Poverty: More Than a Lack of Resources With Brian Fikkert

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That's GiveShoesToday.org. The dictionary defines poverty as having little or no money or possessions and no means of getting them. Hi, I'm Rob West.

That definition of poverty is certainly true as far as it goes, but there is more to poverty than a lack of resources. Brian Fickert certainly thinks so, and he joins us today to talk about it. Then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000.

That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith and Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey. Well, our guest today is Brian Fickert, professor of economics and community development and the founder and president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. Brian is also the co-author of the bestselling book, When Helping Hurts, How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor and Yourself. Brian, really great to have you back with us.

So wonderful to be with you again today. Brian, in your book, you write about how the Allied powers established the World Bank to rebuild a shattered Europe after World War II. How can that lesson inform us about treating poverty today?

Yeah, it's a great example. You know, the World Bank pumped money into Europe after World War II and was able to help Europe rebuild very quickly. And then the World Bank said, you know what, let's try the same thing in the majority world of Africa, Asia and Latin America and pumped in a lot of money and the results weren't as good as they had been when they pumped money into Europe. And the issue is that the underlying conditions were different. On the surface, things look the same, you know, a lack of infrastructure, devastated economies and so on.

But the underlying conditions were very different. And the same is true when we work with individual people who are poor. I think we can all sense there's something different between a person who's homeless on a street corner in an American city and perhaps a person who is poor as a result of a tsunami that's devastated their country. Both parties are lacking adequate food, clothing and shelter, but the underlying conditions are different. We've got to do is ask what's going on underneath and stop focusing on the symptoms of a lack of clothing, a lack of food or lack of housing.

Yeah. So what are some of those distinctions that can really help us determine the best way to provide assistance? You know, it's really difficult. It takes a lot of discernment. But one of the things we should ask ourselves is why is this person in this situation?

What's going on underneath? And, you know, the World Bank did that a number of years ago. They actually went around the world and asked tens of thousands of people who were materially poor, what does poverty look like to you?

And they were shocked to find out that the answers were things like this. I feel less than human. I feel shame. I lack dignity. I don't feel like I'm really part of the team. I feel like I'm ignored by society.

I feel like I have no voice, no agency. And so what the World Bank realized was that we tend as Westerners to think of poverty in material terms, a lack of some material thing. And certainly it is that. But the poor experience poverty in far more social, psychological and even spiritual ways that have to do with their sense of who they are, their relationship to the larger world and their sense of ability to impact the world around them. It's a different set of issues. Well, Brian, that's helpful and really heartbreaking at the same time. So what then is poverty and why are definitions so important?

Yeah, let's start off with the second question. Why are definitions so important? You know, when you go to the doctor, the first thing the doctor does is try to diagnose what's wrong with you. If the doctor misdiagnoses what's wrong with you, he can give you the wrong treatment and you might get worse instead of better. Or what if the doctor focuses on symptoms rather than underlying causes? That can actually really kill you. Imagine going to the doctor and say, I've got a headache.

The doctor gives you a couple of aspirin and the headache goes away. But what if you actually had a brain tumor? So treating the symptoms rather than the underlying causes can actually kill you. So we've got to get the diagnosis correct. The same is true when we work with people who are poor. We've got to get the correct diagnosis and we have to stop treating symptoms rather than underlying causes. So getting the answer to the question, what is poverty, is absolutely fundamental.

Well, there's no question that it is. And just around the corner, we'll get that definition of what is poverty. We'll also talk about how you can help. We know that you want to do more to help those in need to care for the poor.

That's clearly on the heart of God in scripture. How can we do that in a way that's life-giving and actually solves the underlying issues and not the symptoms? We're joined today by Brian Fickert.

He's professor of economics and community development and the founder and president of the Chalmers Center at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. We're talking about alleviating poverty without hurting the poor. And we'll continue that just around the corner.

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Visit giveshosetoday.org and find out how you can provide shoes for a child right now. So grateful to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. My guest today is Brian Fickert. He's professor of economics and community development and the founder and president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development at Covenant College.

You may know him for his best selling book, When Helping Hurts, How to Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor and Yourself. Brian, before the break, we were talking about not treating the symptoms when we're helping those in a desperate situation, but really addressing the whole person, the underlying issues and the importance of that. Brian, you finished by saying it's important that we understand, at least through the lens of scripture, what is poverty. So define that for us in light of God's word. Thanks so much for that question.

It's really important. What we try to do in our work is go back to the biblical story, starting with Genesis chapter one, because understanding what the human being actually is, what the human being is created to be, is really the issue. And we think that what the Bible teaches is that human beings aren't just physical creatures who just need more physical things. Rather, we're a highly integrated creature that is a body and a soul and a relational creature. God is inherently a relational being, and he's wired us in his image. And so we're hardwired for relationships with God, with ourselves, with others, and with the rest of creation. And of course, the fall happens, which distorts all of those relationships and distorts our bodies and our souls. And so when we are working with a person who is materially poor, we should ask ourselves, what's going on here? Is it primarily a physical condition because there could be health issues? Is it a spiritual condition?

Is it a relational condition? Because materially poor people, just like all of us, are suffering from the effects of the fall on our bodies, our souls, and our relationships. Yeah, that's so helpful. Now clearly God's Word directs us to care for the poor, so let's get really practical, Brian. How can Christians do that more effectively than by just sending money or material things? Yeah, so you can't solve what are typically relational problems with money. You know, imagine your child comes home from junior high and says, you know, I got beat up on the playground today, and you open your wallet and hand them $10.

That's not going to solve the problem, okay? So what we have to do is walk with people who are materially poor in highly relational ways to help them to rediscover the relationship with self, dignity, relationship with others, community, relationship with creation, being stewards over creation, having the ability to unfold and impact the created order through work. And ultimately all this has to be rooted in a deep relationship with the triune God, and so it's a relational approach.

It's walking with people across time. I don't want our audience to hear that they should stop giving money. In fact, my suggestion is that you write far bigger checks than you've ever written before, but write them to organizations that are working with poor people in highly relational ways that help them rediscover who they are as image bearers of God almighty. Some organizations do that well and some don't. Hmm.

Well, that's so helpful. Now, clearly there's a spontaneous element to this often where we feel the prick of the Holy Spirit. We see somebody in need. We want to help. The most tangible way we can think of is just to hand them some money. And we, of course, don't know what the underlying root issues are related to that person we see that might be homeless or otherwise.

So how would you help us think about that? Yeah, typically pray hard. You know, the most difficult situation is when we are approached by a person who is homeless on a street corner. That's quite frankly the hardest situation because there seems to be an immediate need and they're expressing an immediate need, and we don't really know what's going on. And so what I typically do is just pray for discernment. That doesn't always get me the answer I need.

If a person is able-bodied, they look like they're able-bodied and they're not in a crisis, I will typically refer them to an organization in my city that I know does good work and so you have to kind of do your homework ahead of time. Once in a while, if it's super cold out and I think the person might really be destitute, I will then give money. And I know it's not going to solve all the problems, but it'll buy time. You know, buy time until the next day. And so it depends on, quite frankly, what's happening in the environment.

What's happening is, is it cold? Just by assessment, does the person look able-bodied or not? Those kinds of things. Sure. How can we actually do harm inadvertently? Yeah, so often, you know, I mentioned at the beginning of our dialogue here that one of the primary features of material poverty is a sense of shame, a loss of dignity, a sense of incapacity. And so when we rush in with lots of resources and we take over in situations, it actually exacerbates the very problem that poor people are already experiencing, that they're less than human, that they can't do anything, that they need outsiders to fix them. This is particularly problematic in the majority world of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, where the worldview that people are coming out of is a worldview of traditional religion, which says that human beings aren't actually in charge of the created order.

demonic forces are. And so when we rush in with lots of outside resources and power and instructions, we actually can add to the problem in the very process of trying to help people. And so we need to use far more empowering approaches. If we're working internationally, quite frankly, it's very difficult for us as Americans who are not there to be able to do this in relational and empowering ways. And so what we want to do really is find local organizations that are doing good work and support them. They're the front lines of ministry, not us. So support them. Be willing to take a backstage role. If you want to go on a short term trip, that's great. But go to encourage those who are there over the long haul, not to try to put yourself on center stage.

That's really helpful. It strikes me. It's all about intentionality. You know, you've got to do the legwork to find the organizations to find somebody in your backyard who's doing great work in the name of Jesus to have that coat on hand in your car that you could hand off or go get one and come back. I mean, these are things that take time.

And yet, I think clearly it's on the heart of God. And so it's it's a worthwhile endeavor. Brian, before we wrap up today, I know you all are doing some incredible work there through the Chalmers Center for Economic Development. And you have resources for those who want to be able to help in this area.

Explain a bit about what's available. Yeah, the Chalmers Center is trying to help God's people to adopt a more biblical paradigm for poverty alleviation and to engage in more effective practices towards that end. And so if you go to our website, you'll see a host of resources there. We've got books, we've got online courses, we've got live training events. Regardless of whether you're trying to help people who are materially poor in the United States or around the world, you'll find quite a few resources there to help you.

Very good. And if somebody wanted to get their church connected and perhaps offer as a part of a benevolence ministry, you have resources for that as well? We do. We have actually a book called Helping Without Hurting and Church Benevolence. And of course, an online course by the same name. And so we've got people all over the country walking together through a training process in which they learn more effective strategies for helping that person who walks in off the street asking for help with his or her electric bill. That's the situation everybody faces.

And what you do in that moment really flows out of your answer to the question, what is poverty? Wow, that's so helpful. Again, that website, Brian? Chalmers.

C-H-A-L-M-E-R-S dot O-R-G. Chalmers dot org. Very good, Brian. So appreciate your time with us today. We'll have to have you back real soon. Thanks so much, brothers. All right.

That's Brian Fickert, co-author of When Helping Hurts, How Do You Alleviate Poverty Without Hurting the Poor and Yourself? A quick break and then back with your questions. 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. And if you prefer not to call, keep in mind, you can always send us an email at askrob at faithfi.com. I'm Rob West and this is Faith and Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial decisions.

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Soundmindinvesting.org. Great to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. We're taking your calls and questions today on anything financial, helping you see God as your ultimate treasure, answering the practical financial questions and decisions you have right now in light of biblical wisdom, a biblical worldview. Hey, before we head to the phones, let me just mention, if you're looking for an advisor who shares your values, we call that a certified kingdom advisor.

This is a financial professional who's met extensive training and experience requirements. They've had a regulatory review. They've signed a statement of faith and a code of ethics. They have achieved successfully mastering the course, a university-based curriculum that goes along with a biblical worldview of financial decision-making. And they've agreed to listen to this show every day. No, no, they don't do that.

But everything else they do. And they earn the only designation in financial services around delivering biblically-wise financial advice. You can find a CKI on our website. Just go to faithfi.com. That's faithfi.com. Right there at the top of the page, it'll say find a professional and you can find one of more than 1,500, perhaps one right in your area. I would interview two or three and there's a helpful list of questions there that you can use during that interview process.

So check it out today at faithfi.com. All right, let's head to the phones. We've got two lines open, 800-525-7000. Let's go all the way out to California. Hi, Richie, go ahead.

Hey, how are you there? Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir.

I'll be quick. So my question is, I own real estate. Should I pay my tithes out of the gross that I get? Or should I pay my tithes after all the bills have been paid? I've been just kind of wrestling back and forth with that a little bit.

I feel as though I have some answers, but I just wanted to touch bases and get some assistance in getting an answer. Well, I'm so glad you did, Richie. Absolutely.

I'd be happy to weigh in on this. And let me just say, first of all, I love the fact that you're asking this question because it means you want to give as unto the Lord. You want to be faithful in your giving. And wow, what a privilege it is to be able to give and be a part of God's activity through our generosity. You know, it all belongs to Him. Money is one of God's good creations and we're to provide for our families.

And yeah, we're to enjoy it. It says that in Scripture. It also says that we're to give. You know, we were created in the image of the ultimate giver, God himself. And I love that giving kind of frees us from our own little mini kingdoms and reorients our perspective and our thinking toward the eternal, toward God's kingdom when it's given as unto the Lord. And I think that's really the big idea of New Testament giving.

You know, Jesus raises the bar in every case. And that certainly, I think, includes our giving. You remember He said, to whom much is given, much is required. And you remember He commended the poor widow who was giving out of her sacrifice, out of her poverty. You know, we see in Scripture that we're to give cheerfully, not under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

And so we don't want to be legalistic about it or, you know, try to check a box. We don't, certainly don't want to give to get, even though we know that there's incredible blessing that follows. It may not be financial, but we know that, you know, it calibrates our hearts to the fathers. Now, I think we are to give proportionately, and I think that does start with the local church. I think that's clear in Scripture. That's God's plan A. So if we want to use the tithe, not because we feel like we're bound by the law, because we're no longer under the law of Moses, but we use it as a guideline, maybe a starting place, what Randy Alcorn, the author, calls the training wheels of giving.

I think that's great. As long as we don't kind of camp out there, and as long as we're doing it for the right heart posture, and as long as we're looking to increase our giving over time, even getting into sacrificial giving, I think that's the right approach. Now, if we're going to use that guideline of the tithe, then we have to define what the tithe is. So the tithe was, even though there was three tithes for the Israelites that came out to 23 and a third percent, because one of them was every three years, it was based on the increase. And so what is our increase today?

Well, an increase is very easy when it comes to our income, when it comes to a gift we might receive, an inheritance, that's clearly an increase. When we have a business, and that's what I would put your real estate in, it's not an increase until the expenses are paid. You know, if you ran a grocery store and you own that grocery store, and you paid, you know, you gave a tithe off of the gross receipts of that grocery store, you wouldn't be in business very long, because the margins are very slim after you pay for the product that sits on the shelf. You know, you keep a very small percentage of what, you know, is actually sold after you pay all the expenses for the staff and the inventory and all of that. And the same is true here, is you've got expenses for your business, you got to service the debt, and you got to market it, and you got to keep the property taxes paid, and you got to do some repairs when somebody moves out and doesn't take care of your property.

So at the end of the day, you have profit. Whether or not you pay that to yourself as income or not, I think on some periodic basis, you could determine what your increase is for your real estate business. You could look at that quarterly, you could look at that annually, and that's the number that truly represents your increase. And so if you want to apply the guideline of the tithe to that, then that's the number you would give on. Now, if the Lord decide, you know, impressed upon you to reverse tithe, give on the 90% and not the 10%, or, you know, to give on the whole thing, you can't outgive God.

So I would never say that's a bad decision. I would just say the principle of the tithe is on the increase. And when it comes to a business, the increase is after expenses. So that was a long answer to a short question. But Richie, does that all make sense?

It does. It makes a lot of sense. And, you know, and just to share, we tithe at the church like we're supposed to. This is just one of those areas where, you know, I'm like, Lord, I just want to be obedient. And I love what the way you started, which is, it is a pleasure to give. And so my challenge for me is that, unfortunately, I've been a little lax on keeping up with, you know, okay, everything's been paid.

What is the increase or, you know, the surplus, so to speak? So now I pay my tithe. So secretly, I was like, Lord, since I'm having a little bit of challenge of keeping up with doing all my books properly, maybe it's best for me if I just pay you from the gross. And please pardon me, I know I'm using the word paying for the gross, but Lord, honor you from the gross because at the end of the day, that's the only thing I want to do. Yes. Just honor him. I love that.

Well, I think that's exactly right. And, you know, I love the way R.G. Letourneau puts it. If you have not looked at the life of R.G. Letourneau, the Christian industrialist, he lived in, it was born in the late 1800s and passed away in 1969. But he dedicated his life to what he called being a businessman for God.

He was incredibly successful designing and developing his own line of earth-moving equipment. And he was well known for the reverse tithe, giving away 90 percent of his income, living on 10 percent. But here's what he said. I love this quote. This is where we'll finish. He says, I shovel out the money and God shovels it back, but God has a bigger shovel.

And, you know, I think that's so true. And again, we don't give to get. This is not the prosperity gospel.

It's a hard posture. Hey, let me invite you to be a monthly partner of ours here at Faith Buy as a listener supported ministry. We can't do this without you. You can learn more at faithfi.com. Thanks to my team today, Robert Youngblood, Jim Henry, Devin Patrick, and the entire team here at Faith Buy. Can't do it without them. We'll see you next time. In the meantime, may the Lord bless you. Bye-bye. Announcer Faith and Finance is provided by Faith Buy and listeners like you.