How to Find God's Grace When You're Beyond Overwhelmed - Abbie Halberstadt

How do you make this shift? The perspective shift from this is hard, but it's not bad. There are people who don't have Jesus. They have some self-discipline, they have systems in place, they get outside help, they get organized, and then you can function. But the joy?

The joy comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a fruit of the Spirit. You can't do it without God's Word and His Holy Spirit.

So, I don't know whether to stand up and cheer or to bow down for our guests today. Because let me just give you a little bit. Can you imagine having 10 children? Homeschooling and two sets of twins right there. Just that.

Nope. Like, Abby, I've already put you on a pedestal. Like, what in the world? But you're writing books too? And you're a fitness.

There's just so many things. Go ahead, fitness instructor. You didn't even finish that. Yes, a fitness instructor. And we just found out a pickleball, like 4.5, maybe.

I don't know. Not 4.5 yet. That's the goal. That's the goal. Yeah.

But we have. 4.1. That's, you know, we're getting there. We have Abby Halberstadt with us today, and she's written this great book: Hard is Not the Same Thing as Bad. The whole title is intriguing.

And so, Abby, Dave, and I are just going to sit here. We're going to put you on this pedestal. Like, I always sweat when I'm on like podcasts. And what a great way to start, Abby. Let's tell people about your perspiration.

My body just is like released the hounds, no matter how not nervous I am, because I'm not nervous right now, but it's just like a physiological. I feel the same. The thought of you putting me on a pedestal like this. That's so uncomfortable. I'm sure it was.

I couldn't help myself. Anybody that has a set of twins, but you have two sets of twins. I do. And let me just tell you, I did not think I wanted them.

So our history with fertility is that my mom, who is. I mean, put it on a pedestal. She's the one. She's amazing. Um, she has two whole children.

People always assume I come from a big family. I don't. I have one older brother who's four years older than I am, but my mom would have happily welcomed any children that the Lord had for her. And his answer was: two children and a lot of miscarriages.

So I think that that is a conversation that needs to be had because people, when they talk about openness to the Lord's sovereignty, especially in the area of fertility, assume that they're probably going to have 20 kids. But what if the answer is the exact opposite? You are happy to have as many as the Lord gives you and the Lord says the number is two. And so, um It's It's interesting when people Make these assumptions because if you have 10 kids, it must be because you were like gunning for some sort of record, right?

Well, I didn't have any point of reference for this. And you didn't start your married life thinking, I'm gonna have 10 kids. No, I don't. I don't think most people do, if anybody does. You know, that's a pretty foreign concept.

I will say that on my second day with my husband, I had been engaged before, and one of the sore points was birth control and fertility and things like that. It's not why we broke up, but it was like. It was a thing. Struggle. Yeah.

And I remember on my second date with my husband, I literally told him, like, I will not be using chemical birth control. It's not good for my body. I don't want to do it. And, um, And I I think that when Proverbs 3, 5, and 6 talks about submitting all your ways to the Lord, Trust the Lord with all your heart. And lean not on your own understanding.

In all your ways, acknowledge him, and he will keep your path straight. Make your path straight. I think that's even more important. He will make your path straight. that that includes fertility and a lot of people kind of section that out because It's so life-altering.

You know, you have so much commitment and responsibility when you have this little life come into your life. Your whole life changes. And change everything. Exactly. And so.

I um I dropped the bomb of like, I'm not the least bit interested in altering my hormones, and that could mean like six whole kids, you know? That's what we were thinking. When we talk about like not expecting to have 10 kids, that was like the max my brain could even fathom because I think that's about the largest family that I knew, you know? Yeah, I'm still back. You did this on the second date.

Yes.

Well it's happening. And you think wow, this could go somewhere. I better start. 100%. Yes.

So, so. My husband was not a Christian when I first met him. And if you had told me that I was going to even consider dating and/or much less marrying, A man who had not been a believer for a significant amount of time was steeped in God's word because I distinctly remember the moment at five years old when I was listening to Bullfrogs and Butterflies with my best friend Rhonda. And there was a song that came on about, you know, heaven and accepting Jesus into your heart, you know, kind of those colloquialisms we use as children, and declaring the Lord. You know, Jesus Lord of your life and recognizing that you're a sinner.

And I remember all these things. I remember my life, yes, very distinctly. Like it is probably the most distinct memory of my childhood. Really? And that is the moment that I gave my life to the Lord.

So to meet a man who wasn't even a Christian yet and to even consider dating him was. not something I would have ever expected. Or thought was even possible. Yeah. Um.

And so We knew each other. We played sports together because we were both really athletic. I beat him in ping pong a couple of times. Oh, yeah, you did.

So we had this rivalry going, but very friendly and flirty, of course. And I was the coordinator for our Twenty Somethings group at church. And I would send out these emails. And because I love words, they were never just like we're meeting, you know, at The Mexican restaurant on Friday night. It was like puns and riddles and goofy.

I was such a nerd. But he loved it because he he's a software developer by trade, but he's also built two houses with his own hands for us. And um, He also won like lit crit in high school at UIL and was the valedictorian at his at his school, which was 14 whole people, but still that's he was the best of the 14 people academically.

So he's just a Renaissance man, and I was really drawn to that.

So, yes, as of the second date, neither one of us were. Flitty types, and we knew this could go somewhere. And I needed him to be either scared or aware of what he was getting into.

So, how did he come to Christ? Did you lead him to Christ? No, although I would love to think that just by having strong convictions and his being attracted to that, that he was, you know, at least kind of geared more that direction. No, he. He We all have some level of common grace, obviously.

Not all are saved, of course. And that is the tragic reality of the separation from Christ that is sin. without repentance.

So I feel like some of us, in some ways, have more common grace than others. My husband was full of integrity. He was kind. He was hardworking.

Sounds like a good man. Yes.

But of course, there was no one righteous, not even one.

So he wasn't righteous, but he was what the world would call, quote unquote, good. And to the point that he had had girlfriends in college who had wanted to stay over, and one did literally stay the night because she had car trouble, and he rolled up a comforter in the bed between them. Which is so unusual. Right, because he had this conviction that he would be cheating on his future spouse if he had sex with someone before marriage. For an unbeliever, that's kind of crazy.

It is kind of crazy. And so I feel like, even though we are all depraved and the heart of man is desperately wicked, we know that very clearly from scripture, that the Lord was kind to give Sean. Insight. His mom had taken him to church. He had some knowledge of Christianity.

He had a little bit of biblical exposure. And ultimately how he described it. was that He had all of the knowledge. without the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. And so it wasn't this huge leap.

It was like. Here's the reason.

So he was a deist. He believed that there was a God who had designed everything, but then he had just stepped back and wasn't interacting with mankind.

So when he came to the realization, because the Lord drew his heart to him, that no, I am a deeply personal God who loves you and who chose you before the foundations of the world were laid, it's just like all of it clicked into place and made sense. And so the leaps that he made in terms of conviction and maturity and growth were just incredible from very, very quickly. That's really cool. Yeah. And I love that you stated this is what I'm, this is what's important to me in a marriage.

Yeah. Because I think that. When we're dating, we try to please the other person so much that we bend and we contour to whatever they want because we're so desperate for the relationship. Yeah. It shows your desperateness for Jesus and to have a marriage that's reflective of that.

Well, and I feel like the Lord had already prepared my heart because I can be a people pleaser. I do not bend on things of conviction. The Lord has given me that. I just won't. But and that's no credit to me.

I mean, I think he's gifted me the personality for that. But when it comes to those things where you just want people to like you and it's not necessarily like a moral thing kind of thing, I will definitely Change my personality or whatever, can tend to do that. I think we all can. But because I'd had that previous relationship, which The Lord works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Then, even though that was really hard at the time, and one of the hardest years of my life up to that point.

I really felt like it had given me this rock-solid, this matters. Um So much to me. And I want this to be and I think it I mean, I think that every Christian. Should go to the Lord. With every aspect of their lives, including their fertility, instead of defaulting to some sort of cultural standard where it's just like, I mean marriage counselors, we were required to do marriage counseling with our church.

And they were very sweet people. And they gave us lots of good advice. But one thing we found really interesting, and we just smiled and tried not to look at each other like this, was that one of their biggest pieces of advice was: don't have children too soon. Mm-hmm. I don't know who gets to decide that, especially when we're talking about the Lord being the opener and closer of the womb and the one who gives and takes life.

And so we got in the car and we just kind of looked at each other like, we are gonna disappoint them so hardcore if the Lord wills, you know, kind of thing. Back to the twin thing. You said, oh, how soon did you have your first baby? One week before our first anniversary.

Okay. Which I will say that we thought God's timing was incredible. Because we're doing nothing to prevent. Yeah. And.

Uh, we don't get pregnant for three months, which turns out I'm fertil.

So that was kind of a miracle. And I was teaching high school Spanish. Um, I graduated at 19 and started teaching high school Spanish at 19 and was teaching kids that were like my age. I was teaching seniors. What do you mean you graduated at 19?

I was homeschooled, and um, my mom, when I was 14, 15 years old, said basically, because my older brother had also done this, my dad got an associate's degree at a community college. My older brother was 14, and she was like, You can go get a lot of your basics out of the way, just go with your dad, you know, because as long as you have scores to get into the college, they I think the I don't remember the cutoff age, but it's something like 13 or 14. And so my brother had done it. My mom has her master's degree in English. She's very academic.

She's taught at the collegiate level. She knows all the things. And she homeschooled my brother and me. And so she told me at like 14 or 15, you can either do your last two years of high school and then basically repeat them in college, because there wasn't nearly as much dual credit or clapping options. I'm not going to say how many years ago.

I don't care if anybody knows what I'm like, what's the math on that? Like 25 years ago, as there are now. And so she said, you can redo it. Or you You can just Jump into college. And I was like, I'll do that.

I'm not doing anything twice that I don't have to do, you know? And so I started at 15, finished at 19, and started teaching high school Spanish. And so I was in my. At 22, I was in my third or fourth year of teaching. And I think fourth year of teaching.

I ended up. Announcing the pregnancy, like way into it. I'm sure people, I mean, people were like, Well, she's looking a little thick, but I didn't say anything until like 20 weeks because you can kind of get away with that with your first baby. And I remember the guidance counselor, who is a kind, godly woman that goes to our church now, and she probably has no memory of saying this whatsoever, saying when we announced the pregnancy, oops, accidents happen. Mm.

Because she assumed Because our culture tells us this is the right way to do it. Because we had marriage counselors who said, don't have kids too soon, it'll ruin your marriage. that we couldn't possibly have meant to. Or been open to having children so early in our marriage. And I remember just like my mouth falling open and the people pleasing thing.

I didn't say anything back to her. I just laughed awkwardly because I didn't know what to say and I was 22 years old, you know? And I think I was 23 by that point.

So here I am thinking the Lord's timing is amazing because I'm not due until the last week after finals. And I'm like, look at that. I'll have the whole summer if I want to come back. And I did a couple more years full time or part time until I quit to stay home with my kiddos.

So Just the different perspective. Like, you worked that out great. I didn't have to leave in the middle of the year. I didn't inconvenience anybody. And sure enough, I had him one week after my last final and one week before our first anniversary.

Did it ruin your marriage? No, it did not. In fact, ruin our marriage.

Well, and I think the reason I could tease you when I first met you is because she does that to every guest. Yeah. I don't think I've ever done that. I don't think she's ever done it. The reason I could do it is because you're incredibly real and honest in your book.

You can tell that by the title. Hard is not the same thing as bad.

So you're saying, It's Raising kids can be hard. Oh, 100%. And you have 10 of them. And you don't shy away from saying, like, yes, it's hard. Yeah, it is.

And so that's the thing that I've appreciated that you haven't put yourself on the pedestal. I I mean If I ever put myself on a pedestal, I pray God knocks me off right away. Exactly. And I think the audacity to say, Follow me rather than follow Christ. Like, please, never, Lord.

I, I, my, one of my best friends and mentors, Jennifer Flanders. Has 12 children. And that's not why we're best friends. We have completely different personalities, and there isn't some. Large Family Moms Unite club.

We got a competition going on here. Are you going for three more? No, she is 17 years my senior, and her three youngest are the same age as my three oldest. And but she is just such a wonderful source of wisdom. She's the de facto editor of all my books.

Like she gets first shot at all of them and just is such a good sounding board. But she says, I pray this prayer every day: Lord, take me home. Before you ever let me betray you or like blaspheme your name, even unintentionally in any way. And it's a scary prayer because she's literally like, take me out. Yeah.

Disgrace your name. Yeah. Or make it about me. Yes.

And we're living in a culture that it's really easy to make about us. And you're not. You're putting all the glory and all the tension onto Jesus.

Well, there's definitely a lot of people. And you can at least, like, I'm thinking, you know, 10 kids. Is she gonna be like frumpy and Let me get rid of this stereotype.

Well, every woman that's had fun you're like, Well, it does change things and you're gorgeous, but you're incredibly humble too.

So it's really fun. I mean, in some ways you do in some ways think that could be happening 'cause you don't have time. Yeah, yourself, yeah, that can happen for sure. I think that we make time for what's important to us. And if you were to walk into my home at 8 a.m.

on a homeschool morning, you would think I was incredibly frumpy, and I'm okay with that.

So, obviously, I'm going to put on some makeup and a cute outfit to come to something like this. But on any given day, I'm wearing workout clothes all day with zero makeup and frizzy hair. Of course, but I love, I think that. I think that we as women when we're in this together and we can hear somebody that's homeschooling, that's raising kids, that's writing books, you're like, man, she's learned a few things. I want to hear what you have to say.

Well, and I think that, that is true. I think that we need to keep all the glory and honor to Jesus, but not gatekeep.

some things that we have picked up along the way as A way of false humility. Like, oh, one of my least favorite things for seasons moms to say is, I know less than when I started. I know, I understand the concept. You know what they mean? I do know what they mean, but I don't know that everybody else does.

Because I hear from lots of young moms that are like, Would somebody please step up? And how Have the confidence and the courage to say, the Lord has grown me. And here are some really helpful things that are principles. You don't have to do them like I do them, you don't have to apply them the way that I apply them. Go with the interest and the personality and the strengths.

As well as addressing the weaknesses that the Lord has given you. And don't try to copy anybody else's particular application of the principles. But my goodness, don't shy away from saying the Lord has grown me in patience and self-discipline. Because how depressing would it be to say I've given 20 years of my life to parenting and I'm worse off than when I started? And we should be different.

We should be better. 100%. Not better in that we have it totally figured out, but better in that, man, we've grown, we've learned. It's called sanctification. That's a process.

You guys are a lot alike. Do you think so? I feel like I could go in the production booth and just let you two talk because what am I doing here? But no, even on our first date. And her dad was my high school coach.

I was the quarterback. Her brother's my center.

So I knew the family really well. She was the younger sister, like you said earlier, not on the air, but out of the bleachers, catching foul balls, and she was the better athlete than all her brothers. And brothers, if you're listening, you know that's true. You know that's true. And they were all college athletes.

But our first day, we were sitting by the Finley Reservoir in Finley, Ohio. And we're three years. I'm older, three years, and I say to her, I'm going to my senior year in college. She's. still a senior in high school.

And I just said, so what do you want to do with your life? And she just looks at me and she goes, I'm following Jesus. Whatever he calls me to do, I'm in. He's called me to something, and if a guy's going to be a part of it, whatever, but I don't think it has anything to do with a guy, that's where I'm going. I'm like.

I'm marrying this girl. I mean, it was like nobody had ever said, like you did on your second date, this is a conviction of mine. It's important to me whether you like it or not. This is who I am. That's that is That's appealing to men and to uh To your kids, that you are a woman that knows who you are, knows who God is, knows what God calls you to do, and you're going to live that out.

And you're not perfect in it, but you have strong convictions because of the Word of God and our relationship with God. Yeah, He's the one that gives us that. Let me ask you, because. With this book, you're getting into all kinds of areas that you've grown in. But let's start because we've already hit that young moms, because it can be shocking for a lot of us as young moms.

I remember saying to my dad, because I was in sports my whole life too, I remember, I think I had a. I had a colicky baby, the first one. Yeah. And I remember saying to him, because he says, So how is this? How are you doing?

Like, Dead. I could go out and run a marathon today with no training, and it would be easier than what I'm doing right now at home. I'm so over my head, I do not know what I'm doing, and I'm not getting sleep, and I'm not liking Dave, and I'm blaming Dave. What about that mom that's in that right now where everything feels overwhelming because you've been there a lot? I mean, she thinks what your title is.

This is hard and it's bad. Right. Yes.

Okay. So part of that is human nature. I think we naturally equate something difficult that we're going through, especially when it's unpleasant, which I know. I mean, There are difficulties like I love to lift weights. Lifting weights is difficult, especially when you get to that point where you're in progressive overload and like your muscles are just screaming at you.

But I like it too. Being screamed at by a colicky baby, nobody likes that. Like, there's not, you're not thinking about it. There's no control. There's no control.

You cannot make it stop. Which, one thing that I always say. And those who have ears to hear do hear it. If you say you want to be like Christ, and you are a mother, Be grateful that you have been given a built-in opportunity to become more like him instead of looking at it as a how do I get through to the easier part of this, and that's what we do, can't wait till this stage is over. Yes, exactly, and there's so much you miss, and people are like, Well, I mean, I guess most people aren't like, Well, easy for you to say because I have done it so many times, so I must know at least a little bit wherever I speak.

But Um What I say to those women. Is that there is no scriptural support for saying that the current struggle that you're in now? Gets to define anything for you in terms of your relationship to the Lord, that we are called to suffer well. That we are told by Jesus that we will experience hardship, not that we will sort of be inconvenient sometimes, or certainly not that we will be able to manifest all good things for ourselves and end up with only rainbows and butterflies. But instead, he literally tells us.

In this world, you will have trouble. But that would just be depressing to end there. And instead, he follows it up with immediately, not. Wallow in it, consider yourself a victim, or grouse to your girlfriends constantly, but be of good cheer, which feels like such a slap in the face when you're suffering. Yeah.

But it comes directly from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

So we have to then keep going, which is, for I have overcome the world. And so you have to find the practical ways that that actually means something to you.

Somebody's saying right now, like, how do I be of good cheer? When I haven't slept, I have a opening chapter. I mean, you describe it so well. I don't know what her name was, crying in the car sand, crawling out of the car sand. I mean, that right there, it takes us back to that day because I'm like, that is being a mom.

Right. So. To touch on the thing you said about twins way back when you're like, you know, one set of twins, oh my goodness, that's enough. And here I am thinking I'm open-handed, but not having a clue what the Lord's going to do. The one little caveat I was pulling aside was: do not give me multiples, Lord.

You said that? Oh, yes. Like, I was like, Lord Jesus. And, and, Of, you know, I'm 22 years old and I'm like, twins sound miserable. Like, that just sounds, like, how would you ever do anything?

Right. But feed them and change diapers and never sleep, which did not, I mean, was somewhat my reality, but somewhat not. Evie and Nola, my first set of twins, because I have two, were sets of twins. And this isn't because you had any hormones, any kind of artificial. No, in fact, the Lord has such a great sense of humor.

So both of my sets of twins, as far as we know, are identical.

So, and that's more unusual than fraternal twins. Yeah. And they are a gift.

So they do not come from heredity. They do not come from. I mean, I guess something could happen with hormones, but we weren't taking any. And they, it's where you have one baby splits into two. And So I think it's one in a thousand births or something like that.

But science has never found any connection between A particular woman and having identical sets of twins.

So to have one, you're pretty random and you're unusual. To have two sets, That are both identical. And the way that we've never had them genetically tested, but there's only one placenta both times.

So your body only prepared for one baby.

So that's a pretty good scientific indication. It's very unusual. And then we actually had another twin pregnancy right after our first twin pregnancy, and we lost my son Theo's. identical twin brother because there was only one placenta. To something called vanishing twin syndrome, which we would have never even known there was another baby.

But after having a set of twins that we didn't find out until 19 weeks, we were like, We're having an early sonogram and seeing like what's going on in there.

So we can just be mentally prepared, right? And we found the sonographer was able to see a shadow where the baby had been even measure the shadow and know that the baby had died three weeks before. And so I've actually been pregnant with identical twins three separate times and two live births of both of them surviving. And my husband did some sort of crazy math, and it was like at one in 27 million chance. according to science.

But I just really feel like it was the Lord's way of saying If you say I'm in control, You better mean it.

So, my first set of twins were dream babies. They slept through the night by 11 weeks. How many kids had you already had by 11? They were my numbers four and five.

Okay. And I distinctly remember lying on my husband's chest that night in the dark. The day that we found out that it was twins and saying five kids is a lot of kids. Like the reality of that, and my oldest was five. Um come on.

So yeah, what the oldest kids were five, what? Uh five, three, and one. Yeah. I didn't know that you were gonna time that. Buy two.

Buy two. Who knew?

So Then, and my girls, it was a lot of work because there were a lot of kids and two babies at the same time. But we were making it work, and then they hit toddlerhood and. My one particular girl who's the younger of them by eight whole minutes, Magnolia Claire, we call her Nola, who is just a force to be reckoned with. She is such a precious girl. That's such a great name.

Really? Which one? It's NOLA. Oh, I love it. It's so unusual.

Like, it's very rare. I love that. And she just was, and seeing how deeply she feels things and like how she charges through life now in such a productive and cool way, you're like, okay, this was where this was going. But at three years or two, two and three quarters is like when they went off the deep end. My husband was on like a wilderness trip with his dad out of cell phone range.

And that just was the moment where they started screaming in the car. They had sensory issues. You know, everything just bothered them. Everything. And I think the older one, Evie, just kind of went along with her sister, but they just tag teamed it to such an exhausting degree.

So you're in the car and they're screaming. Every single time. And I was a fitness instructor and I taught four to five days a week. Which was my outlet, right? Of course.

I did that too. You drive in, you get everybody. I mean, it's for your sanity. It is a it's for. your sanity but also just getting like Five and at this point, six kids because I've had another baby because they're toddlers now.

Out the door, everybody has to have shoes. Everybody needs to be clothes and sort of in their right mind enough to like walk to the car and buckle the car seats, right? And we would drive down, we had kind of a long driveway. And I recruited, I talk about this in the book. I recruited the kids.

Like we would help distract them, and I would be almost at the end of the driveway, and I wouldn't hear any like spitting noises behind me yet. And I'd be like, Lord, maybe today, maybe today's the day that I don't get screamed at for the next 30 minutes and everybody else like loses a little bit of their hearing. And then you'd hear this and it would get louder and louder and louder and just they would both take off. Oh my word. What kind of vehicle did you have?

At that time, I was in a Honda Odyssey with every single seat filled. It was so crammed. And then somewhere in the midst of that, we switched to a 12-passenger van, but we were still probably pretty on top of each other.

So, who was trying to get out? Didn't you say that they could get out of their car seats? Yeah, the one, the situation that I describe in the beginning of this book is Nola on the way home, and I had taken just her so that everybody could get a break. She was wonderful, but also just a lot. And so, I'm like, you're just coming with me to the gym.

My husband was home. The rest of the kids were home. And on the way home, she started getting upset about the buckles. It was a, it was a sensory thing to a very great extent, but like, you can't do anything about it because they have to be in a car seat, you know? And so she is contortioning herself out of this seat.

I don't even know how. And I pulled over like five times, re-buckled it. No, you didn't. Cinched it down to where she ended up having like marks on her neck because she was writhing around so hard and I had to like. Like, get it tighter than normally.

Because I was afraid she was going to be out and like climbing over the front seat, and she will not calm down. And it's just. I remember I would just knock my head against the window. Just bonk my head against the window. It was like almost like a sensory thing for me to be like, I can't throw things and scream.

So. This is what you're talking about when it's hard. Yeah. And some people would say, that sounds bad. Yeah.

But you're saying, no, I've learned a lot. Oh, my word. If I... Had not gone through that with the twin girls, some of the things my future children did would have turned me inside out, just like they did. And instead, I'm like, What you got?

There's not two of you. You know, until there were again. Because my last two, my four-year-olds, are also twin boys. Yeah, what are the ages, the age span? Like your youngest is how old?

They are four-year-old twin boys, and then it's all the way up to 19.

Okay. So I had 10 kids in 14 years. Yeah. That's true. A person's shift.

How do you make this shift? The perspective shift from this is hard, but it's not bad, or that I'm losing my mind and I'm screaming and yelling, and I just can't find any joy. I still have the head banging against the window. It helped. I don't know why it helped, but it helped.

You can't do it without God's word and His Holy Spirit. I agree. I do think that there are people who don't have Jesus that can have like that common grace thing. Like they have some self-discipline, they have systems in place, they get outside help, they get organized, and then you can function. But the joy.

The joy comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a fruit of the Spirit. But, Abby, like, how are you doing that? People are like, wait, you've got all these kids under five. How are you?

How do you have God and the Holy Spirit? Like, when do you have time for Jesus?

Well, do you think He left the room? No, I know He didn't, but we feel like He's left the room sometimes. We are told to pray without ceasing. And I have prayed so many, just talking, my kids walk in on me just talking to myself, but I'm really talking to the Lord while I am doing laundry, while I am wiping bottoms, while I am bathing children. And I.

Of course, there's the ongoing conversation, but I also like to teach some of my younger children that have struggled with anger or like sensory issues something I call bullet prayers, where it is just a simple like shot to heaven, like, Jesus, I don't have any patience. Can you please give me some patience right now? He usually just gives you more opportunities to practice when you ask things like that. And you'll pray that out loud. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really good for your kids to see you talking to the Lord, to see you desperate for the Lord rather than just desperate. But I always tell moms that there is this misconception about reading our Bibles: that we need to get up at 5 a.m. We need to have color-coordinated pens. We need to have hot coffee.

We need to have worship music playing in the background. Special chair. A special chair and a special blankie. And listen, if we have to have all those things and we got to remember where they all are, because you know the kids scattered around the house at some point in your special spot that they don't, they're like. special so I want to play with it.

If you have to have all those things, you'll never do it. Or the baby's not sleeping in 5 a.m. is a ridiculous idea. You know, like, don't do that to yourself. Read God's Word aloud to your children.

Put it on.

Songs that have pure scripture in them in the kitchen while you make breakfast. What are some of those? Seeds family worship is a great option. I mean, Steve Green's Hide God's Word in Your Heart, I think, is, or Hide It in Your Heart, is old school, but it's scripture. Galley Holcomb has some too that are straight scripture.

Shane and Shane does a whole lot of scripture. Find those good, theologically sound, scripture-based resources that don't require more effort from you. Say, Alexa, play Shane and Shane, instead of Alexa, play baby shark for the 456th time. And So, it takes a little bit of intentionality, or like memorizing God's word with your kids. I know people that do like motions and songs, and that's amazing, and I love it.

I. Don't. I say Okay. Do everything without complaining or arguing.

Now, you guys say, do everything without complaining or arguing, you know. Um, give thanks in all circumstances, give thanks in all circumstances, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus, for this is well, and we just keep repeating it until we've got it. We've memorized whole chapters together that way. Wow, and my mom did the same for us. And I think we overthink things, and we also think that certain things don't count, and they have to look a certain way, and they have to look a certain way.

But our family Bible reading, which my husband leads now, uh, looks a little bit like a circus sometimes. Like, our, we have an very open planned house on purpose because we want to be able to be all in a big room together, and there's a lot of us.

So, the kitchen leads into the living room, and I'm in the kitchen making eggs and making a bunch of noise. And hey, can you say that again? I didn't hear you. And the little boys are asking me questions, and I'm shushing them, and the older kids are like half awake. And because you know, I didn't want to get up at 7:30 and do Bible reading.

They like Bible reading, and they actually, I think. People, my older children all read their Bibles on their own in the evenings, and people always ask me how I quote got them to do that, and I didn't. I actually, we don't require that of them, and um. I am so grateful that they have chosen that. And they're not on screens where T you don't have T V on in the evenings?

Oh, sometimes if we watch movies together as a family or something. But this is like when they go to bed.

Okay. So they go they read the Bible. Yeah, and and and like an older one will read it to her younger sisters and that kind of thing.

So they're all in the same 'cause we actually have a boy wing and a girl wing in our house. Um I mentioned that my husband built houses and his dad Owned a construction company and he worked with him. And so they have, and they work together to build two of our houses completely from scratch, like everything, electrical, plumbing, siding, framing, flooring. Everything. And so we built a boys' wing, which has four bunks in it, and then a room in front that can be converted to a bedroom if we need to, and a girl's wing that has four bunks in it.

So they'll sit in there and read their Bibles at night. And sometimes they're way too late. And I'll be like, What are y'all doing? Up there, like, we haven't read our Bibles yet. I'm sure they skip some nights, but it's not about legalism.

It's about the heart of thinking that God's Word is living and active and it never returns void and it has everything we need for life and godliness.

So, of course, We prioritize it. And of course, we use it as our foundation for everything. Let me ask you because one of the things it stopped me as I was reading it is that you said.

Okay. You don't even focus that much on all the stuff the little kids are, like, you know, the hard part of it. because it doesn't seem as hard any more. You're l is is that kind of what you said, something like When I think about like the younger kids, that's not even the thing now. I'm more focused on here, and like it's nothing.

Does it get easier now that you've had these kids and the little ones are like, this is just this, you've learned so much about it? Yes, and no. I would say that interestingly enough, my last two have probably been my clingiest, probably just because they haven't had a baby to kick them out of the baby status, you know? Yeah. And so they have not been.

I think That there is A hope. That when you have another child, if you choose to have another child or the Lord gives you another child, That this will be the easy one, and that they'll just progressively get easier. But I haven't found that to be the case. You haven't? No.

No, I've had that three that have been Just really easy toddlers, just easygoing, cheerful. We're going here, great, I'm good. We're going here, we're doing this, I'm happy. And I've had seven that have been. Challenging for various reasons in various ways.

And my last two were challenging because they were obsessed with me. I nursed them until they were two years and three, two years and nine months old. Longest I've ever nursed babies. Probably like Hannah with Samuel. Yeah.

She probably went longer, actually. Yeah, I probably did, honestly. And They just We took a huge family trip two years ago to Europe for 45 days. All of us went. And And One and it was wonderful.

Things could not have gone better. Our weather was perfect. We were all safe. It was such an enjoyable experience. But it's, you can say it was such an enjoyable experience.

And also, that was really hard. Like, there was a lot of moving pieces, there were a lot of moving pieces. And two of the moving pieces constantly were keeping two two-year-olds who were very out of their element okay with life. I can't even imagine. It was a hard.

constant like family working together thing, but Here's what I don't want. I don't want my older kids to get to parenting and go What in the actual world She never told us about any of this. They are never the parents. There's a whole conversation about parentification. And if you ask your kids to be participants in your home or ever like play with their siblings or watch them or help them with something, you're making them the parent.

That is absolute nonsense. We know the difference between helping someone do something for 30 minutes and being in charge of their entire lives. That's good. And I do think that we rob our kids of an. incredible opportunity to just like it talks about in Philippians two, four, consider others as more important than yourselves.

Look not only to your own needs, but to the needs of others. If we are called to love God and love our neighbors, we better start with the neighbors that live in our own home. And loving means giving of ourselves, not just prioritizing what we want to do and never being inconvenienced by our siblings or our parents or the neighbors outside our doors.

So, when you said, is it just kind of like you just roll with it now? Yes, in some ways. But also The Lord gave us two very clingy, needy little boys at the end. And They are still Some of our Rascally-esque in some ways, you know, just to come up with a word. But it doesn't phase me like it used to.

Maybe that still requires a great deal of effort and focus. In fact, I would say. They were my biggest focus in the last four years, while also not ignoring my older children, of course, but like they took the most mental, emotional, and physical energy. Your time and energy. Yeah.

Yeah. They were with me all the time. And if I was going somewhere, they were with me. Whereas the older kids, they can stay home. Like I get them started on math and they can do math while I take the little babies that are going to distract the tar out of them to the gym with me, teach a class, pick up some groceries, come back, and then we just roll with our day.

The babies go down for naps. We literally still call them the babies because they are the babies of our family, even though they're four and a half.

So it is still like. We are going to be giving of ourselves and pouring ourselves like. Romans 12.1 says, You know. Offer yourselves as your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, for this is your, you know, this is your spiritual act of worship. And again, Whereas the culture tells us you should kind of try to skate through motherhood as much as possible without letting it phase you too much, because if you don't.

I literally just came across an account the other day that was doing some fitness stuff, and the fitness stuff had a spin-off account, and it was called something about selfish motherhood. Yeah. And it was the idea that you put yourself first or you won't be able to prioritize anyone else, which is the opposite of what Philippians 2.4 says. Wow. And this wasn't a Christian, it's kind of that.

The twisted self-care. Right, exactly. Yeah. And my first book, Emma's from Amazon, I have a whole chapter called Self-Care versus Soul Care. Yes.

Where it's like, I mean my nails are done right now. I'm wearing jewelry, my makeup is done. I'm not at home with my children currently. Clearly, it's not just this. Absolute slog that you never ever come up for breath from, and help is always wanted and accepted.

But when you make it about you first, rather than saying, Lord, what do you have for me? A lot of times you just create this void that No amount of treats and Drinks out with girlfriends, or whatever all the world tells us that we need to survive, or Starbucks, or Target Runs, or, you know, just kind of the things that are the social media memes, they don't fill it. And I think too is because we're in that area. It's so easy to be on social media and we get into the comparison mode. Man, and it's really easy to fall down that valley when you're a parent and when you're a mom and you're looking at other lives or you're looking at other moms who seem like they've got it all together or they are having their me time.

And you're like, I haven't gone to the bathroom by myself in five years. Honestly, I'm listening to this conversation. I'm thinking, you're the one they're comparing themselves to. Yeah. I mean, you are remarkable in terms of what you do.

The capacity. I'm thinking the average mom is like. She writes books, she homeschools, she teaches fritters, she's got 10 kids, blah, blah, blah. Right. She builds homes.

I mean, it's awesome. But the average mom is probably like, it's unattainable. And you're saying, no, it isn't unattainable. Right. Because your version, no matter what it is, is not less than, it's only different.

And So If you're saying Uh I bake bread in my home and have people over. Glory be to God. Like, that is what he has called you to do. Be faithful in that. Also, you've probably heard somewhere that this idea of never compare your beginning or middle to someone else's kind of farther down the line.

I. Did some of these things like the fitness instructing, which again, it's only. Hard and bad in our brains when it's something hard that we don't enjoy, right? Like I was giving you, I like exercising. It's fun.

If someone does, it's right. If someone doesn't like exercising, they can't relate. I don't like gardening. I want to like gardening, but I don't like gardening. I'm terrible about like outdoor plant stuff.

And so, someone that's just out there, my sister-in-law, my sister-in-law planted this gorgeous garden. You know what my first impulse when I walked into this gorgeous garden was? One, to praise her, two, to be like, oh no, I'm failing. I got to get on this. And then I step back because I'm 42 now and I have more sense than I did when I was 20 and was trying to like do all the things at the same time.

And I go, Exactly in what time Would you do this, Abby? It's taken. And the Lord has put that in your path.

So keep going down that path that you have and let her be amazing in this and cheer for her because the Lord has gifted her in this. And then grow in it when you get an opportunity in a little space of time. It's a lot like the Proverbs 31 woman. I used to read that and be overwhelmed with all the things that she did. I'm like, no, that's her lifespan.

She's a prototype, too. Yes, exactly. It's not a. It's not, they're not describing this one particular woman. Yeah, they're describing.

Things that you can do to be rise up and call blessed for doing. Yeah. Taking care of your family well, looking well to the ways of your household economically, and being frugal and wise and making good choices and honoring your husband. And like you see, you're doing all those things, but. I'm never playing pickleball, being a fitness instructor, writing a book and teaching math at the same time.

At the same time, exactly. You know, and I didn't publish a book until I was 39. I am, I always say, I'm just a highly pragmatic person. I don't do quote-unquote dreams. I don't set goals.

I'm not someone that's like, in five years, I will have sold this many books. The Bible tells us you don't know where you're going to be tomorrow. And the Lord is the one that counts the hairs on your head and gives you the next breath in your body. And so it talks about in James that you say, if the Lord wills, we will do this or that and go. And so, how presumptuous of me to say, in five years, I know I'm going to be killing it in this.

One, I don't care. I like actually don't care. Sure, numbers are nice, but... If I'm killing it and I have made that happen outside of the Lord's will for my life, shame on me. And your kids are miserable.

And my kids have spent so much time away that you're not around them.

Now, do you do the same thing with your kids? Like, not set goals like they're going to be doing this in two years. Oh, gosh. Because a lot of moms live under this guilt, even the sports thing. What do you guys do with that?

So we did not do a lot of sports with our younger children because we didn't want to spend every evening away from our homes running around. We are both very sports-minded and grew up doing a ton of sports, but we also come from much smaller families. And So we would do like soccer. In the spring. And whoever wanted to play soccer, we would all do soccer.

And we would run around in the yard. We have a big front yard, you know, just things like that. But as our kids have gotten older, so particularly my second son, Simon, who's 17 now, loves sports. And we homeschool, and there is a homeschool league in our area. We have a very active homeschooling community in East Texas.

And there's a homeschool league that's quite competitive.

So he played. I'm trying to remember what note. How many players does a normal football team? You know this. How many players does a normal football team have that they play?

Well, you play 11 at a time.

Okay, so this was six-man football, I think.

So six-man football. They have seven man.

Okay, that sounds good. I didn't never count. I just needed to know who mine was out there. And two of my boys played that for a couple of years, and then Simon has gotten really into basketball, and he just practices and practices and absolutely loves it. You were talking about do I plan for my kids?

I graduated early, and so I assumed all my kids would, because who wants to, you know, and would go to college. But My son was on track to graduate a year early, and my oldest son did graduate a year early and really was kind of unmoored for a year. Was like, now what? Because he's choosing to do computer programming. I think the world is changing with college, and I have no idea if any of my kids are going to call.

I mean, my age back at college age, it was like, of course you're going. And now it's like trades and learning skills and jumping right into earning money, which I think is really wise. No student debt. No student debt. Exactly.

So my oldest is learning computer programming like his dad. But for that year after high school, where everybody else was still in school at his homeschool co-op, he was like, what do I do with myself?

So my secondborn is obsessed with sports. He wants to be an athletic trainer and wants to work with athletes. And he's going to be really good at it too. He's personable. He loves the burn.

He loves, he's very motivated and disciplined and gets after that. And so. Here I am thinking he's going to want to graduate a year early. And he said, Mama, please tell them I'm not a senior this year because I want to play basketball for another year. Of course, I did that.

So even the plans that I did have, I mean, they change. That's what happens. With 10 kids and. I remember, like, I'm trying to see who God made our kids to be. You probably do that.

You're just so fun to discover. That's one of my favorite things about being a mom. Yes.

And that's what you've done. You haven't made your kids become something, you're watching who God created them to be. 100%. How did you learn that? I think my parents did a good job of exemplifying that for me.

Um, because I went to college so early, of course, she had some input on like my class choices and stuff because I had no idea what I was doing, you know. And so, she was thinking very pragmatically, and she was thinking I might be a physical therapist or physical therapist assistant because you have flexibility of schedule if you become a mom, you have you know a good degree that you can keep and a certification, like whatever all the right terms are for. And I, I mean, I was like, okay, mom. I mean not so very reluctantly, but just like, okay, I'll try that. I would have been a terrible physical therapist assistant.

I mean, I just, that's, I'm very physical, but I'm not science minded. I just don't, I'm not medically minded. I don't care about that stuff. I love words and I love languages. And so I ended up getting a double BA in Spanish and English.

And interestingly enough, the Lord has used both of those things. I have an English degree that I 100% use to write books now, and I taught high school Spanish between public, private, and homeschool co-op for a combined total of 10 years.

So That wasn't her plan for me. But she rolled with it when she saw the interest developing and saw me working hard and you know, making the grades and getting the academic scholarships because we didn't have any money for college. I went to college for free. Because We needed all the scholarships.

So I was grateful not to come out with student debt. But yeah, she set the example of. Being somewhat interest-led while having those guidelines there so you don't just completely go off the rails. Yeah, that's good.

Now, how were they the chain breakers? You say that at the first page. Yes, yes.

So the dedication to Heart is not the same thing as bad, it's to my parents. Who both grew up with genuinely abusive parents in some way, shape, or form. My mom grew up with a physically abusive dad, and a mom who, as a result of being married to that kind of man, was kind and loving in some ways, but also just emotionally unavailable and sometimes didn't get out of bed. And so my mom literally got her hardship license at 13 years old and was driving at 14, driving everybody everywhere, working, doing all the things. She has been.

Someone who has coped. Since she was very, very young.

Someone who has had many, many negative words spoken over her throughout her life. My dad came from an extremely godless, and my mom lived in the South, lived in East Texas. You know, they're going to church, and I think my grandmother was a Christian, and my grandfather, whom my mom, Chose to love instead of, I think she struggled with bitterness at a certain point, but this was the one that was verbally and physically abusive to her. But she just felt convicted that if the Bible says that. you know We are to forgive because Christ has first forgiven us.

That she had to do that. She had to find a way to do that. And so she started, you know, bringing him treats and writing him letters. And he actually came to Christ on his deathbed. I am sure, as a result of her faithfulness to show him what the love and care of Christ looks like.

And um but that was when he was in his seventies, you know, and So My dad's parents were just completely outside of God, and um. Just did really damaging things all around Drugs, alcohol, pornography, all kinds of things. Divorced when he was in his teens. My dad really struggled. With various things, particularly drugs in high school and college, set by this example of his parents, and no guidance and no guardrails.

And so he is a believer, but he struggles with bipolarism. And so, my mom has shown me what it looks like to truly, for better or for worse, walk beside someone who genuinely struggles. To see their commitment. to truly following Christ. When it It would make so much more sense.

in the world's perspective. to tap out. has been so inspiring to me despite the obvious Limitations. of having a dad who Has been hurtful at times. But, you know, I've hurt my kids sometimes, you know, maybe not in the same way.

Your mom could have written the same book title, probably. A hundred percent. And she is the one that taught me that. Growing up, If something didn't go my way, my mother was never going to coddle me. She is one of my best friends in the entire world, and she's so full of wisdom and grace.

And she is the most servant-hearted person that I know.

So she comes to our house. We hire her to come to our house two days a week. And people will be like, My mom would never accept money, or, you know, like things like that. And I'm like, no, we don't want her working for anyone else. And she does not have the luxury of not working at 73 years old.

So. We will make sure that she is taken care of, and we will make sure that our children have the luxury that we didn't have, or I didn't have. My husband had grandparents that he was close to, and that was wonderful. But I didn't have either set of grandparents that I was close to, either because they died when I was young or because they weren't the least bit interested in me. And they have, we call her softa, that's the Hebrew word for grandma.

Um They have a softer. Who Does it? anything for them. She will, you know, she's there, and that incredible luxury is just so precious. Um, I say.

I think I say in the book that one of the most impactful things that my dad did was be willing. Because my mom's the one with a degree. And so, the kind of work that my dad could get was mostly blue-collar physical labor that didn't pay a ton. And so there's this narrative that you can't possibly stay home on a really small income. But my parents wanted to homeschool, they wanted to do something different than they had experienced.

And they felt that they were called to be the primary educators of their children. That, like, just talks about in Deuteronomy 6:6 through 8, that we are to teach the ways of God to our children as we walk, sit, lie, and stand. that they couldn't make the math work to do that. The way that they wanted to do without their children at home with them. But when I say them, I mean my mom.

And so my dad would drive an hour one way to a job that he worked for 12 hours and then drive an hour home. Wow. We didn't see him most weekdays for very long at all. And that in and of itself is maybe a little bit of a mercy because his personality wasn't as. naturally loving and nurturing as my mom's.

But he showed up at, you know, he would come home from a shift and show up at my soccer game and cheer. And that's that's what he could do. And I think That there is great mercy from the Lord. When we show up with what he's given us and give it to him the best way we know how, even if it's very, very imperfect here on this earth. And so, my upbringing, while Not smooth sailing.

Was so different than theirs. They absolutely chose to break generational curses of neglect and abuse. And we get to benefit from that and continue passing that down to our children.

So you've had to forgive your dad. Yeah. What did that look like in the midst of And how old were you? I can't tell you the exact po moment when I realized that I didn't hate him any longer because so you did hate him, though. I really feel like that's probably.

Regrettably, the best word for how I felt toward him sometimes. Um Strong bitterness and resentment. Yes.

Because he, because you just described like he's a good man, he was faithful in terms of working and. But there was a but in there, yeah. He was not enjoyable to be around, and he was not kind to my mom. And here I am raised by this woman that I. idolize.

And Um A person who is having a manic episode. is not in complete control of themselves. And Being able to see that happen Is Um has given me great compassion for other people who struggle. But it's not something I would wish on anybody. And so He just has a tendency toward.

You know, just we're doing it this way and it has to be this way and I am very careful not to just pass out details willy-nilly because I have no business doing so. That's not honoring to my father. You don't need to know the details to know that it was a struggle.

So, someone that's just like, oh, so your dad had hard lines and you just had to stick to him. Poor you. No, it was more than that. And I don't feel called to share specifics, but. Because he's living and because you're trying to honor your mom and dad.

Yeah, we are called to do that as the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Um I don't want to violate. There They're um What they deserve biblically as my parents, in terms of honor, nor do I want to endanger myself biblically, right? But Just know that there were times of deep heart, words said, actions done, that I found myself very, very Angry. That he was, quote, getting away with it.

Because it's very hard to hold someone who. To some extent, doesn't even remember some of the things that they did in the same way that you do, or in the same way that's actually factual and accountable. And again, they're hurting someone that I love. You know, they're they're being. a source of stress To someone that I adore, and you take up that cause, you know, which we are actually called scripturally not to do.

We are told to fight injustice. And to stand up for those who are helpless, but my mom's not helpless. She has Christ as her guide, and she knows what she's committed to. And so I had to really. Wrestle with a reckoning of which things were my burdens to bear, my offenses to forgive, and which things I was taking on that were not mine.

Just because I felt like I had a right. right to be angry because this was wrong you know um And I would say early thirties, somewhere in that range.

Well, even your chapter title about this, The Hard Work of Forgiveness, it has the power to change the way we mother.

So you're saying Because I forgave my dad, and if I hadn't forgiven my dad, it would affect the way you parent. 100%. I don't think there's any way to live. In constant bitterness, especially if you're justifying it, I will say this, not really in defense, but I was struggling with it. I knew that.

My anger towards my dad, my resentment toward him was not right. And there are journals full, and so many tears and prayers prayed of Lord, take this away, please. Like, I don't wanna feel this way. Um And he ultimately did. But I think it was, I say, the hard work of forgiveness, it's ongoing.

It's a process. He's still capable of doing things that get my backup. But I'm able to stand outside it and say, This really doesn't have anything to do with you. Like, that's so good. It's not about me.

He doesn't hate me. He's not trying to hurt me specifically. And even if he is, that's between him and the Lord. Um And I have just seen, I talk about this in the chapter. Just, and my mom tells me how he prays for us every single day.

Really? Yeah, he's a genuine believer. He knows God's word better than almost anyone I know, and yet he still struggles. We see that with Paul. The things I want to do are not the things that I do.

The things that I don't want to do, I keep doing those. Who can save me? What a wretched man am I? Praise God that the answer is Jesus.

So good. Our list is Our listeners have heard my story, but it's very similar. And I didn't realize I was mid-30s. I had anger, I had bitterness that was coming out toward my boys, and that was really directed toward my dad. And when I went through that forgiveness journey, which didn't take a day, it took years.

Yes.

I think it set me free to do that. And husband, they deserved. Totally. And I was like locked up. And Lewis Smeath says in a book.

generations ago, forgive and forget. When you forgive someone, you set a prisoner free only to realize you're the prisoner. Yeah, absolutely. Was me.

Sounds like you had a similar thing.

So now as a mom with that sort of freedom. How has it made you different as a mother?

Well There are times that I wonder if my children's childhood is too ideal. Because their daddy is naturally patient and kind. I am certainly fallible and have had to learn patience and less harshness, which I inherit from my dad. I don't inherit that from my mom. I inherit common sense and no-nonsense, pragmatism, all that from probably both of them, but particularly from my mom.

And I've had to learn. to soften Things and to recognize when it's a strength and when it's a weakness that I don't want to perpetuate and hand down. But also, so someone's be like, wow, you think you're a really good parent, that your kids' lives are ideal. I think a little struggle is good. Like for our kids to grow up with some sort of Adversity in their lives?

It's your title of your book. Heart is not the same thing as bad. And sometimes when our kids struggle, characters developed in adversity. And I know that was true for me, even when obviously I was still struggling with a lot of character growth.

So we talk about. Things in our household. Not delve into all the details, but Even now, they'll see my dad in an episode and tell me something he said or whatever. And Um I'm able to say Okay. I understand.

Selfish struggling. But what was your response? How can we be gracious to that? Instead of just judging, because I think what in the world, what we can do, we stick up for our kids, we come become protective, which we need to protect, but we can so judge the other person without thinking, What could my response be? Right.

And so that's, I started to say that earlier that my mom refused to coddle me. And I think she was probably thinking, like, isn't it, your life goes similar to mine, and it will not have served you well to be coddled, you know? But she would always say, you know. It was a silly example, but homeschool play. The mom picked her daughter, nepotism, it happens.

And Course, I wanted the part. She didn't go, you should have gotten that part. You deserved it. You were better. That was not fair.

She said, I'm sorry that happened, but dig deep into Jesus. That was. Always the response. Goodness.

So I would have been like, that teacher's so wrong. She refused. Wow. So I never grew up with this concept that I was owed something. My mom.

Held that way out of the way. The entitlement piece. Yeah, never. And so. Giving our kids the opportunity to look at the heart of what's happening, especially their own hearts.

and being honest about Our own hearts. I talk about things that I learned. Um in Ms. Romoma, I have this chapter called The Gentleness Challenge. And After baby number eight, I think my hormones were pretty out of whack.

And I was dealing with something called postpartum rage without even knowing there was a name for it.

Well, you know, I think they just name everything now, but you know, it's basically. But we all know what it means. Right. And I had gone through periods of irritability, but this was intense and it wasn't abating. It was like just annoyed all the time, harsh words.

Blame noticing, faulting, because I felt so justified in it. That's the thing is in that moment, it feels like the truth. Yeah. Which is why we can never rely on our emotions to speak truth. That's true in marriage, too.

Parenting, like, they are wrong. That is the truth. That's in your head. Yeah. And so it kind of came to a head one day where we were having people over for a small group from church that night.

I was lying down for a nap. I had a baby and seven other children. And I had given them their list of things to do. We do this stuff all the time. It's like, and I came down, and the first thing I saw on the stair was the thing that I had asked them to move, and that, you know, that was it.

And I am just. I asked you to do this, you didn't do it well. This is disrespectful. I'm ranting at them, you know, and my husband. Who Has been through the postpartum with me at a time or two at this point is recognizing like she's struggling.

And so, so, so kindly, he sat me down. He said, I know that that was hard. And, like, you have people coming over, and you're stressed, and you're not getting a lot of sleep, and you have a lot. in your life, but They didn't do that on purpose. They're just kids.

We can practice again later. It was all stuff that I was like, he's right, he's right, he's right, he's right. But I. I already knew that. Like, that's what the Holy Spirit is telling me while my flesh is saying, you are justified to lose it on your kids.

And of course, the shame that immediately follows when you know you've overreacted just crushes you, but you get in a cycle that you feel like you cannot get out of. And so he said. I'm praying for you. We need to pray together, but we need to work on this, which was so kind of him to say because he wasn't the one struggling with this, but he was willing to be in it with me and not condemn me, which is so kind and so needed in marriage. And so.

I think it was that day or the next day. I just had this idea just uploaded into my brain. It wasn't from me, it was literally from the Lord. And it was like: you're going to do a challenge with your family for 30 days and you're going to tell them you're doing it, where you will speak only kind words. or you will keep your mouth shut.

You will memorize scripture on the topic together as a family, and you will ask for the Lord's help and their help to keep you accountable. And when you mess up, you will apologize immediately and repent. And so, for 30 days, with my kids' help and my oldest son, Who Is critical by nature because his parents are critical by nature, and he's the firstborn, you know, and he's the rule follower and the responsible one. He was noticing everything, and I could tell I was just. He was keeping his mouth shut, but he was starting to resent me because I was not, I was consistently not reacting to adversity with kindness or just hard on everybody.

Yeah. And sometimes it was as simple as, get a snack, Abby. Come on, you just, your glycemic index is not good at the moment, you know, get some calories in you. Combat the physiological aspects.

So, for 30 days, I worked on this.

Okay, wait.

So, you bring the whole family in. Yeah. You say, hey, guys, here's what's happening. Yep. And acknowledge that I was doing wrong.

Yes.

So you're admitting, you're kind of confessing. Yes.

Like I really have, definitely. I have struggled with this. You've probably noticed. Yeah. Absolutely noticed.

So here's what I'm doing. Yep. And what was their response when you said that? They were so kind. I mean, a lot of them were, my oldest son was 12.

And He was like, you could tell he was like, okay, I'm holding you to it. Not in a mean way, but like, you told me to, I'm going to do it. And he did. And there were times I literally was like, Like huge breath to be like. What in the world, guys?

You know, not to do this. Like, what are you doing? Which, okay, I don't think that that is actually called for. Right. But, like, in a, in a not-kind way.

And it can just be the tone. Yes.

Cutting tone. If you say, like, what are you guys doing instead of, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Yeah. Come on.

Yeah. You know better. You know, that kind of thing. I would take a deep breath, and my son would look at me from across the room. And I would close my mouth and walk outside.

Cause that's all I had. I didn't have anything kind to say. I just had to walk up and down our porch and go, Lord help, Lord help, Lord help. Like, I am not any good at this. The fascinating thing that happened.

was that in the process Yeah. Training Myself. to delay speech so that I had time to choose better words. M my hormones got better. Wow.

I kid you not. I mean, I didn't have them tested, but. You can tell the buzzing in my brain, the pressure in my chest. The brain fog and like unable to find words except for the mean words. The immediate like.

You know, quicksilver anger, all those things started to reside, and I'm saying quickly.

So it's almost like The neuropathways changed, but also even that changed all your chemistry in your body, right? And we are getting basically a negative dopamine hit. Like we're getting a dopamine hit of negativity when anger becomes very addictive. Right. Like you shoot up and then you regret it afterwards, but in the moment, it feels almost good.

It's a cycle. Yeah. And so as my kids and the Lord's word, we memorized Ephesians 4. That was one of the chapters we memorized together. Be completely humble and gentle-bearing with one another and love.

Let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth. Don't go to bed angry. Don't give the devil a foothold. Like it's so full. Oh, you did a lot of that chapter.

Speak the truth and love. Speak the truth and love. Yes.

And only speak what's edifying to those that hear it. And it was so convicting. And it was convicting my kids too, because what am I doing? I'm setting an example for them to treat others this way. I mean, they won't forget that, especially your 12-year-old.

He'll remember that as a father. Yeah. I remember years later, he said something, and he's very respectful in the way that he says it, but it was, he was upset at me and about something. I can't remember what it was, but I think I had said something just really quickly, like sharply. And I was like, I'm sorry about that, bud, but I could tell he was kind of still frustrated with me.

And at a certain point, I just kind of looked at him and I said, Bud, I have confessed and repented. It is your job to forgive. Like at this point, I'm not going to do it perfectly in every instance, but. You're going to have to have some grace because you're going to want some grace. You know, like, be careful about holding.

I was speaking from personal experience. And I've told him that.

So when I talk about forgiving my dad, like my kids read this book someday, they've already heard it from me. Yeah. They know that it was a struggle.

Well, and I think too, I think as moms, because I think with the book that we just had come out about how to speak It's What's it called again? Are you kidding me? I was going to say, How to speak the truth in love. How to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. You guys edit that out.

I know they're not going to. We're going to keep that one in for sure. She does know the title of her own book. You do, though. That's an important title.

But I think when God stopped me, because as moms, we're so quick, we respond, we react. That's part of being a mom, to protect them. But we're also training them continually, our kids. And that can bleed into our husbands and how we talk to our husbands and to anybody. There is a cultural trend to treat husbands as another child, and it is so wrong.

So disabled.

So extra-biblical. Yes.

Yes.

And so even. And we feel it. Yeah, I know you do. And I think that's why I wrote about it. But when I felt like, and I'm such a verbal processor, I think it, I say it.

And so for God to say to me, Just take it. Just here was what I had to ask. Should I say it? Yeah. Instead of saying it immediately, should I say it?

And I wanted to say it. I wanted it. I thought it would be so helpful. And it's not a lot of times. Or a zinger.

And that's what you did. You walked out the door. You've just prayed, Lord, help me. Lord, help me. Because you want to say it.

Yeah, and if if there's anybody listening that's like You're like, can I do that too? I actually did it as a Instagram challenge and immediately thousands of women showed up, which what does that tell you? Yeah, this is not an isolated thing at all. Moms have a lot of pressure on them every single day. And one of the areas that it leaks out is anger.

And then people wanted a resource, and I was just overwhelmed at the time. I was like, I don't have time to do this. We decided to include it as a resource that you could access in my first book. And then people were like, that's not enough. I don't want just a chapter.

So there's actually an e-book on my site, Emma'sForama.net, that you can walk through 30 days.

So there's a focus each day. There's a scripture. There's a reminder. It's very short. You could do it in five minutes.

You could get your kids and husband to do it with you. But if you don't know where to start and feel like that's not my personality naturally, I wouldn't, my head would, there's a resource.

Now, where do they find that? EmmasForMama.net under my shop tab at the top. All right, we'll put that in the show notes and a link to this book in the show notes as wellfamilylifetoday.com. Let me ask you this. You didn't use the word.

Guilt. But do all moms Carry mom guilt. I think so.

So My first book, Emma's for Mama, I wrote basically as a response to the FAQs that I get on a weekly Q ⁇ A called What Do You Want to Know Wednesday? that I do on my social media. And I realized As I was, I started to say this a while back, but like, not a dreamer, I'm a pragmatist. The one thing that I always wanted to do was write books. But at a certain point on social media, I kind of resign myself to the fact that I have too many kids and too much going on to actually ever get a book out.

And then Harvest House, my publisher, approached me and offer me this book deal and at that point I realized something amazing. One of my biggest intimidating things was how do you do research for a book when you, like all your time is taken? And I realized I was doing this what do you want to know Wednesday market research every single week. I knew exactly what moms needed to hear. I knew exactly what the culture was telling them and what they were struggling with.

And I knew exactly where I needed to go to find the truth in God's word. And so one of the big things is questions about moms, mom guilt. The self-care thing was another one, which is why I wrote a chapter that Birds and the Bees, another one. It's just the ones that I get asked every single week. I mean, I get 500 questions a week.

And sometimes there's just a theme. You know, like 10 people ask the same thing. And so one of them was mom guilt. And so I wrote a chapter called, Mom guilt, and then overcoming it when you're recognizing the difference between it and Holy Spirit conviction. Yeah, talk about that.

What's that mean? Yeah. So, our culture basically tells us any guilt that we experience is a result of some sort of external force, the patriarchy, your mother's expectations, you know, like the society that requires too much of you, and you shouldn't even be trying to perform to their standards, which is true. God is our standard. Um But sometimes God calls us to something higher than society that's even harder.

So, you know, I'm not saying that's an easy pass by any stretch. Um, And so There are times when we find ourselves, especially with the comparison trap, which was another one that I get asked about constantly, looking over here and feeling guilty that I haven't had this garden done, right? The Lord hasn't actually specifically called me. To work on a garden right now. Like, that's not.

In fact, my sister-in-law would say, I'm building the garden, so you don't have to because you can have what I have. That's sweet. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And so.

And then I'm right now called to do things that take my time, like coming to see you guys while my husband is home and my kids all work together to hold the fort. My sister-in-law is like, I'm not going to go fly to Florida. I'm not doing that. You know, so. Don't take on guilt from something that you quote, are supposed to be doing that you just decided by looking at someone else, or someone else told you you were supposed to be doing, but it wasn't from the Lord.

So that's there's that. But then there's that still small voice. Nice. is poking your ribs about being bitter or losing your temper, or the fact that Uh I'll give this example.

Someone I follow on social media, it's a young mom with four children, talked about the fact that she got convicted that she was putting her kids on a show to cook dinner every night because it gave her freedom to get things done in peace and to get them done efficiently and more quickly. And then she realized, shoot, I just projected this 10 years down the road. And the message I'm sending my kids is: mom does things while you're entertained. But that's not actually the family culture that I want.

So the conviction was: bring your kids in even when it's hard. And I am fully behind this. This is what we do. And I have my twin girls, my first set. This is this is like.

The coolest full circle moment. How old are they now? They're only 12.

So it's one of many, I'm sure I will experience.

So the hardest toddlers, the most pull your hair out like nonsensical, emotional histrionics ever. They are actually releasing a baking book in 2026 because in. Um Four years ago when their twin brothers Which, by the way, they're all born on the same calendar date. Did you know that? No.

What? Really? Both of my sets of twins are born on September 24th, eight years apart. Come on. This is such a God thing.

Yeah, it really is. And so when the babies were little bitty. They wanted to start baking on Saturday mornings, and I was like, You've got to. be kidding me like because you're eight and you're no good like you can't make it's so hard to bake with those ages yeah so and they wanted to do it every saturday morning which was one of the few days when i could go to back to bed for a couple of hours after being up sometimes like ten times a night And I was like, Lord, I don't want to say no. But there is this conviction that I was supposed to.

Little did I know they would get offered an actual legit publishing deal because they've been baking for four years. And my publisher was like, There's a hole in the tween baking market. Yeah. Do you girls want to do it? And I was like, Yes, we do.

So, this, you just don't know. I mean, you can't guarantee that outcome, of course, but you just don't know what your faithfulness to do those things that the Holy Spirit is actually convicting you to do and to change the culture and to be a chain breaker can reap in benefits later. It's Galatians 6:9: Don't grow weary of doing good for in the proper time. you will reap a harvest. And the clincher of it all is if you do not give up.

That's good. So, that guilt piece, let's say, did you ever go to bed at night, put your head on the pillow, and just recant? 'Cause she did.

Some of the negative things you said earlier.

So what, like, as you're talking to all these women women. having that mom guilt. What were your tips?

So one, God's mercies are new every morning. And if we if we don't Live like that? We are literally shoveling away God's goodness with both hands while He's pouring it into our laps. Why would we ever do that?

So rather than making that trite, wake up and say, What do I need to actually repent to my kids of verbally today? Yes.

Maybe not an 18-month-old. They may not understand. Right. Like, mom is so sorry that you, and they're like, just feed me, please, you know? But you can repent to the Lord.

And as much as you need to, to like. the face-to-face people. And then Make it your goal. To work on that specific thing. As opposed to just simply wallowing in guilt, the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind.

That means that we are given bright and logical minds as parents to say, okay, here's the problem. I'm going to solve this in the Lord's strength. We are more than overcomers. We are not victims. I think that's really good.

And also, Take your thoughts captive because if you've already confessed it, repented, it's done. Yes.

Satan, at that point, Satan's the one. I tell my kids all the time: condemnation is from Satan, conviction is from the Holy Spirit. And you will recognize the difference when one keeps you stuck in self-loathing and the other gives you the motivation to ask the Lord how to change. And as moms, it can feel justified. Like, I deserve to wallow.

No, you don't. Jesus died for that. And we don't have to wallow if we've already done the business. We've apologized to our kids. We've confessed.

We have like, okay, here's what I'm going to do different. That's it. It's done. And I think Satan steals our joy when we wallow in it. Yeah, 100%.

Okay, I gotta ask you one other section. Uh in our book about parenting, we said we love the teenage years. Yes.

We loved them. Yes.

And so many parents like, oh. How many teens do you have right now? I have three and we'll have five as of, you know what? I think maybe when this comes out, I will have five. Yes.

Wow. Wow. Yep, which is the most, I've done the math. It's the most I'll ever have. Like I'm getting space so that I will have five multiple times, but I will never have six teenagers.

Okay, so what do you think of it? I love it. I think that they are the coolest human beings. They're fascinating. Genuinely.

They are so much fun. Are they knuckleheads sometimes? Yes, but so am I. I mean, to classify an entire stage as untenable or to like pass over it because we're just going to get through the fog or to make these dire predictions. People will ask, well, what are you going to do when your child does this?

And I say to them, I am not going to assume that I'm not saying it won't happen. I'm not going to say it can't happen. But you're not going to think the worst. No, I'm not going to pro I will prepare my mind. In such a way that I can take things captive?

To the Lordship of Jesus Christ, that I can be prepared to speak words of life rather than screaming and yelling and losing it, that I can know God's ways so that I can put those guardrails up and know when that's needed and when that needs to loosen up some.

So, absolutely, don't be willy-nilly as you go through parenting. But to like put one hand over your eyes and look through your fingers in dread of what's surely coming, and it may not ever come in the way they tell you it will, like, you'll have wasted so much time, and the Bible is really clear. That we are called not to be anxious about tomorrow. And that would include the stages in tomorrow that we haven't gotten to yet. What about the parents that are just like, oh, it's so hard?

They're so rebellious. They speak so. They speak without any kind of honor or respect. I don't know what to do, and I think Sometimes it feels like teens are pushing away and parents just let them instead of pursuing them. Yes.

And I think you answered your own question. You're the father and the prodigal son. You do not ever stop loving them. While also holding them accountable for right and wrong. And the ability to physically do that wanes as they get bigger than you and as they get to be legal adults.

Our legal adult son still lives at home and is very honoring of our house rules. But it, I mean, like literally still comes home at a curfew, even though he could stay out till two in the morning and we wouldn't legally be able to do anything about it. But he has no interest in doing so. Still enjoys being around his siblings. Part of it's just personality, part of it's the family culture, part of it is.

The grace of God, you know, but for those who are already. Like, let's say I get messages from people that are trying about their 17-year-old sudden screaming curse words at them. Yeah. You don't have the same recourses that you do when they were three. You just don't.

Um and part of that may be because You didn't take advantage of those, or weren't able to. Maybe you're a single parent, or you had to share custody, or you just been working all day. You didn't know what you don't, what you know now, you know, you hadn't grown in the Lord, things like that. But It is never. Too late.

To turn a corner, to turn over a new leaf. I'm going to use all the cliches and to say, I will be faithful now. To teach you God's word as you lie, sit, walk, and stand, as I lie, sit, walk, and stand with you. And I can't make you accept it. I can't change your behavior.

I can't, because we can change some behavior and make there be some acceptance when they're too. Five, seven, they are under our authority, and we can say, you will not go to this. You, you know, we're not going to participate in that. We're going to turn that off. You know, we have that, we have that ability.

And I think that's part of our jobs as parents to exercise that wisely. And with a teen, especially an older teen, you're losing some of that ability. But if you can maintain that connection, that they never doubt that you love them. That you want the best for them, that you love God first and then you love them. There's no outcome guarantee, but I guarantee you that you will be changed as a result of being faithful in that.

Yeah, that's really good. I think, and I love this book, Abby. Like, it's beautifully written. The cover is beautiful. Even the setup of it, at the end of each chapter, you have the narrative, the world's response to hard.

I like the dad thought. That's great. I do too, because we did that in ours too. And I think it's good to get the man's perspective. Yeah, after I wrote Emma's Rama, everybody asked me where Diaz for Daddy was.

And I was talking to you off air before we started about how I don't think there's too many men that would appreciate a book called Diaz for Daddy. My husband's like, oh, that's he's like, I don't feel ew about Emma's Rama. I feel ew about Diaz for Daddy. He is right. Yeah.

You get handed that. Oh, yeah, 100%. You get handed that, and the dude's like. This is No, just no, kind of thing. But I had been asked so many times, I was like, Sean, you really need to contribute to the end of this.

And he's got so much wisdom. He does good with words, and he's just.

Someone that I want everybody to meet and love as much as I do, and so I was so glad you got to do that. That's cool. But I love that you have a Christian response to heart, and then you have action steps, questions, and a prayer. I feel like, as moms, one of the things that's really hard to do with as many distractions that we have, even with short chapters like these, is to be like, What did I just read? Yeah, you know, now what I do, yeah, now what do I do?

Exactly. We need that clear direction and the kind of condensing it down to its essentials. I love it. Well, we're gonna have you back to talk about a book coming out right around now. Mm-hmm.

You bet your stretch marks. I just wanted to say it. Did you feel uncomfortable saying that? Every woman is like, oh, yeah, I know what that is. Yeah, I know what that is.

And all the dudes look at me like, what? What? I was just going to ask, what's that about? I guess you guys already know.

So Um I mean Physically speaking, interestingly enough, I've had 10 children and I don't have any physical stretch marks from having children. I think it's just like a genetic thing. Even with those two twins, two sets of twins. Yes.

So strange. I'm as surprised as anybody. But I will tell you where I do have stretch marks. on my soul. On my character, on my personality, on my ability to be patient through hard things.

So, You bet your stretch marks is essentially the culmination of the trilogy that it started with Emma's for Mama, continued with Heart's Not Same Thing is Bad, and ends with this encouragement that is like a resounding exclamation point answer to: Okay, I did all this, is it worth it? You bet your stretch marks. And it comes back around to. Why? not because of what it produces in them.

Although I do think that there will be effects with faithful parenting. I do think the Lord will bring a harvest and produce fruit in them, and He has faithful to do that. It's what it makes in you. Because it is worth it if we are faithfully following God, no matter what the results are in anybody else. Yes.

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