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Hi, I'm Rob West. God is extraordinarily generous, and our churches should be too. However, helping low-income people often requires going beyond meeting their material needs. Dr. Brian Ficker joins us today to talk about how your church can help the poor in ways that lead to lasting change. And then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.
That's 800-525-7000. This is faith and finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, we're delighted to have Brian Ficker back with us today. He's professor of economics and community development and the founder and president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. Brian is also the co-author of the best-selling book, When Helping Hurts, How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor and Yourself. Brian, great to have you back with us. Oh, it's so great to be with you folks again today.
Thank you. Brian, this is such a key topic. We hear about it so often from church lay leaders and pastors wanting to know how can we be a blessing to those in our community who are in a desperate situation through a benevolence ministry. Why is it so important for us to take perhaps a fresh look at how these ministries operate? Well, because so often they're just not working very well, to be honest with you. You know, oftentimes churches feel overwhelmed by the needs in their communities.
They're not really sure what to do, and they feel frustrated because, you know, they've tried some things in the past and it doesn't feel like it's worked at all, and so the whole situation just seems kind of helpless. And so, we've got to find a better way to do this thing. Yeah, there's no doubt about it, and we kind of hear that in people's voices all the time when they call and ask about this, and I know your goal is really to change the way people think and act with regard to benevolence ministries. So, before we get into some of the details, what are your guiding principles in this area? Yeah, there's so many things, but I think if I had sort of one message to try to get across today, it would be this. We're all in this together. You know, whether we're conscious of it or not, most of us come at this question of benevolence from a framework of superiority.
I'm okay, they're not okay, and it's my job to fix them. But, you know, the biblical story is just different from that. The biblical story says that all of us are image bearers of the triune God. That's true whether we're rich or poor, white or black, educated or illiterate, we're all image bearers of God Almighty. And so, each one of us has inherent dignity and worth as that image bearer. Because then, of course, the fall happens.
And, you know, it's interesting. I don't think that the church right now is doing a very good job of understanding the fall. You know, there's a tendency for us to reduce the effects of the fall to either, you know, broken individuals or broken systems. That's a huge controversy that's dividing the church and, quite frankly, the country right now.
But the Bible actually gives us a very clear answer to this. The fall is comprehensive in scope. So, it does break systems, and it does break us inside of ourselves. We're sinners, and there's more. Because of the fall, demons are given greater latitude in the created order. And so, you know, Ephesians 2, the first several verses, we could summarize saying, you know, as the church has said for centuries, that the fall has pitted the world, the flesh, and the devil against us.
And so, the fall is comprehensive. And for some of us, this brokenness due to the fall bubbles up in material poverty. For other people, this comprehensive brokenness bubbles up in different ways. And so, I'm not materially poor, but I've got brokenness from the fall that manifests itself in different sorts of ways. So, for example, you know, I have strong tendencies towards being a workaholic.
Well, that doesn't result in my material poverty, but it results in other kinds of problems, anxiety, for example, and the effects of anxiety even on my body. And so, we're all broken. We're all in this together.
It just bubbles up in different ways. The good news of the Gospel is that there's redemption, that Christ's healing brings redemption as far as the curse is found, repairing broken systems, broken individuals, and destroying the work of Satan. That's well said. We're going to apply that to benevolence programs and get into some of the practical details of how your church can approach this right now.
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That's faithandinvesting.com. Brian Fickert is the founder and president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. Brian, before the break you were kind of setting the stage for these benevolence ministries that so often, where churches want to help, just can't figure out how to do that in a way that's loving and that's lasting. So, how should they be thinking about church benevolence ministries? You know, one of the most common questions that we get at the Chalmers Center is this. A person comes into our church asking for help with their electric bill or with money to put gas in their car.
Should we give them the money or not? That's an important question. I understand that question. It's a situation that all of our churches face all of the time.
We've got to have answers to that question. But I'd suggest to you that the question reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of material poverty and what the solution to such poverty looks like. You know, Western civilization has kind of enculturated all of us to think in very transactional terms. If my hair is too long, I pay somebody to cut my hair. If I'm hungry, I pay a restaurant to feed me. If I want to watch the Green Bay Packers, I pay for an online subscription. So, if I don't want this person to be poor anymore, well, I'll give them money.
I'll pay them to not be poor anymore. We're very transactional. But the human being is actually a very relational creature. You know, the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is a relational being. And we are deeply wired for relationship as well with God, with ourselves, with others, and with creation. And so, God places human beings in a habitat that's conducive to human flourishing. It's the Garden of Eden.
God dwells there. We have intimacy with God, relationship with self, dignity, relationship with others, deep communion between Adam and Eve, relationship with creation, be fruitful and multiply, increase in number, subdue the earth. Eden is the habitat in which the relational creature can flourish. Now, of course, the fall happens, and so we're cast out of Eden. And it's really interesting, the entire storyline of Scripture is about how can we get back into the habitat of Eden? The image in Revelation 21 is an image of Eden restored. And the local church is supposed to be a foreshadowing of that. And so, should we pay for the electric bill?
Well, you know, I don't know. The point is to help people experience Eden restored. Another way of thinking about it is the local church is the family of God. And so, there should be love, presence, acceptance, community, support, accountability. We're inviting people into a family, into a different habitat, where they can experience all that it means to be human.
And so, this sort of transactional approach doesn't really even come close to what it's going to take to actually help restore people to what it means to flourish as an image bearer. Let me give you an example. You know, imagine your child is in junior high school, and they come home every day bleeding because a bully on the playground has beat them up. There's blood dripping out of their nose, and there's tears running down their cheeks, and they're ashamed, and they're embarrassed. They're not sure what to do.
Their self-image is in the tank. They're physically hurting. They don't know what to do. And you reach in your wallet and give them $20 and say, they're solved. Well, that's not going to solve the problem because what's going on there is so much more comprehensive that the $20 is, quite frankly, kind of insulting. And that's what our benevolence policies often look like. People come in bleeding and hurting and from all kinds of issues, and we're asking ourselves, should we give them $20 or not? It's really a far more fundamental set of issues that can't be solved with simply a handout. Yeah, that's really helpful, Brian. And clearly, that's what folks want. And this is hard work, what you're describing.
Characterize examples of where you've seen this working and done well. What does it look like? Yeah, it really looks like welcoming people into our families. So imagine that your family is having dinner some night and somebody knocks at the door and you invite them in and they have dinner with you. And it's not just about the food. It's about being together. It's about community. It's about people being known and seen and heard. And when dinner is over, you invite them to stay around and perhaps play a game with you and your family.
And then you invite them to come back a couple nights later. It looks more like that. It's welcoming people into a supportive community that's going to walk with them across time. It's about relational ministry. And folks, this is profoundly difficult. It's time consuming. And the irony in all of this is that Americans who are the richest people on the face of the earth throughout all of human history, in many ways, are the least capable people in the world of actually helping people in material poverty. Because we don't have time.
We don't have time for what it takes to actually develop community for ourselves and to welcome others into that community. Yeah, it's really helpful, Brian. And I'm sure there's many listening right now saying, boy, I would love that type of transformational benevolence ministry in my church. I just don't even know where to begin to start to build that out. And I know at the Chalmers Center, you all have put that together in the form of an online training class. So describe that program for our listeners. Yeah, it's a course called Helping Without Hurting in Benevolence Ministry. And we've seen God use this course to really help churches to transform their benevolence policies and processes. And so what we do is we walk you through the process of laying the foundation for your ministry, gathering a team to help you, creating processes and procedures to provide that kind of family support that's actually needed.
So there's six online sessions. We walk you through some foundational ideas that are, quite frankly, theological in nature, and then through some very practical steps to revise your approach, to revise your policies and procedures, to bring along a team of supportive people to create that family we were talking about. And Brian, as you've talked to churches who have deployed this type of benevolence ministry, what are you hearing back from them in terms of the big win and opportunity to approach this in a completely different way? Yeah, the big win is mutual transformation, that as we start to really dive deep into a more biblical understanding of what a human being is, of what the fall has done to us, and of the good news of the gospel, that while we were enemies of the cross, Christ died for us, that we were all alienated from God, and that through no righteousness of our own, we've been brought back into God's family, and we start the process of healing, that's a mutually transformative story. And so I have found it personally very transformative, and I continue to do so as I come to understand the depths of my own brokenness and the good news that God really loves me no matter what, all of the time, with a never-ending love.
And so it's a mutual transformation kind of process. Oh, it's powerful, Brian. Well, I so appreciate you stopping by today. I know this resource is going to be a wonderful blessing to those out there listening who want this type of benevolence ministry in their own church. Grateful for your work, sir, and thanks for your time today.
Thanks so much, brothers. That's Brian Fickert, founder and president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College. To learn more and to access this course Brian mentioned, go to chalmers.org. That's Chalmers, C-H-A-L-M-E-R-S.org.
Back with more after this. And interact with a community of like-minded believers where you can ask questions, get answers, and share what you're learning. Go to faithfi.com and click the word app to get started. Every day we hear life-changing stories from listeners just like you who see money and possessions as tools to invite more people into God's kingdom. Instead of chasing wealth, you've chosen to embrace God as your source of love and provision. At Faithfi, we're passionate about meeting people where they live and work through our national radio program, app, resources, and website to influence widespread positive change in our culture. Please consider becoming a monthly partner at faithfi.com slash give. Great to have you with us today on faith and finance for taking your calls and questions today. 800-525-7000 is the number to call.
It's 800-525-7000. Let's go to Grand Rapids, Michigan. Hi, Dave. Go ahead, sir.
Yeah, Rob. Thank you for your ministry. I appreciate it very much. I've been a listener for a long time, Larry Burkett, for many years, and of course you and others through the years. And I've always been on the straight and narrow of staying out of debt, getting out of debt, and I've had a really good life, me and my family, because of it. So you guys helped me keep that way on the straight and narrow when I wanted to buy things I didn't need. Excellent. Glad to hear it. I got to give you credit.
But anyway, Rob, I'll make my questions quick so you can get to other callers, too. I'm going to retire. I've only got about two months to go before I retire, and so then I've got around $7,000 that I'm going to draw with my pension. And so then I can draw Social Security, too. I'm 63. I haven't drawn it yet. And also when I retire, I can draw $100,000 in annuity.
So I wondered where to put that. And I tell my wife, we don't need the Social Security that we should wait because I've listened to your program before, and that's always what you seem to say. But me and my wife are kind of debating on this. She thinks I should draw it right away because of the family history of our health. You know, a lot of them die younger, and yet I'm 63 and in good health, and I feel like that I should wait. But I wonder what your input is on that.
Yeah, very good. Well, the breakeven age, depending on whether you take it early, or if you're so you've got to calculate, okay, if you wait till, let's say age 70 versus full retirement age, or you wait till, you know, full retirement age versus age 62, when you can start, I mean, each of those would result in a different breakeven point. But generally, you know, we're talking about age 80 to 82, for those folks who, you know, start taking it at age 70, you know, versus full retirement age. And the way that breaks down is, let's just say, for example, your benefits at full retirement age of 66 would be 2000 a month, and at 70, you receive $2,640.
So that's 32% more. So between, you know, during those four years, you would have received $96,000 in benefits, and it's going to take you until age between 80 and 81 to get paid back for the 96,000 you didn't take through the higher benefit amount, and then your money ahead. So you know, I mean, that's the challenge here is no one knows. And so that's why we say, okay, with people living longer, as long as you've got, you're in good health, you've got longevity on your side, and you're saying, Well, maybe I don't, but you're in good health, you just know that your dad passed away earlier than you expected. You've just got to decide, number one, do we need the money right now?
And if the answer is yes, well, then that's simple, we need to go ahead and take it. If we have the luxury of waiting, then it comes down to really, okay, how long are we going to live? Well, none of us know the day or the hour the Lord is going to call us home. But with, you know, if you're in good health, and you're already at 65, you have a pretty good likelihood, just based on, you know, what we know about life expectancy that you're going to live to, you know, 8081 82 at the most. And that's the point at which you'd enjoy this higher check for the rest of your life. So I think, you know, you can get pretty specific about this, in order to determine the breakeven age, and then you and she just need to decide, you know, would we rather take it now?
Or do we feel like it's wise to go ahead and wait and take it later? Because, you know, we believe that the likelihood of us living or me living to 80 to 82 is pretty good. Does that make sense? Yes, Robin, I was gonna ask you, so you got, you know, when you can draw it at the beginning, and of course, when you when it, you know, it's the full amount, but you can go anywhere in between if you feel like it to write like a medium. And so maybe my wife will compromise on that and say, Okay, I'll meet you halfway on that. Yeah, no, that's right. And, you know, I think that would be, you know, an interesting question to ask, which is, yeah, so you're, when are you considering taking me?
You're 63 now, right? Yes, I am. Robin, like you say, we everything's paid for. So we don't need it. It's just she thinks we're better off to take the money and then invest it and then come out farther that way is what she was thinking.
Yeah, okay, I see. So then it comes down to can we earn 8% a year guaranteed in the market? And we can't right now, is there a possibility we could do better than 8%?
Absolutely. Is there a possibility we could do worse for sure. So the nice thing about the Social Security is you've got that guaranteed increase of 8%, which you're not going to find anywhere else.
There is no investment on the planet that's going to guarantee you 8%. So I think that's, you know, the issue we have here is that, you know, you've got the known versus the unknown. And I think for most people in this season of life, again, if they can do it, and if they believe that they have good health, and it's a worthwhile risk to say, I think I'm going to live into my early 80s, then you know, most people will say, Okay, that guaranteed 8% is just not something I want to give up.
But it doesn't mean it's the right answer for everyone. I think you all need to decide, you know, what's the best option for you? Yep, yep.
Thank you for that, Rob. And the other question I had, and I'll be done is just that $100,000. When I draw my pension, I can get $100,000 in annuity, and I can draw that $100,000 out. Where should I invest that? Yeah. And so I would say, you know, roll that over to an IRA, and then just hire an advisor to manage that for you. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. And then to the extent you guys whenever you decide to take social security, you know, if you've got additional funds available, because you've got more surplus now, you know, then maybe open a second account with that advisor and, and start funding that account with your surplus. But I love the idea of you guys being able to be free to follow the leading of the Lord and whatever he has for you in this season, not having to kind of think about have any kind of anxiety over where are we investing in? And should we be in the market? Is it time to get out? What about the recession? Just turning that over to an advisor to manage that for you, I think would be ideal.
If you don't have one, you could connect with a CKA there in Grand Rapids. There's a bunch of them. Well, thank you for that, Rob and your ministry. You guys kept me on the straight and narrow and it's turned out to be a good life because of it.
So thank you for that. Well, I appreciate you mentioning the late Larry Burkett. And you know, it's amazing to me that I mean, Larry died in 2003.
Here we are in 2024. And people still every week mentioned Larry and the impact he had on them. It's amazing. And I'm grateful for that testimony and the legacy that I've had the privilege of being a small part of. But what was the biggest thing you took away from Larry? It sounds like it was just living simply and modestly.
Yeah, so it was, you know, if you don't need it, don't buy it. And just remember to keep, you know, what extras you have for the kingdom. What are you living for? You know, are you living for yourself?
Or can you put back into his kingdom? Because when you die, you're not going to be so concerned about the fact that you had millions or piles. What did you do for God? You know, that's what I got from Larry Burkett. What are you chasing, right? What are you living for?
I love it, Dave. That's a great thought. Something we all need to be considering at every season of life. What is it we're ultimately living for?
Is it the temporal or is it the eternal? And obviously, God needs to be our ultimate treasure. Larry made that clear every day, and I hope we're continuing that message. Hey, Lord bless you, my friend. Thanks for being on the program today. All the best to you and your wife as you enter this really exciting season of your life. God bless you. Big thanks to my team today. Autumn doing a great job on our phones.
Devin, my producer, and of course, Jim Henry providing great research. Come back and join us tomorrow. We'll see you then. Bye-bye.
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