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If so, please consider becoming a monthly FaithPhi partner by visiting FaithPhi.com and clicking Give. That's faithfi.com and click Give. Minimalism isn't about removing things you love, it's about removing the things that distract you from the things you love. Hi, I'm Rob West. Those words from Joshua Becker remind us that clutter competes for more than our space.
It competes for our attention, affection, and generosity. Today, Joshua joins us to talk about possession, simplicity, and how owning less can help us love more and live with greater purpose. And then it's on to your calls at 800-525-7000. That's 800-525-7000. This is Faith in Finance, biblical wisdom for your financial journey.
Well, it's a pleasure to welcome Joshua Becker to the program. He's a New York Times and Wall Street Journal best-selling author, a leading voice on minimalism and intentional living, and the founder of Becoming Minimalist. His latest book is Uncluttered Faith: Own Less, Love More, and Make an Impact in Your World. Joshua, great to have you here. Oh, Rob, thank you for having me on.
It's good to be here. This is such an important conversation. Thank you for having it. I couldn't agree more. You know, Joshua, when many people hear the word minimalism, they picture stark white walls or maybe the idea of getting rid of nearly everything they own.
But in uncluttered faith, I appreciate that you approach it from a much deeper spiritual perspective. I want you to back up and maybe share with us what led you to connect our possessions with our spiritual lives. Yeah, I appreciate that. Maybe I'll just start out by saying that minimalism is going to look different from one person to another. And some people might like stark white walls, and other people might not.
Some people might want to live in a tiny home, some people might not.
So we can get that right out of the way. I discovered minimalism 18 years ago, was living a pretty typical middle-class American lifestyle before then. Um, actually, it was a Saturday morning. I went to clean out my garage. My five-year-old son wanted me to play with him, and I spent hours on the garage neglecting spending time with my son Salem.
And at the end of the day, I'm like, what am I doing with my life? Like, why am I spending so much time and energy maintaining possessions when I could be spending my life on something bigger and better?
So that was my introduction into minimalism. My wife and I got rid of about 60-70% of our possessions over the course of a year. Each time we did, I discovered my life. Getting better in very practical ways. Like we owned less stuff, which meant our lifestyles cost less.
It meant our home was easier to maintain. We were living a better example for our kids and opportunity for generosity. I connected the journey to my faith. I was a pastor at the time. We're decluttering one of our bathrooms and I turned to Kim and I said, where's minimalism been my entire life?
Like all these benefits of owning less. How come no one told me about it before? And of course, it occurred to me that Jesus was saying the same thing thousands of years ago. He was inviting us to own less for the sake of devoting our lives to something bigger and better and more important than material possessions. Wow.
Who knew that Saturday garage cleaning could lead down a life-altering path? But I love it. You know, we've got about a minute before our first break here. How do you define minimalism? Because as you explain in the book, it isn't just about getting rid of clutter, it's really about reordering our lives around what matters most, right?
Yeah, that's a great question. I define minimalism as Minimalism is the intentional promotion of the things we most value. By removing anything that distracts us from it. Like, very simply put, we spend a lot of our time and a lot of our money accumulating physical possessions, maintaining physical possessions, desiring more physical possessions. But God has called us to something better.
And there are things in our hearts that we value more. Than physical items. No one says my greatest dream in life is to just own a house full of clutter. And so Minimalism is owning just what I need to accomplish the things in life that I value most by removing anything that distracts me from it. Yeah, well, that's really helpful.
Well, after this break, we're going to continue to unpack that. We'll talk about this idea of margin and how that can come into our lives, not only around possessions, but our time and so many other areas as well. We'll talk about how our culture defines success and much more. Delighted today to be joined by Joshua Becker. He's the New York Times and Wall Street Journal best-selling author.
And his new book, which we're discussing today, is Uncluttered Faith. Loan less, love more, and make an impact in your world. Much more with Joshua just after this break, and then onto your phone calls as well at 800-525-7000. Stick around. We're grateful for support from Guidestone, whose diversified suite of investment solutions align with Christian values to create positive change in the world.
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A less cluttered life can help us become more attentive to God, others, and the work He's given us to do. I am Rob West. This is Faith and Finance. Joining me today is Joshua Becker. He's the author of the new book, Uncluttered Faith: Own Less, Love More, and Make an Impact in Your World.
Joshua, you write in the book that we're swimming in a culture of consumerism, often without realizing how deeply it shapes our desires and even our decisions.
So, what are some of the ways our culture pulls us away from the things that matter most? Yeah, so true. I mean, you don't have to get very far in this world to see that we live in a culture of consumerism and marketing. We see 5,000 advertisements every single day. When you think about it, every single advertisement.
Its core message is that your life will be better if you buy whatever we're selling. And I think we hear this message so many times from so many places that we very subtly begin to believe it and we begin to believe the lie that more is better, that success looks like having a lot of stuff and owning a lot of the world. And social media plays into this and algorithms play into it and marketers and Corporations. And so, anyway, it's really made an impact on the way we live. The average American home is three times bigger than it was 50 years ago.
And yet, excess has become so normalized in our world, it feels normal. But in reality, we're living pretty unique lifestyles. Yeah, and we're spending billions every year as a nation on storage units to go along with those bigger houses. But you don't present this as simplicity requiring deprivation. You really describe it as a path toward abundance.
I'd love for you to explain the difference. Yeah, that's wonderful and so true. I hope joy is in my voice here. To me, I discovered that minimalism, and even if you don't want to call it minimalism, just intentionally owning less stuff or just intentionally owning what I need to own. The way to think about it isn't about what I'm giving up.
Minimalism is really about what I add into my life, that I get to add opportunity for impact and generosity, focus on other people, get to add time and money and focus and attention into my life. This is the brilliance of minimalism. This is when minimalism makes sense. I don't intentionally own less just for the sake of owning less. I own less because I realize there's something bigger and better out there available to me, which is, of course, the kingdom of God.
Yeah, that's right. And, you know, I think it's also important to acknowledge that enjoyment can still be a part of this. You know, I mean, we serve a good God who created money and gives us all things, it says in 1 Timothy, for our enjoyment. And so, you know, using money for a celebration with family and friends is a good use of a good tool so long as it doesn't become an idol, right? Absolutely.
I think that's the. The goal, right, that we would Live our lives pursuing those things that bring us lasting joy, that we would spend our lives pursuing those things that result in treasures in heaven, that we want to. Use our resources to pursue a counterfeit worldly offer of joy, but we would use it for the real joy and the real abundant life that Jesus offers us. Yeah. Let's talk about the idea of margin, Joshua.
So many people today, I'm sure many of our listeners feel exhausted right now. Maybe they're stretched too thin. How does clutter contribute to anxiety and even overload?
Well, the studies in this area are abundant and are unanimous in their decision-making that clutter adds to stress and anxiety and worry. The way Jesus tells it in Luke chapter 8, when he talks about the thorns that choke out the fruitfulness of the word of God in our lives, he calls it worries, riches, and pleasures chokes out our fruitfulness. A number of years ago, the New York Times ran a story and called the modern American generation the most tired, stressed, hurried, rushed generation of all time. And as I have pursued minimalism, as I have pursued intentionally owning less, I can see full well that there's a correlation between the fact that we own more stuff. Than at any point in human history, and we are more stressed and rushed than at any point in human history.
Our lives and minds weren't designed to own as much stuff and care for as much stuff as we do today. And there's a better way, and Jesus was inviting us to it all along. Yeah, I think that's well said. You know, I think sometimes we can get a better idea of something through stories. And you share this story in the book about Trish and her grandmother, this beautiful picture of a simple, faithful life that left a lasting spiritual legacy.
Would you share that with our listeners? Yeah, Tris told me her story a number of years ago, and it fits so perfectly into the book, Uncluttered Faith. Trish tells the story of growing up next to her grandmother. And her grandmother, I don't think because she had read about minimalism online or any other reason, but she just lived a very simple life. She loved gathering eggs, taking care of her garden.
She would sit out on her front porch a lot of the time. And Trish had these wonderful memories of just spending time at her grandmother's house and seeing the life that she lived compared to what she was seeing at home and just the hustle and bustle all the time. And so as Trish was telling me the story, she said, that model that my grandmother set for me always became the life that I wanted to live, the family culture that I want to have for my family. Not one where we're ambivalent to what's going on in the world, but just one where we've created enough space and enough margin in our lives that we can enjoy peace. People enjoy alone time, enjoy solitude, enjoy faith, and not be quite so rushed as the rest of the world could be.
Yeah. And the fruit of all of that often results in generosity. And we know that so much of what we pass on to our children is caught more than taught. And you devote a whole chapter to that connection. How does owning less then free us to give more?
Well, the connection is there. You know, pretty obviously, if I am going to own less stuff, then that's going to impact my financial life in positive ways. And I always mention that this looks different for different people. You know, intentionally owning less stuff if I live a life in debt. Intentionally owning less means I can get out of debt.
If I'm living paycheck to paycheck, as so many Americans do, intentionally owning less means I can finally get ahead financially. If I'm already ahead financially, minimalism means I can give more and I can be more generous and I can donate to causes that I believe in. I can become more involved in the kingdom of God. I can become more involved in charity. And the part that I love so much about this, which is so important, is You know, Jesus says, where our treasure is, our heart will be also.
And I think a lot of us think to ourselves: if I loved God more, I could be more generous. I could give more at church or give more to the kingdom of God. But actually, Jesus' invitation is the other direction. It's if I give more. My heart will follow my treasure.
And so, if you want to love God more. Give more at church to the kingdom of God, to missionaries, to the work that God is doing, and our hearts will fall more in love with God, which is a helpful principle for people to think about because I think we all want to love God more and follow him better. And we can do it by supporting his causes financially. This has been so encouraging. Joshua, thanks for stopping by today.
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you. Folks, the book's called Uncluttered Faith. Own less, love more, and make an impact in your world. Buy it wherever you buy books.
We'll be right back. What we do is very special and it's very unique. This is Bethany. She is a Certified Kingdom Advisor. I became a CKA because we're not building bigger barns and we're not trying to figure out how can we just amass more and more and more.
We're figuring out how much do you really need? What are your priorities? What has God called you to? And then how can we give it away? How can we be more generous?
You can find an advisor like Bethany at findaceka.com. Faith in Finance is grateful for support from Soundmind Investing. If you have money in an investment account, you know sometimes the stock market can seem like a roller coaster. But it's possible to enjoy both profit and peace of mind as a do-it-yourself investor, no matter what's happening in the market. A short video webinar about that is available at soundmindinvesting.org.
Financial Wisdom for Living Well, SoundMindInvesting.org. Delighted to have you with us today on Faith and Finance. All right, we're going to head to the phones here. We've got a few lines open, although the calls are coming in quick. The number to call is 800-525-7000.
You can call right now. Let's begin just north of where I am in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Hi, Pearl, go ahead. Yes. Hi, Rob.
Thank you for taking my call. I like to listen to Faith and Fly on a regular basis. I'm wondering about can I borrow from my four hundred one K to instead of going to the bank and getting a loan, Because my house is paid for, but I'm thinking of moving. And I just want you know, you have to have um money ready for a bridge loan. Yeah, you know, I'm not a big fan of that.
I mean, can you do it? Yes. You'll actually be paying interest to yourself.
So, what's the downside?
Well, the downside is if you were to separate from that company, it all becomes a taxable distribution. And if you're not yet 59 and a half, you'd have a penalty on top of that of 10%. Secondly, while it's out of there, even though you're paying yourself some interest, you're not having the opportunity for it to grow and compound, which was its original purpose.
So, I guess the question would be: is there another way around this? Could you do an offer contingent on the sale? Could you sell your place and then rent for a short period of time while you look for something? Could you look for a bridge loan because it would be very temporary that would allow you to kind of bridge between the two? I'd love for you to explore a few other options before you look at pulling out of that 401k.
What is the home that you're selling worth, and how much are you looking to spend going into? to the next place. I'm looking to probably buy a house that's about the same, probably. Between two two hundred and eighty thousand to three hundred.
Okay.
So it'd be about the same amount.
Now, you know, if your employer's plan allows it, and that'd be the place to start, you can typically borrow up to $50,000 for the down payment on a house. You'd have five years to pay it back, or it would be considered a distribution. But again, I would advise against it.
So I would love for you to find another way to do it. Are you moving out of the area, Pearl, or are you staying in the same general part of town? No, probably move into another state. And also wondering where is the best place to look for a bridge loan? Yeah.
Well, you know, I would probably start online. You know, with there's a number of online resources that you can search for loans, lending tree, and a few others. I would also check with our friends at Movement Mortgage. They're partners of ours, a faith-based mortgage company in all 50 states. And you could find them at movement.com/slash faith.
But I think comparing that to some other options online would be good. There are many online search tools that you could use. And I think typically you want to get at least three offers before you land on the one that you're going to go with. Uh-huh. All right, thank you so much.
All right, you're very welcome. Thanks for your call, Pearl. Let's go to Arkansas. Cindy, how can I help? Thank you for taking my call.
Sure. My question is. My husband passed away, and I still need to move his IRA into my name as I'm his first benefactor. But I was wondering if I have to move it into my name? Or can I move it Part of it?
into my children's name, who are his next benefactors. Got it. Yeah, it's a good question.
So, you know, as you evaluate this, as a spouse beneficiary, you do have a lot more flexibility than a non-spouse.
So you can roll it into your own IRA. You could keep it as an inherited IRA. And you have a lot more flexibility over how you take the money out. You can't simply skip yourself on all or part of it and give it directly to the kids if you're the primary beneficiary and they're the secondary beneficiary. See, secondary beneficiaries inherit only if the primary beneficiary has already passed away.
Or disclaims the inheritance properly, which that can get a little bit more tricky. You'd certainly want to get some counsel on what that might look like if you wanted to consider that option where you legally refuse part of the inheritance, allowing that to go to the contingent beneficiaries like the children. It has to be done very carefully. There's strict limits, and it's got to be before you take control of the assets. But I think usually what would happen here is you would go ahead and take the IRA, and it's going to now give you more flexibility on when you take withdrawals because one of the major advantages as a surviving spouse is.
Future required minimums are based on your age, not your husband's. And so that provides a lot more flexibility. Were you younger than he was, Cindy? Just one year. Just one year.
Okay.
Yeah. So it's your RMDs would be delayed for a year, which is helpful. And you know, you gain then the normal options any IRA owner would have, where you could choose the investments, you could name the new beneficiaries. You could do Roth conversions if you want, and you'd have that extra year before the RMDs kick in. And of course, you can take as little as you want up to the required minimums.
And that way, you're preserving as much as you'd like beyond the required minimums for the kids, and the kids could then be put on the account as the primary beneficiaries moving forward. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um Can I do rough conversions if I'm not working? Yeah, it you do not have to be working.
So they what normally a new contribution to a Roth requires income, earned income from wages or self-employment income. Roth conversions do not. And so you could do a Roth conversion at any time. You'd have to pay the taxes on it. You know, out of current dollars.
And I wouldn't do that Roth unless you have other funds without pulling anything out of the IRA in order to pay the tax. But if you had the funds to do it, yeah, you could go ahead and pay the tax now. And one of the benefits to that is not only does that lower your required minimums when that time comes, but it also means that once the kids inherit it, they don't have to pay taxes on it at their income, which could be a lot higher if they're in the prime of their working years because the tax has already been paid.
Okay, that's very helpful.
Well, good.
Well, I'm sorry to hear about your husband's passing, and I'm glad you're thinking about this the way that you are. I think connecting with your CPA and advisor would be a good idea just to kind of work through these scenarios. Make sure you update the beneficiaries once you move the account over and then work on the optimal strategy both for management of the assets in terms of the investments in light of your goals and income needs and risk tolerance. And then also from a tax standpoint, making sure that you're considering what is the optimal strategy moving forward, both for you and if you have an eye toward the kids as inheritors, what is the optimal strategy for them as well?
So if you need an advisor, Cindy, you could connect with a certified kingdom advisor there in Arkansas. Just go to findacka.com. We appreciate your call today. Call anytime. Lord bless you.
Big thanks to my team today. Devin, Sandy, Taylor, couldn't do it without them. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Faith in Finance is provided by Faith By and listeners like you.
