God's Response to Race Riots, Union in Christ, and What It Really Means to Be a Disciple

Are there real gospel solutions for the problems in America today? Of course, there are. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Now, let me tell you what I believe is a big, big problem, and we keep missing it. We're looking to the government, we're looking to politicians, we're looking to elections to solve our moral, cultural, social problems, and that's not going to work. That's the bad news. The good news is there are gospel-based solutions. Gospel-based solutions for every problem in our society.

This is Michael Brown. You are listening to the line of fire. And whether we're looking at the breakdown in family, whether we're looking at drug or alcohol addiction, whether we're looking at indebtedness and obesity and a culture of indulgence, whether we're looking at Crime, whether we're looking at poverty, whatever we're looking at in society, whatever problem we're facing, whatever strikes us as the most urgent, there is a gospel-based solution. God's wisdom, God's Word has solutions for every problem in our society. And what we often do racial tensions, riots.

inequities, injustice. What we often do is we look to the government to fix what the church can only really fix. Are you tracking with me? There are plenty of things the government can do. and should do, And there are plenty of things the government can't do and shouldn't even try to do.

These things must be solved on a grassroots level, and they must be solved as God's people lead the way.

So as always, I want to give you hope and encouragement. I want to bring words of life where I differ with things that are happening with our government or where I differ with things happening in the church. I do so in a way that is constructive, not destructive. 866-34 TRUTH. If you want to weigh in, 866-348-7884.

I am finishing a book now that will come out about a year from now, God willing. On the fall and rise of America. That's not the title of it. I'm not going to share the title publicly quite yet. But I start with where we are today.

and then talk about where we've been in the past. And then talk about what must be done to see America strong, America built up, America healthy. And In every chapter, Whatever subject I'm dealing with, I go back to the scriptures and say, here's the answer. Here's the solution. Here's the answer.

Here's the solution. And some of it is so simple. The doing of it may be challenging, but the solution itself is so simple. And I have a chapter about the families where I emphasize the importance of having a multi-generational mindset. A mindset that's not just concerned about the world today, but what the world will look like tomorrow.

what the world will look like for our kids, for our grandkids. You say to me, Mike, don't you see the signs of the times? There's not going to be a world here for our grandkids. Ah. That's exactly part of the problem.

That we don't have a multi-generational mentality, and therefore we are not thinking about the long-term implications, the long-term effects, the long-term results of the decisions we make today, the actions that we take today.

So I want to talk to you a little bit about this. About larger solutions for the problems in our society today. And I want to focus again on Milwaukee. I want to talk about the racial tensions there. And I want to play a couple of clips for you that will open up some very healthy and productive discussion.

I'm curious, though, we had callers I was not able to get to yesterday that wanted to weigh in on Black Lives Matter. and I'm curious to know your own opinion. The movement as a whole, what it stands for, not the fact that Black Lives Matter, of course we all affirm that. But the movement, do you think it's more helpful or harmful? More constructive, more destructive?

866-348-7884. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

Man, that white person come down, sharing!

Okay, it's cool. Yeah, I'm not. He white! Be these fucking fire! Get out!

A lot of power in this mother, man! Who they just beat up, bro.

Now, see, this ain't in the club. I think they just beat for right for no reason. They bust the window and everything. Black bro, black bro, black bro, black bro, black bro, black bro, black bro. Black road, black road, black.

No! Yeah. Those are some of the disturbing clips from over the weekend with the riots in Milwaukee. Again, the painful irony of all this is that the young black man who was shot was shot by a black officer, and there is a black sheriff who is pointing a finger at the Liberal policies and the government creating the problems in the inner city. And when I hear the crowds chanting and when I hear the anti-white rhetoric, I feel like these people are pawns in somebody else's battle.

I feel that they themselves are, yes, responsible for their own actions as we all are, and yet I feel that they are victims as well. And and that they are being used by those that Enjoy or profit from or benefit from inciting racial tensions and racial hatred.

Now, This is the father. of the Young man who was shot. Again, lengthy criminal record. According to the police reports, the man was armed, and we will see at what point the video is released to see exactly what happened with the shooting. But.

But I want you to hear what this father has to say. It's very painful. To hear this, but I want you to Joey, grab clip number one. And again, this is a very typical situation that he's addressing. What's the gospel solution?

How do we address this? How do we fix this? Clip number one. They got us killing each other and they when they okay them pistols, they okay them uh a a a reason to kill us too.

Now, you know, somebody got killed reaching for his wallet. He wasn't no gun, but now they got a gun on him, so they can just say he reached and killed you, and that's justifiable. And that's where the problem began at. Then, when we allowed them to say, okay, guns is good as All right, that's that's part of what he had to say. You can hear the the pain in his voice.

But he also spoke of his own poor role model. how he's been in and out of jail. How this is this is what his his his son saw and grew up with.

Now, on the one hand, he paints a picture as if there is a they, a white they, that wants to kill blacks in the inner city. That's his perspective, or if he's speaking to the police, I I absolutely differ with that as being a large felt white sentiment or anything like that, or a sentiment of the police. He's concerned about the free access to guns and everybody having a gun and it's it's in people's wrong hands. Of course, the reality is that you have the most gun crime in cities with the strictest gun control. That's a subject for another day.

But What I want to point out is the issue of role model. That he's still trying, he's still trying to get his act together, and he's obviously hoping he's going to do better this next time around. But it's a painful cycle. And I don't know. I can't relate.

to what it's like to grow up in a broken home. I didn't. Nancy's mom was married four times. She can relate a whole lot more than I can, except she still grew up in the suburbs by and large and was not in an inner-city type setting. There was only a man there involved, although not serving really as the father that she needed at certain key times in her life.

But I can't relate at all to growing up. You hardly know who your father is. He's in and out of jail. Your siblings are from different parents. I I've said it many times, while we're all responsible for our actions, many people grow up in environments where there are two, three generations like this and in that sense, two, three strikes against them before they even get started in life.

Some kids having to help, you know, dealing drugs at the age of eight or 10. You've got a lot of baggage already. And the chance that you're going to end up in jail, that you're going to end up in trouble, regardless of your color or ethnicity, is much, much higher. We have to think in a way that is multi-generational. And where we have to start rebuilding is right in the home.

And with families. and recovering the importance of fatherhood and the meaning of motherhood, and breaking with governmental systems that encourage fatherlessness for income, breaking with governmental systems that say that someone owes you a free lunch. And working on dignity and self-respect and self-responsibility. As opposed to someone else has to come in and fix things. Yes, someone else may have come in and messed things up.

That's true. Government policies may be largely responsible for the mess. in so many of our inner cities in America today. But I don't believe that government policies are going to be the solution.

Now I want to play one other clip And then want to get a little bit more feedback from you. And this was Patrick Smith. We just listened to the soundbite from him. But let me read to the other part of what he said. Then I want to play one more clip.

Joey, grab clip number four. He said, I had to blame myself for a lot of things too, because your hero is your dad. and I played a very big part in my family's role model for them, being on the street, doing things on the street life, entertaining, drug dealing, and pimping. And they're looking at their dad like he's doing all these things. I just got out of jail two months ago, but I've been going back and forth in jail, and they see those things.

So I'd like to apologize to my kids because this is the role model they look up to. When they see the wrong role model, this is what you get. Yeah. That father is speaking truth there, and he's speaking it with pain. What did he grow up with?

I wonder what kind of role model he had. Perhaps it was also a bad role model.

So when dad is doing these things, When dad is in and out of jail. When dad, who's supposed to be the hero, the protector, when dad is setting a bad example. It's very difficult for kids to overcome that. It can be overcome.

Some of you say to me, I overcame it. Dr. Brown, I overcame it.

Well, God bless you. That's wonderful. But but bear in mind you're the exception to the rule. which is often following in the footsteps of the parents For better or for worse, listen to what Milwaukee County Sheriff David Clark told Fox business host Ashley Webster. What causes riots are failed liberal urban policies in these ghettos, like Milwaukee.

Milwaukee has inescapable poverty, where they're like the sixth poorest city in America. They have failing public schools, the K-12 public school system here. There's only two school systems that are worse, Cleveland and Detroit. You have massive black unemployment. I think the black unemployment rate in Milwaukee is 32%.

You have dysfunctional families. You have father-absent homes. You have questionable lifestyle choices. Those are the ingredients for a riot. And then a police shooting comes along and just acts as an igniter to an already volatile situation.

Now, look, between Friday night and Saturday, Four people were murdered in nine separate shootings and these same creeps, we didn't hear a peep from them, but all of a sudden a law enforcement officer fearing for his life reasonably is confronted by an armed individual and these people who exploit this thing, these cop hitters, want to come out and riot. This was just a situation of opportunity for people to steal, to loot, and to rabble routes. Yeah, I Can't agree more with what he said. What he pointed out about failed government policies, what he pointed out about people, cop haters and others, just using this for their advantage. And again, you have a black cop killing a black suspect.

And as the sheriff says, having seen the video on the body cam, He claims the man was reasonably concerned about his own life. One more thing, and then we'll go to your calls. Um the sister of Silville Smith, the young man who was killed. said that the police officer who shot her brother was no stranger. Uh sh uh she said the boy knew my brother personally from high school.

They knew each other. You knew exactly how my brother was and you shot. and killed him. Perhaps All the more then. Do you assume that the officer feared for his life?

if they've known each other for years, then you gotta have a good reason to pull the trigger. She says, If my brother did have his gun in his hand, why didn't he shoot back? If he's going to go out, why not go out with a fight? Want to go out with a big bang. I would say the answer is The officer's got his gun in his hand ready to shoot.

This man has the gun accessible The moment he goes for it, The officer shoots him, he's going to have the advantage. I would think. That's the answer. But what about what's being stirred up in the cities? What about Black Lives Matter as a movement.

not the truth of the affirmation, but as a movement. Positive or negative, 866-342. Your calls as soon as we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Believing in God makes no sense. To me, it's the dumbest thing. It's for people that can't accept the fact that they're going to die and rot in the ground like I'm going to do, and it gives them some relief. from from that thought because it's not the nicest thought in the world. Yeah, from the powerful new movie Atheist Delusion, Ray Comforts movie.

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Download it immediately at askdrbrown a.sk drbrown.org. And we decided to add something else in. It's a little crazy, but we decided to do it. The entire School of Cultural Engagement, we had this a few summers back at Fire School of Ministry. Six experts teaching for one week, so about 40 plus hours of teaching.

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So take advantage of that. That's at askdrbrown.org, A-Sk-D-R-Brown.org. All right, let's go to the phones starting on Long Island. Chris, welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, hi, Dr.

Brown. Um just a comment on the Black Lives Matter. The founders were uh I understand it two black lesbians. It's a largely feminist development. homosexual organization.

And um, you know, I've seen these two ladies featured on mostly um Black television station. And uh so, you know. That's pretty much the essence of of that movement. Um And As you can see, like a lot of people that are speaking. for black people are mostly young, uneducated black people.

A a lot of them are You know, if ascribe to the hip hop kind of lifestyle. And um so that's pretty much where the Black Lives Matter movement i is is coming from. It's it's m mostly immoral and it's and and and a lot of it is is uh is criminal. And Chris, do you feel that there are National spokesman or spokeswoman for the African American community. That are people of integrity, people worthy of respect.

That really have a good voice on these issues. Obviously, we don't have a Martin Luther King in this generation. Not really, Dr. Brown. I mean, I'll tell you, I'm a black person.

I'm in my early 30s and I I actually don't feel good about the plight of black people right now. I feel like black people are pretty much like a lost a lost people right now. There's there's no leadership that I can uh speak of. you know, and I just wanted to say this. I I it just for some historical context, I'm not an expert, but I feel like after nineteen seventy, like after doct um doctor King was assassinated, black people pretty much chose the wrong future.

You know, it was Protestant Christianity that liberated blacks from slavery And that liberated blacks from the Jim Crow laws with Martin Luther King. And after 1970, blacks. pretty much fell into a a moral uh issue. they became largely immoral. They they they fell into uh feminism and and homosexuality and uh nation of Islam nonsense like Muhammad Ali and everything.

And um you know, that's where black people lost their way pretty much. And, you know, it was right around the time, 1970. Like I said, I'm not an expert, but. I see that's when the the white society as a whole started to fall apart with the liberalism. And blacks They couldn't afford So join with the liberal whites to do what they did, and that's exactly what they did, and which is why the black community also thirty, forty years later, is in the state that it's in now.

blacks just couldn't simply afford to be liberal. They should have kept with the Christian ethics that Martin Luther King espoused, and that was what was to to lift the race up. And now they've they've chosen the wrong feature and now you see this chaos that you're seeing. Yeah, and and yeah, and Chris, and some some would suggest Someone suggests that one of the big issues was policies that were implemented beginning with the Johnson administration that may have been well-intended, ended up just creating a whole generation or several generations of people who were dependent on the government. And people who had walked with dignity and self-respect, people who had overcome many obstacles, now became victims of a system again.

Now, some think it's more nefarious, some think that there was a real effort to keep blacks down intentionally by the white government. Others say the policies were well-intended but had a negative impact. But either way, it's been a narrative that's been a history that's grieved me and concerned me for years now. That I keep looking at and saying, okay, how do we reverse this? How do we fix this?

And it's something we do together as brothers and sisters in the Lord and his fellow Americans. Hey, Chris, thanks for weighing in. We'll go to Somerset, New Jersey. Jarrell, thank you for calling the line of fire. How are you doing, Dr.

Moran? Very well, thank you, sir. All right. Um I was just I did miss the full context of the conversation, but I tuned in. to hear the gentleman.

before me speaking on the the founders of the Black Lives Matter website. Um There is a distinction between the website And the movement. The website was. trademark affounded by those To lesbian women.

However, the movement. and the T shirts and everything that you see That represents Black Lives Matter is not the same as the website. The Black Lives Matter movement. Started as a response Two police brutality and African Americans who felt that they were being mistreated by police and by white people in general. Um the lesbian couple started the website.

for notoriety and profit, which isn't the same as the Black Lives Matter movement. And um Also, it hurts me. Yes, I say it again. No, no, go ahead. You keep going.

Okay. It also hurts me to to hear the our brother before to say that um black people are a lost people. We're not a lost people. We're not a hopeless people. I I I don't appreciate that, um, especially coming from me.

Another African American gentleman. Oh, that's Saddening to hear him say such a thing. I just think that. We lack role models, as you said earlier. Um So, Jarrell, let me ask you this, and we're coming up to a break, but I want you to stay on if you can, all right?

I The the lost issue, in many ways, America's lost. You know what I'm saying? America's lost to Wayne is confused. And I think he was talking about just there's not making a judgment on the people, but saying that his His own people are in a very difficult situation now. And I think we agree with that.

The question is: how do we fix that? And then, when you haven't had a good role model to look at, How do you recover that? Because these are the big issues. And then, how can we work together in a positive way?

Now, the one thing, and then stay right there, all right, because I want to continue this conversation about Black Lives Matter. Yeah, there's a grassroots movement. There is the larger Um mentality that people have joined in with in support of. My concern is not that issues are being raised where there is injustice or is inequity, let those issues be raised. My concern is when you get people into an angry, violent, retaliatory mood, and you continue to get them in a mentality of dependence on the government.

The government's gotta fix this. That's more unhelpful than helpful.

So it's the extreme rhetoric that concerns me. But once again, together, we will find a way for strength, for healing, for restoration. for all Americans. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

We are going to continue constructive discussion about some of the problems we're facing in society. All of America is facing problems. Each part of America has different issues, different problems, from the richest suburbs to the poorest inner cities. And these are things we need to address humbly with open hearts before the Lord. I will be switching topics shortly because I have a guest coming on to talk about an important new book.

But we're going to continue this discussion again, God willing tomorrow, unless something major breaks or changes in the news. Jarrell, I was just speaking with before the break, raised the very important issue of role models. It's something I alluded to earlier in the show. And it's the big, big biblical approach, which is follow the example of godly elders, follow the example of godly mothers and fathers, and reproduce this through the generations. It's the great challenge as to how to do this.

So, Jarrell, in a setting where someone grew up without a proper role model, they didn't see what it meant to be a husband or a father, to just focus on males for a minute. How do we now set good role models? Does it have to come through mentoring programs, through the church? What's your thought on that? Uh well I I don't think that the burden should suffering or or victims of lack of role models.

Just like God didn't Oh. We lost you there, man. All right. If you can call back, do it, and we'll reconnect you.

Somehow we lost you there. All right, let's go to Camilla and Charlotte. Thanks for calling the line of fire. Hi, Harry. Doing well, thank you.

Good. Um again, I'm on my way to work right now and I'm actually just Happened to run across your station. I was listening to what the gentleman was saying. I think his name was Chris. Yeah.

black people kind of being a lost cause. And He kind of went into detail more about who's running the Black Lives campaign. I myself am a young African American woman, just graduated from college. I'm doing everything I can to make sure I stay above water.

However, but his comment as far as African Americans being a lost cause and how he's ashamed, Um, that's neither here nor there. The more reason of why Black Lives Matter is more of a campaign now than any other time. is because it's being televised of police brutality in African American males and women. Um There's a whole history behind How we have been, of course. Undermined by a lot of different races, and now it's coming to the point where people who look down at us.

more because we're trying to set up as a of people together. And for him he was kind of like that the image of someone looking down upon black people and being that black person kind of hurts. to hear you say that we're kind of a lost cause. Yeah, well, he said a lost, yeah, a lost people, not a lost cause. Let me ask you this, Camila.

Um j just to to clarify this one point um If If Whatever the issues are with police brutality, let them be exposed. Wherever they exist, let them be exposed for sure. Or unfair court sentences, let them be exposed for sure. To more attention that can come to it. But who's why is it that the family is so broken down in the inner city?

Is it because of welfare policies, government policies that make people dependent? Is there some other factor? What's your opinion? Um again, it always depends on where the people Well R Again, like I said, it can be a factor of the inner cities. I myself was raised in Long Island, New York, before I moved to Charlotte.

So Me, I was raised in a family where I had a father who was a military, who was a staff sergeant, I had a mother who was a teacher. I had a community that was around me caring and loving enough to upbring me and keep me up. For some families, especially African American, it's unfortunate that we can't have that because there are cases where a mom is not around because she's working three jobs to make sure she has a roof over her kids. and food on their table, so you don't necessarily have that moral support. And then nine tens out of ten or How's this?

of the time you don't have that male figure in your home either.

So it's more so they're dependent on the streets, but that's That's something that has to do with how you grow up and the community that you're with. Yeah, and sorry, if you hear the music, that means we're out of time. Maybe you can call back another day, mark this station here because we're often talking about these issues and we interact to be constructive.

So we're going to keep talking about the issues. They're here. We can't avoid it. Thank you for the call. Gotta run.

Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Yeah, I know, I know, a lot of conversations to continue. We had a few folks on the phone we wanted to get back to, and I would have loved to continue to talk to Camila. But we've got to switch gears, and it's going to be a very important switch as we talk about the most fundamental of all fundamentals. We've been saying that there are gospel-based solutions for every problem in society.

So whether we're looking at the breakdown of the family, whether we're looking at racial tensions, whether we're looking at injustice, whether we're looking at economic deprivation, whatever it is, there are gospel-based biblical solutions. A lot of these go back to the family. A lot of these go back to the role of mothers and fathers and role models and things like that. But more fundamentally. Everything flows out of relationship with the Lord.

our health, our strength as a nation. Will be determined directly by the health and strength of the church. And that will be determined directly by the health and strength of our relationship with. The Lord.

So, this is all relevant. Let's just look at this as the roots. Beneath the tree, that which is often unseen, but that which sustains the health of the tree and enables it to bear fruit. Dave Hickman is a friend. He is the founder of Charlotte One, a network of more than 50 churches in Charlotte, North Carolina, all empowering one another to engage local 20 to 30 somethings, which then work together to reach the city's young adult population.

I've had the pleasure of speaking a number of times in years past for Charlotte One, and Dave has written a book now. Closer than close. Awakening to the freedom of your union with Christ. Dave, welcome to the line of fire. Great to have you on.

Oh, Dr. Brown, it's a joy to be with you. It's good to hear your voice. Yeah, Dave, this is a great title. Closer Than Close, Awakening to the Freedom of Your Union with Christ.

Tell me about the title. What does it mean?

Well, as a child growing up, I came to faith in the Lord very early. Eight, nine years old. And I used to always say in middle school and high school, growing up, the youth group: I wanted to be as close to Jesus as possible. And um And I would always say to my mom and my father, you know, I wanted to be closer than close to Jesus. And so that title has been my heart's cry for most of my life.

Um and uh And in order to pursue that, that closeness, I was told that I needed To do certain things, read the Bible, pray, and all these are wonderful. But before long, It felt as if the the very thing I wanted became very elusive and it was tied to my performance.

So To be close to Jesus meant I did certain things. To be far from him meant I didn't do those things. And so the book. uh talks about the day that I discovered The type of relationship that God longed to have with me and longs to have with me, and that's a union. not necessarily close, but closer than close.

He wanted to be one with me. All right, so this sounds to some, it could be mystical. I remember hearing so, and I know you're practical, so that's why I'm saying that. I remember. when I was in college in New York City, I remember hearing a guy on the radio saying, When I get up in the morning, it's not me, it's Jesus living in me.

When I do this, it's not me, it's Jesus living in me. And I remember saying, That's nice. But when I wake up in the morning, I'm kind of tired, and yeah, you know, how, and when I'm tempted, you know, I have to resist.

So, how do I make this transition?

So, your goal, of course, is to be practical. Obviously, theology is ultimately practical when applied, but talk to me about this oneness with Christ. What does it mean?

How do I experience it? How do I live it out? Yes, yes.

Well uh And again, I just think it's it's a more I think the language of union is much more in line with the New Testament and what Jesus longs to have with us, this union and oneness. We look at the farewell discourse in John thirteen through sixteen. His high priestly prayer in John 17, he prayed that we be one as he and the Father are one. And so, this oneness with Christ, or what the this doctrine of union with Christ as it's known in the church. It's simply the joining.

It it's the mysterious yet real joining. Of believers to the very person, flesh and blood person of Jesus. Oftentimes, we talk about union with Christ in a very mystical sense, that it's just this spiritual union. But in fact, as you know, Dr. Brown, the The early patristic fathers and the church fathers and the reformers, all alike, from Calvin to To John Murray, to others, believe that salvation wasn't something.

we get, it's someone we enter into. namely, the person of Jesus. And so That union comes from when we you know, receive the person and the work, and not just the work, but the person of the Holy Spirit. who unites us, according to Calvin, uh To things separated by distance, is what he would say. And so even though there is one incarnation, That person is Jesus the Christ.

He is risen. He is somewhere. Salvation does not exist outside of Him as a something he gives to us from afar. salvation is himself, his own person, in his flesh and blood person. And so the spirit is what unites us really and truly According to Calvin, to the person of Jesus.

And so that's what. That's how I would describe it. It's not just a physical or spiritual union, it's a physical one as well. And that's why Paul links it to. this one flesh union between the husband and the wife.

Um How that plays out in our own everyday life, it makes him. It's comforting and it's frightening. It's comforting because I can wake up in the morning And I can know that I can't get any closer to Jesus than I am right now. oftentimes this language of proximity Can put us on this treadmill that leads us to legalism, moralism, or something worse. But I'm waking up having already arrived.

Now that doesn't mean I can do whatever I want. and not, you know. Not still pursue that. I didn't marry my wife so I could stop loving her. I'm not joined to Christ, so I can stop.

Pursuing him and loving him and growing in the intimacy and the awareness of that.

So the practicality of it, doctor Brown, Is is this is moving from striving to abiding. In our everyday lives. All right. So let's, yeah, let me just unpack that for a minute because as I'm listening, I'm thinking of all the scriptures that talk about in him being in Jesus and so on, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and are standing with him. We're seated in heavenly places with the Messiah.

And then I'm thinking of verses like John 15: if you remain in me, so King James abide in me and my words abide in you. Ask what you will, and it'll be done for you. And the importance of meeting with God in prayer and just knowing in my own life, as I'm in the Word, meditating on the Word more, in fellowship with God and prayer more, that I am more conscious of my union with Him, more in that sense, feeling nearer to Him.

So I don't know if it's semantics or what.

So unpack it, some of these distinctions here. Yes, no, no.

Well, um i it's your awareness of it. This is not a proximity game. Um to talk about it this way, when I got married in two thousand and two, My wife and I became one, not 99.9% united. We became perfectly united. in this one flesh covenant of marriage.

Now Fourteen years later, that union is still the very same union. What's different about it, if we could say different at all, is my awareness and appreciation and enjoyment of what's always been true of me and my wife as one.

So what the language of union historically in the church and in our church history, has has enabled us to say with full assurance that that yes, we are united to Christ. There is no getting closer to him. But there is this growing awareness or awakening, as you say, of the union we already have with him. and growing in the enjoyment and appreciation of that, as opposed to this Sometimes I know in the in evangelical and charismatic circles, we can present A relationship with Jesus as this mad dash to catch him. He's out there somewhere, you know?

And We gotta try to press into his heart or chase hard after him. We It paints Jesus as this person who's Out there somewhere, and my job is to get closer to him through doing things. And that's never been, and that's not the message of the gospel. As you pointed, Paul uses the phrase in Christ 164 times in his 13 letters. one hundred and sixty four times to talk about the actual place.

Where salvation is found. The actual place or justification. is found. the actual place where sanctification is found. Or, in the words of Carl Raynor, the gifts of Christ cannot be separated from the person.

of Christ. But growing up in the church, I always thought that these were things that he kind of gave to me in this hell Mary of a throw from eternity. that when I would pray a certain prayer, He would he would Give me gifts. of salvation that we're somehow separated from his actual person and that made me very um Cause you I'm speaking with Dave Hickman, his new book, Closer Than Close, Awakening to the Freedom. Of your union with Christ.

Got a few more questions for Dave. This is very important stuff. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Dave Hickman, a friend and colleague in the greater Charlotte, North Carolina area. He's got a new book out. I was looking at some of the reviews on Amazon, and people are really loving this book, Closer Than Close: Awakening to the Freedom of Your Union with Christ. It is hot off the press. Dave, since you're not talking about freedom to sin, you're not talking about freedom from responsibility, freedom from discipline, what is the freedom?

that you want people to awaken to and that they will awaken to through these gospel truths. the freedom of what it means to abide, the freedom of what it means to rest, the freedom of what it means when you do yoke yourself to Christ, who's who who whose yoke is easy and his burden is light. That doesn't mean, as you say, a license to sin. It doesn't mean the freedom to do nothing and not continue to. To love and be loved of Christ, but it does change and it frees us from our wrong motivation.

If I could say it very plainly.

Well, the wrong motivation can be performance things. Um that if I do certain things I can be accepted of God. If I do certain things, God will like me more. If I don't do certain things, um It will draw me closer to Jesus. in in in proximity And that it can it frees us from the I mean, really, the bondage of legalism, of having the wrong internal motivation for why we do what we do.

So would it be like someone who is married? You said the moment you and your wife were married, you became one, and you're still one the exact same way 14 years later.

So let's say a husband is neglecting his wife, he's not paying attention to her, he's become insensitive to her needs. They're still one. They're still one in marriage. That's true. That there's something missing in the fellowship or the experience of that oneness.

So is this a rough parallel of what happens with us in the Lord? Oh, it's the number one parallel, as you know, that Paul makes to describe Christ in the church. And he calls it not just a mystery. He talked about it sounds very mystical. Paul calls it a profound mystery.

So he would say it's profoundly mythical. But yes, you're right. The husband would be missing out. on the beauty and the wonder of what's the most true thing about him. which is he is one cre one new creation with his life.

And so that would be the tragedy of all tragedy. for a husband to fall in love su in such a way to his wife. that they be that he that they become one flesh. and then use that as an opportunity to to be self-indulgent. And neglectful of his own body.

This is Paul in Ephesians 5 talking about husbands and wife. But again, he he he likens that, Dr. Brown, as you as I as you know. He says this pertains to Christ in the church.

So oftentimes when you were When we hear the word freedom, And phrases like you can't get any closer to cheapness. I think our minds automatically run to It's kind of this this Freedom of this freedom to sin or this freedom to not have any responsibility. But I think that's a false I don't think I don't think that's fair because you didn't marry your wife, So you could take the next. I mean, how long have you been married again? Sixty years?

Forty one years. I mean, you you didn't ask your wife to marry you forty one years ago so you could take the next forty one years off. Right, right. Actually, just the opposite. You you you wanted to not just be two, you wanted to be one with her so that you could truly get to know her.

And so, again, just bringing this home to your listeners. Um, it's not wrong as we say, it's not incorrect to say we have a relationship with Jesus. Um it's just incomplete. And this is what I argue in the book. We're never told what type of relationship we are to have with Jesus.

We're s and and to define it, m for me growing up in the church. Um I was given very relative phrases like close. You need to be close to him.

Well, what's close?

Well, it needs to be intimate or personal.

Well, can you tell me more of what that means? And what this language of union does as it pertains to the scriptures and our Christian tradition, is it says, here is the type of relationship you have. You have a union. You have a oneness with not just the second person of the Trinity, but you have a union with the Father and the Spirit. And so what I've been trying to do in my own language Yeah.

Is speak more clearly as to the type of relationship I have.

So instead of just talking about a relationship, I do talk about. The union I have with Christ because it helps to define. and give clarity to the type of relationship.

So it's troubling. Yeah, I wake up in the morning. I'm groggy. I didn't have enough sleep last night. I look at my emails, and there's some bad news and some problems I have to deal with, and I don't really feel close to the Lord.

Those feelings are basically irrelevant in terms of reality. The reality is I'm one with Jesus. The reality is I immediately have access to the holy place with the Father. And that I start there by faith, so that the feelings are really quite secondary, whereas for most of us, the feelings drive our conception of our relationship with God. Yeah, there's days that I don't feel very married.

But it doesn't mean that I'm not.

Now, our feelings, as you know, and as you say, as you clearly say on your program, our feelings do matter. And so I don't want to make them necessarily secondary. But they don't define spiritual reality. But they do not define who we are, and nor should we, and nor should we want them to. Um, you know, uh the pain in the same scenario.

I wake up in the morning. I'm troubled from something maybe I've said to a friend the day before, or you know, a certain sin that I'm, you know, that is before me, or an email that I am trying to figure out how to respond to or the pressures of the day. I can stop and before I do anything, I can say Father? Thank you that you have brought me.

So close to yourself that you have made me one with you in Christ. You have joined me and united me to your Son, Jesus, the one true Son. And now I am adopted a view I'm fully accepted. I'm fully loved. And so Father, I just acknowledge that to you this morning.

That This isn't a treadmill I'm going to be on today to try to earn your love. or try to earn some close proximity to you. From this moment forward, give me the faith to believe. That you're just not with me, you're in me. And that I'm in you.

and lay my posture today. be one of abiding and not striving to earn your love. May it be one of joyful obedience. Um not one of Scared rebellion. And, you know, and so these are the type prayers that You know, I ask people all the time, how would you change it?

Yeah, I'm going to jump in and I'm going to present that question because we're out of time. You've got a whole bunch of people thinking, Dave. In fact, you stir my own heart as you speak. Friends, this is why you need to get the book. How would your life be changed as you get this book?

Closer Than Close, Awakening to the Freedom of Your Union with Christ. Hey, Dave, thanks for joining us. Again, the book, Closer Than Close by Dave Hickman. My bottom line today, oh. the amazing truth that we are united with Jesus in his death and resurrection.

So what does it really mean to follow Jesus? It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth.

That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Oh, we are going to make things very, very simple and clear today.

Some of the greatest problems that we face in our nation. Are directly related to the message that comes from the pulpits of our churches. The message that comes from Christian TV and Christian radio and Christian books and Christian messages through the internet. A watered-down message that does not speak the truth about God or speak the truth about scripture or speak the truth about what it means to be a follower of Jesus. A motivational pep talk, bypass the cross gospel.

that in many ways does more harm than good. And because of that, we are experiencing many of the problems we're experiencing in America today. In short, As I've said scores of times. America is messed up because the Church of America is messed up. The Church of America is messed up.

because the leaders are messed up.

Now, there are many godly leaders and fine leaders. And there are many hundreds of thousands, millions of godly Christians in America. But unfortunately, we have preached this watered-down message. It has had a terrible effect on the society. It has taken away a lot of the fear of God, the reverential honor of God, the consciousness of God, the consciousness that we will all stand before a great judge one day.

And because of that, it has really softened the moral backbone of much of the church. And when I was in Korea talking to major leaders there, government leaders and Christian leaders. One nationally respected Christian leader said, listen.

Some of the leading pastors that we have, or pastors of very large churches, went over to America and they studied in the Ivy League schools. They studied in the very best schools and they studied in the famous Ivy League seminaries, which had mainly liberal professors. Because of which they came back with a somewhat liberal theology and they do not confront sin. In America, it's not for the same reason, but many churches have grown greatly in terms of numbers. I would say not depth, but numbers, because of this.

Superficial, self-help, motivational, feel-good, prosperity, gospel. And when you have this happening in the church, whereas we are supposed to be the moral conscience of society, whereas we are supposed to be the moral compass of the society, whether society loves us or hates us, that's a key role that we play. It is part of us being lights in dark places, that we demonstrate God's ways by how we live, and we demonstrate God's ways by what we speak and how we address things.

Well, Obviously. If we're failing to do that, then America is going to be in even worse condition. In a different context in Matthew 6, Jesus says, if the light within you is darkness, how great is the darkness?

So I saw an article the other day on a Christian website about five Olympic athletes who love the Lord. It changed subsequently to five Olympic Christian athletes, something like that, or Christian Olympic athletes. But when I first read it, I said, Oh, cool, I wonder who these athletes are. The first one was Catholic. And the only thing it mentioned about her spirituality was leaning on her faith before a big event, going and lighting a candle to St.

Sebastian. And then I read on. A couple of others seem to have testimonies that at least told you more about them. And then the last one, famous basketball player, he talked about after he was baptized where everything changed. And he used to think he had to live by the Ten Commandments, but now we don't do that anymore.

We live by the blood of Jesus. And I thought, I wonder what that means. I wonder what that means. We don't live by that anymore. We live by the blood of Jesus.

Does that mean that holiness is optional? Does that mean discipleship is optional? We'll talk about what it really means to follow Jesus when we come back. That's the key. That's the key.

For America. Mm-hmm. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Today at five minutes to 11, my doorbell rang. It was my trainer. Scott Neri. coming over to take me through a one-hour workout. He always arrives a few minutes early.

And when the tribell rings, it's a funny thing. And I told them, I always have that mixed emotion. I love doing the workout, but I know it's going to hurt. I know there's something to it, and I'll get through it, and I'll be glad I got through it, but there's going to be a price to pay in getting through it. He's a great trainer.

He's also a great evangelist and soul winner, even more than being a great trainer.

Well Following Jesus, being a disciple, It's wonderful, it's glorious, it's incredible, but but there's something That's very deeply, deeply serious about it. That causes you to stop and think. And that Jesus told people to stop and think. and consider the cost. And then make their commitment and make a real commitment because he said, no one, I mean, put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

866. 348-7884 is the number to call. Do you see people being quote led to Jesus in a way where they really don't come? to understand repentance or lordship, where they think it's just a matter of ask Jesus to receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life and then have a better life here in this world too, and that's the extent of it. And friends, that is not in any way, shape, size, or form the fullness of the gospel message.

In fact, it's missing essential parts.

So here's what got me on this topic. The article that I read about five young Christian Olympic athletes. Quoted from GQ magazine 2015.

So I went to the link. And it's talking about basketball superstar Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant, and about his personal spiritual transformation after learning about God's love from Pastor Carl Lenz at Hill Song, New York City. And he explained that he once lived with the fear that, quote, if I do something wrong, I'm going to hell. I felt like I had to follow the Ten Commandments.

Buddy continues. We don't live by that no more. We live by the blood of Jesus. That's how I feel.

Now Here's what I hope. Here's what I hope. I don't know how much he said, I don't know how much they quote it.

So here's what I hope. I hope what he meant was this. And I've got an article on this. If we love Jesus, we will keep his commandments. You can read it by going to ask Dr.

Brown, A-S-K-D-R-Brown.org. You'll just see it as the latest article. Here's what I hope he meant. I hope he meant I used to live in constant fear of of an angry, vengeful God who was watching my every move. He was out to get me if if I broke a single commandment a single time, and the penalty of hell was hanging over me all the time.

Now I realize that Jesus died for my sins, gave me a new heart, so I serve God out of love, not terror. That's what I hope. He meant. All right. I hope that he loves the Lord.

I hope he's walking with the Lord. I hope that Jesus really has changed him and that he's a true convert. and a true disciple. I don't know anything about his life. To make a further judgment.

Anything would be very superficial, and that's not my goal. I hope he's walking with the Lord. I hope he loves the Lord. I hope the context of that quote. It was better than what the quote itself sounds like.

Because the quote itself sounds like you're exempt from moral responsibility because of the blood of Jesus. I truly hope he didn't mean that. I truly hope that's not what he believes. I truly hope he is a genuine disciple. All right.

But Many Christians today What they think is because Jesus died for me, there's nothing left for me to do since God forgives me, no matter what. Hey, I live by the blood of Jesus. What does that mean? I get a free pass. Hey, I live by the blood of Jesus.

What does that mean? Carte blanche. Cart launch. That I'm good no matter what. Because it's by the blood of Jesus.

It would be like you get pulled over for a speeding ticket and you show the officer this card and and the card is from the police association. You're recognized through the nation that you are exempt from traffic tickets. And if there's any charge, just just put in this code and you're free to go. Cool, huh?

Well, some of us think that's how it is spiritually.

Now look. I understand that there are people who lived under a burden and weight of the law that was impossible to bear. And my guest in the last half hour before this, Dave Hickman, in his book Closer Than Close, talks about how he had a legalistic mentality that he had to get closer, he had to get closer, he had to get closer instead of recognizing he was united with Jesus and out of that to abide in him and enjoy fellowship with him.

So, somebody had a wrong conception of God. He's watching you. Why? Because he wants to smash you. He's watching you because he enjoys punishing you.

He's watching you because he's looking for an excuse to send you to hell or to damn you to bring some calamity on you. Of course, that's absolutely not the God that we serve. That's not who he is. His desire is to bless, not curse. He will bring judgment, he does bring punishment for sin on those who refuse to repent, and he does it justly and rightly.

And what he does is good, and we acknowledge his goodness. But his desire towards us is not to curse, it's to bless. His desire towards us is not to destroy, it's to build up, just as his desire to Israel was to bless and not to curse. It even says in the scriptures that he's not willing that any should perish, that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather they repent. He wants everybody to repent and turn to him.

But there are some people who have this notion God's out to get me. God's up one wrong move, and I'm a go one wrong move and I go down fast. He's going to crush me, he's going to kill me. I didn't pray enough, I wasn't holy enough, I wasn't compassionate enough, I didn't witness enough. You live under that constant terror.

Well, that's not the gospel. That is absolutely not the gospel. On the flip side though, On the flip side, Many have not heard the whole message. which is that God reaches out to us in His infinite love. saves us from sin we cannot save ourselves.

We cannot liberate ourselves. we can never be good enough to be accepted or embraced by God. Ever Ever ever. in our own selves, we will always fall short. It's like you're in a thousand foot pit.

It's fifty feet wide and it has smooth walls And you have to try to jump your way out. In a thousand lifetimes, you could never do it. You'd never get out of that pit.

Well, that's us with sin, except the pit's a billion feet deep, or infinitely deep, if you want to put it like that.

So Jesus washes us, cleanses us, dies for us. Receives us as his own, gives us eternal life, brings us into the Father's family. In a moment of time, we go from death to life, from darkness to light, from the kingdom of Satan to the kingdom of God, from guilty to righteous, from sinful to set apart as holy. In a moment of time, in a moment of time.

now as his people. Truly saved, we are required, yes, required to live for Him. He is now our Lord. Here. Can you picture being hired at a job?

When you ask the boss, how do you refer to him? He says, I just like to be referred to as boss. Just refer to me as boss.

So You say, yes, boss. And then he says, all right. Here's your job. You need to be in here at eight in the morning, and you start here. It's like, who are you telling me what to do?

Oh, excuse me. This is your job. I'm the boss.

Now, we didn't get hired to do a job. We became members of God's family, sons and daughters of God. And Jesus is now our Lord. We now live to do his will. That's what salvation means.

We were saved from sin, from doing our own thing, from living for ourselves. He didn't just save us from our sins, He changed us. He purchased us. 1 Corinthians 6, you are not your own. You are bought with a price.

Therefore, glorify God in your body. Yeah, we belong to him. He's the Lord.

So listen to what Jesus says. I'm reading from John 14 and John 15. Are you ready? Jesus says, If you love me, You will keep my commandments. There's some translated as, If you love me, keep my commandments, imperative.

Some translate it with: if you love me, you will keep my commandments. Either way, what's clear is that his People who love him. or expected to, And will keep his commandments. How about this? Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is.

Who loves me? And If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in His love. Isn't that amazing? We think of love as no commandments, no requirements. No, no, true love.

true love of Jesus is demonstrated in keeping his commandments. You say, well, what are his commandments? Read the Gospels. Read the Gospels and see what He says. Those are His commandments.

Read through John's Gospel and see what he says. Those are his commandments and if we truly love him We will demonstrate it by keeping those commandments. And 1 John goes even further and says: if we claim to know him and don't keep his commandments, We're lying. Strong words, no? Around the new sign, shake the news, change the world, change the world we want, for fire we please stand the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Truth is in the pudding. If we are really followers of Jesus, it will be demonstrated in a changed life. 866-34-TRUTH. I was speaking to some colleagues working in Charlotte, North Carolina. They were talking to me about a meeting they were at with the school board.

And the school board reflected rhetoric, language that was used in an earlier meeting with city council. And they're espousing this God, allegedly the God of the scriptures, who does not exist. This God who does not share the moral standards of the scriptures, this God who does not share God's standards for holiness, God's standards for marriage and family, instead, this all-accepting God who is accepting of all without transformation, who is accepting of all except for those who hold to biblical values. And he was saying, man, my friend was saying this this faulty gospel message is is just everywhere in the society. And it creates a platform for all of these destructive school policies and governmental policies, in particular with LGBT activism.

because it's not the true gospel. Uh Mickey Cone. Mickey Cohn was a notorious gangster. Late 1950s, he attended a Billy Graham meeting in Beverly Hills. Revival historian James Edwin Orr tells a story.

Again, you can read this in my latest article: If We Love Jesus, We'll Keep His Commandments. That's at askdr. Brown, ASKDRBrown.org. If you haven't been there in a couple days, I've got a few articles up. My response to a rabbi is God Transgender, a New York Times article.

And then a great story about a Russian Israeli. Who was going to be on the Olympic team in Munich? ended up pulling out last minute because of this financial dispute. And tragically, that whole team was killed. As you know, the massacre of the Israeli athletes, he would have been dead.

He thought God must have spared his life for a reason. I shared the story of how I was able to help lead him to the Lord. That's on a recent video.

So it's all at the website, askdrbrown.org.

So. Mickey Cohn. Attended a Billy Graham meeting. He expressed some interest in the message, but according to James Edwinor, made no commitment. until sometime later when another friend urged him, using Revelation 3.20 as a warrant, to invite Jesus Christ into his life.

This he professed to do, But his life subsequently gave no evidence of repentance, which Archbishop Trench defined as that mighty change of mind, heart, and life. Cohn rebuked his friend, saying to him, You did not tell me that I would have to give up my work? We need his rackets. You did not tell me that I would have to give up my friends meaning his gangster associates. You see.

Mickey Cohen had heard that so-and-so was a Christian football player, and so-and-so a Christian cowboy, and so-and-so a Christian actress.

So-and-so Christian senator. and he really thought that he could be a Christian gangster. Alas Orras says, there is not evidence of repentance. Many have sadly forgotten that the only evidence of the new birth is the new life. The real problem is that some evangelists, like some converts, have failed to realize that the fault lies in the defective message.

So today, what do we do? We offer a motivational, pep talk, feel-good, self-help, personal empowerment Jesus rather than the Jesus of the scriptures. And in doing so, we damn our hearers rather than. Deliver them.

So this does not mean That we're saved by the merit of our good works, instead, it means that those who are truly saved, Those who truly know the Lord, those who are true Christians, are transformed by God. and no longer live the way they used to live. It was written in 1 John Chapter 5. By this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey His commandments, for this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome. And by this we know, 1 John 2, that we have come to know him if we keep his commandments.

Whoever says, I know him, but does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. In other words, those who are saved are saved. If they're not saved, they're not saved. How about that for being profound? All right, let's go to the phones.

Richmond, Virginia. Will, welcome to the line of fire. Hello, Dr. Brown. Hope you're doing well.

Yes, sir. Just wanted to add to that. It's a very interesting topic, which is I've thought about quite a bit. Um I actually got to a detention center and preach the gospel about three or four times a month to juveniles there. And what I've come to notice in my Christian life is that many people who do that type of work Uh, they preach a gospel that is truncated, they only preach faith in Christ, but they leave out repentance.

Yeah, I think a lot of times because they want to see results. And only God can bring a person to repentance and faith, but we're required to preach the whole message. You look at Zacchaeus. And the key is the example is a tax collector. after Christ came to the house and dined with him, or obviously talked with him.

Zacchaeus and evidence of his salvation was not only faith in Christ, But he immediately repented. He said, If I've done, if I've taken from any man more than I ought, I'll return it to him. And I think he said four or seven fold. And you look at the prodigal son, When he returned to his father's house after a life of rebellion, He left the Riotus Living. He didn't come back with a bottle of booze in one hand.

and a a promiscuous woman in the other arm. I mean, he left it all and he came back to his father, which was a type of God in that parable. And I think a big problem with a lot of preaching today is the fact that men are afraid to preach repentance because they don't believe people are going to come to Christ. But they don't realize if you don't repent, you can't come to Christ. Because coming to Christ is coming back to God is dropping your arms of rebellion against God's law and waving the surrender flag.

and receive his free mercy to forgive all of your sins and receive you unto himself. by faith in what Christ has done. And that's where the new life starts. It starts in turning from sin and laying hold of Christ by faith.

So when people think they've come to Christ, But they haven't. turned away from this world's philosophy and from their own sin and running their own lives. They have not repented. They have a a pair of feet and a They have a a faith that is not saving faith, and that's how we don't see transformed lives because you're still in a state of sin in most cases, I believe. Yeah, Will, you have articulated things beautifully.

Obviously, you've given this thought because you've countered the idea that this is somehow salvation by works or human effort, rather, salvation. Really saves. It really changes us. It's like God saying, okay, You are in prison. and you are going to spend the rest of your life in prison.

But I am going to freely let you out and give you a new heart so that you'll live a new life. That's the package. That's the package. It's not get out of jail so you can go back to committing the same crimes and living the same lifestyle.

So, you're absolutely right. It's a defective message that we've preached. Whatever our motivation is. Be it that we're afraid to tell people the truth because it would seem too strong. Be it we're not relying on the Holy Spirit to bring about change.

We do our hearers a terrible disservice. And that's why we may have some of our church buildings filled with people. But have very few real disciples. And if shaking and testing came, you find out that many are just there, so to say, for the fishes and the lowest. Hey, Will, articulate and clear.

Thank you. May the Lord help us to preach his whole gospel. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us today on the line of fire. Let me give you a 90-minute recap in a few seconds. The first hour, first half hour of the show today, we talked about. how every problem in America today has a gospel-based solution. Be it racial tensions, be it economic inequality, be it breakdown in the family, there is a gospel-based solution.

The second half hour I spoke with author Dave Hickman about his book Closer Than Close, about the reality of our union with Jesus and how that affects our lives. The last half hour, I've been speaking about a defective gospel message, this motivational pep talk, self-help gospel that bypasses the cross, bypasses responsibility, and produces a moral laxity, a moral softness in the church. Because of that, we don't stand up rightly and function as the salt of the earth and the light of the world. And right now, it is critically important for America's well-being to say there are certain things that are right, there are certain things that are wrong, that there are distinctions that are made by God that are in the best interest of society having to do with male-female distinctions. There are models or roles that are best played by men and best played by women, moms, dads, boys, girls, that these distinctions are healthy and good.

And the church needs to be the one making this known, taking a stand. And in that light. I want to bring on my guest, Matt Sharp. He serves as legal counsel with the Alliance Defending Freedom, where he plays a key role on the Freedom of Conscience team. He's involved in a major lawsuit in Illinois right now.

I want to talk about that lawsuit, talk about why this is so important. If you're listening in North Carolina with HB2, you know that this is important. Matt, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you so much for having me. My joy.

Matt, tell us about what's happening in Illinois with these families who are fighting a new transgender access bill.

So we are representing 130 parents and students in the Palantine School District. suburb just northeast of Chicago. And uh back in December The school district voluntarily adopted a policy that would allow Boys into girls' locker rooms and restrooms and violate these girls' rights to privacy. and the district did it after they were threatened with loss of all of their federal funding. by the federal government, by the Department of Education.

And so rather than fight the fight for their students and fight for their right to privacy, the school gave in. And this had a huge impact on our clients to hear these girls tell the stories of now the fear that they have and the humiliation they experience. when they go to school, when they go into the gym to change for PE class, Now they've got the very real risk that a boy is going to walk in and see them in a state of undress. And so, for these girls, it's a very traumatic thing. And so, they and their parents said, you know what, enough is enough.

The government cannot force this upon us. The school district cannot force this upon us, and we're going to fight. for our right to privacy and make sure that these types of policies are not enforced anywhere else in the country as well.

Now, we've just got a minute before the break. We'll get into this in more depth. But Matt, is this that the girls have a fear that something would happen or have things already happened in the school year? Both. There is a boy in one of the gym classes that is now walking into the girls' locker room to change for gym.

And so several of these girls have experienced the actual fear and humiliation of a boy walking in in the middle of them changing. But this is an ongoing thing that is going to continue to spread and grow. And so it is both a risk, but also a very real thing that they're experiencing every day. All right, when we come back, I want to talk about where this case stands, what others who are concerned can do in their states. This has nothing to do with hating someone who's confused about their gender identity.

It's simply saying you don't turn the world upside down to accommodate someone who's struggling, and you don't trash the very real sensitivities and very real expectations of privacy that these girls have in a girl's locker room. Come on. Shake the nation, change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

I'm speaking with Matt Sharp. He is a legal counsel with the Alliance Defending Freedom. He plays a key role on the Freedom of Conscience team. He is involved in a lawsuit right now in Illinois. 63 students, 73 parents from Township High School District 211 challenged the agreement in federal court, challenged an arrangement in the schools right now that gives students who simply say that they identify as transgender access to the locker rooms and bathrooms of their choice, regardless of what that means to the rest of the school, the rest of the students.

Matt, this seems like social madness to so many people. It seems like we are. We are trashing the sensitivities, the needs, the expectations of privacy of a whole school. To accommodate one or two or three kids that may be confused, is there some other motivation? What is driving this radical social agenda, in your opinion?

Well, it's very much an effort that like you said, they have an agenda, and their goal is to force it on everybody in our country, on every school kid in our country and to punish those who hold any differing views. and you have to look no further than what actually happened at the school. This school had been over backwards to offer very compassionate accommodations to a couple of students that struggle with gender identity issues. to provide them a changing area, a locker room, restroom, whatever they needed, a private, separate space that they could use to have their privacy and dignity respected. But that was not enough.

their attorneys and the federal government demanded, no, you have to give this student full access to the girls' lockers and locker room and restroom. And any girls that have a problem with that, that are made uncomfortable, they're the ones that have to go use the separate restroom or lockroom. And so you end up with, like we have here, sixty, seventy students that are all having their rights violated and they're all being told they have to go somewhere else. Because one or two students didn't like the very compassionate accommodations being made.

So, this is very much not about. you know, a L G B T student saying, just give me a private place. They've got it. They're wanting to force their views on others and punish those who disagree. Yeah, and part of the activism really is a war on gender distinctions.

That is part of the enemy. That's part of the cultural norm that has to be overthrown. Matt, I was watching a video that was being used to train teachers in Charlotte Mecklenburg schools in North Carolina. And this one kid, couldn't tell if he was boy or girl, was talking about that they said you can use this bathroom. Either the faculty use there's one or there's another one that's a handicapped.

And this person's saying, but that's all the way down the other side of the school. But well, hang on. That's where the faculty goes. And hang on, that's where other if you have a handicapped student in a wheelchair center, that's where they go. But that wasn't good enough.

No, everybody has to be inconvenienced because of the Personal perceptions of this kid. And the way it is, Matt, you don't even need doctor's verification, as if there could be, but doctor's verification, or I've had sex change search where you can just say, I believe I'm a girl. as a boy and you could use the the girls' changing room, showers, bathrooms, it's that simple, right? That's absolutely right. That's what the Obama administration said in its guidance document to every school in the country.

If a boy walks in and says, I'm now a girl, from that moment forward, you have to treat him as a girl in every regard. You can't get the parents involved. In fact, there's been lawsuits. over schools that have tried to inform parents if a student came out as gay, lesbian or transgender, and the school gets sued for involving the parents, for letting parents know what's going on with their kids. And so we're not only seeing this breakdown of gender distinctions, but breakdown of Parental authority over the upbringing of a child, a parent's right to know what's going on in their kids' life.

Extraordinary. How many states have now filed suit against the Obama administration? 24 states. And so there's three separate lawsuits: one led by Texas, one led by Nebraska, and then obviously North Carolina as well. And so you've got a vast majority of states.

taking a stand on this and saying, you can't dictate how our local schools choose to operate. You can't dictate policies that violate our students' rights to privacy. Mm.

Alright, so what's happening now with this specific uh Case that you're involved with, and where do things stand? What's been argued in court so far? Yesterday in court, we had our first main argument. Our clients are asking for a preliminary injunction. Basically, school started yesterday, and our clients were saying: with school starting, we need the court to put a halt to all of this, to restore.

sanity to restore common sense and make sure that these girls' privacy and safety is protected when they're using their locker rooms and restrooms at their school.

So we had a hearing yesterday. The judge took almost over four hours of argument from our side, from the school district attorneys. from the government, U. S. government attorneys and took it under advisement.

But it was a really instructive hearing to see the two sides. You've got our side basically saying. The law is clear on this issue. Biological sex is clear. There's no questions about that.

And schools can maintain locker rooms and restrooms based on sex. And then you've got the other side saying, no, sex is entirely subjective. It's whatever a student thinks he or she is on any given day. That's what that student's sex is, and you have to treat them according to that. And so there really is two competing world views of one that's based on reality based on science and and genetics.

And then there's the other side that backed by the federal government saying, no, there is no objective reality when it comes to gender. It is fluid, it is changeable, and you must agree to that no matter the consequences for boys and girls in your schools.

Now, were you able to gauge where the judge was coming from on this or how the judge responded to the argument that perception is reality and you turned the whole world upside down to accommodate someone's perception?

Well, the the judge has taken a great interest in this case, obviously. It's very cutting edge and it's one of the leading ones in the country. And so did a very good job of asking tough questions of both sides.

So it will be interesting to see what the outcome is. We really don't know. We're cautiously optimistic because we think the law and science and everything is on our side on this issue. But the judge, I think, really did a good job of sort of. Playing it neutral to both sides and trying to ask fair and balanced questions of everybody.

So what would you feel were the most forthright questions he put to your side and to the other side?

Well, I think a lot of the focus was dealing with the government's authority to do this. Can the government come in and rewrite what federal law means. Because that's essentially what's happening. You've got Title Nine. Been on the books for 40 plus years.

And so the questions are: what do you do of a student that's transgender? Did Congress even anticipate that when they were writing this? Pushing back with the school district of what authority is there to do this. That seemed to be a lot of the focus of the judge's questions. where can we draw the line on this, with the government's authority on these new issues that maybe weren't contemplated by Congress when they enacted it.

So it was a revealing hearing, really just to see the other side radical approach to all of this, that they really want to redefine law, to redefine sex and to push their agenda nationwide. And we're always told that we're exaggerating our concerns, there's no problem, there's no difficulty, everybody's fine with it. These girls in the school, their families are saying that's not the case. And often we can come up with statistics, we can come up with reason. And then those who have the other viewpoint, they'll just tell a story.

You know, we might give all the reasons why marriage is best. Defined as a man and woman united together for life, etc. And then someone will say, Well, what about Jane and Jill? And they've been together for 20 years and they have a handicapped child and they show the picture and suddenly that all, yeah, that story often carries more weight than facts, than reason, than logic, than history. But in this case, we have some stories too, don't we?

We do. One of the ones that's really stuck with me is one girl in particular, and she describes how Every day when she gets ready for school, she first puts her gym clothes on, and then she puts her street clothes on top of that. And the reason is she doesn't want to change out to be in any way unclothed or undressed knowing that there's a boy that's going to be in the locker room with her.

So she goes into gym class, she takes off her street clothes, they go and do their gym activities. And rather than changing out of these dirty, sweaty clothes, she just puts her street clothes back on and stays in these soiled gym clothes underneath all day long. That is the humiliation and fear that these girls live under, that they would choose to do that every single day. rather than to risk being exposed in any way to the boy that's now using their locker room. And there's so many stories of girls of what they're doing and the extreme measures they're taking and of even the ridicule that they faced for trying to protect their privacy, of being called transphobic and bigoted simply for going into a trying to preserve some some small piece of privacy when they're changing for all of this, of doing it behind the curtain or something, it's humiliating for them and they're being mocked and ridiculed for just wanting to have common sense privacy when they're changing for their gym class.

Just extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary that it could come to this. And it's really the opposite of what Title IX even intended. You're going to end up with a boy athlete on a girl's team keeping a girl athlete from getting a scholarship or something. And as you said, it takes the word sex, which has always meant one thing, and now turns it to whatever someone thinks it means.

Matt, if someone is having issues with their school, something going on in their community, what's the best website to connect with the Alliance Defending Freedom? We've set up a dedicated website for this issue. It's called safebathrooms. org. And you can go, you can get information on what your rights are, on good policies that we encourage schools to adopt.

what you can do to take a stand on this issue for your children. Awesome. All right, safebathrooms.org. Matt, keep fighting the good fight. Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me. Hey friends, this is Michael Brown. I want to encourage you to join our support team today. Become a torchbearer, one of our regular monthly supporters that enables us to broadcast the line of fire around America and around the world. And oh, every month we sew back into you in many, many different ways.

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Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Don't be discouraged by the madness of this society. Don't be discouraged by radical decisions being made by school boards and city councils and even the Even the federal government Ping. Don't be discouraged. Truth will ultimately triumph. Life will ultimately overcome darkness.

Sanity will ultimately overcome insanity. Reality will ultimately overcome the deceptive perceptions that pose as reality. It has to happen. Oh, I know ultimately when Jesus returns that righteousness will prevail. But I believe that even before he returns, That we will see a pushback from the social insanity.

It was the premise of my book Outlasting: The Gay Revolution, where homosexual activism is really going and how to turn the tide. to lay out, okay, here's what we said would be coming. Here's what's happened so far. Here's where we said things would be going. Here's where they are going.

Now What are we going to do about it? And how should we live?

So, as to turn the tide back, say, Well, what do I do?

Okay, first thing. In our own lives we get rightly connected to the Lord. In our own lives, we enjoy quality fellowship with him. We are people of the word, people of prayer. We seek to live lives that honor him and please him in upright ways, be it in the workplace.

be it in our homes, that whether we're single, Whether we're parents, that we seek to be good models of where we are. That we seek to redeem the time that we have and use it constructively, not in a legalistic way, but in a way that says, I've got one life. I want to live it in a way that glorifies the Lord. I want to make the most of the opportunities that I have. We share the gospel with the lost.

We seek to win them to the Lord. And just as God took us out of darkness and brought us into his light, we seek to do that for others. If we have kids, we seek to raise them in godly ways and pour into them what's right and what's wrong. Let society have crazy ideas about marriage. let marriages fall apart around us, we can have a solid marriage.

That should be the norm.

Solid marriages in the church, healthy marriages.

Some of you have had a non-believer, someone turn away from the Lord, has left you, left the Lord. There's nothing you can do about that. There's no condemnation as if, oh no, it's all your fault. You cannot ultimately control someone else. But if both the husband and the wife say we we want to live for God, you never have to have a divorce.

You never have to have a conflict that breaks the marriage in two if both. Sides, both spouses will humble themselves before the Lord. He will give grace. If they'll humble themselves before the Lord and one another, he will give grace. and they can see positive change in every as in every every conflict can be resolved.

And then we seek to be salt and light in the society. and we advocate for what's right and we live out what's right. and we expose the darkness. I'm going to continue by God's grace to expose the darkness. I'm going to continue to swim against the tide and go against the grain.

Look, uh, In the coming days in Charlotte, North Carolina, there should be a massive gay pride event, and of course they'll be making a major statement against HB2, etc. And the newspapers will positively report it, and the media will positively report it.

So be it. These are people for whom Jesus died that need the Savior. They're not my enemies. I want to see them saved and come to faith, just like I want to see anyone else saved and come to faith. And yeah, there'll be a large turnout.

I expect that. The crowds used to be much smaller. There was a stronger Christian presence in the midst of the crowds. That's turned. That's not the end of the world.

It's not the end of the world. We need this revival. What we need is awakening in the city. What we need is Christians starting to live like Christians. And...

Please hear me. What we need is pastors and leaders. addressing social issues which are moral issues, which are therefore gospel issues, with wisdom and compassion and truth, from the pulpit. You are my pastor friend. Christian leader, friend, you are doing your people a disservice by not addressing these things.

So I don't want to bring politics in. No one said politics. You're not going to get up and endorse a Democrat or Republican candidate. I'm not talking about that. But your people live in this world and they face these issues.

How do I know it? 'Cause I hear from him day and night. How do I know? 'Cause I have friends. I live in this world too.

And I family members. And whenever a church asked me to address the social and moral issues, I'm flooded with a line of people afterwards thanking me. When I'll do a seminar somewhere and people come from different areas to hear it, there's a line of people with tears thanking me for addressing these things, saying, My pastor won't talk about this. I don't know what to do about my son. I don't know how to handle the situation in the school.

I don't know how to deal with this. I don't know how to deal with that. And they're coming up to me with tears saying, Thank you for being my voice. because they feel they don't have a voice. And one reason they feel they don't have a voice is because their leaders are not speaking up.

I want to remind you that a George Barna survey found that what was about 90% of pastors or higher said that the Bible. addresses and has the answers for all social, moral, cultural issues. And when they were asked how many of them preach on all those issues, it was only about 10%. the reasons being fear of losing people, Fear of losing finances. Fear of the controversy?

and when the congregants were surveyed, As I recall, it was over 90% who wanted their pastors to address these things.

So even the pastor's fears are wrongly based. They're wrongly based, number one, because you fear God, not man. You do what's right, not what you think is expedient. And number two, it's not even a legitimate fear because people want the issues to be addressed.

So come on, friends. How more crazy does society have to get? Be the sort, bees alight Shine with clarity. Make a difference with your words and with your lives. Let's expose darkness wherever it exists.

In any shape, size, or form, in any race, ethnicity, in heterosexual, homosexual circles, wherever it is, let's expose darkness. Through shining the light, through the gospel. Let's call people to repentance and offer them new life in Jesus. And let us call on the government, let us call on the society to do what is right. You will be massively helped by an incredible resource that we have this week.

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