Myths and Facts About Grace; and Kingdom Perspectives on the News

Grace. What's true? What's false? What does the Bible really say? We'll separate fact from fiction right here.

It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, look at this timing. Just literally, right before getting on. On my computer and opening up my screen for all of your calls and getting ready for the show. Literally, a moment before that, I just looked in my. email in my junk folder and I've been offered if I can talk to Nicola, I can get my free love forecast.

I can request a free reading that will reveal my future. Yeah, this is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire. Maybe when I finish that, I can win the lottery from Woolworths. Anyway, to some of the junk mail here, delighted to be with you.

I know the world's going crazy around us. I know there's all types of superstition and nonsense, et cetera. But, but. The long and short of it is, our God is still God. Jesus is Lord and King.

And All is well. with the righteous. even when the world's swirling in madness around us. All is well with the righteous. Even when Things go bad.

Even when We read news reports like New Jersey School District to allow boys and girls locker rooms. and things like that. If we know the Lord. If we are his people, there's always a place of peace, there's always a place of refuge. And there's always an answer for our problems.

Now Let me be totally straight with you, friends. It's really, really easy. As a talk radio show host, it is really, really easy. For me to just talk about the latest news. Every day, all day.

It is really, really easy for me to just talk about politics every day. It's really easy for me to focus on one particular moral or social or cultural issue. and talk about it every single day. Easily. Easily.

But one of the purposes of this show is to be contemporary. to talk about what's happening in the world around us. To also answer your questions on different biblical subjects, to equip you, to strengthen you. And to dive deeper in the word together. To never forget about Israel, I mean these are things we cover every single week by design.

So, by design, today, we're stepping back. from the moral cultural issues for these next few minutes. We're stepping back from some of the social madness. around us And We're going to dive into the word together. Let me share something personal with you for a moment.

Saturday night. Just a number of things were burdening me. were grieving me about the state of the nation. and the state of so much of the church in the nation.

So What do you do? What do you do in a state like that?

Well, you pray. You get on your knees, you pray. You you cry out. You look to the Lord, you lean on the Lord, you share your heart with Him, and you And then What happened? Excuse me, with me, what often happens is As I start to seek the Lord and pray, the fire starts to burn in my heart.

And before I know it, I'm writing something, I'm working on something, I'm expressing something. The same thing with you're burdened, you're concerned, you break away from what you're doing. You get in the word. You get in the word. You immerse yourself in the word.

You renew your mind with the word. You renew your mind with scriptural truths. And then, even if nothing has changed around you on the outside, you have changed on the inside. and things are very, very different. This is Michael Brown.

You are listening to The Line of Fire, and we're going to talk about the grace of God. If you have any question of any kind that relates to this, phone lines are open at 866-2666. 342-866-348-7884. It's fire we want for fire we want. We please stand to the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

So, why, in the midst of all of the social madness chaos around us, Are we focusing on Um Why are we focusing on Grace.

Well, two reasons. One, we need to be grounded. We we need to be really Um we need to be established in our faith. We need to be grounded as believers that we're secure. that were solid.

that were in right relationship with God, Otherwise, we can't help anyone around us. If here, if there's a. a fire alarm that goes off in a school. And the teacher of the elementary school, she's got six-year-olds in in first grade. And the fire alarm goes off, and she starts shrieking and screaming, Oh, no, fire We're all gonna die These kids are gonna go crazy.

They'll be crying, they'll be terrified, they'll be jumping out the windows, they'll be piling onto each other. If she says, Okay kids, fire alarm just like we do in the drill, everybody follow me, line up, come on, let's be quick and smiling and laughing, the kids will just do it, they'll get out of the building, they're safe.

So, so If We are going to have an answer for the world, if we are going to be a blessing to those around us, if we're going to stand fast in the midst of confusion and opposition, we have to be grounded. You know, I didn't know that much about roots of trees. I still know very little. But when I see some massive tree that would withstand a storm, a hurricane or something like that, you know, you think, man, it's a big, strong tree and then you realize, well, yeah, it is a big, strong tree, but the reason it's withstanding the storm It's because of the root system. It's because the roots These massive roots that go down deep and spread so wide.

So how deep? are our roots. How deep are our spiritual roots? How grounded are we? How unshakable are we?

Are we? Doesn't the Bible tell us that the righteous will never be moved? The righteous will never be shaken. Everything can be shaken all around us. But the righteous will never be shaken.

Being grounded, being secure in the Lord is so, so important. Walking in a way where we are free from condemnation. where we are free from fear. where we are free from spiritual anxiety, Where we know that we are accepted in God, our sins are forgiven. That is so crucial.

At the same time, if we believe things wrongly about grace, we can become complacent. We can become lethargic. We can even become compromised and think we're fine.

So that's one major reason that we're talking about grace. And since my new book, The Grace Controversy, will be out in less than three weeks. Maybe one of the most practical books I've ever written. Certainly, I can't think of any other book that's any more practical than this one. And even trying to work through theological questions like what does it mean to be under grace but not under law?

What does that actually mean? Things like that. And does God see us as holy and righteous all the time? We unpack it in very, very simple terms, rich in scripture, always making sure that you're grounded in grace while we separate truth from error, in particular the contemporary error of what we call the hyper-grace message, a message that goes beyond scripture, a message that exaggerates what's written in the word. I'll get your questions shortly.

8665. three four eight seven eight eight four But let's let's sort out some myths. and some facts here. There are hypergrace teachers. And when you ask them a question, what is grace?

They respond with grace as a person. And his name is Jesus.

Now that this this sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Grace is a person, and his name is Jesus.

Well, it sounds wonderful, but it's not accurate, it's not true.

Now, if they said Grace is embodied in the person of Jesus. If if you want to understand grace, Look at Jesus. That would have been fine. Amen to that. But Grace is not a person.

Grace is a... Noun. Grace is a something that that was expressed through a someone. But grace is not that since someone Jesus was filled with grace and truth. He was the embodiment of God's grace.

He was grace in action. Dying to pay for our sins, rising from the dead to justify us, sending His Spirit to empower us. always interceding for us in heaven. But grace is not Jesus. Grace is a noun.

brought to us by a person Whose name is Jesus. Right, so Jesus brings grace to us. And demonstrates grace to us. But in the Bible, grace is not a person. Grace is A noun.

So, for example, John 1.14. And the word became flesh, dwelt among us, speaking of Jesus. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And we have seen his glory. Glory as the one and only Son of the Father.

Full Of grace, sir. And truth.

So Jesus is not grace, Jesus is full. of grace and truth. Acts 15:11, Peter, and by the way, these are the last words of Peter in the book of Acts. Wonderful words. But if we believe, Excuse me, but we believe that we, meaning the Jews, will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Just as they, the Gentiles, will.

So, when you speak of the grace of the Lord Jesus, that tells you that grace is not Jesus. Grace is something that comes through Jesus.

Now, why do I... Make a big deal of this. In fact, it's the first question I answer in my new book, The Grace Controversy. Is grace a person? I address it because many times when you're trying to really understand what someone teaches.

You're really trying to understand what they believe. You really want to to see if they're teaching truth. or error. That They give this answer that sounds wonderful but tells you nothing. Grace is a person and his name is Jesus.

Okay, you haven't told me anything. I believe in Jesus. I follow Jesus. I love Jesus. But you haven't told me anything about the meaning of grace.

Now if they would say grace is God's unmerited favour, and his empowerment to live a godly life. Yeah, I am in to that. The acronym GRACE, G-R-A-C-E, God's Riches at Christ's Expense. Yeah, Affirm that But when you give a nebulous answer, how can I really sort out what you believe? How can I really sort out what you are teaching?

That's why I address these issues in depth. Paul speaks about the gospel of the grace of God.

So God's grace is all about Jesus, but that's different than saying grace is. Jesus. When Paul writes about the free gift by the grace of that one man, Jesus the Messiah, when he speaks of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ five times in his letters. If Grace is a person and his name is Jesus, then what would these verses mean? Wa was Paul speaking about the Jesus of our Lord Jesus Christ?

If you talk about the grace of our Lord Jesus, if grace is Jesus, then you're talking about the Jesus of Jesus. It's silly. Yet some people some people throw these things out. And they sound great. They sound spiritual.

But they are not true. They're not true.

Now here's a bigger question, and I'll go to the phones shortly. 866-348-7884. Any grace-related question you have. By all means. We'll take your calls today.

Uh I get concerned when I see Grace as an excuse for Laziness. Grace as an excuse for inactivity. Grace as an excuse for spiritual complacency.

Now, I understand. That some people live their whole spiritual life trying harder, harder, harder to please God. One of my friends some years ago, after hearing me teach on hypergrace, said that that's been his whole spiritual life, that something was hanging over his head saying, not good enough. You didn't pray enough, you didn't read the word enough, you're not holy enough. You're not like this person or that person.

They're more spiritual. You're not as spiritual as you used to be. And there's this constant, this constant push. It's like a hamster and one of those wheels in his cage. And he's, he's going nowhere, but he's working hard.

He's going nowhere. but he's working hard. That's how some of us felt for years. And then we hear about God's grace and we realize we're accepted because of what Jesus did. But that does not mean that we're not called to action.

That does not mean that grace does not come with responsibility and accountability. It's a glorious, free, life-transforming gift. of which we're now called to walk worthy. The Grace Controversy. and set the record straight and help you be grounded in grace as the world is going crazy around us.

we can have deep spiritual roots down. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire, 866-348-7884. All right, I'm going to go to the phones momentarily, but. My book, new book, The Grace Controversy, comes out. Oh, less than three weeks from now.

So what we do, last few years we've done this with a brand new book that comes out, the first printing.

So the very first books that come in from the first printing, whether it's 50 or 100 or 200, we allow you to pre-order a numbered signed edition.

So it's kind of like a collector's edition, because we only do it once at the beginning. And sometimes it can be $30, $40, or $50 for those, depending on the cost of the book to us. But this time it's just $20. Postage page for my new book, The Grace Controversy, that answers the 12 most common questions about grace in a very practical way. If you have the Hyper Grace book, this is a great compliment to it.

If you don't have Hyper Grace, perfect. This will read its entirely its own book, and there's very, very little overlap. Maybe a couple pages borrowed between the books, and that's it.

So, to order So these will be numbered. You'll have number 38, or number 1, or number 114 numbered. Signed to you with a scripture reference. Give us a call now, 1-800-278-9978. Get as many copies as you want.

1-800. 278-9978 or online, ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. And thank you for your interest in the book. I'm really excited to get this into your hands.

We go to the phone starting in Brooklyn with Caesar. Welcome to the line of fire. Hey, Dr. Brown, God bless you, sir. Good to talk to you again, buddy.

Likewise, likewise, it always goes. Uh, you know, I listen to your show because I I um I greatly get blessed by it and I I thank you too for speaking the truth with boldness, yet love. And like Second Timothy four says, for the time will come when they will not endorse sound doctrine, but after their own lust they shall eat to themselves teachers having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from truth and shall be turned unto fables. And um, Doctor Brown, the the question um I I had was um Can salvation be lost?

Now, I I'm not too sure about that, but I know that people can be confused into thinking that they're saved perhaps because um Jesus said that many on that day they'll come to him and say, Lord, Lord, have I not prophesied in your name, cast out demons, in your name, and perform many miracles? And Jesus would tell them. He never knew them, but um, I was just interested in And hearing what you had to say about that. Yeah, it's actually question number 12 in the Grace Controversy. That's the last question that I answer in the book.

So I'll give you the short version here. Of course there's debate in the church over it, Caesar. We all recognize there can be false converts, right? That someone gives the appearance of being saved, but they're just going through the motions, or they were just doing things with wrong motivation and trying to use this religion thing for their own power or whatever. And then there are other people who can be raised in the church and they don't know.

What it means to be a Christian. For example, when Donald Trump says he's a Christian, he's a Presbyterian, I believe he means it. In other words, he genuinely thinks that's what a Christian is. You're born into it and you go to church. I don't think he has an understanding of what it means to be born again.

And so there are plenty of people like that. All right.

So we put those aside. We're talking about a genuine believer. And here's the way I like to phrase it, Caesar. To say, can you lose your salvation? which which of course is the way I I ask it in the book, because that's the way it's commonly asked.

I think that's a wrong way of looking at it because you can lose something accidentally. You can, you know, you ever lost your car keys, or for me, my glasses. And the problem is, of course. Um you know the the the problem is that um uh the the uh when you lose your glasses, you you can't find your glasses. When you lose your glasses, you need your glasses to see them, but it's accidental.

It fell under the bed here.

Okay, that's not the way it is with salvation. I would rather ask, can you choose to walk away from God? God on His end will never lose us. God on his end will never misplace us, right? God has given us promises to keep us to the end.

Therefore, there's no reason for fear. If you want to follow the Lord, you don't have to worry that sin is going to be too strong and it's going to get me. Because that's how you feel sometimes. Man, I blew it before. I'm afraid I'm going to fall back into sin again.

I mean, I messed up before. What's going to keep me this time? Your whole trust has to be in God. Not in yourself. Oh, yeah, you gotta use wisdom.

You know, you stay away from certain things, make certain lifestyle choices. But we can trust God, he who began the good work. Will bring it to completion. No one can pluck us out of his hand. Neither death nor life can separate us from the love of Christ.

That's clear. But on the flip side, it's also clear. that we can walk away. That we can choose to leave God.

Someone says, well, God doesn't make us sons and then unmake us sons. True, but He doesn't force us to stay in the house. And we can by choice walk away. I like that. I'm going to hit that.

And that's why there are warnings in the scripture. About those who play games. There are warnings in the scripture about those who turn. Aside.

So um That's what we have to do. We have to be sure that in our hearts we want to follow the Lord and we're not playing games with sin because, hey, I can never lose my salvation.

So it doesn't matter. The worst that happens is maybe my life will be cut short, but I'm still saved forever. Or the worst that will happen is I won't get as much heavenly reward, but hey, that's fine. I'll risk it. Heaven's still going to be great.

That's a dangerous attitude. That's an unscriptural attitude. That's a dangerous attitude. So I agree with that. I know the promises are 100% true.

And at the same time, I take the warnings seriously. That to me is the healthy way to live.

So I never, ever, ever worry about losing my salvation because I trust God, He saved me. And I want to be his. There's nothing to worry about. But if God forbid I started to entertain some ugly, sinful thing that was going to take me away from God. And I thought, well, I just want to do it.

I have to do it. I want to live this out. I'm going to try this new thing. Or I'm going to believe in this other religion. If I'm saved, I still get in.

That's real danger.

So we believe the promises. And we take the warning seriously. That's how I answer that question. Thank you, Dr. Brown.

Can I just add one thing that I I believe uh the Lord um Yeah. Was this? I told him, Lord, you know, I know that you're a merciful God, and I know you're good, but you're also a holy God, and you're consuming fire. And he told me this, Caesar. How do you see the President's children Um, how how do they carry themselves?

How do you see the Queen of England's children, perhaps, right, carrying themselves? Um With honor and respect, right? Because they're carrying that name and they're representing that name wherever they go.

Well, you as a child of God Should remember what name you're carrying. You're carrying the name above all names, and you're serving the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. You know, so as long as I believe, Dr. As long as we know. whose we are, then we really know who we are, and then we can live it out in in this in our daily life, you know?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And that's the truth of grace. It's grace with responsibility. Grace with accountability.

I appreciate that. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the line of fire. 86634Truth is the number two call. And uh we're talking about grace. We're talking about Controversies concerning grace. Friends If you are not secure in your faith, If you are not secure in the love of God, If you are not secure in God's promises to you, how are you going to help people around you?

Have you ever battled with fear, with anxiety on a serious level? Have you ever been hit with major questions about your faith or anything like that? Or um perhaps perhaps Uh maybe in a sport or you're you're performing musically or something else, you lose your self-confidence. And you perform very, very poorly because of the lack of self-confidence. What happens when it's affecting our own relationship with God?

What happens when it's affecting our walk with God? If you're not secure, If you're constantly feeling, man, God's unhappy with me. I'm not doing enough. Then what now crisis comes, God forbid, but a crisis comes, right? And crisis comes, and you are in a state of.

of uh of panic And you know, or you're upset spiritually to start, you're not sure about your own walk with God, you think He's angry with you. And now you get this call.

Someone very close to you has been in a car accident. Get to the hospital. You need to pray for a miracle. How can you pray? How can you ask God?

You're You you're you're unsure about your relationship with him. How can you be confident if you don't know the love of the Father? How can you go to the Father if you think the Father is upset with you? Here, let's take an earthly Father. All right.

Um Let's Let's take uh an earthly father. And you're estranged. You're the son. And you were estranged from the earthly Father. And the last you heard, He was very upset with you because you had wasted money He had given you.

Now you're in a crisis. You need to call your dad for a loan. Don't even bother to call because you know he's upset with you, or you think he's upset with you, and you squandered the money the last time.

So it's the same with our relationship with God. when we are in that frame of mind. of spiritual insecurity. Of, I don't know if God really loves me, or He may love me, but does He like me? Or He must look at me as a miserable, wretched sinner all the time.

It's no way to live spiritually.

Okay. No way to live spiritually, and on top of that. Uh On top of that, uh If if you are not ground it. It's very, very easy for you. to be pulled away by sin.

When you think God's not happy with you, it's like, what does the matter? Have you ever been through that cycle? Who cares? Have another drink. Who cares?

Get high. Who cares? I won't even go to work today.

So I emphasize the importance. of being in right relationship with God. I emphasize the importance of being secure in the Lord. I emphasize the importance of living with a clean Conscience. On the flip side, If it leads to complacency Everything's fine.

I just chill for the next 30 years. They went on understanding grace.

So I'm going to get into some scripture, go through some specifics with you. And we'll be talking about some things in my book, The Grace Controversy, 866-348-7884. If you have a Grace-related question. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, big question about grace. Big questions. Let's say You commit a sin. What do you think about this? You you commit a sin And you Die.

before you can repent of that sin.

So let's not say you, somebody, okay? I won't say me, I won't say you, somebody. Joe Christian. Mm-hmm. Joe Christian is driving.

In the car. Uh somebody Cuts them off. And he gets really mad. And he gets so mad 'cause he's got a road rage issue. He gets so mad.

that he starts tailgating this person. And then they come to a sudden screeching halt because they don't like him tailgating. And Joe Christian slams into that car, and because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt, he dies. He dies in the act of of road rage. He dies in the act of chasing down a a car that cut him off.

He dies sinning. with a sinful attitude. But he's been a genuine believer. He just had a weak moment. He's been a genuine believer.

He's been a follower of Jesus. He was saved at the age of eight, baptized at the age of ten and is a faithful church goer and just Is this an area that he's dealt with over the years, is this road rage thing? this time cost him his life. He dies in that state. Does he go to hell?

Because he died in sin. Was that proof that he was never a true Christian? because he died in sin. Or It doesn't matter. How you die.

Well, yeah, you want to enter into God's presence in a positive state, but in terms of your salvation, does it matter how you die? I mean, doesn't the Bible say if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness?

So maybe if we die without confessing our sins, Go to hell. There are Christians who think that if they do not confess every last sin, before they go to sleep at night. God, forgive me. I wasn't patient with the kids today. And Lord, yeah, at work.

Forgive me, Lord. I had a wrong attitude towards my boss. And that's right. I just remember now when I was going through my inbox and saw in junk mail, there was like this lustful picture, and I glanced at it and the junk, and Lord, I shouldn't have looked. And before I deleted it, Lord, forgive me for that.

And oh, yeah, I fell behind on my Bible reading today.

So, Lord, forgive me. I ask you to forgive me in Jesus' name. Did Jeff do that every day? What if you die? And you forgot to confess one of the sins.

What if you were angry with your spouse? You know, don't let the sun go down to your wrath. Ephesians 4. Or if you're angry with your spouse and you fell asleep angry. And died of a heart attack.

or a a plane crashed in your house that night and and you died angry. in a broken relationship with your spouse. Did you go to hell? based on that. The answer is no.

No? Yeah, th the answer is no. We are saved.

Now hear me carefully. You know I don't trivialize sin. And if you heard me in the last segment, I said that you can walk away from God, or the segment before, you can walk away from God if you choose to. The warnings about apostasy in the Bible are Real warnings. And this, I have a whole chapter in my new book, The Grace Controversy, that deals with this.

That that that If I don't confess a certain sin and die, can I go to hell based on that? Your salvation is based on what Jesus did. And in your trusting him for salvation. and receiving forgiveness from him. Not based on if you confessed every sin in your life every day thereafter.

You say, but why is it important to confess our sins? Oh, for many reasons. and relationally It's very important because you don't want any breach in your relationship between you and God. You don't want to need cleansing. You don't want to be in a state of alienation.

It's very, very important. We can break our fellowship with him. And that's grievous. And if we don't confess our sins and acknowledge them and recognize them and ask God to wash us and to cleanse us. then it's easy to harden our hearts.

You know what it's like? You're afraid to get on the scale 'cause you think you're gaining weight.

So you just avoid it.

Well, the more you avoid it, the heavier you can get, and then you keep finding another excuse to avoid it. Whereas, no, go back to that reality, weigh yourself. Go to that spiritual reality. Acknowledge that sin before God.

Now you have to deal with it, and now you're in the presence of God for Him to help you to deal with it. But as far as salvation is concerned, The moment we're saved, we're put in the Forgiven column. Come on, were you perfect from the day you got saved? Were there sins you were committing you didn't even know were sins? Were the things that you did, maybe the first week or month you were a believer?

And you didn't realize that they were they were wrong? That's like, oh, yikes. That's very wrong.

Okay, but you didn't realize it then.

Well, you were not in danger of going to hell because of that. You were a forgiven child of God. You say, but why don't I confess sin? Ah. There's the forgiveness of salvation.

And there's the forgiveness of relationship. You say, does the Bible make that distinction?

Well, yes, not by name, but yes. because it tells us that we have been forgiven. Once and for all, through what Jesus did. But then it tells us we need to be forgiven in an ongoing way as we walk with him. Just as Jesus taught the disciples in John 13.

Right? That the one who's had a bath doesn't need to go back to the bath house or to the river to get bathed again. He just needs his feet washed because on the way home walking through this wicked world we get defiled, our feet get dirty.

So there's an ongoing daily cleansing. And in my own life, Just the way I I have walked with the Lord these years. I don't. Once a day. tried to take inventory, and examine my life from morning to evening.

and think of everything I did wrong. or every place I fell short.

Now, there are believers who've done that and it's spiritually rich for them. If so, God bless them. That's between them and God. God bless them. But I I have not done that.

I've not made that a practice. I haven't found it helpful.

However, What I have done. What I have done is this. I have Gone to the Lord when I'm aware of something wrong, when I'm conscious. The moment I'm conscious of it, God forgive me. God forgive me.

Uh it look I I'd be walking through an airport. And I'm going into the store there maybe to get a bottle of water or cough drops or something. And I looked down, and there's some scantily clad gal on a front of a magazine. And I look down and I glance back for a second.

Well, I didn't need to do that. That that was wrong. Sinful No, I didn't get condemned to hell for that. No, I didn't suddenly become the world's worst wretch on the earth. No, but I I look away, Father Forgive me, Lord.

Wash me. I'm an omen. I'm God's child. I'm a son. I'm called to be holy.

That's beneath me, that's defiling, that's wrong. Yeah. When I'm conscious of something, I immediately ask forgiveness. I immediately receive cleansing and I go on.

Now, I'm already a forgiven child of God. Again, this is not the forgiveness of salvation, this is the forgiveness of relationship. If I choose to walk away from God entirely and renounce Him, He will not force me to stay. In which case I renounce the forgiveness, I renounce God. And and I'm lost.

But you don't live with this mentality. Oh, I forgot to. Did I confess every last sin? Did I confess it?

Well, I've. Your salvation is not hanging on that. This is the cleansing that comes by way of relationship. 866-34-TRUTH. We go to Long Island.

Glenn, welcome to the line of fire. Hello, hey, hey, Glenn. Hey. How are you? I'm blessed.

Good. Listen, Michael, I know your topic is GRACE today. I'm just talking about GRACE specifically, the LGBTQ. And some of your critics, Michael, who feel that you Michael, some people feel, you know, that a spiritual predator, you know, like you behind a microphone. poses a far greater danger to women and children Than any predator that women and children will ever meet in any bathroom.

How would you respond to those critics, Michael? What do you mean by a spiritual predator?

Well It's not my words. This is their words. I'm just relating to you what your critics. They say a spiritual predator. is basically apostate or apostate or something.

Maybe they'd accuse me of laying guilt trips on somebody or condemning innocent people or driving people to despair and suicide. I answer with the truth, Glenn. I say the message that here's how I answer the critics. The message that we bring is a message of life and hope. And transformation and salvation.

The message that we bring is a message of the love of God. The message that we bring is that Jesus died for gay and straight. all alike and that all of us can be cleansed through his blood. Michael, where's the grace to writing a book? Where's the grace in writing a book, A Fag a Thing Happened to America?

Is there any grace in that at all? I didn't write that book. What book did you write? I wrote a queer thing happened to America because queer. Oh, yeah, well, hang on.

Hang on. One second. Yeah, I'm glad to talk with you, Glenn. We've got a break coming up. But I used the title.

I talked to many gay people about the title. I thought it was a fun thing. They all thought it was a funny title. Because queer, that's the whole thing. Queer has been normalized.

You ever hear Queer Eye for the Straight Guy? That's old. Associated Press 2003 said queer is mainstream, it's hipster now.

So this is this old school. You do queer studies. Queer identity, gender queer. Elementary school kids learn about this in some places. That's why I use the word.

Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire. Hey Glenn, are you still there, sir? Yes, I am, Mike. Great. Yep, yep.

So let me just give you an example. If anyone took the time to read A Queer Thing Happened to America, and again, I use the word because it's become mainstream. If it was offensive, I never would have used it. And that's why I talk to plenty of Gays, lesbians about it, even chat it with, you know, they all laughed. They thought it was a clever title.

Nobody. Was offended by the title, except for some conservative Christians who weren't in touch with the times. But anyone reading the book. Would say, wow, you really understand LGBT perspective. You really lay it out clearly.

And here's an example: a gal named Amber, I only know her through Facebook.

Okay. When she started coming on Facebook, she. She identified as bisexual, okay? She's reading my book, Can You Be Gay and Christian? Just posted this last night.

I just wanted to say that I'm grateful for people like you who speak against homosexuality, but with tact and full of God's love. I still haven't finished your book about Can You Be Gaying Christian?

However, I would like to state it is very logical and full of God's love at the same time. On the page, you also speak out against homosexuality, but do so with tact. On your Facebook page, you speak out against homosexuality, but do so with tact, love, and it is evident you care about gays. You weep over them. You take soul winning seriously.

And even though you are imperfect like the rest of us, you truly give it your all through Jesus to help gays accept the truth. And she goes on and on, sharing her own story and how she no longer identifies as bisexual.

So that's why I answer him with the truth. I said, just okay, that's fine. But what about Rachel Held Evans, New York Times bestseller list? And Rachel will tell you straight out. She has beat friends at LGBTQ.

who she said, let me give you her words, Michael, that had experienced the absolute worst that the church has to offer.

So you're talking about all these gays that are going, oh, Michael, this is great, but there's many in the LGBT, Michael, that have been offended by you. Is there any grace in that? No, there's not grace on their side. Absolutely not on their side when they come out with hateful. You should see the hate I get, the vilification.

It on that, but let's not just lay this on. We're talking about your side, not their side, Michael. There's always Grace on Glenn. Glenn, there's always, always grace on my side. Always.

24-7. In fact, Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, would you let me talk? Would you let me talk?

Okay, all right, we're we're good, we're good. All right, number one. I've reached out to Rachel Held Evans, invited her on the radio show several times, and wrote a gracious, open letter to her. She's always declined to come on. That's number one.

Number two, I have, for over 10 years, apologized publicly, even in the presence of several hundred gays, lesbians, and on national TV and other settings. I have publicly apologized for the failings of the church in their insensitivity to the struggles of those who identify as LGBT. I start off my book, Can You Be Gay and Christian, with the goal of breaking the heart of the church and showing how we have often been insensitive, how we've painted them as the worst of sinners, and on and on. When I deal with transgender issues, I always say the goal is to help people from the inside out. No one would just choose to be like that.

They obviously have struggles. I've gotten on my knees and wept over these issues and said, God, I don't want to hurt people. And I know if I tell the truth, no matter how loving, people will get upset. I want to help people, not hurt people.

So I take these things very, very seriously. And no doubt, Glenn, there are people that are upset with me when I say that two men or two women marrying is not marriage in God's sight. No matter how gently I say it, I will offend people. I understand that. But Jesus embodied grace and truth together.

So Michael, you don't know it. LGBT is real or imagined? What is it? Is it real or imagined? Your private war with LGBT, real or imagined?

I don't have a private war with anyone.

Alright, so let's imagine. It's imagine. Differences with gay activism. I love gays and lesbians. Your average.

Michael, did Christ died for a gay activ activist? Yes, he did. Yes, he did. What is the problem with loving gay activists? I do love gay activists.

Are you not listening to me? Why do we separate them from the rest of the LGBTQ community, Michael? I didn't. I said, I differ with their Glenn. You're not listening.

So that's the problem. People don't listen. That's the big problem. By the way, for someone who's just using somebody else's words, you're doing a great job. It almost sounds like you feel this way yourself.

If I didn't know better, I'd think that you feel this way yourself. But let me answer you. Go ahead, Michael. I'm talking over you, Michael. No good.

Hey, we're both New Yorkers, but let me speak here. Michael, I'm going to be honest with you. I am sensitive about these issues. I just can't isolate a people group. But I'm not isolating anyone.

I'm not isolating anyone. Here, I here's what go ahead, go ahead, just listen. Glang, glang, glang, glang, glang, glang, glang, glang. This is not working. You keep apologizing, but this is not working.

So. Please listen, sir. Please listen. All right.

I did not start this. I did not start. Getting gay curriculum. in schools beginning in nursery schools. where there's a nursery school right right in my home city.

Where the tee for years now The teachers in the nursery school cannot say Boys and girls, because that's making a gender distinction. Instead, they have to call everybody friends. I didn't start this. I didn't start this where when you go to a Christian photographer And say, we would like you to film our gay commitment ceremony or a gay wedding, and the photographer says, No, I'm sorry, I'm a Christian, I can't do that, that they get fined and they lose their job. I didn't start that.

I didn't start with the threats and the intimidation coming from gay activists and their allies. for 11 years now. For 11 years now. My philosophy has been very simple. Reach out and resist.

Reach out to the people with compassion. resist the agenda with courage.

So in North Carolina right now, we're in the thick of an issue where we don't think it's a good idea for biological males to come into the ladies' locker room and shower room of the YMCA.

So that doesn't mean I hate anybody. It means I care about the women and So Glenn, what am I saying that's not gospel? What am I saying that's not Jesus? What about the people who want to get beyond that and get on with the Great Commission and the Great Commandment? To be bogged down in all these issues, yesterday's headlines, tomorrow's headlines, the next day's headlines, when are you going to round to the Great Commission?

The Great Commandment of extending grace to your fellow sufferer? You know, tell you what. As we sit here right now. The school that I founded has raised up a missions movement. that has missionaries all around the world day and night.

preaching the gospel. As I speak, they are serving the poor, winning the lost, rescuing children. Hey, Glenn Glenn, every day of my life, I am involved in the Great Commission. I fly to England this weekend, not to speak about social issues, but to preach the gospel. I'm involved in Jewish outreach day and night, and I'm going to be able to do it.

I'm doing what Jesus said, which is being solved. And light, so tell you what. I got a recommendation for you. Instead of you getting all upset with me for doing what God called me to do, How about you going out and winning souls and not wasting your time attacking me with a phone call? Does that sound like a good idea?

And if your kid or grandkid comes home saying, Daddy, Grandpa, there was a man in my bathroom, say, hey, just preach Jesus to him. Mm-hmm. My bottom line. today. The grace of God is not grace without responsibility.

All the more are we responsible because of grace.

Alright, there's some people who say just forget about secular marriage and just have spiritual marriage. Is there any historical precedent to this? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome to the Line of Fire: 866-34 Truth. The end of last hour. I got a classic call. Just classic. Hard to describe.

You'll be able to listen to it later today. Go to askdrbrown.org. sdrbrown.org. In fact, we're we're going to post it on YouTube. You won't be able to see it, but you'll be able to listen to it.

Just a class classic call. You have to love it. But I can't get into that right now because I've got a really interesting subject to take up with you. Really, really interesting. By the way, If you have not yet read my open letter to Bruce Springsteen.

It's really gone viral. It's on numerous websites and getting lots of shares on numerous websites. But where it was first posted on the stream, stream.org. It's been shared.

Well, when I last looked, it was 114,000 times. With over 2,200 comments on the page. That was a little while ago. We'll see what it's up to, but it's obviously hit a nerve. Through the day, beginning this morning, and through the day, I'm doing what is it, six different interviews with different radio stations, wanting to talk about it.

So if you haven't read it, by all means, do. But we're going to talk about something really interesting today. And I may even be able to get to some calls on it as well. Eight six six three four eight seven Eight. Eight four.

I was at a conference and a gentleman came up to talk to me. See ya. Came up to talk to me, and he was talking about marriage. He's written on this. and he was talking about marriage, saying, Look, If we want to be biblical and even in keeping with the early American philosophy.

We need to completely forget about secular marriage. Let the world do whatever it wants to do with marriage. Let the world do what whatever. Whatever it wants to do with marriage and we just have church marriage. We just marry before God.

Now to me, that sounded like a big cop-out. To me, that sounded like we were shunning our responsibility. To me it it sounded like capitulating. and just letting the world do what it wants or capitulating to gay activism, whatever. But he he had some very interesting points.

Very, very interesting points. And I said, all right, tell you what, let's talk about it. On the air.

So, in a couple minutes, we're going to get to that. And if you have a question, I'll probably be able to take a couple of calls. I don't know how many I'll be able to get to in the next half hour. But it's going to be a fascinating discussion. Number to call is 866-348-7884.

Just got this announcement here, and I don't know when this was issued. But just saw this now. Governor McCrory signs executive order to protect privacy and equality. Following the fallout from North Carolina's House Bill 2, North Carolina Governor Pat McCory has signed an executive order to protect the privacy and equality of all North Carolinians. According to the Governor's Office, Executive Order 93 clarifies existing state law and provides new protections for North Carolina residents.

The executive order comes in response to backlash from House Bill 2, which was signed into law in late March.

So I've got to find out exactly what this is about, but according to the governor's office, the executive order does the following. It maintains common sense gender-specific restroom and locker room facilities in government buildings and schools. It affirms the privacy sector's right to establish its own restroom and locker room policies. It affirms the private sector and local government's right to establish its own non-discrimination employment policies for its own employees. Expands the state's employment policy for state employees to cover sexual orientation and gender identity.

We shall see. God of light, hear our cry, send a fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire 86634. Truth. I'm speaking with Joshua Jolly. And Joshua has an interesting proposal. about marriage.

An interesting proposal about Biblical marriage versus secular marriage. Even in light of American history. As I was mentioning, we met at a conference some months back. Joshua told me about what he had written. I was skeptical.

I had questions. Because I felt that this could be some type of. Uh capitulation. To gay activism or cultural changes or things like that. And he began to discuss the history of America with me.

So we're going to have a discussion about this on the air. Joshua, thanks for joining us on the line of fire today. Thank you, Dr. Brown. It's a pleasure to be here.

All right, Joshua, tell us what you've written and give us the overview. We'll dig into it. I'll ask my skeptical questions, questions some based on knowledge, some based on not having studied certain things in our history. But give me the overall thesis, the name of what you've written, the overall thesis.

Okay. Um Thank you. And the title of the book is The Biblical Marriage for God or Government. And the premise And the idea behind it is basically I don't think that it's in Christian's best interest to get a marriage license Based on biblical reasoning as well as just legal reasoning. All right, so let's first start with your biblical reasoning, then we'll go legally.

And the thing that most fascinated with me, Joshua, most fascinated me, was when you talked about American history. And how marriage was looked at in American history. And that's the thing I've really studied the least, to be honest. I've studied different aspects of American history, but never that.

So, first, give me your biblical argument, then your legal argument, then, let's talk history.

Okay, that sounds great. Thank you, Dr. Brown. The biblical argument is I was meditating on Matthew twenty two, I believe it is, where Jesus is with the Pharisees and they're talking about giving to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And so Jesus broadens the scope of the conversation away from just taxes.

There's more to it than that. And so I was pondering, you know. What do I want to give to God? And. In the process over time, I thought, you know, I want to give my marriage to God, and if we have freedom of religion.

in our country, then I don't understand why There's a license. And so from that point, I began to look into the license and what that actually meant and what that actually represented. And so when I delved into the United States history, Uh the marriage license first came about in the 1800s and It was in North Carolina and Tennessee that it was established blacks and whites. to get a marriage license because it was illegal at the time for Blacks and whites to be married. And so they came up with a license.

And so from there, it developed in our country to where in nineteen oh nine, There was a meeting with several of the states where they got together and they said, you know what, we want to expressly get together and abolish the idea of common law marriage.

Now up until this point, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson None of those none none of none of them had the marriage license. And so the state's got together and by 1929 they made it so all the states had um the Marriage License Act. which was established. At that point. And then um One of the things that I looked into also was the fact that the U.S.

Supreme Court earlier than 1929, 1877, Meister v. Moore. ruled that you can't force people to, in fact, sign the marriage license. It's more voluntary or directory is the legal term they use. All right, so let's just talk practically for a moment before we go back in history.

When when Nancy and I got married in 1976, All that we were thinking about was joining our lives together for the rest of our lives in the sight of God. That was the issue. And then suddenly I just had a sign. You know, now you're done. Sign this, and whatever the pastor signed it, and okay, now we're done, we're official.

But on a practical level, there were issues, be it tax returns, be it if we were sending our kids to a Christian school, we were the parents, be it checking into a hotel together, and we're husband and wife. Because there are places that, you know, if you weren't married, they wouldn't let you share a room. You know, in times past here in the States.

So there are just lots of practical things. I didn't really think about it, but. The more you do think about it, there are tons of laws that apply to married people or benefits that you have or whatever, or things for your children.

So, how How do we just ignore all that now? Let's just say that your recounting of the history is accurate. Then, how do we? Get away from what's the law of the land and hundreds and hundreds of different things that intersect with the secular aspects of the fact that we have an official marriage license. Great question, Dr.

Brown. Thank you. Looked into some of these things, and I wondered the same thing. Like, if I get married without a marriage license, am I still going to be able to file taxes together? Great question.

Are there additional benefits for having a marriage license that wouldn't be available otherwise? Without a marriage license. And so, as I did my research and I investigated these things, and actually talked with other colleagues. Christians who didn't signed the marriage license. Um in my book I I With a lady named Trish, and I asked her her story.

They were convicted about the marriage license and didn't sign it and proceeded to you know, she changed her name. None of the elements that kind of rise up in those questions were an issue. They filed taxes together. She changed her name. Um Custody and children, and all of these things that were questions weren't even an issue.

Basically, they had a legal marriage. And they proceeded to um live that life And without the marriage license. All right, and and how did they demonstrate that they had a legal marriage?

So what they did was she just assumed his name. She changed her social security number or card. And and then they obviously had a family together, lived together and held themselves out to be married, they had a marriage ceremony. And if You are interested in not having the marriage license, all that is taking place. Is there's just a relationship change.

And so when you go to the court, you need to simply And so there are key elements. the add up to where they Court will say, obviously, these people are married. You know, they lived together, they've had a wedding ceremony, there's wedding pictures and. There was um But what if you didn't have what if you didn't have wedding pictures? What if he didn't document it?

What if it was just you know you just wanted t to make this sacred between you and God so the pastor came over to your house? and did the ceremony. And you had best man and maid of honor witnessed it, but you didn't take pictures. You just wanted this to be between you and God. Or you didn't have the capability of taking pictures that day.

And so so If there's no documentation, You're still saying that you've got to prove something to the world, so I don't know. Why that's any different. I'm not being adversarial, I'm just trying to probe here. It still doesn't. It still doesn't tell me that there's any any real reason not to just have a secular license.

I mean, it hasn't affected me in any way, hasn't hurt me, hasn't dragged me down, I haven't had a compromise over it.

So why should we withdraw in that respect?

So But by definition, a license. means that the ability to do something which would otherwise be illegal. And so What we're doing in a sense as Christians is we're admitting like a man and a woman to get married is illegal when we sign that document. And what God said was good. isn't, and it's actually a criminal offense.

But thankfully, we went to the state And thankfully they gave us permission to get married and now we're in a three way contract or covenant Uh between husband. about wife and the state. But isn't it really the opposite of that, that the state is obligated to recognize the marriage. that all you have to do is go through the ceremony. And as long as the person is ordained or is Has the authority to do it, which gives some protection, you know, otherwise, just get some homeless guy on the street and say, hey, pronounce us married.

You know, so there should be some authority or some accountability with it. But you can be ordained. You have a church of four people. And ordain somebody, and then that person can marry me. You don't have to jump through all kinds of hoops.

But the state is now obligated the state can't say, Well, we don't like that church or Jehovah's Witnesses, that's a cult, or you don't have enough people in the denomination. No, it's just an automatic that you're now registered.

So isn't the state now subservient to whatever the church does? And you don't need a justice of the peace because you have the authority to do it? Um So w what is it that you're specifically getting at? Because it seems like In other words, there's no reason to not do it. It's practical.

There's no reason to not get a marriage license. In other words, there's no reason not to, because I don't need the state's recognition to say I'm married, but for practical purposes, because I live here. You know, just like I have a social security number, I live here, certain things, so it's by way of identification. Tell you what, we got a break. We'll get an answer on the other side.

Thanks. Sure. Around the new sign, shake the nation, change the world. Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Joshua Jolly. He's written the book, Biblical Marriage, and his point. His point is that we should not even get involved with civil marriage, with secular marriage, that we get married before God. And that we just document it, and if the courts question it because we don't sign a marriage license, we say, Well, we went through the name change anyway, and you know, the wife did, and here's the documentation of the wedding, and that's sufficient. Uh, so, Joshua, just a larger question: do you have An ideological view of how the church should relate to government, or are you libertarian in your thinking?

Where do you come down on that?

Well, I'm a fan of the Constitution, and I think that Believers should follow the Constitution and the the way in which this nation was Structured. And being that one, the government has in the Bill of Rights. indicated that we have freedom of religion.

So basically the authority of the Bible Um is where Followers of Jesus come from in terms of how they proceed and honor the authority of the land because the Constitution is. the highest authority the president is To be subject to it, the senators, governors. And so I'm all for obeying the laws. as it pertains to what this country was set up upon. And how do you feel it would help believers to not get Marriage licenses.

And so, again, you're just talking about a ceremony in a church. You can document it in the church. Whatever congregation you're part of, or your house group, and that's the extent of it. What's the advantage in your eyes?

So the question for me was is the government holy? And should we be covenanting with The States In this case. uh in our marriages. And What does the Bible say, and what does the law of the land say? It was interesting to note that I discovered that on Ohio's website, that they say that uh marriage is a legal, spiritual and personal relationship.

And the spiritual element really stuck out to me because I thought, well, There's God is not mentioned anywhere in the terms and conditions. He's left out completely. And if atheists and agnostics are getting married in Ohio, They don't even believe that there's a God, so then where is the spiritual element coming in? As I looked into this further, it kind of seems that the state is setting itself up as God. and parent to give permission to do something which God has always said is good and holy.

And so Being now that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that homosexuals can get a marriage license. The government doesn't even know what the definition truly is for marriage. And so why as Christians are we going to come into agreement with this unholy, ungodly body of law where we can be set apart Which is the message I believe through Genesis to Revelation. You know, Abraham left his homeland.

And in Revelation he says, come out from Babylon. and be set apart to me. And so I I just have a heart for marriage. There's something clearly wrong and I i in our Christian community because divorce is so high. And so is this An attachment is this like in Deuteronomy seven, where we're covenanting with the nations around us.

And it says in verse 3 not to marry in with them. Right, but that's intermarrying. But I mean, let's be honest there. That's talking about Israelites intermarrying with Canaanites. It's not talking about a government recognizing marriage.

And let's also be honest that we had marriage licenses quite a while before we had this divorce explosion.

So you've got to look deeper than that. I can understand if you say, hey, the government doesn't give us a recognition of our baptism. That's not their role. And marriage is a is a sacred ceremony and that we don't need the government recognition. I understand that.

You know, again, for me, there's and I had you on the air. To talk about it. I thought, okay, interesting, let's discuss it. To me, though, look, the fact that people can marry in all kinds of marriages that are sinful in God's sight. That doesn't mean anything.

In other words, someone can be divorced seven times and no grounds for the divorce and marry again. They can do that under the state.

So we've just further messed up marriage with our current redefinition. But let me just play a clip for you, and we'll interact based on this. This goes back a few years. It's July 10th, 2013, Gay USA with Ann Northrup and Andy Hum. It's an LGBT news show, and they're speaking with James Essex, the director of the ACLU Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and AIDS programming.

project a clip number five. These religious freedom arguments, these religious exemption arguments, Are so powerful because they could completely eviscerate the nondiscrimination norms that we have already passed in States and that we are trying to pass in at the federal government level and in other states as well. And so these are not places where it makes sense for us to compromise as a community because it's going to. it's going to completely undermine the quality principles that we need. All right, so Joshua, here's the question.

Gay activists there were saying that if we have religious freedoms protections, right, if we have, for example, um The bakers do not have to bake a cake. They do not have to bake a cake for a gay couple any more than they would have to bake a cake for atheists who wanted to say, put on the cake, there is no God. You know, they're free not to do that because the religious beliefs that this would completely eviscerate. Completely eviscerate all of the gay activist advances. Couldn't the argument be made that if Christians now just say, okay, we've got nothing to do with civil marriage, we've got nothing to do with marriages and intersex with the state, that now it's a complete withdrawal.

Rather than being salt and light into society, it's a complete withdrawal and a complete capitulation. That's obviously been a concern. Again, you're coming in from a different angle, which I respect. But when some say just pull out, to me, no, we're supposed to make a difference and bring positive influence and change as opposed to let society collapse on its own.

So you get the last word in. Thank you. That's a great, great point, great question. I look at it differently is God has called his people to be in the world but not of it. We don't need to go and beg for permission to do something that isn't criminal.

we can clearly get married. And we can be salt and light by being following the Bible and its example. Because there's, you know, no need to be connected to the state. Pop. The belief is that our marriages will be thriving, that there is Life in them because we're going back towards the Bible.

We're not going along with the world and being. unequally yoked in a sense to what's going on. Yep. All right.

I understand that. And um uh again From my perspective, I never once thought Of bending to the world or bowing to the world or being yoked with the world by just something being recognized. But I appreciate the perspective of the book, Biblical Marriage. Hey, Josh, thanks for coming on and discussing it. And I will.

You do have me thinking about American history. I'm definitely going to look back at our history. Thanks so much. Thank you so much, Dr. Brown.

Have a wonderful day. All right, you too. Hey friends, just a reminder, just a reminder to you. My new book, The Grace Controversy, will be out in less than three weeks. Answers to the 12 most common questions on grace, including: Is God always pleased with us?

Does he always see us as righteous? Can we lose our salvation? Practical, edifying, eye-opening. And you can pre-order a signed, numbered copy, a signed, numbered copy for just $20. Postage pay.

Go to ask Dr. Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown. Or It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire. In the first hour. At the end of the first hour, I got a fascinating phone call. from a fellow on Long Island, who asked me, what about grace towards the gay and lesbian community? but asked some very aggressive questions, Asked about What about folks who Call me a spiritual predator and hurt I mean, just bizarre stuff and misquoted the name of a book that I wrote.

And it sounds as if he believed all these things, but he was saying, Why deal with social issues when we should just give ourselves to the Great Commission? I said, Well, we reach out to everyone. We reach out to everyone. with love, compassion. We tell the truth to everyone, and we stand against gay activism.

We can do both. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. Joey, grab clip number six. I want you to hear this. In response to Caller Glenn from Long Island.

Who said look Many gays and lesbians are offended. with my positions or offended with what I say.

So look. I'm going to speak the truth, but I'm going to speak it with grace. I can't help them for being offended, but I will not be personally. Offensive. I want you to hear from this caller Named Chase A man who had struggled with homosexuality.

I want you to hear what he has to say. Clip number six. I'm actually um an X gay individual myself. And um there's definitely great that you were able to put that face forward. Um certainly there's going to be um people from the gate community.

listening in and put that face forward that, you know, we are not Uh angry hate mongers. Um I I'm grateful and I'm very appreciative for the work that you do and the work that you're putting forward because it's Really helping people like me to come and step out into the light and tell my story of. What's been going on in my life, and how God has been working a miracle in me.

So I'm so grateful that. You were able to do that civilly. Yeah, and Chase was talking about a conversation I had with Professor John Corvino. He is a philosophy professor. I've interacted with him face-to-face and by phone.

Seems like a genuinely nice guy. He is out and proud as a gay leader, often addressing these issues in writing. And he and I had a very civil conversation about some of these very issues on the air. Afterward, Chase called, as someone who'd come out of homosexuality, to thank me for the civility and tone. of of what I do and how I do it.

So look, Jesus embodied grace and truth together. And that's what we have to do. We don't forsake grace for the sake of truth. We don't forsake truth for the sake of grace. We bring grace and truth together as one.

We are not offensive. and what we say and do, The truth may offend people. But we are not offensive in our tone. And our demeanor. in our attitude, and then let the chips fall where they may.

People are still gonna hate you. People are still going to revile you. People are going to say all kinds of things about you, but let it be that they say them about you. falsely. Let it be that they say them about you.

Falsely because You are walking in love and concern. Look. If you go to a doctor. And the doctor sits you down and said, I I'm really sorry to tell you this. But we've discovered a a a very, very serious condition.

We're going to need emergency surgery. And we're going to have to do our best to get you through this because it's life-threatening. You're not going to be happy that he told you that, but you know he doesn't hate you. You know, he's motivated by love.

So I would think that a man like Chase, who wrestled with homosexuality, has a better perspective on what I'm saying and how I'm saying it than. This gentleman Glenn, who just seemed to drink in what the critics have said, without basis. Grace and truth together. Boy. What a powerful package.

Around the new shine. Shaking the shine. Change the world. Change the world. It's fire we want.

For fire we please. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome to the line of fire, 866-348-7884, the number to call.

Well Somebody sent me a note on social media over the weekend. Dr. Brown, why don't you write an open letter to Bruce Springsteen? Because he said he's not going to come to North Carolina. The concert would have been on Sunday.

He's not going to do a concert in Greensboro. And once you write an open letter to him, I thought, well, I don't know. I don't know. He was upset with the bathroom privacy bill that the governor signed into law. And then when I saw.

Sunday, I think early afternoon, I saw that one of his band members had uh a guitarist had called the Bill HB two in in North Carolina an evil virus. And I thought, you know, I'm going to write this. I wrote an open letter, just flowed very naturally. I sent it out. It normally gets posted on a number of different places.

Immediately, I heard back from an editor at the stream. He said, let's get this up now. And within hours of writing it, it was taking off right now on the stream, stream.org. It's been shared.

Well, last I looked 118,000 times with over 2,300 comments. Just today, doing six radio interviews on this subject. Obviously, it hit a nerve. And I'm with the man that birthed the stream, Reverend James Robinson. James, thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire.

Well, Dr. Michael Brown, it is a privilege to be with you, and you are simply a manifestation of what I believe God wants to. inspire people to reach out with truth In love. Ask serious questions raise things that need to be considered and even addressed carefully. You did it magnificently.

Governor Huckabee and I were talking last night, and he said Matter of fact, we had talked and he's he said, I'm going to read what Michael wrote He immediately texted back and said, It is absolutely one of the greatest articles I have ever read in my life. And he said, the wonderful points of wisdom that he raised. He said, I just think it's great. And this is really what we want with the stream. There is a river.

whose streams make glad, the city of God, tributaries of wisdom, sharing inspiration and insight, so essential in our day when darkness seems to be prevailing, and you are a treasure A marvelous gift. to us as Americans and freedom lovers and people of faith. and Christians And I just want to thank you for being such a great inspiration to all of us. Thank you, sir.

Well, thank you. And it's an honor to be on the same team. Much appreciated. And I just thought it was so appropriate because of the vision and purpose of the stream that this article has gone so viral and that Jonathan, one of the editors, immediately said, let's get this up. Can we still win the battle for common sense in America.

Uh can we still turn hearts and minds? It seems really impossible without some kind of awakening. Are people still capable of thinking through issues?

Well, I don't think people are going to be awakened unless they hear the kind of thinking that rather than intimidate or manipulate or dominate actually inspires and stimulates thinking and proper action. I believe if people can hear common sense rather than the continual harangue. And misrepresentation and distortion of the truth that the media seems so bent on, and that polarized groups are so committed to. If you let the average American hear the truth, I don't care if it's Bernie Sanders' crowd that says, hey, we got problems and we need help. Problem with Bernie Sanders is the help he's offering has proven to fail throughout all of human history.

What he is offering is sheer poverty guaranteed for everybody. And if they really want help, well, let's try to offer it to them. They don't even condemning. Bernie, he's at least saying, I know you got some problems. But let's offer those concerned people common sense answers.

And that's what the stream is seeking to do. The beautiful thing about the stream that I'm so pleased with is the people committed to share on the stream. are committed to what's best for others. They are not. Simply self-serving, self-seeking people that have selfish ambition alone.

They understand what it means to have. legitimate self-interest. without being driven by selfishness and self-centeredness.

So they have an interest for themselves and their family, but they also want the best for everyone else.

Now that sounds like the Father who wants best and knows best, and that would be our Creator, our God, in whose image we are created.

So I think if you really let people hear the truth delivered, From people who really care about them. And you can tell they care about them. They're not driven by greed. Greed is ugly, it's easy to identify. It is not something that people can cheer on.

And yet, it is the result oftentimes of the blessings freedom offer, in which they then take advantage of the freedom and its blessings, and they become consumed by their idolatrous practices. that freedom actually makes possible because you can be that successful.

Well, let's not condemn the fertile fields of opportunity and freedom's blessing because of foolish, stupid, self-centered. Self-serving, self-indulgent, idolatrous people. Let's listen to the truth that makes us breathe. is important to keep us free. And let's experience the blessings of that freedom.

And for heaven's sake, as America has done so effectively, Let's share those blessings with others. That's the purpose of the stream. That's the will of the father who truly knows best for the family. And that's what we're going to spend the rest of our lives trying to share with others because we do love them. We don't just love ourselves and care about ourselves, we love others.

And when people somehow think that we are trying to impose. Our value system on them or institute a theocracy as if we're going to appoint the evangelist, you know, the president of the United States, they're going to take over Congress and everyone has to go to church on Sunday, otherwise, they'll be flogged in the public square. No, no, no. Quite the contrary. What we're saying is, you know.

God's ways are best. You've written on it. I've got a book I'm working on. As I was looking at your newest manuscript, I thought we're in sync. And you've written on this before with Team with Jay Richards to basically say: you know, if we'll follow biblical principles in the world, they work best.

If we live by biblical principles of family, and honor and the sanctity of life and And a good work ethic and generosity and care for one's neighbor, these actually have a life-giving effect for all of society. And scholars have demonstrated that where biblical knowledge has spread in a society, it's led to much more humanitarian treatment of others. It's led to the building of hospitals, caring for the poor, better education, because God's ways are ways of life. And obviously, on the stream, what you have is folks who are specialists in economy, and specialists in moral issues, and specialists in politics. And they're saying, let's apply God's ways to all of these different things in society, and we'll see the wisdom of God.

It's best for everybody.

Well, I actually have an article that is right there under Voices on the screen just above yours. That asked the question: Was Jesus the meanest person who ever lived? And I use a parallel about another high-rise being bombed. and a very caring, compassionate, courageous man with outstretched arms, pointing everyone to the absolute only way of escape. and the and what took place.

I think that it will be very moving to everyone if they'll go there in line. Everyone needs to read your article and forward it. But you also need to ask the question, when Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, Not one of the many ways, but the way I am the truth, and I am the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me. Was that a mean statement? If in fact he is the only way to life now, life abundant and life eternal.

Well, read what I said. Read the comparison in an everyday event that could happen, has happened, and just draw your own conclusions. And I think you'll find that Jesus is probably as great an expression of love And of truth that you will ever consider in all of history. And the fact is, he lives today. Yeah, and when he says on the way, the truth, and the life, just over the weekend, I was writing and I looked at the Greek word zoe, which many people know is the Greek word for life.

And I just looked at how many times it occurs in the Gospel of John. Whoever believes has eternal life, I'm the resurrection and the life. I'm the bread of life, the water of life, and on and on. The way, the truth, and the life. These are written so you may have life by believing.

And then 1 John, which focuses on Jesus, repeats life, life, life over and again.

So we're saying, God's ways are ways of life. The way of the world is a way of death. God's ways are the ways of life. Hey, we've got one minute left. Your closing thoughts.

Well, religion is not the way. And you can take the Christian religion and all the other religions and just look at religion without the relationship that Christ is inviting us to experience. Through a personal relationship with him as the mediator between God and man, the way to the Father. And so we must make it very clear. We're not talking about the traditions of men being taught as the commandments of God.

We're talking about a relationship that transforms our hearts and minds so that we know what real love is, and we know what the expression of truth and love is, and we know what it is to love the father and the family. And really, there are a lot of people trapped in religion, even in churches, who do not have the love of God, they do not have the relationship with God. Both Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical. All different areas, if we don't have a relationship with God. Then we do not have the life that Christ was talking about, offered, and gave His life to make possible.

Yeah, John 17, 3, this is eternal life that they may know you, the only true God Jesus, the Messiah, whom you sent. James, thank you for your words of life. Go to stream.org, read James Robinson's article about Jesus. Was he mean? And my open letter to Bruce Springsteen, thanks again for joining us.

Oh God of burning, cleansing flames. Say And the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire. 86634Truth. We go to the phones in York, Pennsylvania. Amber, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Do uh Dr.

Michael Brown.

It's nice to be on your show.

Well, nice to talk to you. What's up, Amber?

Well, someone messaged me and let me know that you mentioned what I wrote to you yesterday on your show and that you got an angry call from somebody. And I just wanted to come on here and, first of all, like I said, commend you for the love that you're showing the LGBT community and for the love that you've shown me through your postings and just, you know, doing what God's telling you to do, even though people are coming towards you with hate. And I will say that if you want to have been loving the way God led you to be, I probably would still be in denial about my sexuality right now. And because of the way God used you, He did leave me to surrender my sexuality and have cured me. of bisexuality.

So like just ignore the haters and like quite honestly, the people that are just coming against you don't want to see the truth. I was stubborn. I didn't want to see the truth. I wanted God to affirm my sin. I wanted to believe it was the way.

But, you know, God had along with me and showed me that, you know, it wasn't the way and that He had something better planned for me.

Well, Amber, I'm thrilled to hear from you. And yes, I do recognize you from Facebook, and I did read the comments I had spotted them, and they were very, very kind, gracious words. But above all, I was thrilled to hear about what's happening in your own life. Hey, Amber, how old are you? I am twenty-five.

Twenty-five. And at what point did you begin to identify as bisexual?

Well, I was eight years old, and a girl in public school made a move on me. And I started developing feelings for this girl. And ever since then, that's when I thought I was bisexual, that and I thought it was normal. I had no one to guide me, to tell me what was right from wrong. And I had a very bad childhood, I was abused.

and went through a lot of hell and still Like, I just thought it was normal. And, you know, I just went with it. And I knew about the Lord, but. You know, I received a lot of hate from people, true hate, and was not loved by anybody. I wasn't willing to listen to reason because of the treatment I was getting.

So you receive hate from people that claim to be Christians? Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's it happens. That's why I've publicly apologized for the way the many Christians have often treated gay and lesbian community.

So it was as if there's something wrong with you. You're like you're the worst of sinners. Is that the kind of treatment you got? Yeah, that's the term. Treatment of God, and that God hated me.

And you know, like, I remember I was like 15 in church, and I was struggling with my sexuality so bad, but I wanted to please the Lord, and I asked, I was like, Is the ambisexual sin? And, you know, the teachers didn't answer me, but this one girl right next to me, you know, just got a snobby look on her face and said, you know, you they are just disgusting and started saying a bunch of this other stuff and it made me feel less sad. Like all that stuff led me to almost killing myself twice. I I in your book you mention prayers for Bobby. The devil tried using that movie to try to get me to commit suicide just like Bobby did.

And, you know, if it wasn't for signs from God, you know, I wouldn't be here right now. And the reason you were suicidal was you felt rejected by God or there was something fundamentally that disqualified something inherently wrong inside of you is what was it that drove the suicidal thoughts? I thought I wasn't good enough for God, I'd been. rejected my whole life. And God is teaching me, you know, not to care what people think.

But I what's important to me is what God thinks of me, and I still have a hard time believing He loves me.

So what drove me to want to kill myself and screaming to Him and yelling at Him was I just wanted to please Him. I couldn't understand Why would he make me that way and then send me to hell for it? And it just made me feel like I was just a piece of traffic. Crash, no good. And that's what drove me to want to kill myself because I just felt like I wasn't worth it to him.

Yeah, and it's so painful to hear it because kids grew up in church. And they have this feeling. that if I have these desires If I am attracted to the same sex rather than the opposite sex, then somehow either God made me like this because He hates me, I'm predestined to this, or I'm just flawed and He has no place for me. As opposed to saying every human being is broken, one way or another, every human being has some wrong desire or some wrong attraction or some wrong attitude. We're fundamentally broken, that's why we all need a Savior.

Jesus didn't just die for some people, for the bad people, but not for the good. No, He died for everybody because everybody's fundamentally flawed and broken and needs a Savior.

So, Amber, when you first. ran into us on on Facebook. And, you know, we get. Hundreds of thousands of comments, and I don't see everything, but somehow I spotted some of your comments. You were weighing in from someone that seemed to be identifying as bisexual, but.

and you weren't there to challenge. And so I began to look with interest. But first, how did you stumble across or come across our Facebook page? And then when you started to interact, where were you at in your journey? If I remember correctly, I am talking with this author who's she's a Christian author, an actress, and a singer.

And I read her book called Hide from the Sky on the Road to Happily Ever After. And I've been talking with her on Facebook and she mentioned the Truth Network. And she through the Truth Network, I heard your name. And so I just started I looked you up and I started reading your stuff and listening to what you had to say.

Now, a few years ago, I would have been defensive just like that guy. I heard he was very angry and hateful towards you. I would have done the same thing. And I have done that. But I think God has changed me, had changed me to some point and made me open enough to want to listen to what you have to say.

I still was stubborn, but I was at a point where I just I was settling depression. I surrendered my sexuality in 2014 to God. And in my depression, I encountered someone who debated me with homosexuality. And, you know, they convinced me this is who I am. You know, God made me this way.

So I went back to it. And God didn't change me fully then.

So, um, basically when I read your stuff, It seemed like what you were saying could be true, but I didn't know if it was true. But I prayed to God and said, God, if this is the truth, Please lead me. And if you truly made me this way, then lead me to that point. And he kept leading me to your post and leading me, and he led me to your book. And I was like, you know, after I finish the book, I probably will surrender my sexuality to God.

And God said, no, you're going to do it today, right now. And so. That's what I did. And I think also um I've always been different when it comes to my thought process. Like when I grew up, it was lesbian, gay.

Bisexual transgender. It wasn't, you can identify as a dragon or zucchini or herb. Right, right. Things just got further, right. Yeah, it was not.

how I grew up. And so I challenged that And the more hate I got from gays, and the more they told me I could not be part of their community, like it was some kind of club and I wasn't truly bisexual, the more I kind of saw, you know, hey, maybe Dr. Michael Brown is telling the truth. And let me just jump in, we only have seconds. Has that sense of condemnation left you?

Do you believe God loves you now? Uh I feel trouble that I believe he loves me, but I'm just attacked by the devil all the time. All right, tell you what, stay right there. Stay right there. I want to get your address.

I want to send you a book on grace as a gift. We want to get you all the way through to accepting the love of God. My bottom line: be loved because God is love. Yeah.