You know, I feel really bad for those who say, well, we don't experience the presence of God. That's just emotions.
So sad. It's time for the line of fire with your host biblical scholar and cultural commentator Dr. Michael Brown, your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the line of fire. And now here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Thank you so much for joining us on the line of fire. This is Michael Brown, my great and profound privilege and honor to spend this time together with you. I'm like a kid in a candy shop getting ready to start the week on Monday to get back on live radio.
So thrilled to be with you. We're going to be talking about a real serious important spiritual subject today, but I pray you'll listen with open heart, open mind, and I believe you'll be blessed and helped as you do. If you'd like to join in the conversation, if you'd like to ask me a question about today's subject matter, if you'd like to differ with me or challenge me, by all means give me a call. 866-348-7884.
866-348-7884. Will I get to some random Bible and theology questions? Maybe. Maybe. Or general questions on culture things you want to talk to me about?
Maybe. But for sure, I'll take calls on today's subject matter, which is the real deep and serious problems with hardline cessationism. I'll explain exactly what I mean by hardline cessationism in a moment. But first, if you are not getting our monthly frontline newsletter, literally right before the show started, I got the sample layout so I could review it, look at the content before it goes out to everyone. We are focusing a lot on the celebration later this month of 10 years of healthy eating. Yes, what a transformation has come in my life and Nancy's life.
Mind boggling. As I approach 70, 69, almost 69 and a half now, it seems amazing. I feel like I've got to get in better shape than I've ever been in because I'm getting close to the starting line. I'm ready to go do something for God.
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Free, waiting for you. Because again, we want to see you healthy. We want to see you thriving. Spirit, soul and body. All right. I have explained that the reason, the primary reason, the greatest reason that I believe that the gifts of the Spirit that were normative in New Testament times, be gifts of healing, be gifts of prophecy, tongues, miracles, that I believe those same gifts are normative today. The primary reason I believe that is the Bible. The primary reason I believe it is what is written.
Secondarily is my own experience. But primary is scripture. If scripture didn't teach it, then the experiences are subject and questionable. And in fact, in fact, if the scriptures taught against it, then the experiences are wrong and counterfeit. If the scriptures say we should cultivate these things, we should earnestly seek these things, we should welcome these things, and then we experience them, then our experience is confirmation of the truth of scripture. But I hold to what I hold to because I believe the final and absolute authority of all truth is what is written in scripture.
And if God says something, I'm going to believe it. Even if I don't experience it, I'm going to hold on to what He says until I do experience it because He is faithful and He is true. What is hardline cessationism? Some would call it hard cessationism or strict cessationism. Others, it's just what they know as cessationism.
In its strictest form, in a form in many ways that is very extreme, even for cessationism historically, in its most extreme form, it teaches this. Not only does it say there are no supernatural tongues today, there are no miracles of healing on a normative basis, you can't expect that or anything. Not only does it say there can never be prophecy, it also says that the Holy Spirit will never speak to you outside of the Bible, period. Even though Jesus explicitly says in John 10, my sheep hear my voice, rather, rather, with this theology, the Holy Spirit will never speak to you outside of explicit scripture or an insight from scripture. Now, it doesn't mean you can't learn from experience, that the Holy Spirit will not help you to learn from experience, but hardline cessationists would say this, let's say you're seeking God earnestly.
You have to make a job decision and one job is an amazing opportunity in the north and another job is an amazing opportunity in the south and it's going to be a big decision for you and your family. You say, Lord, I could go either way, but I need your wisdom, I've laid both things out, it's like strengths and weaknesses to each one, I don't know which way to go. And you just hear in your spirit, go south. No, no, no, they can't, according to a hardline cessationist, they cannot be God because that would be adding to the Bible. That would be revelation outside of scripture, it cannot be God if you are just distressed and fearful and your loved ones on the surgery table right then being operated on and they may not make it.
Your life, you're connected with them, it's your spouse, your child, they may not make it and you just hear this whisper in your spirit, they're going to be fine. No, no, that cannot be God, according to a hardline cessationist, that cannot be God because the Holy Spirit only speaks through the Bible. Not only do I find that utterly unscriptural and utterly contrary to what the Bible says, I don't just find it unscriptural, I find it contrary to what the Bible explicitly says about God communicating to his people on an ongoing basis and it is not adding to the Bible. The Bible stands alone, it's not adding to the Bible. But it's not only unbiblical, even anti-biblical, it's so non-relational.
I mean, imagine being married to your spouse and you can only communicate to each other by reading out of a book to one another and that's it. And all the responses are what's written in the book. You say, well, this is God's word. I understand it's God's word and God's word tells us that he has a relationship with us, that we have fellowship with him in the spirit. 2 Corinthians 13, 14, that throughout the New Testament, throughout the Bible, speaking and acting and moving and it's not adding to the Bible, all the prophecies in the New Testament that were not recorded, all the prophetic activity is not recorded in the New Testament, it wasn't adding to the Bible. All the prophecies in the Old Testament that were not included in the canon of scripture, it was not adding to the Bible. The dreams, the visions, God says explicitly through Peter in Acts the second chapter that the last days would be characterized.
They would be characterized by outpouring of the Holy Spirit with sons and daughters prophesying, with old men dreaming dreams and young men having visions that these would be characteristics of the last days. But according to our hardline sensations, no, it cannot be. That to me is so sad on a relational basis. I'm just thinking of thousands of times over the years and almost 53 years in the Lord when a comforting word or encouragement or directive came or something that was just needed or a sense from the Lord that understood, just part of our relationship. But it goes even further than that.
It goes even further. And the cessationism movie and conference would espouse these types of ideas. So, I'll articulate it the way a colleague did. Just came from a reunion, first reunion we ever had, well had decades from students in the ministry school in Long Island in the 80s, we gathered together again. Some of the leaders, students were there, it was this beautiful time, maybe about 50 people, about an hour and 10 minutes from our house, just a very special two and a half days Nancy and I spent with these old friends, colleagues. And I was talking to one of them, a pastor, he and I actually debated, once saved always saved, but he is a pastor, he's been a school teacher, he's been involved politically, and he's Calvinist, Calvinist, Charismatic. And he was talking to some Calvinist pastors, so he himself is Reformed in his theology, in terms of soteriology and things like that. So, he was talking to him about experiencing the presence of God or feeling the presence of God and the fellow said, what do you mean? And he said, well, you know, when God's really there, he experiences presence, and I said, no, no, he's everywhere, he's on the present, that's just your emotions. And he said, no, no, I'm talking about like in 2 Chronicles 5 where the presence of God fills the temple and they can't even minister, they can't even stand. That presence of God, they said, no, no, he's everywhere now, he's on the present, that's just your emotions. And he said, Jim, you've never experienced the presence of God?
No, no, that's not for today. That's what some hardline successions teach and I think, okay, I'm not denying they're saved, God knows their salvation, but what is your experience in God? I don't go on experience.
I ask if you go by experience, I ask what your experience is. In other words, have you experienced the new birth? What's the evidence of it in your life? Have you experienced the indwelling Holy Spirit?
What's the evidence in your life? Does the Holy Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you're a child of God? Romans 8, 16. Has he put the spirit of his son within your heart? Romans 8, Galatians 4, by which we cry, Abba, Father, that intimacy. Do you know the voice of the shepherd, not just in salvation, but in ongoing relationship, because it's present tense of the Greek, my sheep hear my voice and follow me, Jesus says in John 10.
Do you know his voice? Tell me about the peace that passes on this day. Tell me about the love beyond all this. Tell me about the inexpressible and glorious joy that you experience in the Lord.
Tell me about when the Holy Spirit's come down in power and visited you and touched you and worked through you. If these things are foreign to you, I genuinely feel bad for you because you are missing wonderful, beautiful, vital, foundational parts of your relationship with God. Of things that are yours to have. Look, Ephesians 1 says the Spirit is given to us as an Arabon, coming from Greek and Hebrew.
It is deposited as a down payment in our lives. And it's something tangible. We experience the moving and working of the Spirit, not just in changed conduct.
That of course needs to be there as evidence. But we experience the Spirit. We walk in the Spirit. We live in the Spirit. We're led by the Spirit. We have fellowship with the Spirit. We have fellowship with the Spirit. Friends, that's relational. It's rich. It's beautiful. Not just theological knowledge that I affirm with the positive. No, it's a tangible down payment on our eternal salvation. Oh, there's so much more to be had in God and it's all based on Scripture.
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That's right. Okay, I'll get your phones shortly. 866-348-7884.
866-348-7884. As there's going to be more talk in the next couple of months about a cessationist conference coming in early October, remember my invitation remains. To any of the leaders who participated in the Strange Fire conference or to any of the leaders who will be speaking at the cessationism conference or who were featured in the cessationism movie, I propose an academic full orb debate, multi-hour debate.
I guarantee you there will be civility on my part, graciousness on my part, moderated neutral setting, live streamed as well, on according to the Bible are the sign gifts for today. According to the Bible. In other words, if I raise the dead, I've never raised the dead, but let's say I did. If I raised the dead in front of your eyes and delivered 20 accurate prophecies, that doesn't prove anything. If you show me all kinds of flakiness and nonsense in the charismatic movement and some of it's there, that doesn't prove anything.
The question is, what does the Bible say? Shall we have the debate? I've been trying for over 10 years.
No one from the Strange Fire conference was willing. I've had a few debates over the years, but no one who is involved, no one speaking at the cessationism conference to date has taken me up on the offer. So let's do it.
Let's do it. Andrew Rappaport, who hosted the cessationism conference or participated in it and a smaller one and contributed towards the movie, reached out. Jewish believe we've had some great talks on the phone. We prayed one for another. He even offered it to the church that's hosted the cessationism conference in Oklahoma in October. Offered that we would do our debate there on a Saturday night and they respectfully declined. They just said with their full conference and having to get the building ready for Sunday morning, it would seem too much.
So I understand that he couldn't find another host church in the area because that was the goal. Let's time it for that weekend. So hopefully Andrew and I will still have ours, but Andrew's not featured in the movie.
Andrew's not featured at that conference. So my door is open. Let me say this. I have absolutely no question about what the word says on this. None. Now I was telling my Calvinist friend, my colleague, former student, now colleague, when we were talking at the reunion a few days ago, I said we could have a good debate about Calvinism.
Yeah? We got our verses. We've got our verses to go back and forth. We could have a good debate about that. Or we could have debate about end times and this verse seems to go this way, this verse seems to go this way.
We could have a good debate about that. I said there's no debate about Cessationism in terms of what the Bible says. You might debate church history, you might debate present day experience, but to me you can't debate. There is not a verse in the New Testament that explicitly teaches Cessationism. Not a verse. There are many that explicitly teach the continuation of the gifts.
So that's why I'm very happy to have debate. What does the Bible say for Silver Scriptura? Let us debate what the Bible actually says. I do want to remind you though of Paul's words. And this is, he repeats this several times in 1 Corinthians. But I just want to remind you, after he teaches about the way of love, 1 Corinthians 14 one, follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy.
Eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. So this is a calling to us, a command. When we get later in the chapter, he reiterates this. He reiterates, this is a command. This is a New Testament command, friends. So when we go down towards the end of the chapter, he says these words. Again, we're in 1 Corinthians chapter 14. He lays out what our gathering should look like with tongues, interpretation, revelation.
This one is a hymn, this one is a word. And then the proper order and how these things are conducted. And then he gets further teaching and says this. So, this summary as we come to an end. Therefore, my brothers and sisters, 1 Corinthians 14, 39, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues, but everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
Here's where I find cessationism to be so sad, especially hardline cessationism. So I was in Mexico City a couple of weeks ago, about an hour and a half outside of Mexico City, speaking to 1800 young people, maybe 100 pastors and leaders, their spouses. And the brother that was driving with me, a Mexican-born American citizen pastoring in California, he was telling me his father's story. His father was in gangs and became a very heavy drug addict and got deathly ill.
He was living in a graveyard, sleeping in a graveyard. Somebody new came by one day, well-dressed, carrying a Bible, and said, Jesus changed my life. He can change your life.
I want to help you. Let's say his name was Angelo. Angelo comes and tells him this. So the man says, no, no, no, no. I'm the one that gave you the first drugs. I'm the one that put the needle in your arm the first time. You are not like me. I am hardcore. I could never change. You could change because you were never into it the way I was.
I could never change. And that was the end of the conversation. Well, this man living in the graveyard, dying, sick, he ends up arrested. And he now finds out he's going to the federal penitentiary.
And he knows there are gangs waiting there who have guaranteed to kill him if he gets there. So he cries out to God, God of Angelo, Angelo's God, if you're really there, get me out of this. And to his shock, someone comes, pays bail, gets him out, and God says to him, what are you going to do with the opportunity I've given you? And he gets radically saved. Now he raises his godly family. His son goes into ministry. And then grandson, you know, little boy walks through the house preaching and stuff. And he's saying, isn't that amazing what happened to my dad? And I thought, you know, for the hard cessationist, that never happened because God spoke to him and God doesn't speak today.
Oh, that's so sad. Think of my friend Yesupatam, one of my dearest friends in the world, the truest Christian I know on the planet. And here he is, an axolite, so a violent communist, terrorist, raised and untouchable, atheist, alcoholic, engaging in terrorist activities against the rich, married to a Christian woman that was just arranged marriage and a lost soul. And as he's home, early afternoon, one day, early 20s, he looks up and he faintly sees Jesus hanging on the cross and now suddenly he can zoom in on it and sees the blood dripping from his hands and the wounds in his hands and feet. And Jesus says to him, my son, I did all this for you.
What are you going to do for me? Yesupatam was radically, dramatically born again and has done more good on this planet than just about anybody I know. Helping the poor, planting churches, extraordinary. Pure heartland sensations. No, no.
Didn't happen like that. Jesus doesn't appear and he doesn't speak. That is so very, very sad to me. He is speaking. He is acting. He is living. He is alive. He is real. And he is to be experienced as a father, as a friend, as a lord, as a teacher, as a guide, as a comforter, as a counselor. That's who he is.
There's so much more. Let's end the debate, tolerance, prophecy. Are you experiencing God? Are you walking in fellowship?
We'll be right back. If you simply seek to live by biblical values or just conservative moral values, you could be canceled. You could be cast out. You could be put down. You could be silenced. I'm here to say, friends, that I am not about to be silenced and I don't believe you are either. It is time for us to stand up. It is time for us to say enough is enough. It is time for us to push back in Jesus name, not fighting the way the world fights.
No. Overcoming evil with good. Overcoming hatred with love. Overcoming the flesh with the power of the Spirit. Overcoming lies with truth. And that's what we're here to do on the Line of Fire broadcast.
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Donate monthly. This is how we rise up. It's The Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on The Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH. Here again, it's Dr. Michael Brown.
Welcome, welcome to The Line of Fire. You know, I mentioned Skillet's song, Unpopular, that it was releasing. I think I said it was Wednesday, actually released on Friday. It's got, of course, hundreds of thousands of views on the video. And John Cooper, my boy, called him KB, Kid Brother, and I'm BB, Big Brother.
KB shot me a note. It was the number one download on certain charts, and so may God bless and get out. And he just gets these amazing interviews, gets to share his faith and speak plainly. It's an open door. He decided some years ago he's going to speak up. He's going to tell it like it is, regardless of what happens. And instead, God's opened more doors. Yeah, remarkable.
So if you haven't watched it or listened to it, you can download it wherever you listen to audio or just type in Skillet, Unpopular on YouTube, and you'll see it on the Skillet channel. All right, we're going to take some calls, 866-348-7884. We start in Oklahoma with Melanie. Welcome to The Line of Fire. Hello, how are you?
I'm very well, thank you. Okay, well I have a question. So in Exodus 32, 5, this was when they built the calf in sacrifice when Moses was up on the mountaintop. So my question is, do you think that maybe we don't see God working as much because we've put so many pagan things into Christianity? Like, you know, he always told them when they were going into other nations, you know, don't follow the way the nations do. You know, worship me the way that, you know, you're supposed to, not like the other people do.
Don't follow traditions of men. And so God kind of put on my heart, I guess a few years back, that, you know, he gave us the feast days. And I know that the shadow, you know, crossed to come and he fulfilled those in the first spring ones and he'll do them again, right?
So my question is, do you think that we should go back to doing those things? You know, we have Christmas and that's pagan. And then we have Easter, which a lot of the roots of that are pagan.
Yeah, so let me weigh in. Honestly, certainly worldliness, carnality, compromise, division, doctrinal deviance. The more that these things are in our midst, the less we'll see the power of God, the manifestation of his hand because of the junk in our lives.
Or just the outpouring of his spirit if there's no place to receive God, if we're not ready to meet with him and be with him, he's not going to pour his spirit out where there's not welcoming in his heart. But I don't believe God commanded the entire church to follow the biblical holy days. They are prophetic.
They were given to Israel as signs and symbols and part of Israel's education process, you know, from generation to generation. But they were never mandated for everyone and all the nations because the gospel is going to go to countless different cultures and backgrounds, etc. And honestly, I know people who celebrate Christmas and Easter in a very Christ-centered way and celebrate the birth of Jesus and celebrate his death and resurrection.
And it's not about Easter egg hunts and it's not about flooding each other with gifts you can't afford, you know, physical gifts. And they're Christ-centered and God moves powerfully through them. I've been to other parts of the world and they celebrate Christmas and Easter and Jesus is being exalted and God moves powerfully. And I've been in settings of Messianic congregations that celebrate the feast days and the holy days and they don't see much of God's power. So I think there are larger principles, Melody. In other words, to the extent there is paganism, we do our best to remove it. To the extent there are carnal fleshly things, we do our best to remove that. Repentance prepares the way of the Lord. So when God's coming to visit, he'll often bring us to points of repentance and cleansing because he wants to dwell in the midst of holiness and purity.
So the larger theory I agree with, I just wouldn't say that the key to seeing greater manifestation of God's power is to give up Christmas, Easter and to substitute it with the biblical feast days. That's a separate subject for discussion. I don't think it's the major that remains in here, but I appreciate the call and the question. Thanks so much. Thank you.
All right. 866-34-TRUTH. Let us go to David in California. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. Nice to speak with you again. Hey, are you talking directly into your phone?
Because it sounds like we're in kind of, you're almost in a plane or something. Actually, let me put these. Okay. Can you hear me now? A little bit better.
We got rid of the background noise. Yes, sir. Go ahead. I want to add, I saw your roundtable with Doug and Holly, and it seems like that they are completely closed to hearing the charismatic side. And I was wondering, instead of talking with them and other cessationists, maybe it would be better if you got a group together and discuss what the charismatics really teach and talk about some of the abuses and excesses and stuff like that.
For example, Holly brought up Chris Valentine's book, The Supernatural Ways of Royalty, and she didn't give you a page number, but I have the book and I found the page number. And on 205, it talks about coverings and talking about apostles and prophets and how you need to be under covering, you know, that David was under covering, Joseph was under covering in order for God to work in your life. And that can be kind of scary when people like myself or around your age remember the shepherding movement and stuff like that. Sure.
And so I'm just, you know, like I said, it just seems like, you know, there's going to be a big cessationist conference coming up. Just hang on one second. Are you saying that that quote was taken out of context or was quoted in a misleading way? That she took out, I didn't know if it was because what she said, I would have to go back and look, but it didn't sound like she had the context. I said, why didn't she give the page number, you know? Got it. Yeah. So let me just let me jump in here, David, and say this.
I absolutely appreciate the call and the sentiments behind it. So number one, in when Holly and Doug cite things in their books, they will have page numbers. Everything is documented in that regard. So just in the middle of of quoting, there was no purpose in a page number when we're just having a dialogue.
Otherwise, in the books, they'll give page numbers. I do not plan to have further dialogue, and I don't know that it would be fruitful to have further dialogue. Doug and Holly are not rejecting the charismatic movement as a whole. They're not even rejecting conceptually that there could be apostles and prophets today. But they're rejecting the idea of governing apostles and prophets or that this is now a foundational structure for the entire church, which must come under this, etc.
Whatever the specifics would be. That where we had our differences. I was terribly disappointed by their responses after the dialogue, as was my friend Dr. Joe material. We were both actually shocked by the way they responded when we posted Something on NAR and Christian nationalism just to lay out our views because we knew there's going to be a lot of political confusion and accusations and things like that.
So we said, let's get ahead of it. It wasn't responding to their work. And they published this lengthy thing as if we responded to their work and even attacked our motivation. We were shocked.
We were utterly shocked. We just had all this dialogue and I wrote an article afterwards expressing Here's how to have constructive differences. Here's where I differ with them. Here's where they differ with me.
Here's where we agree. And so we were shocked. And and I've been subsequently shocked by some of the stuff that was published, but I don't respond to it.
I don't fight over it. The end of the video. There was this kind of gotcha. Gotcha.
Gotcha. And I thought people watching that really gonna think she got us like actually know So I put out a video responding say, hey, here's a friendly appeal. Come on, let's step higher. Let's do better.
And you can watch it go to the line of fire on YouTube and just search for Doug and Holly or friendly appeal. So I just go through it factually say no, no, no, no, just fact just truth. But the you are right, sir. The bigger issues are there are abuses that we agree on and there are plenty of things that you can read a quote in a book. And then actually when you see how it's lived out and practices thing.
Oh, okay. So it's more much more nuanced. We can sound a certain way. But in a larger context of someone's life in ministry, we have to understand it. So I might read some quote from a pastor. This is how he leads his church like yikes.
But then when I actually know him and I'm just all okay. Got it. Now I understand better. And that's what I was trying to bring to say, hey, there are abuses.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I've written about them. I speak out against them.
Let's work together to expose these abuses, but you need to nuance things and you need not to group all these different disparate people together and then create this boogeyman nor which, by the way, by the way, one of the most insidious, I laugh just because it's so utterly ridiculous. The reason I don't call out the nor false prophets is I'm on the nor payroll. First thing, I don't do anything for money. In other words, I obey the Lord.
If that costs me everything, so be it. If it brings in finances to our ministry, so be it. I'm going to obey the Lord. There's not a single thing in my life or ministry that I do in order to get more money. God forbid I compromise a conviction or an ethic.
God forbid it is so mind boggling to me that anyone could even think like that. Plus, I'm not on any nor payroll. I'm supported by this one's ministry. They're all the principal nor people. I am not.
And then, of course, you group in all these others like Kenneth Copeland is going to do with nor, prosperity teacher, et cetera. Well, you won't call out. You won't say Copeland's going to hell because you're on his payroll. What payroll? Never even talked to the man. Shook his hand once at a meeting.
What payroll? But this is what I found interesting. I'll make this last comment, David, and then we'll get to some of the calls.
Thank you, everyone, for your patience. I'll say this. When I decided to look at some of the comments on the American Gospel channel where the video was published because I knew that channel would be a very, very strong cessationist and many of the people don't even believe I'm a believer. I'm going to feel bad for them because I'm enjoying the riches in favor of the Lord for 53 years. They think I'm not a believer. I feel bad for them.
So, generally, I was reading it to see, okay, how can I reach these people better? They think I'm this. They think I'm in the dark. I'm lying. I'm deceiving when I smile. They think it's a trick.
When I genuinely speak with humility, I'm feigning it. It's like, okay, how can I reach them? I was praying over that.
How can I reach them? But what I noticed was that the vast majority of the comments were not substantive but judgmental. Brown is this. Brown that. He's not really. He's duplicit. He's obfuscating. It's like, wow. So the moment I said, yeah, I understand this, but there's another side to it.
Obfuscation is this and that. So that's what struck me. The vast majority of the critical comments were based on a judgmental attitude, not on substance.
Any substantive comments I made were either not heard or misunderstood. So that's my challenge. I want to reach these people.
I want to see them walk in the fullness of the Spirit. I'm not personally offended. I'm not upset. I want to reach these critics. And for Doug and Holly, we can work together with a good grade. Otherwise, if you write a thousand articles against me a day, I'm going to bless you and say, let's go on and work like you.
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866-348-7884 is the number to call. Let's go over to Rick in Franklin Square. Welcome to the Line of Fire. Rick, are you there? Can you hear me? I can hear you. Yeah, sorry I didn't make the reunion for CFNI there in North Carolina. That Rick, yeah, it was very, very special. I'm sorry I couldn't get there.
Yeah, of course, it's out of state and not everyone can do it. I'll just say this quick. When I was teaching at the school, I wanted everyone to go into vocational ministry. I wanted everyone to be a missionary or a pastor or an evangelist or something.
Everyone would go into vocational ministry. Of course, most did not or certainly did not immediately. But as we gathered, Nancy and I were seeing people for the first time in 35, 40 years and seeing how solid they were and walking with the Lord and serious about God. You thought, that's a win.
That's a big win. Because ultimately, they're just great foundations laid in that time together at our Bible school. That being said, what's on your mind, Rick? Isaiah 49, 23. I consider this a very relevant scripture for Christians because half of the verse is repeated in Romans 10, 11. But I have a question about the Hebrew.
This is the verse that says, Thou shall know that I am the Lord, and they shall not be put to shame that wait for me. Now, this word, ashamed, in some translations and disappointed in other translations. Now, this word disappointed, I looked at the original Hebrew. And disappointed is, it would be nice if that was a word, but the Hebrew, it's quite a stretch to get the word disappointed. Can you tell me what's going on with the Hebrew here? Why would some of the translations say disappointed and others say put to shame? Right.
Are you saying, here's what I'm just going to do. I'm just going to pull it up on Bible gateway. The Hebrew is shevoshu, which is ashamed. So that's certainly what it means. So the New American Standard and the NIV both put the word disappointed. I thought that would have been interesting because I've had some disappointing moments in my journey and I thought that would have resonated, but it just didn't happen in the Hebrew format.
Here's the semantic development. When it says that those who wait on Him will not be ashamed, what does it mean? It means won't be ashamed because He doesn't come through. They won't be ashamed because He failed.
So that's why some understand the nuance to be disappointed. It's shame due to disappointment. It's shame due to apparent divine failure to come through and keep His promises. So the word in Hebrew actually is ashamed, but in context it could have that nuance, which is why some translate it in that way. In other words, why would you be ashamed? For what reason would you be ashamed? Why would you be ashamed of your spouse? Why would you be ashamed of your kid?
Why would you be ashamed of your God? Well, in the context, and again, kings will be your foster fathers, their queens, your nursing mothers. They'll bow down before you with their faces to the ground. They'll lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord. Those who hope in me will not be disappointed. Meaning they won't be put to shame because God fails to come through and keep His word and His promises. And ultimately they'll see His faithfulness. So that's the logic behind the translation. I think this Isaiah 49, 23 is a very relevant verse for Christians here at the end of the age. Simply because it was repeated in Romans 10, 11. I think the Lord, the Holy Spirit highlighted this verse from Isaiah here. But I do appreciate your insight on that.
There's a reason. In other words, translators or scholars, they're not just trying to read. There's no reason to read something in or some theological bent or trying to support a movement. They're just understanding contextually what it is. Put to shame because of disappointment.
The relevance is that we're always tempted with that. That God's not going to come through. That in the end things will fail and He's saying no, no. No one that puts their trust in me will be put to shame, will be disappointed. Hey bless you Rick. Maybe next time around we'll see you face to face.
I hope so. Alright, God bless. Bye bye.
866-344-TRUTH. Let's go over to Jeff in Maryland. Welcome to the line of fire. Good afternoon, Dr. Mike. How are you doing?
Alright, just like I knew who Rick was in Franklin Square, I know who Jeff is in Maryland. Bless you, buddy. What's on your mind? Hey man, the main subject that you brought up today, I wanted to dig into that.
I know this is very limited time, so let's just go right to the bottom line. The reason that we have cessationists, I think they coined that term, well we've coined that term, because of what it says in the 8th verse of the 13th chapter of 1st Corinthians, where it talks about charity never faileth. Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail. Whether there be tongues, they shall cease. Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. So, we've heard for a very long time from different people that hold to that hard line issue of cessationism that these things, for a number of different reasons that they might have, they've just stopped. They've ceased. They left with the last apostle or whatever.
But here's what I'm looking at. I believe that the key to help them to understand it is, first of all, the love of God being so vastly different from the love of a human being that when Paul is telling them at the end of this chapter, the greatest of these things that we can have of faith, hope, and charity is charity or is love. And I'm saying this because I think what people have done is when they come into this 13th chapter and they look at this verse, they completely become oblivious to these first 12 chapters that Paul is saying to this church in so many different ways, in so many different levels. You guys are carnal and you think you're going to advance in the Lord because of what you can do, because of your gifting, because of this and that, and I need you all to understand that that is not the way you mature.
The way you mature is through the love of God because everything that you think is going to make you mature, whether it's the gifts or whether it's the way you can give your body to be burned or whatever, it's the love of God that when it is completely yielded to, it will change you. And that love is so powerful, it is the key to release the gifts of the Spirit, the power of God and all these different things. But if we shut it down like we have a tendency to do and we just put controls on the love and we think we're just going to get to maturity our way, it will all fail.
It will all fail. So I'm just... Yeah, I love, I mean when Paul puts it all together, why does he have the love chapter right in the middle of this between 12 and 14 as it's divided? And then what 14.1 says, I read it earlier, follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts. It's not like he just said, oh, by the way, I'm just going to bring on the subject of love and then I'll bounce back to gifts. Right, so true love for God and others around us is the key because the gifts are for others.
Yes, tongues edifies ourselves as we pray, etc. But the gifts are to serve others and bless others and touch the world and help the body and glorify Jesus. And what motivates all of it is love. Look, a lot of the people I know that are used in healing, they're used because they cried out to God. They were so burdened seeing sickness, disease, that they lost a loved one. They saw the agony that it brought on families. They said, God, there's got to be more.
You're good. Demonstrate your compassion in living form. And they've been used in those ways. You know, as to the idea of the 1 Corinthians 13, 8 through 10 tells us that the gifts will cease with the completion of the canon. That is a bizarre reading of scripture.
Almost unknown in church history until like a century ago and rapidly fading again. I'm going to tell you, I believe that the key for people that are hardline cessationists is to come back to the understanding that we're talking about a love that is not human love. It's a supernatural love. If they can understand that this is a supernatural love that has many different applications in us, with just a lot of love of God, to do what it can do, we open the door to the supernatural, to the miracles, to the gifts. Because it was never supposed to stop. It was always to be an expression of how much God loves us.
He loves us so much that His love will flow through us and touch people, heal them, raise them from the dead, get devils out of them, whatever. So that love is the key to everything. Yes, sir. Absolutely well said, Jeff. Allow amen to that, my brother. It's not to say that cessationists don't have love. That's not the point.
It's to say that the gifts are an extension, an expression, a tangible demonstration of the love of God in action. Yes. God willing, I'll be writing a book. It won't be coming out until 2026, but God willing, I'll be writing a book on the end of cessationism, or the cessation of cessationism, why it cannot be supported biblically, why it can no longer be supported historically, and why it cannot be supported experientially. Yeah, so I'm looking forward to writing that and getting that book out early 2026. Let the Word of God speak plainly.
He is a God who is alive, who is acting and moving in many supernatural and glorious ways, from salvation to deliverance to healing to prophetic messages, because He is on the move today. One more reminder, if you're not getting my front line newsletter, this month we'll focus on reversing the aging process. Go to thelineoffire.org, thelineoffire.org, and click subscribe. .
