God, we can't do it without your Holy Spirit power.
So, I pray for the Holy Spirit to give power to people that have never been able to forgive. You take them starting right here, right now, on a journey to get to complete forgiveness and set them free. To be the man, woman, the husband, the wife, the mom, the dad. The grandparent that you've called them and created them to be.
So we give them to you. and invite you to do your Work yeah. In Jesus' name. And just a last little thing as we were praying, as you were praying, I was thinking about. the person that's been gone through a really hard divorce.
And maybe you're in a new marriage or a blended family, and you haven't forgiven your former spouse. Man, maybe this is a journey that God wants to take you on because He, you don't want to take that anger or that unforgiveness into this new relationship.
So I hope we'll all go on that journey together. Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button. Yeah, and we'd like you to subscribe.
So, all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word. Like and subscribe.
Look at that, you say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.
