When you say, okay, I'm a Christian and I'm going to make sure I don't look at pornography. I'm going to make sure I don't sleep around. Like, I'm just going to control this part of my life. Which some people are hearing that, like, wait, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that?
Yeah. I should control that. It's not surrender. I'm pretty excited to have Julie Slattery. I have no idea why.
Julie, we love you. You guys are like sisters. I wish she was my sister. She says she is. I know.
Sisters in Jesus. Sisters in Christ. I know. So why are you excited? Really?
I want to hear it. Because Julie, I think her wisdom on this topic that we're talking about today, sexuality. Julie never talks about sexuality, do you? Just this one time. Just this one time for you guys.
Okay. Because she brings practical help and hope in a biblical, grounded way that makes us all lean in. Because the world's wondering, what's happening in our lives when it comes to sexuality? Jesus, are you in it? How can we trust you?
And you do such a good job, Julie, of answering all those questions. And I think Dave and I are just excited because we learn from you every time. Don't you think we do? Oh, for sure. I don't think I'm going to make a pretty big statement here.
In my opinion, I don't think there's anybody better on this topic. Me too. And I know our listeners know you pretty well, but we get to hang out with you and Mike, your husband. How many years have you been married? 30.
30 years. Wow. Yeah. So remind our listeners, and now we have watchers. They're watching us on these cameras on YouTube.
How did you end up in this lane ministry-wise? I don't think you chose it. No, I didn't. It chose you. We've asked you this before, but for our new listeners, I think it'd be good to hear this.
I mean, we're talking today about surrendered sexuality.
So, I mean, how'd you end up here? Yeah. Well, my background is in clinical psychology and I've always had a heart for marriage and family issues. And so for the first, I don't know, 15, 20 years of ministry, I was a generalist. you know, like writing on women's issues and marriage issues and doing counseling.
And then I guess it would be about 13 years ago, God just really dramatically took me through this deep time with him of months and months and months of seeking him and just burdened my heart for sexuality. And it was a long journey to get there, but it was so profound and heavy that it was like, I knew that I knew that I knew that this is what God was calling me to do. When you say he burdened you, what did that feel like? Yeah, well, for a while it was literally a physical pain in my chest. Really?
Yeah. It wasn't a health-related deal? No. Actually, my husband was concerned and made me go see a cardiologist. But I told him, I said, this is spiritual.
You told Mike that or the doctor? Yeah, I did both. You did? I said, yeah, because it, it happened. It started happening when I was like on that prayer and fasting retreat and just, you know, like really feeling like the Holy Spirit was just getting a hold of me.
And then it would like make, wake me up in the middle of the night. I would. The pain or with this topic? The pain.
So it started with a pain. And then, uh, and then I had a mentor, Linda Dillow, who was discipling me through this. And she said, you need to start asking God what his call on your life is. It reminds me of Samuel. Yeah.
And Eli, when Samuel kept hearing God call him. And then Eli saying, say, here I am, Lord. Yes. That's what you're saying. Right.
What are you saying to me? Yeah. I was a little older than Samuel. But I still remember it was in July being on my knees and just asking the Lord, what are you calling me to? What's this pain about?
What's this season about? And him really clearly, like, just I kept hearing the words from Isaiah 61 over and over again. You know, like, I'm sending you to bind up the brokenhearted and release captives, you know, prisoners in captivity. And I didn't know where that was from.
So I Googled it. And I found the passage. Wait, what? Yeah. I was like, I knew it was familiar.
But so I Google it. I read the passage. I write in my Bible the date. This is your call in my life. You wrote that in your Bible?
I did. Yeah. July of 2011. And then I knew it was about biblical sexuality. I knew it was about like all these people crying out to the Lord.
Where are you in my sexual pain? And that's all I knew.
So and then God just led me step by step. to start the ministry authentic intimacy. And I've been on a learning journey. I feel like I learn and then I teach. I learn and then I teach.
So I keep learning. I mean, even as I'm looking at this passage again, I'm just going to read it for our listeners who maybe aren't Googling it right now. I've never read it with that thought in mind of, of people in sexual bondage and needing freedom. Spirit of the Lord. This is Isaiah 61.1.
The spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to those who are bound. Wow. Wow. Yeah.
And you knew that it was going to be about sexuality? I did. How did you know that part? I just knew. You knew.
I just knew. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, was that an emphasis in your studies or anything? No.
No. I had written a book for wives on sexuality and done some speaking just because nobody else would. But I'm sure you've been in that position before. Like, we need somebody to talk about sex. But I wouldn't have ever volunteered to do that.
Didn't feel like an expert in it. Had my own struggles related to it. It's interesting, Julie, because I talk to women that are like, I feel like God's calling me to something. Yeah. And I don't know what it is.
based on what you've gone through, what would you say to them? Seek God. Don't seek the calling. And when he wants to move, you know what it is. You know the steps of obedience you need to take.
You know, if you ask me what I'm going to be doing a year from now, I can't tell you. But I know what it is to seek him and trust him daily. And he lets you know. I like that. And you didn't even start researching or studying any of this until you first knew his calling.
I mean, is there in your mind, that was 13 years ago? Yeah. Is there a difference in the culture, even in the church with sexuality than it was when you started? Oh, huge difference. I mean, when we speak and, you know, I know you speak around and whenever we do Q&A, we're talking about marriage, not always sexuality, marriage.
And 90% of the questions are about sex. And it's usually really heartbroken people that are really struggling with that. It feels like a different day than it was 20 years ago. It definitely is. You know, I think, first of all, Dave, we're more open about our struggles.
We are. We keep ours all quiet. Yeah, right. We don't tell anybody. Yeah.
You couldn't have the same conversations even on family life 20 years ago. than you could have today. And so when we first started the ministry, like churches would say, we really want you to come speak, but either we don't have these issues in our church or we're afraid what will happen if you do, you know, like there are a lot of closed doors. And now everybody's like, please come and speak to us. Like we have all these issues.
We don't know what to do about them. And to some extent, all of that brokenness and confusion was there. We just didn't talk about it. But then there's another layer of the confusion being deeper and more pervasive. The pornography use both for men and women, and then all the questions about gender identity and sexual identity, the confusion about even God's word loving, is it good on these topics?
Cohabitation rates, all these things have become normalized in Christian culture, particularly among the younger generation.
So the questions are more complex. I think the foundations of even how we think about this topic have become so muddled that it's a different day than it was when I started the ministry. I think we're hungry for answers. And I think especially if we have kids that are growing up in this culture, I think parents are at their wits end like, I don't know what to say, what's biblically true. And so I feel like your message is needed more than ever before.
You know what I'm writing down? What are you writing down? I'm writing down a question that I just thought of based on what you just said, that I'm going to save for the bonus section of our podcast. You probably know this. We have people that support Family Life Monthly.
We call them partners, Family Life Partners. And so we've added a little section to our podcast where those who support us are on our team, get to stay on. And so I'm saying that because we'd like you to join our team and we give you bonus material like this question I'm going to ask Julie later. I can tell you what it is, but if you're a partner, you can join us. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the donate button and jump in and you can hear that too.
Well, Julie, this new book that you're writing called Surrendered Sexuality, give us a little insight into the background. Because you just told me as we were having lunch today, this has been your hardest book to write. Yes, it was. Interesting. and I wanted to know about the title too.
Yeah, that was just for me. That was your bonus. It actually happened in the women's room. We were talking about this. I wasn't going to say it, Julie, but now that you put it out there.
We're going to be transparent. Men do not talk in the bathroom. We don't even look at each other. Women go in there and talk. I don't even want to know.
Yeah, you don't want to know.
So this has been the hardest one to write. Yeah, it was. It's written now, so I'm thankful it's done. But yeah, I battled with writing this book. Like you were already into the project?
Yeah. Why? It was too hard. It was too hard. Yeah.
What's hard? What do you mean? Hmm. Had to be something. Yes.
I think one thing that was hard is to write a book to the general Christian audience on sexuality where I now am so aware of the multiple pain points. and so you know somebody's going to pick up this book who has horrendous sexual trauma in their past and you know somebody's going to pick up this book who really thinks that god created them to be gay and a loving god would let them marry the person they want to marry that's what they're thinking yeah yeah and you know somebody is going to pick up the book who is addicted to pornography and hasn't told the soul and on and on and on like I have all these people in my mind that I've walked with and uh writing a book of biblical truth the journey of how do we surrender this area of our life to God knowing particularly in those first few chapters all the things that will be triggered and all the questions that will be raised it just was so difficult and then I had a pilot study going through it with me as I wrote and they were being very honest about how it was hitting them and some of it was difficult for them so it was just wanting to be sensitive to how tender this topic is but wanting to be bold with biblical truth so I think that's and then there's a spiritual element to it the spiritual warfare yeah of just the discouragement and And, you know, I think when God really calls us to something, it's something that we can't do in our own strength and wisdom. I think the word surrendered is probably my favorite word in the Christian life. Because to me, that's my theme. And I think it really is for anybody.
If we want to live and walk with Jesus, it's like laying down our lives in every single area. And so this word surrendered sexuality, I'm thinking you're very intentional about that word that goes alongside it. Yeah. Yeah. I've learned over 13 years of ministry in this space that sexuality is very often a wall between people and God.
Yes. And I'm not just talking about unbelievers. I'm talking about Christians. where they know I'm supposed to be giving my whole life to the Lord, laying my body down before the altar as a living sacrifice, loving him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. But this is a piece of their life that feels impossible to surrender for one reason or another.
And so it becomes compartmentalized, and they don't know what to do with it. And then the enemy really camps there so that... they begin to think, well, I can't surrender. I can't serve God. I can't be available to him.
God can't save me. God can't help me because I've got this pocket over here that I don't know what to do with. And I'm not sure God even sees or cares about. And so the book really is not so much, it's all about sexuality, but it's really more about the Christian journey of what does it mean to bring something to Jesus and trust him? And work through all of the shame and all the pain and the questions with your eyes fixed on him.
Have you ever had anything like that? A sexuality area that has been hard to grapple with to take that to Jesus and surrendered? Yeah. I think more than once. I think I've talked publicly about how this was not a good area in our marriage.
Yeah. And, you know, just like where's the goodness of God in it and the pain and the struggle. And then there are other other situations I can't speak publicly about where this has just been an area of real pain for me.
So, you know, I feel it. You've experienced it yourself. Yes. Yeah. And I'm thinking of the pockets.
We named a lot of them like pornography, sexual trauma, abuse. Gender. Gender. Yeah. Yeah.
Or even as a parent, you know, so many parents who are like, my child is transitioning genders or has just told me that they're gay and they're getting married to the person they love. Like, I feel torn. Like, do I serve God or do I love my child? And so in my ministry, these are the stories I hear daily. My husband has cheated on me, been addicted to pornography.
I don't know what to do. And so I just see, like, this is a pain point that the enemy uses to divide us from the love of Christ. And so much of it's a secret because of the shame we carry along with it. Right. So how do we surrender our sexuality?
I mean, in some ways, I'm thinking, I don't know, I think it was Billy Graham that said the average person when they get baptized takes their wallet and holds it up out of the water. Yes. Like, baptize all of me but my money. Or my calendar. My calendar's in my phone, and so that's up there, too.
But when I think of that, I think a lot of people feel the same way about their sexuality. Me, too. It's like, I'm giving everything to Jesus. But this part, I came to Christ in college, and that was my first question to my mentor.
So what's God think of sexuality? Can I have sex? Because I hope I can. I went into a Christian bookstore at 18 years old. I know I was 17 because I didn't know, didn't grow up in the church.
Nothing was written about it back then. I went into a Christian bookstore, which I felt like, this is a piece of heaven. This is an amazing place. And I wanted to go ask the lady that was behind the desk, can you point me to a book that tells me if it's okay to have sex before I get married? That's what I wanted to say, but I felt too much shame.
And then I almost asked Dave because he was a friend, but I was too embarrassed to ask him. but there's just a shroud of secrecy and shame. Maybe that's why we end up together. We both have the same first question. Have you figured it out?
I don't know if we have 45 years in, but it is a sense like, and you know, as I disciple men, they're like, I'm good with everything. This area, please tell me I don't have to surrender that. Right. Especially if they're not married. Yeah.
They're thinking, I still want to have sex outside of marriage. And it's like, no, God has a better plan. But so is that what surrendered? is a little bit about? It's all the above?
Yeah, that's why I wrote a whole book on it, honestly. You know, I think I've seen people do one of three things. Instead of a surrender, I've seen them compartmentalize. And, you know, I mean, even you see this dramatic kind of expression of that when we see Christian leaders who have this pocket of something that they've not disclosed and it blows up.
Well, that happens every day in real Christian, like just normal Christian lives, not just leaders where it's like, oh, I can have this little secret struggle or lust, you know, addiction, whatever relationship that I don't tell anybody about. And I can still go to church and read my Bible and serve God and just have a wall.
So you can compartmentalize. Another thing you see is compromise. Like, you know, I just don't think God meant that to be true for our day and age. We know so much more now than we did when Paul was writing his letters and when Jesus lived that if they were around today, they would be a little looser on this stuff. And then I see the third approach is they try to control their behavior.
And that's not surrender. When you say, okay, I'm a Christian and I'm going to make sure I don't look at pornography. I'm going to make sure I don't sleep around. And I'm just going to control this part of my life. Which some people are hearing that, like, wait, what's wrong with that?
What's wrong with that? Yeah. I should control that. It's not surrender. And that'll only work for so long.
And you talk to somebody who would say, I haven't looked at porn in three months. And it's all their own willpower. It's not been surrendered to the Lord. Like, there's a matter of time where that dam is going to break. because we're just not strong enough in our own strength.
So what's it look like to be surrendered and not just controlled? Surrender means that you give that whole part of yourself to the Lord. You know, let's take the example of pornography. Underneath pornography use are belief systems that sex is about me consuming and me feeling happy and me objectifying people. you also almost always have pornography self-medicating something so i don't know how to deal with my depression my anxiety my loneliness maybe my trauma and so when you try to control your behavior but you're not inviting god into those other areas of your wounding and how you're thinking how you're doing life at best you're just going to move to another addiction so uh so surrender is god i can't stop on my own so it's admitting that confessing it and inviting him in everything you know it's not just inviting him in to change my behavior it's inviting him in to remake all of who i am in the image of christ and that's your prayer yeah so have you seen that with people you've worked with absolutely where the surrender is the is the thing you always have Such great stories, too.
Yeah, tell us a story without telling us a name. Oh, man, so many. Really? There's a lot of stories in the book. I love that.
Yeah. There's a story of a pastor that I know who struggled with pornography, came to know the Lord in college. Hey this isn me in case people are listening because all of that is true There you go I was a pastor struggled with pornography Yeah so this is another pastor Yeah And so he didn tell anybody in his church and he felt he felt horrible about it shameful about it, like even doubted his salvation. And he kept praying that God would take away the struggle and that he'd stop sinning. And he kept like, he'd have success for a little bit of time and then fall back into it.
and somewhere along the road he got some good discipleship and mentoring got connected with our ministry and began realizing that it's not about trying harder to not sin it's really about intimacy with god so the subtitle of this book is how knowing jesus changes everything and when you when you think about surrender in this particular pastor's life or so many others that I can tell you about. It's when we know Jesus in such a way that he's more powerful to us than our sin is, that the sin falls away. And so this pastor, you know, he shared his story a little bit in the book and shared his story with me and so many other people, whether it's abuse or unforgiveness. Surrender requires trust. And the problem is, is that most of us don't know Jesus well enough to trust him.
And so when you say to somebody, a believer, like just surrender your relationship to the Lord, your relationship with your boyfriend or girlfriend, or surrender your future to the Lord. Or your sexuality. Or this sin struggle, like be honest, surrender it. Who are they surrendering to? You know, are they surrendering to a Jesus that kind of has echoes in the church?
Are they surrendering to somebody that they know well enough to know that he will not condemn them and that he is for them and he will walk with them? And so all the stories I could share are not about one time epiphanies. It's about these journeys of realizing that I've come to know Jesus in such a way that he's greater. He's better. Yeah.
Yeah. He's worthy of my surrender. I don't think a majority of the people know him like that. I think they see him as a God of judging, a God of rules, condemnation. I mean, I used to see him as the, in my young mind was, he's the Old Testament, scary, holy, righteous God that could never be in my presence because I'm such a sinner.
Right. And I have such a horrible past. He has to look away from me. And that's not who he is. When you read scripture, especially as you read the New Testament and see how Jesus identifies, loves, is with people.
He's not condoning their sin, but he gives them and offers grace, but freedom in their sin. I think most of us feel like, and I certainly felt this way, that we have to get our act together in order to have intimacy with God. Yes. And when you have sexual issues, whether they be past sins or current struggles or questions, you feel like, well, until I get this worked out, I can't be used by God. I can't know him.
I can't have intimacy with him. Or actually the opposite is true. It's through intimacy with him that the questions get answered and our wounds get healed and our sin struggles lose their power. Yeah, that's really good. When you say that sex is never just about sex, you say that a lot.
Yeah, I do. Never just about the sex. Is that what you're talking about when you bring in the spiritual component? Yeah, I really believe that every sexual issue is also a spiritual issue.
So there's something underneath. There is a spiritual river underneath what's happening sexually. And when we talk about sex in the church, we're often just talking about the behavior. We're not tapping into that deeper spiritual river of what's happening. How is this separating you from God?
How is this creating doubt about his goodness? How is it keeping you from wanting to surrender your life fully to him?
So that's what gets me excited is the spiritual things that are happening underneath the sexual issues and questions. I like the spiritual river. That's a great word picture to me, a visual.
so give us an example of that of somebody that's like okay this is what i think it is but it's a spiritual river yeah so you know like let's say there's an example of a couple that is having real issues in their sexual relationship i've maybe a temptation to have an affair or maybe even recover from an affair. The issue is I'm not happy with my partner. Like I'm more attracted to this other person. I think this other person would make me happier. That's what we see on the surface.
And we say, don't do it. Like it's wrong. Don't have an affair. But if we look underneath, like what's happening in that person's heart, they're beginning to doubt the goodness of God. They're beginning to believe that my fullest life doesn't come from following God.
It comes from this other person or feeling good or feeling validated. And so like that's an example of the spiritual river or after the affair happens, then there's the shame of I've blown it. Like I can never be redeemed. Like my marriage could never be redeemed. And I'm not worthy to be redeemed.
So either I have to hide this and not tell anyone, or sometimes people just give in to the shame and they're like, well, I've blown it.
So what does it matter? I might as well just live in sin for the rest of my life.
so you know again i think this idea of surrender is going to the deeper places of what's happening in the person's relationship with god what's happening in their journey with god how is sexuality either keeping them from knowing the love of god or even the sexual pain becoming an opportunity to draw them into knowing god like why did jesus bring up uh at the woman at the well why did he bring up her sexual brokenness? Why did he? Why do you think? You're the pastor. No, I'm just kidding.
You wrote the book. Yeah, I'm going to quote John Piper when he was writing about that encounter. He said, Jesus knew that the quickest way to the heart is through a wound. Oh, I haven't heard that quote before. That's good.
Yeah. So if you think about that, that's where our wounds live is often in our sexuality. It's in our rejection. It's in our longing. It's in our shame.
Jesus enters into that not to condemn us, but to stand there with us and to offer us life and living water. He knew that this is what this woman kept going back to, to find life, and it wasn't fulfilling. And he said, hey, I can offer you what you're looking for. But he had to open that wound first, or they would have just been talking theology and never gotten to the heart. Yeah.
Which, I mean, in some way, I got to say this. What you just said sounds like the churches or the Christian teaching for decades has been. Talk around it. Yeah. Behavior.
Yep. Behavior modification. Never really getting underneath it to the real issue. And so we grew up trying to, you know, abstain before marriage and control rather than getting to the river.
So true. It is so true. And that's why we haven't been affected. Like when you talk about the river of what's happening spiritually, I think the core of it is identity and what we believe about ourself. And so whether it's, you know, the shame that sexuality feeds or it's the lies that it feeds about what makes me, me in our culture today.
Like Jesus is all about changing identity, not behavior.
Okay. You got to go there. Yeah. What are you talking about? Identity.
that's big yeah it is big i mean you're talking about even the gender thing or the lgbt all that or sure okay so you know i think a few years ago i kind of came to this conclusion the most important bible passage about your sex life is this one i think we're going to be surprised yeah there you go really yeah yeah if you are in christ you are a new creation old things have passed away and all things have become new second christians 5 right see i knew you'd know the address right there yeah so when you think about it all behavior comes from identity what we believe about ourself and what we want to believe about ourself and jesus came to give us a new way of thinking about self and so sexuality will get us chasing four different identities okay the first one is that i find meaning through my sexuality self-discovery and that's kind of what you're getting at with the gender and lgbt it's like i can find my true self through my sexuality and that's that's a lie and we could talk about why that's a lie and they think by pursuing that when i discover that and i pursue it then i will be happy right yeah and so filled like i finally have discovered oh this is who i really am yeah and that and comes from a postmodern humanistic view it's not something that even existed when the bible was being written and we've only begun using words like heterosexual homosexual bisexual within the last 130 years like those words did not exist but people will say but that's been going on since the creation of the world words are in the bible well the words that are in the bible actually are words that describe behavior, not identity. It's men lying with other men.
Okay, so the behavior existed, but the words we use to describe a person. As an identity, yeah. Yeah, those were coined around the time of like Sigmund Freud. And then transgender, like those words didn't appear in our language until like 1960, 1970.
So we don't realize how new it is to be thinking about ourselves in terms of our sexual experiences or identities because this is all we've ever known.
So that's the first one is that sense of I need to discover who I am by my sexuality.
So what do you say to a parent who says my son or my daughter says they are attracted to male to male, female to female? Or again, I'm throwing a lot in one question, but or if they're saying I'm a boy, but I think I'm a girl. or girl, boy, identify as. And they're saying, that's my identity. As a parent, you know this.
How do you articulate that to your son or daughter who's convinced, don't tell me anything different. You're not living in this body. I am. And this is who I am. Yeah, boy, that's a question we could spend a couple episodes unpacking there, Dave.
Yeah, I think it starts with recognizing why your child believes this and how indoctrinated we've been in our culture on this. And it's not just LGBT. Like, why do you think the average person gets married nowadays? Gets married? Yeah.
At all? To be happy. To be happy. I found my soulmate. Yeah.
You know, like, that's part of the postmodern culture, too. Yeah. Is, you know, it's all about my feelings. It's about this completing me.
So, yeah, I think it begins with understanding how indoctrinated we are in that thinking about sexuality, marriage, romance, and presenting a completely alternative biblical worldview. Which again, when you hear a lot of teaching on marriage, even in the church, it's very postmodern.
So we need to go back to our roots of what the scripture teaches on these things. Not just when we're talking about LGBT, but understanding our sexual experiences and what the purpose of romance is and all of that. And I think a lot of people would say, well, Julie, I want to know that. Where in the world did I find it? Yeah.
In your book. I was going to say, that's why God called you, because there aren't very many people that are dealing with that specifically, and it's their entire ministry, and it is for you. It is, yeah.
So there's a whole chapter on surrendering thinking, which is chapter three. And if you've ever written a book, chapter three is like your power chapter. It's the turn. It's the most important one. And I really feel like in a Christian's walk in today's day and age, that's the most important thing is to understand how much we think like the world thinks about our sexuality, how far we've gotten away from what a biblical theology of sexuality is.
Wow. I'm thinking of all the parents. She's got four of them. She's just got one. Oh, I know.
Wait, let me ask you this question about this area because parents are listening, thinking, I want this. I want this for my kids. and I don't know how to help them with it. Yeah. Well, first we have to get it.
You can only take someone as far as you've gone in discipleship.
So you're not just handing them your book or a book as a parent. No, we don't realize how much we've been indoctrinated because in the church, if you are, I use the term heterosexual, and you have a male-female marriage, you just take on a lot of the culture scripting without realizing it because it's not an obvious kind of a front to God's design for sex, but we're still thinking that way. And so I think it's critical. I've learned so much over the years of doing this ministry of how God needed to renew my thinking. We look at the topic of surrender like Romans 12, 1 and 2.
what's the first thing Paul says is your thinking has to be transformed. Don't be conformed to this world. Those are my favorite verses in the Bible because it has radically transformed me. Yeah. Yeah.
To not be through your mind. We will be conformed to the world unless we allow Jesus to transform our minds. And we won't know the difference if we don't know the word. We won't. We just don't know.
We just kind of swim in the water that we're in. We sort of buy it. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the other one?
Okay. Identity, obviously huge. Yeah. so the first one is self-discovery the second one is shame and there are a lot of christians who live in a shame identity around their sexuality like they can say to their friend or neighbor to blue in the face like god forgives you like he no longer holds that offense against you that abortion that relationship that pornography addiction like you can tell your neighbor that but when you ask them you look them in the eye do you believe that you're forgiven like i don't know i think i'll go to heaven but they they talk as if they're condemned to living with a cloud of shame julia i was just with a girl she's in her 30s she has kids she's married i mean just rough background in terms of rape, kidnapped, just so many things. And then she has a sexual past of a lot of different people.
And a lot of it was very traumatic before she was even 22 years old. And we were together, sitting together, and she said, I know in my head, biblically speaking, that God loves me, but never in my life have I felt that. All I feel is shame. I feel like I can't even approach God. I know I can biblically, where I stand biblically, according to the word, but in my heart, I can't even lift my eyes to him because of all that's been done to me, but all that I've done as well.
What would you say to that person? I'm sure you've had that same kind of story many times yeah and and i'm so glad that you brought that up too because we often feel shame not just for what we've done but what's been done to us yeah and so if you have a history of trauma or abuse any form of sexual assault you probably carry around with you even like messages of somehow it's my fault i deserved it my body responded therefore you know i must i must have liked it there's something wrong with me like these are all very common conclusions that we draw yeah I think you know thinking of your friend who shared all that with you it's not a one-time statement it's a trajectory yeah that is based on this and this is what I might say um do you know that you are not walking in integrity not because of your sexual sin but because you don't walk out and believe what you say you believe.
So you're carrying shame. Yeah. Like if we truly say Jesus is king and he died on the cross and he rose again to forgive my sin, but we walk in such a way that doesn't reflect that, we lack integrity. And it's not to add more shame, but it's a call. Like I think somehow the enemy gets us feeling that we actually please God by keeping self-condemnation and keeping us from his presence, that is not pleasing to God.
Like the greatest glory we can give to him is to act in accordance with the freedom that he's given. And so just that kind of challenge of what would it look like to walk fully in integrity of this statement that I know Jesus has forgiven me. Yeah. And let me walk with you. Let's find freedom together.
And then the process often involves uncovering the lies that are underneath that. And that's what we did that day of kind of uncovering some of those lies. And I'm sure there'll be many more conversations. But when we live with them so long, we don't see them as lies. No.
We see them as this truth. I've said it so often that now I'm believing the lie. And that lie has become, in my mind, the truth. Yeah. It's crazy how we just adapt to this.
This is the way it is. And so to identify it, to kind of go through it, to confess the lie that I've started believing about myself, even is really an interesting thing to watch people do. And in some ways, I don't want to speak for Ann. Maybe she won't even respond to this.
So I'm not going to look at her when I say it. You have carried that shame. Oh. From sexual abuse. Yes.
And the lie that there must be something about me. Yes. That is wrong that they did this. Oh, for sure. You carried that for a long time.
I didn't even know she was carrying it into our marriage. And she did. And, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I want you to respond, but I will add this. You know, when you brought up 2 Corinthians 5, I'm a new creature in Christ.
The old is gone. When we got married, I thought that meant, oh, her past and abuse, done. It won't affect anything. It's already healed. It's gone years ago.
And now we're new in Christ.
So the old is gone, new is gone. my sexual past and background and pornography, that's all done. Yeah. It won't have any effect today. Oh, how naive.
Oh my goodness. And again, we are new in Christ. We are redeemed. That's all true. But if you don't process that, it's going to wreak havoc in your identity, your soul, your marriage.
Julie. You don't see coming. We're in seminary and we start taking some classes on how to counsel people.
So of course, when you take those classes, it's all about yourself. It's all about, I start coming home and I had told Dave, hey, I wanted you to know before we get married that I've been sexually abused. Like, oh, okay. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine.
That was in the past.
So, you know, we get back in seminary and suddenly we've only been married two, three years. Two to three years. Yeah. I'm crying every single night. Crying like for the first time, grieving, never grieving, being angry.
and Dave is probably like, what is happening? I get affected every single area of my life and I can recall where I was with different people and by the time I was seven it had started at four I remember thinking when it happened again that time I thought oh it me There something wrong with me That why this is happening. I'm doing something. We didn't go to church. I knew nothing about God, but that shame level, it wasn't like something happened to me.
Now it became something's wrong with me. That's the level of shame that you're talking about too with people it affects every single area thank you for sharing that yeah it's yeah i mean it's and you said something and you said it feels like the truth yes and i think that's an aha moment for some people when they realize the truth often feels less truth than the lie yes and that's why it requires faith yeah that's good yeah and i you know then had no idea again i was naive and that's on me but i had no idea how this would affect our marriage not just her past and what she believed about it but then as we were married longer and longer my physical affection became more about sex and romance right which many wives have experienced that it's on us in some ways i know i'm saying And every husband's like me. I was clueless, but I wasn't holding her, kissing her, holding hands, non-sexual touch, affection like we had for many years.
So she's now feeling like, oh, when Dave touches me, it's about sex. Obviously connection. When I was touched as a girl, that was all it was.
So here I'm married to my husband and he's.
So many triggers. And I had no idea that I was doing that to her. And it was on me. I feel so bad. It was like.
Well, how would you know? I didn't know. Yeah. How would you know? And what you describe is what a lot of couples go through and they don't have words for.
So I'm thankful that you all are so transparent about it. But let me ask you, like, what were the rivers going on in your hearts at that time? Like the spiritual rivers of just where God was for each of you? I mean, my first thought is what we talked about earlier. I don't think I knew Jesus well enough to trust him.
So, you know, again, even as we got married, we're pretty new in Christ and we're in full-time ministry, you know, so we're daily ministering to people. But to turn like this area over and trust him, I just didn't know him well. Although I'd be standing on stages encouraging people to know Jesus. I don't think I knew him well enough yet to really surrender and say, he's good. He can be trusted with this dark area of our lives.
And, you know, here we are talking about it. Back then, we didn't talk to anybody. It was a secret. Yeah. Thinking we'll never share this out loud with anybody, even friends, because we don't have any answers and we're sort of stuck here.
And I'm not sure we're going to ever be intimate, not just sexually, but in our marriage, because we can't get through what you call a wall. Yeah. And so it had to be, like you said, it had to be full surrender. I want to know Jesus. I don't want to know about him.
I want to know him in a way that I feel comfortable to say, okay, I can. And I preach that often. Like I'm asking you to surrender. And I think a lot of you are going, I can't, because I don't know the person you really asked me to surrender to. And I get it.
Because if you don't understand, you're afraid. It's like a dad that's not that kind. Like, why would I lay my life in his hands? I don't trust him. I think for me, it became, I got to know Jesus well enough to say, okay, I'm going to trust with my sexuality and our brokenness and then ours together.
Is that what you would say? I think my river, I was all about surrender. When I gave my life to Jesus, it's like I'm all in. But it's that pocket we've been referring to, the sexuality part. It was so murky and muddy and gross.
I had given it to Jesus, but I didn't realize all that was going on in my head. it was like I constantly believe lies in terms of my self-talk was like uh you're you're how would I say it you're unworthy um you're a failure I mean constantly and it's it's not even I it's your your you're a failure you're not getting anything done well and on the outside if it looked like everything is awesome. I'm doing well in everything. You're a failure. You're fat.
You're ugly. All the same things over and over. I wouldn't ever tell anybody any of that. But that was my daily talk. And so the river was, I love you, Jesus, but I don't really believe what you said about me.
It says I'm a new creature and you're loving me. I can get that in my head. I just can't get it down here because I think I'm too unlovable to receive that.
So, Counseless, how are we doing? You guys are doing great now. I mean, but part of it is, you know, you go to a marriage seminar, and back then, where were you? You would define the problem as, Dave, like, you want sex and she doesn't, so fix us. And, you know, what I've learned over the years is we've gotten to get to these places of why does it mean so much to you, Dave, and what's happening in your heart when it's not, when your sex life isn't what you think it should be.
And what's going on with you, Anne? What's underneath all that? And where's God in that? And so there's so much richness when we talk about sexuality that way, because it's not just about sex anymore. It's about what is keeping us from the love of God.
It reveals the lies we believe, the way the enemy wants to build strongholds between us and the Lord. Julie, it's so funny. I can remember back in 19, I'm trying to think what year it was. People are like saying, you're saying 19? Yeah.
Not 20 something? It was 1989 because we started speaking at Family Life and it was the first time I had shared my abuse at a weekend to remember marriage conference as a speaker. Wow. Nobody was talking about it back then. Nobody.
She's a trendsetter. She is. She's courageous. She really was.
So nobody. Nobody. It was like.
But my sister was abused for a long time. I didn't even know it for years. Older sister. And I felt like she would say she and I both got together. She passed when she was 45.
But we both said we would go through it again, the abuse, if we could give people the hope of knowing that Jesus will set you free. And so I didn't know anything but to share my story of this is what happened. But Jesus is setting me free. It's not a one-time thing. It takes a while, but there's freedom in being able to verbalize what happened with somebody that I can trust.
And after I was done with saying that at that talk, there was a line so long of women saying, I've never shared that with anybody. And it's probably what broke your heart and what breaks God's heart of my daughters and my people are living in total captivity. and I've come to set them free. And so I think there's something beautiful that God wants to do if we'll turn our pockets inside out, you know, of allowing him to heal because I don't know if my surrendered prayer was that area. God, I don't know how to heal.
I don't know what to do with this, but I'm giving it to you. And when you say that, we don't have to be specific. get it exactly right when we surrender the beauty is that when we give our life to god he takes that and he's like okay i'm going to take you on this journey and i'm so thankful that god doesn't show us everything that's unsurrendered in a moment like we would be undone but as you're sharing like he led you like there were seasons of now it's time to tell the story now it's time to say these things out loud that you've been living with and the enemy has been tormenting you now it's time to seek my truth on this yeah you're right it's steps it kind of goes through baby steps it does he really does and where does he go right through the wound that's right right through the wound to the heart yeah i remember uh two years later i didn't even think about timeline but we just started our church in 1990. I'm one of the founders and we had a weekend service in a midweek and it was at a midweek, 91.
So we're maybe not even a year old yet. And I decided, I didn't tell my co-founder, I'm going to share my struggle with porn. Again, this is before digital. This is magazine type deal. And so I shared a bit of it to say, this is where I've been and I want to help men get the freedom through this.
So, and I'll never forget, I, before I stepped off the stage, my co-founder Steve was at the bottom of the steps and I'm like, oh boy, did I just violate something we'd never talked about? I went somewhere. Is he going to be like, dude, what do you, what do you, you know, you can't share that kind of stuff. You're a leader here. And I remember I stepped on the bottom step and he looked at me and he goes, you just changed the future of this community for good.
I go, what? He goes, this will no longer be a community where people hide. If one of their leaders isn't going to hide, I think people are going to be, feel like they can be heard and they can go to Jesus like you have. And I'm not kidding. The next month, every guy called me, wanted to meet and they come in one by one and they'd sit there, you know, they'd poke around.
I go, okay, I know you're struggling with porn. Yeah. Yeah. Can I talk to you? Because you said you were.
I'll never forget this one guy. He was the drummer in our band. I play guitar in a band. And Bruce comes in. It's like three weeks later, and he's just beating around the bush.
And finally, I go, Bruce, we're buds, dude. I know you're here. You're struggling with porn. He goes, no, not at all. I go, come on, man.
You don't have to lie. I've had 50 guys say they're struggling with porn. I know it. We can talk about it. Let's go.
He goes, no, actually, not at all. Not at all. I'm not lying, dude. I just gave my life to Christ. And I'm like, can you help me grow?
And I'm like, oh, thank you. It was like, finally. That's so funny. But I thought, you know, when she said all these women lined up, I had the same thing in this area. Like all these men lined up and they were like, okay, can this be a safe place?
Yeah. Not just to share my struggle, but to get on a journey to freedom. Right. Right. Is that what the church is supposed to be in the Christian community?
That's what you're about? Yeah. Both of your stories are so powerful. And what they represent is you cannot heal in hiding. You will never find freedom in hiding.
And if it's like, oh, no, it's me and God, like God didn't design us to heal that way. There's something powerful that happens when you step out into the light and you say the words. And that's what I mean, when you when you both spoke that out loud, like the enemy lost.
now there was a process then of walking that out right but that is like the first step and the other thing i want to say is you know and you shared a story of sexual trauma and abuse dave you have pornography struggle the opposite is also true where women are struggling with pornography and they feel like well it's okay for guys to struggle but where do i go as a woman and let me just tell you particularly in this younger generation about 50 of women are struggling with pornography 50 about yeah and this in the generation of like teenager to 35 it's a pretty significant struggle and then for men about maybe one out of every five men have been sexually abused so that's 20 and even with the me too movement women felt more free to say hey i've experienced this, but there's a lot of shame in men who have been sexually abused.
So it's not just always the stereotypical women struggle with this or men with this. Right, definitely. Yeah, but when communities can be those safe places to say, this is a secret thing I don't know how to bring before the Lord, you know, hey, this is a place to bring it. That's where we start to see real transformation and healing. I mean, if somebody's listening right now, it's that woman or that man, husband, wife, whatever a single person whoever's listening or watching hope you're watching um what would you say to them if they're like i have this secret in the dark yeah they haven't confessed it you just said when it's in the dark the dark winds when it comes in the light healing starts and by the way that's james five yeah confess your sins to one another that you may be forgiven no healed the forgiveness is vertical but the healing is horizontal yeah and they're thinking i've never told anybody and I don't think I should, what would you say?
Yeah, I would just say, take that one step, you know, go to somebody you trust, whether it's a good friend, somebody who's discipling you, a counselor and say it out loud. You know, I just interviewed somebody from my podcast who had this kind of story. Java with Julie. Yeah. Java with Julie.
Go and listen to it. statement she said 20 seconds of profound courage changed the course of my life oh that's good and it is a courageous really courageous step it is 20 seconds yeah and you don't have to do it perfectly just get it out and then god will show you the next steps after that i envision like a chain being broken when you do that like to confess it out loud because satan loves everything in the dark have you read anything about the sort of some of the college revivals happening yeah it's if do you know how they start no i watched an interview with jenny allen and we've had both jenny and jp putt on and she said you know we didn't really have much of a plan besides we were asked to come speak and i i may be getting somewhere wrong but it tended to be i was on stage and i felt like i need to tell them to tell their darkest secret to somebody right now she goes the floodgates open people who are turning to each other saying something out loud they've never said anybody and god started meeting people and people around the stage like i want to get baptized and they're like uh there's a pond over there the first one i think was texting it was in the dark can we go over there and they just started jumping in and ohio state just baptized 2 000 people and they all say the same thing the thing that seems to unlock something is the secret that I've been holding, I'm going to tell somebody.
So it's just what you just said. Let me just say this too. Like maybe you're listening and maybe you're a woman that's struggling with pornography or struggling in any area or a man.
Now I feel like, should I tell my spouse? Because now my secret burden is going to be their burden and it's just going to create so much strife and mistrust and all kinds of chaos. Is it worth it? Yes. Yes, it is.
but I'm going to qualify that. They often should not be the first person you tell. Tell somebody else first? Yeah. Like a brother to a brother and a sister to a sister?
Or a counselor. And the reason why is because when you tell your spouse and then the first person you tell, it's often cathartic. Like, oh, I got that off my chest. And now your spouse is left holding that. Yeah.
But when you've already told somebody else and started the healing journey, you can go to your spouse and clearly say, I know this is our burden together. I know this is breaking your heart, but I also want you to know that I'm already taking steps towards what it looks like to pursue wholeness. And then you can pursue wholeness together. But if you're just viewing it as, I've got to confess this is cathartic, I can get this off my chest and move on and not get help, you really are leaving your spouse feeling like they're holding something very heavy alone. And so get a plan in action.
You're saying that your plan can be as simple as I confess to my brother or sister in Christ. I have an appointment with a counselor or I'm getting in a group to address this or I found a counselor for us to go see together.
So that, yeah, it's going to blow things up. Often it does. and there's a long road to recovery but intimacy means no secrets yeah and same with the lord if we keep things compartmentalized and i'll give all of who i am except for this piece we're not going to have intimacy and the same thing is true in marriage and yeah i mean and i'm just thinking 40 years ago now 35 years ago the first person i told about my porn struggle we did it wrong and totally i told ann and i felt just what you said i'm like oh i just almost like vomited it out i finally said it i'm free now i can move on i look over and she's just yeah we wrote about this in vertical marriage a couple chapters on that very thing but she was crushed and then angry and then i didn't trust you and i hadn't told a man yet i was gonna yeah but i thought oh i should tell her first she's my soulmate she's my partner and in some ways that's somewhat true but i didn't realize i was just really doing that for me it wasn't for her i wanted freedom i went okay we're good right right and she's like i just now you just wait a wait i gotta carry this now i'm like yeah i don't have it anymore here you go but i think if it was a one-time thing it'd be different and you've dealt with this on your podcast julie so we can point people toward you but when it continues it's usually not an overnight fix like oh i told her now i'm great i'm not going to be tempted or look again when it became like okay now this is my pattern i'm hearing this you know often i don't even know what to do and by the time he tells me you know for the fourth time like well do we have to keep talking about me let's move on to another husband but i think in your podcast you deal with like if a spouse is really struggling how to get help because they shouldn't be in it alone. No, no. Yeah.
And the spouse needs help for their own journey of processing the trauma of that and what's true and how do I know if I trust and all the insecurities that come with that. I mean, what do you say to, because when you were talking earlier about surrender, I know we got two more identity traps. I know, I was going to say. I'm going to get there. But I had this thought earlier.
So you're surrendering your sexuality, yet you keep blowing it. Yeah. Whatever it is, I surrendered this, but here I am again. Yeah. And again, like you said earlier, it could be three months.
I haven't sinned in three months in this area. It could be six months, but here I am again. I thought I surrendered. I didn't. Or did I?
Do I resurrender? You know, that kind of thing, because I think that's the journey for a lot of people, especially in marriages, like Ann said, like, seriously, you're going to confess again? how many times do I have to hear this confession to believe that you really surrendered it yeah boy good question there's 18 questions in there I was pointing people to the job of Julie but you put her on the spot yeah I mean let me just briefly address that in terms of our relation with God I have that experience all the time Dave in other areas yeah yeah I mean like for me pride is a huge battle I mean huge me too Julie this is my year of killing the pride yeah And so I surrender it. I feel like I'm in a place of surrender. And then a few weeks later, it pops up again.
I mean, what's pride look like for you?
Now we're going to get my stuff, huh? You don't seem like a very prideful person. Let's put the camera on Julie. Counselors never get counseled. That'll be the next book.
There you go. That's the book you two should write together. You just said you both start with the pride girls. Yeah. I mean, we could go there.
That's a whole nother conversation, though. Yeah, okay. But regardless of what it is, some people struggle with being honest. And so they, we tell one lie, like, Lord, I surrender this. Does that mean you're never going to lie again?
It's going to be an ongoing battle. And through the power of the Holy Spirit and the process of surrender, it becomes less a battle. You become more aware of it. You know how to guard yourself against it. And sexuality particularly when you talking about some of the addictive elements of sexuality and pornography it a process And so the fact that you continue to struggle or even at times fall back into it doesn mean that you haven surrendered because surrender is ongoing Yeah.
But let me ask this. I got to press in one more. Do you think all sins are the same or do you think there's something uniquely different about sexual sin compared to other sins and i think even the new testament would tell you you know when you sin sexually you sin against your own body so there seems to be again i've thought i've thought about this theologically many times like there seems to be a deeper issue with sexuality sin than pride or you know uh not telling the truth every day again i'm not saying those all scenes are no i yeah first of all as you know as a pastor all sins in terms of us violating the righteousness of god are equally heinous right and when you look at what jesus said in the sermon on the mount like he took the worst of sin like it says don't murder your brother but if you hate your brother you call him a fool yeah like that's like murder and so jesus is sort of leveling the playing field in terms of our understanding of judging sin. And then it's interesting when you look at the seven things that God hates in Proverbs, you probably know them because you're a pastor, but none of them are sexual. You're right.
But a few of them are related to pride. But we have to look at 1 Corinthians 6 and say there's something profound there when Paul says, when you sin sexually, you sin against your own body and sex our sexuality is so integrated into everything of who we are even the cells of our body and our brain wiring that there is often greater consequence with our sexual sin that's a good way to say that hurts other people but also hurts us like people who've looked at pornography over the years you can be fully redeemed forgiven cleansed Surrender that, but you will probably continue to battle those images popping up when you don't want them anymore. And so the way we're wired is that our sexuality can be a profound blessing or when it's used against us in the term of abuse and assault or when we choose to sin sexually. And there's echoes of it that we continue to walk with.
So that's how I would answer that. But you were the pastor, Dave. No, I mean, that's one debated over centuries, over decades. Like there does seem to be, even have you ever heard this term, soul ties? Yeah.
Like if you have sex with somebody outside of your marriage, before, after, whenever, your soul is sort of tied to them because sex is soulish in nature. It's not just physical. It's not just emotional, spiritual. There's a soul connection at the deepest level. Have you ever heard that?
And what do you think? I have heard of it. I'm sure you have. I don't know if I'm a big fan of that term. I think that's sort of new agey.
But we do know biologically and neurologically that there is dopamine released and oxytocin that bonds you to someone. And so I think there are things to work through in terms of confession and letting go. And, you know, it's a profound experience. There's no such thing as casual sex. Yeah.
Boom. What do you mean? I just mean... I mean, I know what you mean, but I want people to hear that because so much of our culture says, oh, casual sex, no big deal. It's just the body.
Yeah, it's never just the body. You know, it always has profound impact on us, even at a neurological level.
So I think what scripture is telling us is take it very seriously. And be protective because it really does affect us.
Okay, we've hit two. Yeah, we have a lot more to cut.
Okay, talk about, is it performance? It's performance. What's that mean? Yeah. Here we get to go at another identity level here.
But with performance, I'm really more talking about the opposite of shame, which is sort of the pharisaical, like, I've done it right. I can earn God's favor by behaving sexually, by saying no to sin. Like, I can earn God's love. And I think a lot of people who grew up in a Christian home, like, this is one that I really identify with, was learning that I could— culture enter into that yes very much so yeah and that uh i'm a better person because i didn't sin sexually i'm a virgin i save sex for marriage and then a little another piece comes in which is called pride there you go i know yes knew we'd hit on pride right uh but and i think it's purity culture in there for sure but also you see this playing out for example you have a husband and wife one of them has a sexual past the other one doesn't yeah and one of them feels self-righteous and even like, why did you bring this into our marriage? I didn't bring anything into our marriage.
You see that, but also in church culture, I think the way the church talks about, for example, LGBT communities or even people who are prostitutes or sex workers, it's almost like they're the untouchables. Like we do it right and we're good and righteous and they're unrighteous. And God has really confronted me in my heart as I teach on this, you know, bringing up the story that he told about the Pharisee and the tax collector coming to the temple and how the Pharisee prayed, you know, oh God, I thank you that I'm not like other people. You know, I fast two times a week or whatever. And I'm putting that in modern day language of God, I'm so thankful that I'm not like these other people.
I've been married to my spouse for 30 years. I've kept sex and marriage. I don't struggle with pornography and we even thank god like the pharisee thanks god i thank you that i'm not like this other person and it even reminds me of the prodigal son and the older brother i've done everything yes right yeah so there's this this two there's always two people in jesus's stories there's a one who thinks that they have to earn god's love and they've earned it through behavior and there's a person who also thinks they have to earn god's love but no that they failed and jesus always says the one who's on their face confessing and repenting is closer to the kingdom of god and so the performance trap is if i don't do these things then i'm acceptable to god and he sees me in a better light than he sees the quote-unquote sinners and so i think this has to be a real shift in individual hearts it's part of the surrender process, but also corporately as a church, a posture of humility, of recognize our own brokenness, how far away we are from God's holiness and how dependent we are on him, which really gives us a different posture and grace and compassion when we talk about these issues in relationships or even as we engage in culture. Julie, I remember in my 20s, we came on staff with crew and I remember Bill Bright speaking and he would do this often where somebody had fallen in sin, a well-known name. And every time that would happen, I thought, oh, Bill's going to get in here and he's going to condemn this guy or warn us.
And every single time he said, he would say, apart from God's grace, that would be me. Apart from God's grace, I could fall tomorrow. And I'm like, no, you wouldn't, Bill, come on. No, you wouldn't. We know you.
But I think he really believed it. And I think it's true for all of us. Apart from his grace, that could be me as the prostitute on the street. And it gives you a different eye for them and a different compassion instead of that judgmental piece. Yeah.
That, man, we so easily throw that out. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I've learned through years and years of this ministry is the stories behind these labels. Like when you talk to individuals, you talk to the person who's transitioning gender.
You talk to the person who has been a prostitute. You hear the story of where they came from. And it becomes very real of the brokenness that led there. and the grace of God that I didn't experience the kinds of things that they experienced. But also knowing that my heart is just as wicked as anybody's heart.
Me too. So that's an identity trap with sexuality that we often don't recognize, but I think really flavors even how we interact with our kids or the next generation or just our neighbors. Yeah. Do you think there's a, because you do this every day. I mean, you've been living in this world thinking about these kind of this sexual topic, which a lot of us don't spend a lot of time in this area.
Do you think when there's a dysfunction sexually, whether it's a struggle that they can't win or transitioning genders, any of those areas, do you think I'll put a percentage on it? Do you think 100 percent of the time there's something broken in there? If you dig in, you'll go, oh, like you just said. But I pointed to, is it always?
Well, it always is. And it's with us too. Even if you don't. Oh, yeah. I often make the statement, we are all sexually broken.
All. Come on. Yeah. Not most. All.
Except for Jesus. That would be it. Yeah. Jeez. Yeah.
I mean, we all have. I don't know if that's depressing or encouraging. It's probably both. Yeah. Yeah, right.
But it's leveling. Yeah. In that, have you believed lies about sex? have you been wounded have you acted out sexually or had immoral sexual thoughts have you ever objectified people sexually or been objectified it's like okay all we're we're all there when we were in seminary uh it was just the wives this was going to be a really hard class for me because they were bringing in a man that was in prison for abusing some little girls. And so he has been sentenced for so many years and they were allowing him to come to speak to our class.
So I was just starting to deal with my own stuff.
So I'm like, this is going to be so triggering for me. And it happened just as you said, Julie, we started asking him questions about his life growing up and the abuse that he endured sexually was so horrific that I sat in the class and just cried. And I did think like, if we don't deal with our past sexual trauma, it will definitely deal with us along the way somewhere. But it gave me compassion of like, wow, there's always a story behind the story. There is.
Yeah. Can you win sexually without dealing with the stuff? No. In the past? No, because you're not surrendered.
Yeah, I was at a conference just recently, and one of the guys on stage just told this porn story. I don't know the guy, just boom, he's actually in the band. And, you know, blah, blah, blah, and his marriage and how it affected him. And he was sort of addicted. And the conclusion was, one day in the car, I realized I'm going to lose everything.
And I repented and told God, I'm going to surrender my sexuality. And we're good now. and if I'd known the guy I would have gone up and go are you really good did you ever deal with the root of it there's a root there's something there maybe he did yeah maybe he just didn't add that to the story but I remember I had this skeptical thought like if you didn't get to the root you are controlling your behavior a little better but eventually that head's going to raise up and you're going to find yourself falling again unless am I right you gotta get to underneath what's going on yeah you're absolutely right finally I'm right good job And I think that's the danger, honestly, of most of the testimonies that we hear about sexuality are 20 minutes. And it makes it sound like I confessed my affair. We went to counseling.
We're good. When you hear the longer versions of these stories, they are so messy and God's in the mess. But it is not linear. It's not like, oh, I confessed and it was all great since then. And it was, wow, we had to trudge through some really hard things.
That's reassuring, I think, for listeners, for us to hear. I know with my sexual abuse, I felt like after, you know, six years, like, I'd get triggered by something else. And that meant to me, like, oh, there's something else that God wants to heal. Right. And I'm like, really, Lord, we're not done yet?
But he's like, no, I love you so much. I'm not going to do it all at once. I need to take bits at a time. That's what it felt like. But it was so gracious of him.
And I would have liked to have been, don't we all want it to be overnight a healing and a fix? And I'm not saying God can't do that. But generally speaking, it takes a while. Yeah. I remember asking somebody who had, you know, full on sexual addiction and this long recovery process, who now is in ministry, like, why do you think God takes so long?
And he talked about the intimacy that's formed on that journey. You know, God could just zap you. And the memories are gone. The addiction is gone. But the process of recovery means inviting him into all those memories and all that temptation and all the wounds.
And that's where intimacy is formed.
So I can't tell you how many people you ask for stories. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, I would never want to go back and repeat what happened. But I'm also so thankful it did because I wouldn't know God the way I know him. Yes. Yeah.
out of our desperation and need. And yet we want to know God like that without the pain. I mean, people come up to us sometimes, we want your marriage, like, okay, you don't want the trauma that God is here. I want to ask one last thing about performance. I still got that in my mind.
Why is it, at least my, you know, awareness of watching us as Christians that we highlight our sexual purity that we're winning in this area to such a level that we're performing, like you said earlier, we're here and we judge others that aren't. Why do we do that with this area? Because we could be winning sexually, surrendered sexually, and yet be lying, be mean to people, all these other things, and think, we're good. We didn't even talk about the other stuff. Even when we sat down for pre-run counseling, you having sex?
No?
Okay, good. We didn't say, hey, are you cheating on your taxes? Are you a man of your word? We didn't even ask that. You know, it's like, is your promise, is it good?
but you're not having sex, okay? You know what I'm saying? We highlight it to such the important, and again, it is important, but have we done that? Have we made it the ultimate? I think we have.
Yeah? I really do, yeah. And it's a good question. It's a good observation. See, I got another good question, huh?
Yeah, there you go. Ding, ding, ding. I'm winning today. You are, buddy. But I think we see it as a pass-fail test.
Oh, that's it.
So we don't see it as a progression of surrender or discipleship. discipleship we we look only look at behavior yeah because nobody asks you about your attitude towards your spouse with sex or about how you think about your sexuality it's all did you do this did you not do this right and so it's become kind of a behavior litmus test of did i even with parents did i did i pass as a parent or fail right based on how my kids are behaving i am so impressed with how smart you are. Like, you know this area. Honestly, isn't it crazy? She takes all my dumb questions and she turns them to something good.
No. Your questions are great. They are good questions. And I've been studying this for 13 years. But still.
If you study anything for 13 years, you learn. Yeah. But honestly, really, if God calls you to something, He gives you what you need.
So I'm just dependent on Him to... It's really good. ...give me wisdom. Not just, not for me, but for Christians who are so confused and struggling. Oh, what a gift you are.
You are a gift.
So we've only hit our... Three out of four. That's right. We have relationship left. Yes.
What's that mean? Relationship is the identity lie that I am only somebody if somebody loves me. And a lot of this, I think, even can play off of our attachment wounds growing up, where let's say you didn't have a good relationship with your dad. And as a woman, then you believe I need to have a man who affirms me or who loves me. Or, you know, they're all different iterations of this, but it is the lie that I become valuable because somebody notices me, somebody loves me, somebody wants to spend their life with me.
And romance, marriage, like that's all a gift, but it's never, it was never intended to be who we are and to complete us. I wonder what percentage of marriages fall into that. Yeah. Into what? This whole relationship trap of thinking, I'm going to find this through them.
Yeah. It kind of, it will heal the wound of this past. And singles. Yeah. You know, like even going through this book with the pilot study, like one woman who was married talked about the pressure that she felt to get plastic surgery because I need my husband to want me.
Yeah. And to see me as beautiful. Like, I don't know who I am if I don't have that. But with singles, like the prospect of being single for another year and having people ask you, are you dating somebody? Have you found someone?
Like every time you say no, it's like no one's chosen me.
So this goes deep for a lot of people and can really be a place where, you know, if God is good, he'd bring me someone because then I could be somebody. instead of seeing marriage as the gift that it is on top of the completion of who we are in Christ. Boy, that's huge. Wow. Julie, what haven't we hit that you're like?
That was going to be my next question. I want to ask it so you say, hey, that was a good question. Like, is there something... Welcome to my life. Is there something we haven't covered?
There's a lot. I don't know. Seriously? I mean, that is only two chapters of the book. That is amazing.
We have talked, I don't know how long, but a long time, And we've only covered two out of what? Nine chapters? Ten chapters? Eleven. How many are there?
Eight? I think it's eight chapters. It's eight? Yeah. Yeah.
Give us one we should hit. That's going to make people buy this book. It should be in every person's library.
So Julie's book is called Surrendered Sexuality. And I've just said this before, but I'm going to say it again. Every person should have this in their library because it's a great resource that every single person needs. I think. Oh yeah.
Wherever you get your books, go get a bunch. Don't just get one. Because this is the kind of book that you don't just read for yourself. I think parents need it. Man, what a great thing for a church.
Yeah. I hope it doesn't stay in people's libraries. Yeah. They need it in their library, but you should be going through it. I'm thinking this would be a great book to go through with women.
For me, like to go through, I'm thinking of some women in my mind right now to go through. Talk about deep conversations. That's really why I wrote it because I wanted people to have a tool to go through in community or in mentoring, discipling of what is it step-by-step look like to surrender this piece of my life to Jesus. That's my next question. I have a question that we're going to, we're going to save for the, the monthly donors.
Yeah. This is going to be, if you're like, I want to know what this question is, you just brought it up. I'm going to tease you. It has something to do with sexual discipleship. Become a monthly partner.
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