You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm John Galantis, and we are here again in the Clearview Today studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University author, full-time pastor, and the host. Yes, right, you guys can't give it up.
You guys can give it up. That's right, that's right. Polite golf claps. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio.
It's good to be here. It's good to see you. I gotta say, we're entering into our second or third week without Ryan. I miss him. I miss him too.
I miss him. He can really MC the show in a way that sounds easy. I'm not going to lie. What Ryan does sounds easy. You just say the same thing every week, and it's not easy.
It's not easy. It really is not. And he also brings his unique perspective on the subject that we're discussing. And what I mean by unique, it's not like he finds it very different, but he brings his perspective. That's right.
And that helps. That's right. So we're getting comments that say, How long is this mission trip? And what it is, is he actually, they took.
So the first week they took. the middle school students to Hendersonville. Fruitland Bible College. That's right. Came back Saturday.
Saturday at 5, they got back. We did service at 6. Sunday at 8, they shoved off. With the high school students. To the high school students.
To Boston. Boston, Massachusetts. That's right. That's right. Well, Ryan, we miss you.
We love you. But the show must go on. Dr. Shah, today's verse of the day is coming to us from the book of James, chapter 1 and verse 21. And I think this really goes perfectly with how you left off yesterday's show about staying in the word.
It says, Therefore, lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. Wow. Nothing more powerful than the word of God. Implanted word of God. Yeah, that's right.
And that really characterizes or characterized John MacArthur's ministry. Yes. That he preached expository messages at a time where people may have been tempted, you know, the big church era, the church growth era, where people were tempted to, or pastors were tempted to sort of. Become very topical. And there is a place for topical preaching, but it's a small place.
There are times that you say, okay, I'm going to do a topical message. On marriage, or I'm going to do a topical message on parenting. And we're still going to go to scripture, but then once that is done, we're going to go back to the book. Because you can go and get scriptures to support your marriage. You're right.
Message. Yeah, and that's like systematic theology, really. Right. But Sticking to expository preaching, in my opinion, is better, much better.
Well, I think you said on the show, you've said it several times, and I know you've said it to me several times, is the reason that you went into one of the reasons that you went into New Testament textual criticism is just because it forces you to look at the text. That's correct. And I remember just kind of digging even more into that, and I was like, well, you know, why is obviously that's important, but why is that important? And the ultimate reason is you just have to have a love for God's word. That's right.
You know, you have to love this book. I mean, that's how I grew up is studying the word of God and hearing my dad preach expository messages.
Now, I. I do want to clarify that sometimes if pastors are not careful, What you think sounds like John MacArthur may not be sounding like John MacArthur's exposure. Because John MacArthur can pull off Preaching a message that is simply a commentary. Sure. But he has a way of Delivering.
He didn't walk around. He's stuck behind that pulpit. If you ever watch his messages, he's stuck behind that wooden desk. But he had a way of speaking and had some power behind it. And he was funny when he wanted to be.
I mean, he's very funny when he wanted to be. He was also applying it here and there. But he didn't focus on application. He felt like the Holy Spirit should do that.
So Sometimes there are pastors who will try to, young guys, who will try to copy a John MacArthur. But in essence, they are really copying John MacArthur's Bad. Pretty cheap. You know, when you try to copying somebody, many times we end up copying their bad flaws. I don't know if this will this will really hit you, but if there's anyone in my age bracket, especially that's drawn towards music, I think I can I make them make an almost exact parallel.
So there's a there's a guy named Travis Barker. He's the drummer for Blink 182. He is known for his really chaotic style. If you hear like if you hear a song that he's drumming on, you'll know instantly that's him. People try to copy him.
But it only works when Travis Barker does it. If that makes sense, I don't know how to, like, I've heard even people on worship bands, they're trying to do his, he's really chaotic. Like, talk to him. And it's like going crazy. And if I heard any other human being on the planet playing that way, even if it's in a rock and roll stadium.
I'd be like, that does not sound good. You can't drum like that. It only works because he's the one doing it. That's right. And there's things that John MacArthur.
Did that kind of uh are contrary to uh homiletical principle. Or what are those one more time? Uh uh things like breaking down the sermon into uh Certain sections so that people can grasp it and go, Okay, I'm staying with you. I'm going from this to not this. It doesn't need to be.
I preach many messages that don't have that break, and that's fine. You don't need to have that one principle, and then here's a second principle, here's a third principle. You know, you don't necessarily need that, right?
Okay, as long as your message is true to scripture and you're doing application and people are staying with you and going, I hear the word of God, and I see what's happening here, and I see where it's applying into my life. John MacArthur could do that. A lot of people can't.
So it ends up being. Our preacher is boring. I mean, I love the Bible and all, but man, I mean, he just sits, stands there and just keeps talking about it. I just don't feel like I get anything out of it. Yeah.
But, but, kind of talking about some of the things that we talked about yesterday, especially in preaching, there are guides. And then I know for you, of course, there are rules. And one of your rules is every message has to. Include, but I mean, end with, but definitely include Christ and the cross. Right.
Did he? And that's like a hard and fast rule.
So. His messages definitely had Christ on the cross. No worries about that, okay? But his messages many times, I would say most of the time, did not have an invitation.
So, no call to response. No conclusion.
So the conclusion would be If you enjoyed this, come back next week and continue. Seriously? Yep. That's the end of the sermon. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I wouldn't. I spray. Huh.
So, there is nothing you're driving.
So, he is driving towards, don't misunderstand. He is driving towards salvation. He's driving towards discipleship. But, like, how we drive a message. You're supposed to And I'm not saying all homiletics, homileticians, do that.
A lot of professors of preaching are not good, I would say, because sometimes they themselves haven't done it.
So it's kind of a touchy subject here, really. I'm just saying that because there are some who are phenomenal. But then there are some you go, Oh my goodness, I hope I never preach the way you're teaching me. Have you been in classes like? Oh, yes.
Oh, yes. I've been, and I'm thinking. If I were preached like that, I know it's not going to work. It's not going to work. It's so dull.
It's so dry. Yeah. It is Christless. It's gospel-less. It is, I don't know what you're trying to do and convince us to do.
And I had one who was like that. And he thought I really liked him because I was always nice. I was always nice to him. And he was, and I think you know what? I know exactly.
You know what that means, right? That means he had a bunch of people who weren't nice to him. Like, if you think that someone's really into your preaching style because they're nice to you, that means some people have told you before, like, you probably are not that good. And I was like, oh, I have worked hard to get your system out of my system. I took that person's class, not for preaching.
I took him undergrad. I won't say what class, but I took him undergrad for a different class. And I remember telling you about it. And once you told me that, I definitely started saying, I was like, oh. Yeah, I would never speak like I'm not going into preaching.
I didn't take a preaching class, but I would not communicate with people that way. Right. Yeah. So it's, I would say. MacArthur, phenomenal gospel preacher, evangelistic, cross, very much important.
But You need to have a conclusion. You got to have a response. You need to have an invitation. You have a response.
Now, maybe in your setting, you may not bring people to tell people to come forward and give their life and come kneel and pray like we do in our church. That's fine. But at least bring it to a point of action. I would love to get people who are either watching this on YouTube or on Prey. I would love for you guys to sound off in the comments because this might be a provocative question.
But Dr. Shah, really, yours is the answer I want. Uh Is there any point to preaching a sermon that doesn't have a call to action at the end? I would say no. I think I agree with you.
I think I agree because it's like we could call it a Bible study. We could call it a teaching. I mean, there are a lot of Bible studies out there. Right. And that's fine.
You can end it. Because I do Wednesday night Bible studies. Sure. I'm doing one right now called Digging Deep Through Great Britain.
So we're looking at the history, the spiritual history of Great Britain and how the gospel came and how we. And then I ended with. Hope you have a great evening. Right. But that's a different setting.
People know what they're coming for. There's no, right. There's no call to action. There's no, like, hey, if you want to give your life to Christ tonight, come forward. Or like, there's no driving towards, let's get you saved by the end of this.
My message. Right. But a sermon. You have to. Yeah.
There should be some action. And definitely, every sermon should have the action: give your life to Christ. And if you've already done that, whatever that sin is in your life, or whatever that place is where he's calling you to obey, or trust him, because sometimes those messages are simply for you to trust him. I'm really eager to hear the comment because I'm sure there's people out there who are going to start writing in and saying, no, no, no, you can have sermons without invitations. But to me, I think I agree with you.
I don't see the point of doing it and calling it a sermon if there's no, if you're not asking, if you're not driving towards someone's salvation. I would say a lot of reform side of preaching. They don't do it. No. Really?
Yeah, yeah. A lot of reform side were like that. If Puritans would preach like that, Charles Spurgeon did not always give an invitation.
So they're not really after, they're hoping you get saved, but it's like you probably won't get saved right here. They look at the whole idea of invitation as something that was born out of the. Tent revival meetings of 19th century America. And I disagree. I disagree.
You think it was born earlier? I believe it was born in New Testament times. I mean, what did Peter do on the day of Pentecost? What must we do to be saved? Oh, true.
Yeah, he told him. Yeah, he told him that. And same thing, but if you're going to go further back. After John the Baptist is done, what can we do? And then he tells them, If you have two robes, give one to another, or if someone tells you to carry this, you know, go further, the Roman soldier tells you to carry their luggage, then go another mile.
So he's giving them invitation. Yeah. And so And then of course in Old Testament when they preached there was also invitation. After they read the word of God. The book of Ezra, when they read the word of God, the people wept.
And then people went around comforting them and guiding them and helping them. Come on, that's that's that looks more like our Church service at Clearview Sunday morning, where people are there to help you, pray with you, guide you. I'm there up front. That looks more like Ezra's time than Than anything else. I agree completely.
And, you know, it's funny how we have all these different avenues of distributing the message and distributing the gospel. And I think there's certainly styles of preaching and there's certainly styles of worship. But at the end of the day, there's one gospel, and the gospel demands a response. And I mean, I believe that John MacArthur would say that. But I guess it's funny.
Like, I just always imagine the response being facilitated here in the moment. I can't imagine just being like preaching a message and saying, okay, I hope you get saved. I'm not. It's not going to be here now. His crowd, his 3,500-seat sanctuary, which was.
Several services, you can say 7,000, some people, or maybe 6,000. I don't know. I've never been to Grace Community. Um Many of those people would come with iPads and back in the day with a yellow notepad. and a Bible and a pen and a marker, they're sitting there taking notes.
So they're already believers. They want to grow in their faith. They're hungry to grow. Or it's not like they're hungry, but they want to. Grow in their Christian life.
And they loved his preaching. And those, um, Thousands and thousands of uh tapes that went out or the Broadcast on thousand radio stations across America, or Master Seminary, which he founded back in the mid-80s. Uh these People were already convinced. Right. They're saved.
So he felt like, who am I saving here? Right. He knows he's preaching, not preaching to the choir, but in a sense. In a sense, he is preaching to the choir. Yeah.
Yeah. So. What worked in his context, don't replicate it in yours. Hey, that's good advice. That's good ministry advice, though.
And we sort of said that at the top of the show. Show, do you want to touch on some of the books that you have? Yeah, I have many of his books in my office, but I brought a few of them. Here's one on expository preaching. This book was put together by the Master Seminary faculty.
It came out in 1992. This was also in my father-in-law's library, if I'm not wrong. And I read this book. Good stuff in it. Good stuff.
And let me see if he had anything on invitation. Let's see. Nope, there's nothing on invitation. Moving from exegesis to exposition. And that's where it ends.
But again, I would say a good book to read. It's not a very technical book. But It still does the job.
So, do you, um, do you, do you feel like that's a beginner's like first expository preaching, or is that more intermediate? Like, hey, you're really getting into it now? I think I wouldn't call that a beginner's book. I don't agree with all the principles in it.
Okay. I don't. But I think it's a good one to have. There's more to hermeneutics than just his book on expository preaching.
So I won't call it advanced at all. Gotcha. But again, in advance, some of those principles you may not agree with. I don't agree with them either. Here's another one called Rediscovering Pastoral Ministry.
Again, this is done by him and the master's seminary faculty. This came out in 1995. And again, a good book on what it means to be a pastor, the pastor's prayer life, preaching life, worshiping, leading, outreaching, discipleship. I mean, this is a good book to have. Like a pastor's instruction manual, sort of?
It is. And I have read many of such books. that's have been done by different Preachers over the years, and so I have read both of them. There was also one called Shepherdology that he did, and I think that was a good one as well. Do you already take some of those so the table doesn't flip over?
Well, we'll see what happens. Oh, no, you're good. You're good. I think it's staying now. There we go.
I may slide it into the middle. There you go. And there you go. It looks good. It looks good for the camera shot.
That's why we wanted to. And then there are a couple of books that maybe we can talk about in the little time we have left where I would say I disagree with John MacArthur.
Okay. And not just me, but there are many who also disagree with him.
Okay. One book that came out in the late 80s, I want to say maybe 1988, it was called The Gospel According to Jesus. And it's subtitled, What Does Jesus Mean When He Says, Follow Me? That's a good title, by the way, Gospel According to Jesus. Yeah, that's as and again, this was Nicole's dad's book.
You can see his sign in it. What I disagree in what uh A scholar by the name of Charles Ryri from Dallas Theological Seminary took issue with was. What became known as the Lordship Salvation controversy. And in simple terms, it meant Do you need to receive Jesus as Saviour and Lord? In order to be saved.
Okay. Because John MacArthur said that it's not enough just to receive him as your Savior, you also need to receive him as your Lord.
Now, if someone's listening and they say on the surface, That sounds fine. What would you Yeah, in a sense it's fine. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you should. But does that mean that You will Um Surrender every area of your life on day one?
Oh, they're saying you're not saved until you completely surrender every single sin. That's what ended up being.
So I want to look at this statement that was quoted in The Christianity Today. It's by Daryl Bach, who's a New Testament scholar from Dallas Theological. He said: Certain ambiguities in MacArthur's style make it difficult to determine what his real position is. Hmm. Earlier, he said, and this is Daryl Bach talking about John MacArthur.
He said, there is often a difference in what MacArthur says. And what he apparently means.
So, do you think Daryl Bach is talking specifically about this lordship salvation issue? Could be. Could be. So. I would say yes.
You should. But does not do does that mean that if I have not surrendered everything that I am not saved? No. Yeah, because at the same time, it's like there are some people who are like, Jesus, I need you to be my Savior, I need you to save me. And then there are areas in your life that the Holy Spirit will help.
You deal with and you grow in grace and grow in faith and grow in obedience and grow in repentance. Yeah, because we have the same, we have sort of the same, and maybe this is not a good analogy, but we have sort of the same outlook on baptism, which is like people will say, I want to keep my kids from getting baptized until they understand every single thing.
Well, then they go get baptized. My question to them is: Do you understand everything? Right, right. You know, when I explain to people about what does baptism It represents my death, my burial, and my resurrection with Christ, Romans chapter 6. Many times those same people who are there for the ki kids' baptisms are like looking at me like Yeah.
I didn't know that. Or, or they'll be like, you'll have grown adults who are like, you know, remember, this is to wash your sins away. That's what the water is. It's like, no, no, don't say that. But, like, I see what you're saying.
You can respond without being all in, like, okay, I'm all, I have every single thing in my life lined up.
Now I'm ready to follow Jesus. Yeah. And that is a lifelong growth process.
So, John MacArthur believed. Uh apparently One way or the other. John MacArthur believed you have to surrender everything to Jesus. And if you don't, then you're not safe. You're right.
And of course, if you pushed him on that, he may say yes. I mean, it became a big controversy, not just Charles Ryrie, but Zane Hodges, who was also a professor at Dallas, who also got into that.
So that was a big controversy that stayed up there for a long time. And this is the book that really catapulted John MacArthur on the big scene. I don't want to sound pedantic, but it's like I have to go through every single sin that I could possibly have ever committed or will ever commit. Name it. and then say, Lord, I surrender it.
In a sense, yes. What he's saying is like every area of your life completely surrendered. If not, then you have this uh very weak m Discipleship, and it's not really Christianity. But then, once I'm saved, there's no area for sanctification, right? Right.
So, what we believe is sanctification, positionally, you are declared sanctified, right? But then experientially, you grow in your grace, in God's grace, in faith. And that's where God begins to deal with some things in your life. And guess what?
Sometimes it's down the road that you realize: man, that area of my life. Jesus is not Lord. Wait, I'm not saved. Yeah, true. I remember one of the, one of the, I didn't, you know, do drugs or anything like that, but one of the things that was really difficult for me to give up was cussing.
I was, I was saved at 15. I genuinely, I don't think I stopped cussing until I was like 19, 20 years old. I think once I started going to college, I stopped. That was years. But I would still say that I was saved before that.
Right. And so those are some of the places where you have to go. I don't think I agree with what he is saying. And I think there is a problem there. And so.
Um I I would say read Charles Ryrie's So Great a Salvation book.
Okay. That was a response to this. That's a response to the gospel according to Jesus.
Okay. Okay. And it helps you understand. Again, I don't hate John MacArthur. I think he's a great contribution.
But then there are areas you go. I know what you're saying. But also don't forget When you're accepting Jesus as Lord, Lord was more than just Boss, L Lord also meant God. To accept Jesus as my Saviour and Lord, that word Lord. It represented God.
That's a good point. Yeah. Good point. I prefer to say. Give your life to Jesus and receive him as your Saviour and King.
True. I mean, how many lords and ladies do you know? Yeah, I don't. How many lords are in America? Yeah.
I mean, we don't have 'em. We're not living and if I was living in England, it would make sense to me. Right. Lord okay, Lord so-and-so or or Lord Baden Powell, you know, the scout guy. I mean I mean, so but How many lords do we know here?
I don't know any. Yeah. And I know sometimes, like, the Rick Warren way of saying is: make him the boss of your life, the boss. Yeah, but I don't love. I mean, I love my boss, but on a mafia boss sitting there, kiss my ring.
Yeah, like I. I'm talking about now not me, John, but like the general person. They don't love their boss. I don't do what I don't obey them but I only obey them transactionally. Yeah, it doesn't it it really doesn't work.
Yeah. Even king is is okay. I think it's more scriptural. Because Messiah is really God's anointed king. Right.
So. Maybe that works. Yeah. But ultimately, what it really means is you are submitting to his authority in your life. Yeah.
And that you're saying, God, whatever you need to do in my life, I pray that you will do it. Yeah, I agree. That's what it means. It's not like I am now I am. cognizant of every area that you're going to wrest things out of my hands, you know, wrestle things out of my hands.
I don't know, but I am submitted to him. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
So I would say that's where I think he wrote another follow-up: Faith Works. This is the gospel according to the apostles. And I believe this came out in 1993, but it wasn't quite as popular as the sequel to the gospel. But it did not. Let me also say this: John MacArthur, as godly a man as he was, he also knew how to build a brand.
Oh, I'm sure. He also knew how to thrive on controversy. Really? He had some controversies? I mean, Nothing not like scandals, no scandals.
That's one thing I can say about him. In his marriage with his family, he was rock solid. Right. But then he like the charismatic chaos. He wrote a book called Charismatic Chaos.
On the Pentecostal. On the Pentecostal. I agree with him over some things. I would say tongues are known languages. Sure, sure.
So he believed in sort of a cessationist view, which I don't think is necessary. If they're known languages, then I would tell anybody who wants to speak in tongues, it's like. What language are we talking?
So, I won't agree with John MacArthur there. I would agree, but I would disagree. Then I agree with him on his role of women in pulpit. I think he was right on that. Which is under the.
Headship of a man. That's right. That senior pastor should be male. And I mean, that's a biblical thing. I mean, if you have a problem with that, take it up with.
The Word of God. That's right. So I think he did a good job there as well on family, on things like the inerrancy of Scripture. He was rock solid. And all the whole elder thing.
I don't quite agree with him on that. He was big on elders. He tried to be. Who is going to oppose John MacArthur at Grace Community Church? Can you imagine that?
The elders coming together and say, We are not going to follow you. Yeah, you probably just won't be an elder for very long. I'm sure they'll find a way to get you replaced.
So I would say, yeah, it works for John MacArthur, but it gets a lot of guys fired in their churches because the very people you elect to be on your elder, you know, the hedge of protection around you are the ones who lynch you.
So I would suggest be careful. How much authority do you give? And make people elderly.
Now you can have leaders like trustees and Finance committee directors or building committee members, you know, though that's fine. But elders mean you're spiritually overheading, and it gets weird. That's another, I bet you, I bet you that's another point that we'll get some comments on. But maybe we'll have a show on elders one day if people, because I'm sure there's people out there who are going to fire off about that. But, Dr.
Shaw, we're almost out of time. Anything that you want to say as we're wrapping up this conversation on John MacArthur's life? I would say. You know, there are people that you may not agree with 100%. Like John MacArthur didn't agree with.
R. C. Sproll, right? I mean, some people love R. C.
Sproll. John MacArthur took him to task on infant baptism because R. C. Sproll was defending infant baptism. Oh yeah.
Oh wow. R.C. Sprung died a few years ago, you know, supporting infant baptism, and John MacArthur would not let up on him.
So whoever you love, just know there will always be some weakness, some place. We just discussed John MacArthur's regarding lordship salvation. But does that mean for a moment that I'm saying he is not a good, great man of God? Not at all. No, not at all.
Amen. A lot of wonderful things, and I'm sure his faith has become sight. Amen. Dr. Shah, thank you so much for all your thoughts and your insight.
Thank you guys so much for listening to the show. And make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic right here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to all of our sponsors who are making today's episode possible. And don't forget, you guys can support the show by subscribing on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcast and content.
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