When we are lamenting, we have to take that to the Lord. We can try and turn our backs on him and find comfort elsewhere. There will be no comfort that will satisfy or bring you peace. outside of the Lord Jesus. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most.
I'm Ann Wilson. And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. I think one of the most painful things that I've experienced as a mother and also a grandmother is watching Our kids. go through miscarriage.
Three times. You have this incredible hope and joy and anticipation of the coming years. You kind of go into the future of what this baby will be like, and you've already started decorating the room. And so then, when you lose that baby, it is one of the most devastating things a family or an individual can face. And then to go through it three times or one time, it doesn't even matter how many times.
It's absolutely crushing. And I don't think we always know what to do with that, or where to go, or where is Jesus, and where is the gospel. And we're going to go there today and talk about that. Yeah, we've got Jackie Gibson with us and when you hear her voice you're gonna love it. Go ahead, Jeff.
Pressure. Yeah. I'm tempted to say something very Australian right now. Like, what is he? What am I?
G'day. What are you doing, mate?
Well, obviously, you're from Australia.
Well, born there. I was born there, yes. And lived there how many years?
So I lived there five years, and then my family did a bit of travel for my dad's work.
So we moved to New York State for four years and then we moved to London for two years.
So all my elementary schooling was overseas, but then back to Australia. And I thought when I was on, I distinctly remember being on the return flight going back home to Australia, thinking as like a 12-year-old, I'm going to stay in Australia the rest of my days. I hope I will never have to say another goodbye ever again. You don't say these things. God's like, I'm sorry.
Little did I know. Ann said she'd never marry a pastor. I think I just laughs. Yeah, they know whenever we make those kind of things. That's right.
You know, it's interesting. You've been in those different places. Has your accent ever changed?
Well, I think it's probably softened. Really? Yeah. That's softened. That's not as strong.
Do you hear just a strong Aussie accent? It sounds strong. It sounds strong. Yeah. I think it's beautiful.
It's a little softer than it probably was. You didn't pick up like a British accent.
Well, now you're living in Philly. You do not have that accent.
Well, I'm glad you say that. I have affection for the Philly accent, but glad to not have taken it on at this point.
Well, tell our listeners what you do in Philly and about your family. Yeah. So I lived in Australia. I met my husband there, but he is from Northern Ireland. Just to make things more international, he was studying at a Bible seminary there in Sydney called Moore College, and he was at the church where I was attending.
Really? And I'm guessing he has an accent. He does have a very smart. You know, you people with accents, you sound so smart.
So much more intelligent than the rest of us. You speak for longer with an accent, you know, and you get away with it. Yeah. So we got married in Australia and then we moved to Cambridge, England. He did a PhD there.
We lived there seven and a half years. And then we moved to just out of Philadelphia. Johnny teaches at a seminary, Westminster Theological Seminary. And does a bit of pastoring as well. I'm at home with the kids full-time, which I'm grateful for.
How old are they?
So at home we have a 12-year-old. A Almost six-year-olds and a five-year-old.
So Ben, Zach, and Hannah.
So two five-year-olds. Two five-year-olds for two weeks until Zach turns six. But when someone asks you how many kids you have, what do you say? Yeah. So I say I actually have four children.
I have three at home and one in heaven.
So, our second child, who was a daughter, Layla, she was stillborn in 2016. I like the title of your book, You Are Still a Mother, is the title. Why that title? That title was something I knew before I even started writing the book. I think because when mothers have gone through the loss of a baby during pregnancy, they have nothing to show for their motherhood.
They didn't get to bring a baby home from the hospital to care for. Most people never got to meet that baby. But the death of a child in the womb doesn't undo the reality that you are a mother to that baby. And so, even when they die, you are still their mother. Their death does not undo that reality.
And so, that's why it's important when people do ask me how many children I have, I can't leave out my second daughter, Layla.
So, I have four children. There's a beautiful quote from a minister. From the 1600s, so a long, long time ago. And he would answer that question: I have three sons, all living, only the youngest lives with God. And I think that is beautiful and captures it just right.
What made you want to write about it? I think so. Layla was stillborn in 2016, so coming up nine years. And At the time, it can be a very lonely experience going through this kind of a loss. I knew a few others who had been through similar experiences, but not many.
And it's been nine years since I've had a lot of. learning since then and a lot of thinking and a lot of grieving. And so I attempted to write a book I wish I had had when Layla died. A book to bring hope in the midst of the darkness. Can you take us back?
So, you already had your son. Yes. Yeah. So, we had a beautiful son, Ben, and He came into our family almost as soon as we started trying for children, which was such a blessing. And we assumed, therefore, that it would happen quickly again the second time, but we were so presumptuous.
Well, you mentioned somewhere in the book, I remember viewing God as a vending machine. Yeah. Well, you know, when we're ready to have children, Lord, we will let you know, and then you will give us these children. And we kind of state to God, here's our plan. Exactly.
Yeah, this is my 10-year plan, Lord. If you know, we want neat sibling gaps, first of all.
So we would like Ben to have a sibling close in age. And sometimes that happens. And sometimes it does. It's always a miracle, but sometimes it does. And we assumed that that would happen for us.
But we entered a season of unexplained secondary infertility, they called it. And it. Went from a year into two years, which for some people struggling with infertility is really not long at all. But when you're watching other families grow and yours is staying the same and the months come by, it's just it's a disappointment every month. But finally, the Lord did open my womb, and I got that positive pregnancy test.
And I remember bonding so quickly with this baby. I think because I'd been through pregnancy before and had been, I knew what the end result was, you know.
So I just felt immediately bonded with this baby. And so. overjoyed of course i think especially because we had to wait just that little bit Extra. And the pregnancy progressed very normally. in we were living in England at the time, in Cambridge.
They do a scan at twelve weeks and then twenty weeks. And I remember the twenty week scan was the one I was anxious about. It's the anomaly scan where they're looking for any problems. And everything looked great, and the baby was healthy. And so you found out it was a girl.
We did not actually, we did not. It was going to be a surprise.
So we didn't know if it was a boy or a girl at that point. But again, my presumption was: well, we've passed the 20-week scan, everything's great.
So this baby will come in the spring, you know, around the due date. And then, towards the very end of pregnancy, I was in my 39th week.
So we. I mean, we were ready. We had the hospital bag packed. We had the newborn baby clothes washed. We had the diapers bought.
We had the little Moses basket beside the bed ready to go. We'd done the deep clean of the house. And it was on a Sunday and I just we'd been to church that morning and I just felt like the movements were less than they had been in the past.
So I phoned the hospital and I said, Can I come in now for monitoring? Oh, how I wish they had said, Yes, come in. They said. You know, women can be anxious at the end of pregnancy, take a breath. Have something cold to drink, lie on your side and just count kicks.
So I did that and we felt I felt movements and I counted them and reported back and they said, I think everything's fine. You've counted kicks, you've felt movement.
So I think we're fine. But then the next morning, I just woke and I could not feel any movement from that baby.
So that's when my husband Johnny and I went into hospital and I, you know, we were in a somber mood, but we never could have guessed. what they were about to tell us.
So when they finally got the You can ultrasound machine. And they we knew at that point when there was just silence and we couldn't hear that. racing baby heartbeat and then they finally said I'm sorry, there is no heartbeat. And you just. I'm sorry, there must be a mistake.
What do you mean? Ah.
So that's when we found out. And at that point, I said, Can you tell me, is it a boy or a girl?
So I found out. that I had a daughter on the same day I found out that she had died. Uh And then did you deliver her?
So then I delivered her. I I s I mean, again, you it's just all brand new. It's also shocking. I assumed they would wheel me into surgery and give me a C section. But they explained it's really better for you and for hopefully future pregnancies if you deliver naturally.
I'm sure there are different policies in different hospitals and countries. I went home for two days waiting to give birth. They've given me something to help. Um Speed along the process. But so I had to walk around my womb.
was a tomb, but I looked like any other full-term pregnant woman. For two days, what was going on in your head? Were you just grieving? Were you mad? What were you thinking and feeling?
It was just very dark, very dark, and very scary. I was terrified of giving birth to a baby who had died as well. Um and you also have a little boy. I had we had a little boy he was four at the time.
So he's running around the house and yeah, has no idea. Yeah, I mean, we had we had to tell him, well, yeah, we told him that uh your little sister has gone to heaven. Which is very confusing because I'm still carrying Layla, you know. I think having him was a blessing for us because we still had to get up in the morning. It was, you know, he still needs breakfast and lunch and dinner.
You know, what was Johnny like your husband? He just gave me a lot of space in those days. Did you need that? I did. I was just upstairs in the bed.
just listening to music and crying, you know, your tears never run out. What did you prayers or your talk to God sound like. I don't know that I actually said much to the Lord. I think it was just. Shock.
Shock and the spirit was interceding, you know, with groans.
However, I did feel the Lord's closeness in those days. He didn't feel far away. He felt very close. And I remember having particularly sweet fellowship with the Lord Jesus. And I remember feeling like I could see him more clearly than ever before, carrying his cross, walking towards Calvary.
And that was a sweet thing. And that's What? Gave me courage for the birth that I had to go through, knowing. Christ has gone through immeasurably more suffering than me. He's our man of sorrows.
And he understands every facet of my grief in this moment. On the day when we did go into hospital to give birth. We we had peace, which You can't explain any other way than the Lord gives us all understanding. And we were in a strange way, maybe it might sound strange to some, looking forward to meeting our daughter, even though she had died. What does she look like?
I heard she looked like her brother. She did. She looked like her brother. She had a lot of dark hair. She had a nose just like Ben's.
And she was seven pounds. What happened?
So again, we asked to get sort of the post-mortems done where they look and see, and I I think in a lot of cases for a stillbirth at the end of pregnancy. It is unexplained. In our case it was.
So we didn't have answers. In one sense, that was hard. In another sense. It was a relief, I think. For me, it was as simple as the Lord called her home.
He called her name, and she went to him. And so I could leave that. With the Lord. Though I had to wrestle through, I had to wrestle through that moment when I phoned the hospital and said, Can I come in? and they told me to stay home and count kicks.
I had to Think about that as the weeks went on. What if? Yeah, how'd you deal with the what ifs? Because a lot of us have that about all kinds of things, and that's this is life and death. Yeah.
I mean, it was really hard. Was it. Could I have saved my daughter's life? Could I have done something differently? And I think I had to rest in God's sovereignty over that.
And Psalm 139 will be familiar to a lot of people who have been through, I think. you lost during pregnancy. God had numbered Layla's days before she had come into being. And so that gave me peace in knowing he had made her for a time and he called her to himself. Was that peace pretty instant or was it months or years?
I'd say, I mean, it's there's still days where I still now, almost nine years later, where I think, oh, what if, what if we miss that daughter who would have been turning nine, you know?
So, no, there are moments of peace and then we wrestle with the Lord over these hard things. Was Johnny's journey the same or was it longer, shorter, different? I'd say in many ways it was similar, but in other ways, very different. I think it was John Piper who said. Couples enter the valley together.
But their journeys within the valley are going to be very different. It may be someone else who's okay. That sounds familiar. I think it does sound. But it's hard not to judge the way another person grieves.
Yes. Like they're not doing it correctly or they don't feel as. As sad or remorseful as I feel. Or the timing, I'm coming out of the valley, you're still there. Come on, you know.
But when you said about Layla's death, that it split apart the foundation upon which you stood. You said I felt like I was plummeting into a bottomless cavern. I bet a lot of people have been there or are there right now. What helped you in that place? It's a hard place to be.
You really did feel like despair, and everything that we thought was going to happen didn't happen.
So it was like a free fall. And then I had a sweet friend. A lot of friends send me little bits of scripture. You know, thoughtful parts of scripture, which was such a blessing. But one verse that I was unfamiliar with until she sent me this in a text was Deuteronomy 33:27, which says, The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
Yeah. And that she just spoke right into my feeling of free fall and despair, that I was not in fact free falling, that I had a sovereign, good God who was holding me in his arms. His arms were always going to be underneath me, and I could rest in knowing that was true, even if I didn't always feel like it was true. My reality didn't change the truth of scripture that His arms were holding me and wouldn't let me go. Yeah, it's pretty powerful.
What community means in those moments too, like your friend sending you that or. Praying for you. In fact, I was going to say to our listeners: there's people listening that are going through something like this, or even. Different, but a valley. And one of the things we offer is to pray for them.
So I'm just going to remind our listeners: just go to familylife.com/slash pray for me. We'll pray for you, whatever you're going through.
So, you know, talk about that. How did community Come around you because there's the part of that was beautiful. There's also the part we're listening and going, What should I or shouldn't I do?
Somebody's going through something like this.
So, what was helpful? Obviously sharing that scripture verse. Was her. You know, when I read it in your book, same thing, it hit me the same way. I was like, I'm not sure I've ever read it.
Yeah. And it's powerful. And you have the quote right there at the same time: believe in the dark what you have seen in the light. Yes. I know that's not your quote.
No, that's not my quote. That's a missionary woman called Lilius Trotter. And she was going through a hard season on the mission field and she wrote in her journal, Believe in the darkness what you have seen in the light. Because it's hard to believe in the darkness. What you have been taught is true.
But it doesn't change the truth of God's word. Threaten to redefine God, but He doesn't change, and nor does his word, and so we We have to fight. To believe in the darkness, what we have seen in the light. How do you do that practically? Like, how did you do that?
Well The fact that the Lord puts us in a Christian family, and I don't mean biological family, I mean the family of the church. We need to stay connected to the church and And on those days where we're too weak to open God's word and read it ourselves, we need other people to speak it into our lives. We need to. As if we can go to church and hear God's word preached when we're feeling. That weakness.
We need other Christian friends who are maybe not in the valley at the time to encourage us. with what is true, even when we feel At the time, like it isn't. I mean, were there times where, I mean, your husband's a pastor and a seminary prof. Were there times you're like, I don't really want to go to church today? I'm not feeling it.
I'm... I don't want to. I just don't want to. Yeah. Do you know?
In the early days, I didn't want to be anywhere else but church, actually. And I know that won't be everyone's experience, and that's okay as well. Yeah. But. We were so desperate for comfort from the Lord.
That going to church and hearing his word and hearing the singing of the saints. That was a huge encouragement and comfort.
So, in those early days, Actually, I didn't want to be anywhere else than at church with God's people. Wow. That's so sweet. It was so good. Have you ever talked to moms that have been just so angry with God?
Oh, yes. While I say I wanted to be in church, that doesn't mean I haven't wrestled with the Lord, especially over questions of. Is God kind when my daughter died? At nine months, we still, even my husband, the seminary professor, we still had to wrestle with him over these things. This feels very cruel.
Yeah. So how do we Work through that. How do you? Yeah. Especially him as an Old Testament professor.
There's many stories in the Old Testament that seem cruel. Yeah. And you're like, okay, he's a scholar on the goodness of God. How did you wrestle theologically with who he is? And what you were experiencing.
I think one place that will be of no surprise to you that we turned was the book of Job. You know, he went through. un unbelievable suffering. And especially for me, those final chapters where God answers Job out of the whirlwind and says to him, Were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? Have you been to the storehouses of snow?
When I read those words, and then you see Job's response after God. Answers him and he says, I lay my hand upon my mouth. I'm going to paraphrase this, will not be a direct quote. I have uttered things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me that I did not know.
Okay. There's a point in suffering where we have to admit we do not understand the almighty ways of God. We have questions, and that's fine and good to ask our questions. But at the end of the day, We won't have all the answers to our questions about suffering until we get to heaven. But God is sovereign and He has been He is the eternal God who never changes.
So those verses gave me peace in the midst of my confusion. I don't understand this, Lord. I don't know how you can be good, but also my daughter died at the end of pregnancy. I can remember when my sister died, who is my best friend. She died at 45 years old.
She had just turned 45, four kids. And I was so. upset with God. And I remember being in the bathroom, sitting on the floor by myself, Crying out like, this is the dumbest thing, God. Like, why would you even do that?
It feels so cruel. It feels so useless to not have their mom at this point in their lives. Like, I just see no good in it. I see, I think it's just ridiculous. Yeah.
And so I think. The part of expressing what we're feeling to God. But at the end, I felt that prompting of, but will you still submit? Will you still love? Will you still lay your life down regardless of how you're feeling in this moment?
And I had to recall and remember. That he is good. Yes. And that's not always easy. It took me a while to get to that point.
And I remember. Being prostrate on the floor. Yeah. I give you my life still. I will still follow you.
In the midst of tragedy and pain, I will still follow you because I know that you are good from your word. I know it in my head. I don't feel it in my heart yet. And I think that's okay. Do you think that's okay?
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's when we are lamenting. We have to take that to the Lord.
Yes. We can try and turn our backs on him and find comfort elsewhere. There will be no comfort that will satisfy or bring you. peace outside of the Lord Jesus. But yes, to to reach those rock bottom moments.
I think that's where God does some of his. Most significant work of sanctification in our lives and of conforming us to look more like his son, the man of sorrows.
So, yes, I think it is okay to lie on the bathroom floor crying. I certainly did. Yeah. Do you remember the the poem you have in the Book. Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, but trust him for his grace.
Behind a frowning providence, he hides a smiling face. His purposes will ripen fast, unfolding every hour. The bud may have a bitter taste. But sweet will be the flower. Blind unbelief is sure to err and scan his work in vain.
God is his own interpreter, and he will make it plain. Oh, that's so good, isn't it? It does remind me of that by William Cowpa. How did that speak to you when you read it for the first time? Again, it's that.
Those verses at the end of Job, we have to leave these things with the Lord. We have to surrender that to him. He is his own interpreter. It's not our job. He will make it plain now.
probably not this side of heaven. Maybe in his kindness, he will show us some purposes in our suffering now, but not all of them.
So we'll have questions. Until We can ask him face to face. And that's okay. That was a really good conversation with Jackie Gibson and a hard conversation. Yeah, but tender and hopeful.
I'm sure it blessed quite a few people. And maybe you know somebody that's gone through a stillbirth and maybe you have. Her book is awesome. You can get it. We've got a link to that in our show notes.
It's called You Are Still a Mother, Hope for Women Breathing. A stillbirth or miscarriage, just go to familylifetoday.com and click the link there, and you can order the book. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry. helping you pursue the relationships that matter most. Yeah.
