Dr. Brown Speaks with a Pastor Who Rejoiced Over the Gay Massacre in Orlando, Then with a Pastor Who Believes American Can Be Transformed through the Gospel

I'm going to speak with a pastor who was happy to hear about the massacre in Orlando and wishes that more gays and lesbians had been killed. Um It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. You may recall after the Orlando massacre, a Muslim man who killed 49 people who were at the Pulse Bar, a gay and lesbian bar in Orlando, and wounded many others, that in the aftermath of that, there were some pastors who got national attention because they were saying it's a good thing that this happened, and they wish that even more were killed. And I took strong exception to those words.

And later in the broadcast today, I'm going to be bringing on the air one of those pastors, Pastor Roger Jimenez. And he's going to explain where he's coming from, and I'm going to tell him why I differ, and we will have a conversation about that. Those of you who will not be able to listen, that'll be about a half hour from now, those of you who will not be able to listen, you can catch everything later on the website, askdrbrown, a-s-k-d-r-brown.org, just by clicking on line of fire to listen to the latest broadcast. We're going to cover a few things first. Let me give you the number that you can call to get involved in the conversation: 866-34TRUTH.

8663487884. We spoke earlier in the week on the air about the riots in Milwaukee, about people. people Using others as pawns for their own political and social agendas. We talked about some of the key issues that we're facing today, which are not, in my view, black versus white, but larger societal issues or white versus black. They're larger societal issues we need to think about.

And I agreed with Sheriff David Clark, African American, the sheriff of Milwaukee, the county there. And he plainly said that there were failed liberal policies that have created the situation that we now have in the inner city. We've talked about how to rebuild the family. We've talked about the lack of role models and how to deal with that. If you wanted to weigh in, We were unable to get to many of you that wanted to weigh in.

If you want to weigh in, this is your opportunity today: 866-34TRUTH. How do we fix the problems in the inner city today, which transcend race, which transcend ethnicity? I want to play one more clip from Sheriff David Clark. He was on Fox Business. This is his opinion, and I want you to hear it.

Clip number six. You know what encourages this? The growth of the welfare state. These are underclass behaviors. 70% of the kids born in Milwaukee, at least for the last decade or so, are born without an engaged father in their life.

So I look at the progressive policies that have marginalized black dads. They pushed them to the side, said you're not needed. Uncle Sam is going to be the dad. He's going to provide for the kids. He's going to feed the kids, so on and so forth.

But Uncle Sam's been a horrible father. Uncle Sam does not love these kids, might keep a little food in their mouth, and that is about it. But we all know the importance of an intact family, what it can do to shape the behavior of kids. And when you have the situation like we have here in Milwaukee, it's in Chicago, it's in Baltimore, it's in New York and some other areas. This has been a total collapse, a disaster.

These progressive policies have hit the black community like a nuclear blast. And until we reverse this, this government dependency, that's what creates all of this. And it encourages it, by the way, along with some questionable lifestyle choices. But until the black community does a self-evaluation and until they begin to self-criticize about some of the lifestyle choices they're making, this stuff's going to continue to fester and it's going to continue. I think it's 100% right.

I believe what Sheriff David Clark said is completely right. And by looking at things from this angle, And by taking responsibility, And by not looking to the government, and then as we work together to rebuild families We help supply role models and mentors. Etc. Instead of rioting, instead of pointing the finger at others, instead of making it all a matter of. white on black police brutality.

I believe this is wise counsel. Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. The good news is that there's 50 less pedophiles in this world because, you know, these homosexuals are a bunch of disgusting perverts and pedophiles. That's who was a victim here, are a bunch of just. disgusting homosexuals at a gay bar. That was the voice of Pastor Stephen Anderson.

That is why I took such strong exception to his words. We. addressed it on the air we put out a video addressing it you can watch that on our youtube channel at ask dr brown and again a little over 20 minutes from now i'll be speaking with a pastor probably pronounced jimenez Sorry for my mispronunciation earlier, who affirms those words of Stephen Anderson, who echoes those words. And we're going to talk about that on the broadcast. Just a reminder.

If you are unable to listen live on radio. If you have a cell phone, if you have a tablet, if you have a computer, just go to askdrbrown.org, a-s-k-d-r-brown.org, and just click on listen live anytime while the show is on, all right, during our entire two-hour broadcast. You can listen live from anywhere, overseas, anywhere. As we have listeners from around the world, that's how many of them listen via computer, cell phone, or television. Tablet.

All right.

So the words of Sheriff David Clark. I believe are wise words. I believe are responsible words. They are the words of an African American sheriff. They are words of taking responsibility.

They are words of calling for families to come together. They are words that say that the absentee dads create the problem and that the absentee dads have been created primarily by a progressive Social a policy vision. and that those things that were allegedly going to help the poor, help the impoverished, help the underprivileged, have only hurt them. I believe what he's saying is absolutely right. And it's my general philosophy in life.

That if you are going to blame others for your current situation, you will almost never bring about real change. In fact, it'll become a lifestyle habit, it will become your way of life. It's always somebody else's fault. I didn't make the team because it was this person's fault. I didn't get hired because it was this person's fault.

I didn't get that scholarship because it was this person's fault. And the fundamental attitude you're going to have is. It's not fair. It's not fair. And and and listen.

In many cases, it isn't fair. 866-348-7884. Do you agree with what I'm saying? Or do you differ? In many cases, life is not fair.

Society is not fair. And you will experience injustice. That's a reality. The fact is, many other cases It's perfectly fair. and we blame people for our failures.

Uh yeah, I I'll I'll tell you this little joke my dad told me when I was a kid. A fellow went to get a job. As a radio ad announcer. In other words, he was going to read the ads that you hear aired on the radio. The problem was he had a severe stuttering issue.

It was very hard for him to get words out without severe stuttering.

So of course, as my dad told the story, the guy is stuttering through it. He goes with his friend, he's a Jewish guy, and he goes with his friend and he applies for the job, and he comes out some minutes later. And the fellow says, Friend says, did you get the job? And the guy says, th th th th th th th th th th they they don't like Jews. All right, for those who struggle with your speech or stuttering, please understand this was not meant as a joke or a slight in that way.

It was saying rather that here's a Jewish guy thinking the reason he didn't get the job is because he's a Jew and they don't like Jews, whereas the reason he didn't get the job is because you can't be a stutterer and be a successful radio announcer. That's what happens to many of us in life, okay? It happens to many of us. We have our issues, we have our problems, but we blame our failures on everybody else. It's the world's fault, it's society's fault, it's not right here, it's not right there.

And then in some cases, in fact, the odds are stacked against us. But you will never make progress if you just put it on others to get ahead. It will not work like that. It will not work if you think you're entitled to a free pass, you're entitled to a free lunch. It will not produce personal responsibility.

It will not produce the type of work ethic that's necessary. It will not produce the attitude that turns stumbling blocks into stepping stones. I can almost guarantee you. Every athlete. That you see competing in the Olympic Games, virtually every one of them had to overcome obstacles.

Virtually every one of them had to look defeat in the eye and keep moving forward. Virtually every one of them had something go against them at some point where they could have blamed the system or blamed this one or blamed that one. In some cases, the system was against them. But they overcame, they persevered. That's how they made it to the Olympics.

So here's the deal. Whatever situation you find yourself in, I'm speaking totally generically now. I could be speaking to a billionaire in a Manhattan penthouse.

Okay, I could be speaking to an 18-year-old walking down the street listening by cell phone. I could be talking to a mom with four kids hurting in the inner city. It is the same counsel for all of us. I could be speaking right now to a pastor going through a rough time. A home schooling mom.

Someone right now suffering at home, sick, whoever you are, whatever your situation. You will not make progress. having a pity party. You will not make progress with the attitude of woe is me, woe is me, woe is me. That will not work.

The only way you get forward, the only way you'll make progress and go forward is by saying, God, I need your help right now. Where I've blown it, in the cases where we have blown it, where we've done wrong, Lord, I take full responsibility. I make no excuses. Where others have hurt me, I forgive them. Give me the grace to move forward.

Forward. It's not always easy to forgive when a lot has been taken from you. It's not always easy to take responsibility for things that are difficult and embarrassing. But if we'll ask God for His grace, He will help us. He will reinforce our will to forgive others.

He will help us to humble ourselves where we have disappointed others. And if we don't look to the government, or to others to help us succeed. That is the first way to get out of the rut. What I'm saying is generic. It works in every situation: rich, poor, black, white.

Young, old, it is biblical, it is wise, it is proven. And on the larger social level, yes. I believe society as a whole in many ways has hurt black Americans. whether evil intended or well intended. I believe society has hurt African Americans on a serious level.

What do we do from here? Is it up to society to fix it? More welfare, more programs? Or is it up to society to work together to say, hey, we want to help empower you to be everything God made you to be. We're standing with you.

It's not a matter of a handout. It's a matter of a hand of solidarity. We're in this together. Let's work together to restore families, to restore dignity, to restore responsibility. How can we do that together?

866-34TRUTH. Let's start in Queens, New York. Nancy, welcome to the line of fire. Uh hello. Dr.

Brown, how are you? Doing well, thank you. Thank you. I was calling because I wanted to let you know that part of the problem and the frustration among African Americans is there's more of us who have accomplished something in life. And are taking care of our families, are raising our children properly, are attending church.

And when we get something nice, We're accused of being a drug dealer. We're asking what the N-word is doing with this or that. We are pulled over. We've had guns pulled in our faces. I'm talking about MDs I've worked with.

I'm talking about ministers. I'm talking about musicians. I'm talking about guys who fix cars. Yes, and that's been going on every single day, except when the cell phone camera was invented, then it started to show what was going on. And that's something that what can we possibly do?

I'm speaking to you with a bachelor's degree.

Okay, I'm married to a man that can resurrect a computer or a car from the dead. And he's been confronted with this kind of thing. And it's very upsetting, doctor Brown. And a lot of Caucasian Americans have their head in the sand and think this isn't happening. It's been happening for years.

I'm sixty eight years old. It's been happening for years. and is very upsetting. Yeah, Nancy, what you can do is exactly what you're doing, because I would say the majority of white Americans are not sensitive to these issues. They're not aware of racial profiling.

They're not aware of look, you are one of many callers who said the exact same thing To me, and I don't doubt you for a split second, and I cannot relate to your frustration because I haven't lived through it. What I can do is help be a voice to air it, and then to say, say this, tell you what, stay right there. I'm going to give you my thoughts on how we address this at a societal level. All right.

Stay right there and we'll be right back. Shake the nation. Change the world. Change the world. God of light, hear our cry.

Send a fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, I want to get to as many calls as I can. Echoing what Nancy and Queens has said, one of the men who worked on the uh tried to save the lives of the policemen who were Assassinated, who were shot in Dallas. Dr. Brian H. Williams, African American, Talked about the struggles that he has, doing his best to try to save the lives of these officers, including white officers, and being honest about the struggles he has as a black man, knowing he's going to be profiled and he could be treated a certain way by these same cops.

Very profound and eye-opening.

So, Nancy, as frustrating as things are, you have to keep speaking, you have to keep getting things out. You have to keep using friends like me to help get the message out. That's one thing. Here's the other thing: to the extent That that there's a recognition of the problems. In the inner city, those that are making wrong lifestyle choices, where there are absentee dads, to say, yeah, we acknowledge these and it's not up to the government to fix this.

We've got to find ways to rebuild the family. Then there's a sense of, okay, there's an understanding of a problem. And uh That does exist that can't be denied and Here's why there's racial profiling, etc. And there is no justification for what's happened to you, what's happened to your husband, what's happened to many other fine African-American men and women in our society. I've heard from pastors who have explained how they gotten pulled over and so on and spoken down to.

So we have to address the racism where it exists and keep exposing it. And then we have to address the problems in the inner city where they exist and talk about constructive solutions. Does that make sense to you? It makes sense. I just don't like the generalization of the whole community as being on welfare and just contributes to it just contributes to that image that gets my husband, my brothers, my colleagues pulled over for no reason.

Yeah, I understand that, and that's why several times I've said that these the issues in the inner city transcend race and ethnicity. These are wider issues. But thank you. I just want to make that very clear. I don't know that that that that It is saying that that gives the wrong impression.

As much as, hey, what are you seeing on TV? You know, when you're seeing a riot, people shouting black power and beating up whites.

Well, that's one little group of people. And you go somewhere else where there are whites trying to beat up blacks, that's one little group of people. But it gets portrayed in such a way. On a larger level. But thank you for calling.

Listen, you have not only an open year here, you have an open platform, okay? Thank you, Dr. Brown. All right.

God bless you. Thanks. 866-34Truth. We go to Mansfield, Massachusetts. Jane, thanks for calling the line of fire.

Hey, how are you? Doing well, thank you. So I'd like to just make that comment. You had That. Um you know, the absentee father has created.

Yeah. Um sentiment with The young blackman.

Well Absentee fathers have created a lot of things. It's not just with the black. I don't feel it's just with the black. I feel that it's with office that are in inner cities. and in public housing.

To me Jackson the meatpacking facility to create what's going on in the nation nowadays. Yeah, let me just say this, Jane. Of course, the absence of fathers has a massive impact. It doesn't matter skin color, it doesn't matter ethnicity. But there's an epidemic right now where you've got...

Over 70% of children born to African-American women are born to unwed mothers. And these kids are raised in fatherless homes. And I believe a large part of that is the social policies that have been put on black America or on the poor, and there's a disproportionate Amount of poor black Americans. I'm not blaming African Americans. I'm not.

It's the opposite. The opposite. Yes, we all take responsibility, but I'm saying the opposite. I'm with you that there are larger things in place that have hurt black American families. Therefore, looking to the government to fix things is the opposite of what we need to do.

undo the bad stuff the government's done. And then let's work together to rebuild families and strengthen them. But yes, I agree with what you're saying. 866-34TRUTH. Queens, New York.

Sherry, thanks for calling the line of fire. Yes, I think it's the Thank you so much, doctor Brown, for taking my call. You have a very interesting program today. And um knowing that you are a strong Christian and that This is a Christian program. I would like my comments to I feel that we As Christians, am I coming through okay?

Loud and clear. Oh, okay, thank you. I feel that we as Christians have an advantage in the world that we're living in because we actually have The answers. that our society so drastically needs we have an understanding, those of us who have biblical knowledge, understand that the underlying cause of the problems our society is facing is spiritual. We understand that the cause The root cause of racism.

and violence and all of the inequities in society is because there is evil. There's a source of evil, Satan. We have relationship with Almighty God through faith in Jesus Christ, who came to this earth. Teaching. Love Love for your enemies.

Prayer for those who persecute you, doing good to those that despitefully use you. not so that we could become Uh just be walked on and despised. but because love is the answer to all ills in society.

Now as I was listening to the dear lady Nancy, the previous one of the previous callers, I heard what she was saying, but I also Yeah. deep hurt and that she was speaking from her emotions. And as Christians We cannot merely respond emotionally to the to the bad or evil things that happen to us. We have to open up the Bible and read what Jesus taught. The Bible teaches us that we are not to return evil for evil.

But we are to conquer. Evil with good. No. I would not expect a non-Christian, regardless of their race, whether they're African American or whatever they are, I would not expect a non-Christian to respond in love if they were mistreated. Therefore, I understand why there's riots and things like this taking place.

But we as Christians, again, we should not be participating with the world because the world is just merely reacting because they don't have the answer. We have the answer. The answer is that we need to be the light and the salt so that men can turn to God through faith in Jesus Christ and be changed and be transformed. For example, John Newton, the ride of amazing grace, before he became a Christian, he was a horrible, cruel slave trader.

so cruel to the slaves on his ship that the crew members hated him.

However, after be becoming a true genuine Christian, Not only did he give up being a slave trader, he became an abolitionist. Because God changed his heart. And Sherry, we are literally out of time. But what words of wisdom for all of us, regardless of our background, skin color, ethnicity, if we know the Lord, These are words of life for each of us. Thank you for the call.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire today. How do we react when we hear about a massacre that takes place at a gay bar. How do we react when we hear that men who are presumably homosexual, women who are presumably homosexual, are shot down in cold blood. Do we say that's a good thing?

because they're evil people and they deserve to die. Do we mourn because they are people for whom Jesus died that were just murdered? Do we have mixed emotions? What is a right response? What is a Christian response?

What is a biblical response? What is a godly response? And what should our witness to the world look like and sound like? For any who have not followed me or my ministry for a number of years, please understand that I am hated by gay activists around America and around the world. that I am on various lists as this radical, homophobic, transphobic, bigot.

that I am called worse than Hitler. Because I say that God does not want two men or two women to quote marry. because I say that homosexual practice is sinful, Because I say that kids should have a mom and a dad because I have consistently written against and spoken against the goals of homosexual activism in our society. At the same time, many who've spoken to me who identify as gay or lesbian know that I care about them as individuals. Know that I say plainly that Jesus died for heterosexual and homosexual alike.

knowing that we will reach out with the love of God to every human being, regardless of how they identify.

So, I want to lay that out in advance. I am hardly here as someone that the gay and lesbian community looks at as some kind of hero. Quite the contrary. Uh you'd be amazed at the hate mail I get and the death wishes on pretty much a daily basis. At the same time, I was terribly grieved.

when I heard about the massacre in Orlando for quite a few reasons. My guest now, Dr. Roger Jimenez. Said things from a very different perspective than mine, but I want to give him a fair opportunity to. explain his viewpoint here.

So Dr. Jimenez, thanks for joining us on the line of fire. Thank you for having me on. Sir, let me ask you first, before we plainly talk about our strong differences, what does it mean to you to be a Christian and to be a pastor? What responsibilities do you feel before God and man?

Well, uh My responsibilities as a Christian are obviously to love the Lord my God with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my might. Um of my neighbor as as myself. And my responsibility as a pastor. is to help our church grow in great and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior. It's obviously to help our church fulfill the great commission as much as we're able to, reaching people with the balcony and helping them see the sidebowling.

and to grow in grace. Like I said, the Bible says teach them to observe all things. whatsoever I've commanded you. Uh so we don't uh hold anything back. We try to teach the entire Bible.

The whole council of God. All right.

Well, I appreciate that. Obviously, before we come to our differences, I would affirm every word of what you said and would agree with it. And we've just got 30 seconds before the break. I'm not going to jump all over you. You understand that I'm going to give you a fair hearing.

But as you look back at the comments that you made after the massacre in Orlando, do you feel that those were God-glorified and do you feel good about what you said? I don't regret anything that I said. I'm glad that. the message was actually put out there. Uh where for a bigger audience than what I would just be preaching to at our church to hear.

Um I do think that Some of it was taken out of context, or that a lot of people only heard, you know. 10 seconds. clip and then hear everything.

Alright, well tell you what, let's do this then. We'll come back and I'll play a clip for you that has been widely publicized. You can explain your rationale. I want to challenge that quite plainly. We'll do that together right here on the line of fire.

Age the world O God of burning, cleansing flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. As Christians, we shouldn't be sitting there and say, like, whoa, that's a tragedy, or whoa, that's a bad thing, or we're upset, or we're mourning, or we're, you know, something needs to be done about this. As Christians, we shouldn't be mourning the death of these 50 sodomites. That's the voice of Pastor Roger Jimenez, who is with me now on the line of fire. That was June 12th after the massacre at the Pulse Bar in Orlando.

Dr. Jimenez is the pastor of Verity Baptist Church. Let me play one more clip, Joey, clip number two from the same sermon. Then I want Pastor Jimenez to come on, explain if there is anything taken out of context there. And then we are going to air our disagreements for the nation to hear.

Clip number two. You know, people say, like, well, aren't you sad that 50 sodomites died? Here's the problem with that: it's like the equivalent of asking me: you know, what if you asked me, hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today? Um, no, I think that's great. I I think that helps society.

You know, I think Orlando, Florida is a little safer tonight.

Now that 50, you know, the tragedy is that more of them didn't die. I mean, the tragedy is, I'm kind of upset that he didn't finish the job because these people are predators. They are abusers. They take advantage of people. All right, let's bring Pastor Jimenez on.

First, sir, are those words words that you said you don't regret saying? Just want to be clear that when I asked you how you felt about things, you said you don't regret anything you said.

So you don't regret saying those words. I don't regret saying those words. In fact, I I say amen to those words. Yeah. That was exactly what I meant to say.

Yeah. And and I I find those comments from a scriptural standpoint utterly despicable. I'll I'll explain why. But is there anything that we're missing in the context that would qualify what you're saying.

Well, let me start by saying that I obviously disagree with you as far as finding those comments despicable, and I'd be happy to try to explain my position. Um but the only the only part that I would say is not in in context and and it's just what people assume. Um, if you listen to the whole sermon, and I don't know if you did, but you'll find that there's basically four major points to the sermon. The first point was that as Christians, we shouldn't be mourning the death of these 50 sodomites, and I believe the Bible teaches that, and I can prove that from scripture. The other point was, though, that as Christians, we shouldn't be advocating the killing of sodomites, and that's the point.

that the media Chose to ignore. And the way it was reported is that this pastor is inciting violence, he's advocating the death of homosexuals. where I never said that. I I said obviously the society we live in does not hold to the we don't live in Old Testament Israel under the laws of God, so we shouldn't be advocating the killing of the of the Sodomites, but when it happens, we shouldn't be mourning it either. And my third point was that as Christians, though our society and culture accepts This homosexual agenda that we shouldn't be welcoming it into our lives and into our churches.

My fourth point was that as Christians, we should be speaking up against the grave sin of sodomy, even though this. Quote unquote tragedy happened, and everybody's going to be on eggshells about speaking up against it, that we should not allow this. Because my point was this: that the media and the government was going to use this event. in order to try to scare Christians into either not They're going to try to use this. advanced to try to cause us to lose freedom of speech rights, to lose freedom of the right to bear arms.

So I was just saying that as Christians, we shouldn't allow this event to stop us from speaking up against this wicked and discussing things. Right.

So of course I'm quite aware of how the government was going to use this or the media was going to use it. And I address those things virtually instantly as well. And I'm also quite aware of the fact that you did not advocate violence against gays, although you have to realize that as a shepherd And as someone responsible for the lives of others, when you are glorying in this and saying, I wish he had finished the job and gotten more, that that could easily encourage someone either a little bit unstable or who thinks they're going to do God's work to finish it off. If the pastor's saying, it's a shame somebody didn't finish it off, maybe I should be the one to finish it off and make the pastor happy.

So you have to understand that even if the media misrepresented you, you dug your own hole with making these comments. But here's what I'm trying to understand. Again, I have for the last 12 years Stood day and night against homosexual activism to the point that I'm on various hate lists and watch lists and things like that from gay activists and the Southern Poverty Law Center and others. And to the point that, right, right.

So, so what I want to make clear, though, is who you're talking to, okay, who you're speaking to. And I've preached repentance and holiness for decades and spoke about God's judgment on America. All right.

And someone listening to this, gay activists will say, yeah, they're two vile homophobes. One's just worse than the other. All right.

So I'm not trying to win anybody's favor. I'm not trying to get a gay activist to like me. What I want to challenge you on is this, okay? Let's take Luke the 13th chapter. There was some present at that very time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

And he answered them, Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Those 18 on whom the Tower and Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Based on that.

Pastor, you should be rejoicing every time there's a car wreck. Every time there's uh somebody shot and killed, Every time there's a tornado that kills people, because more sinners are dying. And if we're going to say, well, those are worse than the others, Jesus is saying, no, unless you repent, you'll all deserve judgment. In fact, judgment begins with the house of God. And I would dare say that right in your own congregation, if there are other human beings, you've got guys who are committing adultery in their hearts.

You've got ladies who are guilty of gossip, and these are all sins listed in Romans 1 as worthy of the death penalty. But I didn't hear you broadcasting after the San Bernardino massacre how great it is that more sinners were killed. That's what I find to be utterly hypocritical.

Well, I disagree with your statements, and I think what you're doing is creating a straw man argument that simply isn't fair. And here's why. Although it is true, and I absolutely agree, that the Bible teaches that the wages of sins that And of course, all mankind, the way we will pay what we earn for our sin of death, and not just the physical death, but what Revelation refers to as the second death, which is the lake of fire. I agree with that.

However When the Bible uses the term in Romans 1, worthy of death, if you study that phrase worthy of death, that's always referring specifically to. the death penalty. And in the Old Testament, of course, God in His Perfect government. Gabe. Against many sins, and some of them, there was no government punishment given to them, but some of them had the death penalty.

Put to them.

So, what I think is hypocritical is that Christians will get up and say, Well, if you murder someone, you deserve to you you deserve the death penalty. And like, for example, I live in California where no one gets the death penalty. And I would say, No, that's wrong. You know, according to the Bible, these people are worthy of death because of that crime that they've committed.

Well, God.

So are adulterers, though, sir.

So are adulterers. And when there's a mass killing, it could well be there's an adulterer. And you have no idea. You have no idea. Those killed in the gay bar, it so happens that a gal on our ministry, School of Ministry staff is a former lesbian who used to frequent that bar.

And actually, knew people that were involved there, or knew people who knew people who were killed or wounded. And you have Well, let me just get back to this only because we have limited time on radio, and I want to make sure that. that we're clear on this. You categorize everybody. There are sodomites, pedophiles, abusers.

You have no idea who was killed. You have no idea if there is somebody there struggling, questioning, hurting. Maybe they just come out to their parents as gay, and the parents put them out of the house, and they're asking God for help. You just put them all in the same boat as if they're all trying to steal your children and abuse them sexually or something like that. Whereas God's looking at a sinning world.

And saying, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Rather, they turn and live. Whereas we know he hates murder, he hates the shedding of blood. Um this was murder. We know he hates that.

So it's the blanket statements that to me make make the gospel look bad, that misrepresent the Lord and that expose us as a bunch of hypocrites. Once again, you're you're doing exactly what every media outlaw has done, is that when I'm trying to explain my position, you've basically cut me off and not allowed me. To finish the statement, which I'm trying to answer the questions that you're saying I'm not answering. Which is First of all, as far as there being not everyone in the gay bar was a homosexual. What Romans one says, it says who knowing the judgment of God that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The Bible says that if you're having pleasure in them that do them, Hey, you're in that same boat. How do you know why they were there? Hey, if you're at a gay bar on a Saturday night, Sunday morning, obviously, why else would you be there if not to engage? That exposes how little you know about the subject. There could be a whole host of reasons that people were there.

There could simply be somebody who's put out, who's looking for companionship, who's not even sure about where they stand sexually. Listen, we're going to come back to you. I'm going to go right back to your words, let you speak. But please understand when we asked you to come on the air, I said I'd let you speak, but you can't go on long monologues because we have limited time.

So I'm being as fair as I can. But you haven't answered the question. Christians in your congregation are also worthy of death. You're being hypocritical in your evaluation. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. from the sermon in question by Dr.

Jimenez, Dr. Roger Jimenez, pastor of Verity Baptist Church. Quote: If we lived in a righteous government, they should round them all up and put them up against a firing wall and blow their brains out.

So, Dr. Jimenez, go ahead. Do your best to respond. Nobody's disagreeing with that. But to say, because Jesus said, but I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath commit adultery with her already in his heart, means you deserve the death penalty, is ridiculous because that teaching wasn't unique to Christ.

The Old Testament book of Proverbs says, Lust not after her beauty in thine heart. Yet the Old Testament put the death penalty on adultery.

So if you're asking me, do I believe that adulterers are worthy of death based on the Levitical law? Absolutely. I agree with that.

I don't disagree with that at all. I don't disagree with anything in the Bible. But were they rounding up guys who were lusting? In their heart to put them to death? The answer is no.

So, to try to equate that all sin is equal, It's just And then i it's incorrect and it's borderline insanity.

Well but Dr. Jimenez, Jesus says that you're in danger of the fire of hell. He says it's far worse. In Matthew 5, you're in danger of the fire of hell. Please don't cut the words of Jesus and Samuel.

Talking about salvation. When you're talking about salvation, all sinners are in danger of how they need to be saved. I absolutely agree with that. Oh, okay.

So here's Romans 1. He speaks of people. He's talking about a lot of different people full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They're gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless, though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die. You could die for being disobedient to parents in the Old Testament.

Here he's putting gossip in the same category, boastfulness in the same category. And yet you are not saying, let's round up all the gossips in our church and put them to death. And the kids who are disobedient to parents, let's shoot them, blow their brains out. When you hear about a murder in a school, you're not saying, well, I wish they got more of them because you know how disobedient these. Kids are.

You're making blanket statements about those in a gay bar of whose lives you know nothing personally. You are generalizing as if they're all pedophiles. And rather than having God's...

Well, I do think they're all pedophiles. I do think they're all predators. I do think they're all. That's what the Bible teaches. I mean, look at Genesis 19.

Look at Judges 19. Show me the one passage in the spirit. Hang on. You're not going to abuse the Bible on this broadcast. Genesis 19 and Judges 19 do not say that all gays and lesbians are pedophiles.

What kind of nonsense is that? Here's what I said. I said if you look at Genesis nineteen and you look at Judges nineteen, you see that the two major stories we're giving about homosexuals in the Bible they are t raping, they are trying to take advantage of, they are trying to Uh hurt. people because these people, they're not reproducers. They don't reproduce, they reproduce.

Where does it say they're pedophiles?

Well, here, let me explain why I believe that. Romans 1 is teaching a doctrine of a reprobate. Who's someone who had an opportunity to be saved and rejected God and rejected God, rejected God, and eventually God gave them over to a reprobate mind? The word reprobate means rejected. Their conscience has been feared.

And that's why he's teaching there. He's saying these people are doing unnatural sins. See, it's normal. Where does it say pedophiles? You said you assume they're all pedophiles.

Where does any of these texts make any reference to pedophiles or give you the right to make a judgment that everyone that was killed in Orlando was a pedophile? Here's why, because God has two categories, natural sins, unnatural sins. And just like it's unnatural for a man to be attracted to another man or a woman to be attracted to another woman, just like he put the death penalty on bestiality because it's unnatural for a man to be attracted to an animal, You know, I throw in there, it's totally unnatural for a grown person to be attracted to a child. Who gave you the right to add to God's words? You throw in there.

Do you think it's natural for a man for a grown man to be attracted to a child? Do you think that's all unnatural? There are grown men. There are also heterosexual pedophiles. There is all types of sexual perversion and sin.

It's unnatural. They're all reprobates. I think pedophiles should be put to death, too. I think they're worthy of death. It's an unnatural standard.

Do you get the idea? Listen. Here's the problem that I have. You are supposed to be a shepherd. You are supposed to be a representative of Jesus.

And you're throwing out your own opinions. You're throwing in your own words and supplementing. I love children in my congregation. I love my neighbor. That's why I preach against these wicked.

perverted Predators. Show me the one passage in scripture where God puts the homosexual in a positive light. There is none. Here's every time. Who said anything about a positive?

Here's what I know: God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn and live. And Paul says that there were former homosexuals who are now part of the body in Corinth. Such were some of you. Jesus changes lives. You're taking 1 Corinthians 6 out of context.

Number one. And in Ezekiel, when it talks about, but that they, that the wicked will be. What am I taking out of context? 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11, don't you know the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? He gives a list of wicked behaviors, practicing homosexuals, practicing adulterers, practicing drunkards, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you. But you are watching. The context of 1 Corinthians 6 is about not taking your brother to law against the world. And he says the reason you don't want to do that is because when you take, when you sue a brother in Christ and you take him before a judge. Or you take them to the courthouse, these are the types of people that are going to judge you.

And he gives a list of all these sinners, drunkards, homosexuals that's going in there. And then he says, and such were some of you. He gives you this long list of sins. And then Christians like you pick out the one sodomite reference and say, all of you were this one thing. When all he said, some of you did some of these things.

There's a list of like 20 sins. Why do you have to pick out the homosexual? No, why do you have to exclude that? You know, I find you not only to be despicable, sir. I find you not only to be despicable in the judgments you're making and an ugly representative of Jesus for good reason renounced by the vast majority of the body.

But I also find you to be dishonest, dishonest, and dishonest. Listen, sir, I quoted a scripture. I quote the whole thing, and I tell you, such were some of you. You didn't quote the whole thing. Former adulterers.

I said adulterers can be saved, and homosexuals can be saved. I know former homosexuals who were converted by the blood of Jesus, who were transformed.

Well, that's anecdotal evidence. How do I know that they're not lying?

Okay, so here's the deal. Here's the deal, and we're going to have to end here. This is utterly despicable. This is a complete denial of the blood of Jesus. There are former homosexuals, and there are former adulterers, and there are former drunkards, and there are former murderers, and there are former terrorists, and there are former religious hypocrites, all of whom are born again, all of whom.

I will not exclude one group the way this man does, sir. I call you to repent before the Lord. To humble yourself and repent. What you are doing is doubly dangerous because you are not just endangering your own soul, but you are bringing reproach to the name of Jesus and endangering the souls of others. And I urge you to repent and find mercy at the throne.

Oh god. My bottom line today I will not tolerate despicable words spoken about Jesus by a so-called shepherd of the flock. I'm speaking to a pastor who says it's time for heavy rain in America. It's time for spiritual renewal and outpouring. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. That's 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. I want everyone listening right now. to join me. Everybody just. Take a deep breath together and say with me, Wow.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I'm about to have a great conversation with a friend and colleague that is going to edify you and bless you. and encourage you and challenge you to believe God. I just finished a very disturbing congregation.

with a pastor, who when he described his duty, love God, love his neighbor, preach the grace of God, extend the great commission, etcetera., said things that I fully, fully agreed with. Then when we proceeded to discuss his comments about homosexuality, we proceeded to discuss his rejoicing in the death of 49 people at a gay and lesbian bar in Orlando in June. When he made clear that homosexuals cannot be saved, etc., I had to plainly. Stop the conversation and call him to repentance. We should have that up in audio.

It was an audio interview, of course, but we should have the audio up on our YouTube channel in the next day or so. And it's one of these very disturbing things that we must expose, we must address. We must renounce and denounce. It is not the gospel. What makes this all the more ironic?

Before I bring on my friend Chris Fallatin to talk about his new book, Heavy Rain, what makes this all the more ironic is that I am widely hated Uh by gay and lesbian activists. that I am branded worse than Hitler, and a homophobe, and a transphobe, and a vile bigot, So, it's not like I'm trying to win brownie points with the gay and lesbian community by speaking the gospel. It's not like I'm trying to get someone to like me. Oh, Dr. Brown's really a nice guy because he wasn't happy that the gays were killed in Orlando.

He's a nice guy. No, I'm still looked at as an enemy. I'm still looked at as a vile person because I don't recognize two men or two women as marriage, having a marriage in God's sight, because I believe it's best for kids to have a mom and a dad, because I say that you cannot follow Jesus and practice homosexuality at the same time. Of course, I'm going to be hated. Of course, I'm going to be branded.

Of course, people are going to feel I am against them. Fully Understood. All the more do I reach out in love, all the more do I speak words of life and compassion, all the more do I offer the gospel. All the more do I pray in secret with tears. for those who identify as LGBT.

So it's not and by the way. By the way, when I took issue with Pastor Stephen Anderson, who was the first to, whose comments were the first to get out. in terms of how wonderful it was that these people were killed at the gay bar. I've got people weighing in on YouTube. I wish we had more true men of God, such as the likes of Pastor Anderson.

I truly salute my brother and fellow servant in Christ. God bless you. Or for differing with Pastor Anderson. Dr. Brown is a false prophet, doesn't believe in Jesus Christ.

He believes in people's money and calls God a liar because he doesn't believe the record that God gave of his Son. Isn't that wild? Michael Brown is a hypocrite of the first order, soft on sin, worldly and compromised Pelagian heretic, etc. The USA is a Washington sin and God punish those in Orlando. And on and on it goes with people weighing in, supporting these very views that we just denounced in the last hour.

It's going to be a joy to transition over and to speak with Pastor Chris Valatin. He recognizes the mess that America's in. but feels that through the power of the gospel, America's ready for change and the church must lead the way. We'll discuss his new book, Heavy Rain, when we come back. Change the world.

Change the world. Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. You know, there are some folks that become dear friends. You spend a lot of time with them in one setting, and then you may not see each other for years, but that friendship remains.

Sometimes the only way you can get to talk to a friend, if you're a radio host, is have him on the radio with you. What a great idea. Chris Vallatin Pastor and author of a number of books, best-selling author, his new revised and updated book, Heavy Rain. How to flood your world with God's transforming power. You're going to get encouraged, you're going to get blessed, you're going to get challenged and built up this hour.

Chris, welcome to the line of fire. Thank you. Mm-hmm. It's a privilege and pleasure to be with you. Hey, how are things going with your family?

Everything in good shape? Yeah, we're actually doing quite well. A granddaughter that's just entering college.

So, wow, you know, it's uh. Yeah, it it makes me feel like I'm cramming for my finals. Amazing. You know, it's funny. I was dropping off our oldest granddaughter today, just needed a ride.

She's 15, and I was just talking to her about watching her grow up and how the changes hit you even more quickly when it's your grandchild because you're not around them as much as your own children. You know, we were chatting. She said, Yeah, I could have driven today, but I didn't have my learners permit. I thought, yeah, she didn't have it with her. I thought that illustrates it.

But you got one going to college. You're a few years ahead of me. Yeah, I'm like three years ahead of you. Yep, she's eighteen. Very exciting.

I've got Five teenagers in in uh and uh three. three that are yet to be teenagers. Very exciting times. I love grandkids a lot better than kids. I would have had grandkids first if I would have understood what I could have.

Yeah, absolutely. Before we get into the specific contents of your book, What do you think is wrong in terms of a lot of the thinking of Christians in general? Obviously, your reason that you wrote Heavy Rain, kind of a pessimistic way that we look at the world, that we look at history. What do you think we're doing wrong?

Well, maybe I would like answer it like this. What is it we need to do to you know, what's our big yes? And I think there's several things. One is I think we have an eschatology that is pretty fatalistic. If I If you had a fifty five Chevy and I had a restoration shop and you were going to you want your fifty five Chevy restored to brand new, And you brought it into my shop and halfway through the restoration process, You told me that when the car is done, you're going to put it in the destruction derby.

I think it would affect the Quality of our work.

So I think that what you believe about the end has lots to do with how you How how you live in the middle.

So, I think one is we have a fatalistic eschatology in which everything has to get worse and worse and worse until Jesus comes back. We have this Even though we've been called, you know, Jesus said, I'm the lie of the world, then he said, You're the lie of the world. And he said you're a city on a hill that can't be hidden, so he didn't say you're the light of the church. He said, you're the light of the world.

So we curse the darkness instead of light a candle, as somebody once said. And then we create an eschatology that makes it okay for darkness to get darker even though it's our responsibility to bring light. Got it.

So if we're just assuming everything's going to get worse all around us, whatever the latest news is, that's proof. That these are the last days. Both kids are prophecies. All right, so let's think about this for a minute, all right? We're both grandparents now with grandkids in their teens.

Now you've got one going to college. When did you really come to know the Lord for yourself? About how old were you? I was eighteen. All right.

Okay. All right.

So uh nineteen seventy one for me, I was sixteen, so we're right about the same age there. What what were you hearing about the return of Jesus and how much time we had left?

Well, you know, um I got saved in the Jesus movement. You must have too, probably. Yep. And um, you know, the you you'll remember that the textbook of that time was the late great planet earth. Yes, sir.

And you know, I love Hal Lindsay, by the way. There's you know, we all, in my opinion, we all make mistakes, but I don't know, how how Lindsay basically He, you know, he put into words w really what the what the Jesus movement taught and that. That is, is that the Antichrist is coming. We've got to prepare for the tribulation. Jesus could come back any minute.

Oh, he didn't come back.

Okay, oh, it could be next minute. Oh, he didn't.

So I personally did not go. To college, because I was taught there's not going to be a future, so why would you prepare for the future? The rapture is going to come any minute. And so, you know, I we you know, We didn't have a future, so we kind of hunkered down and. prepared for the big storm and about probably it was probably fifteen years into that uh theology that I finally realized like, you know, I don't know how you c have a legacy when you don't have a future.

And even Jeremiah, the famous Jeremiah 29, 11 says, I know the plans I have for you, not plans of calamity, but plans to give you a future and hope. And heck, I didn't have a future or hope. My future and hope was in heaven. And so we we we actually changed the commission, the great commission was that we were to go everywhere and preach the kingdom. And, you know, we weren't preaching the kingdom.

We are preaching the instead of preaching the kingdom's at hand, we are preaching the end of the world is near. had nothing to do with the gospel.

So Yeah, I was very influenced by by that eschatology. And I feel like that eschatology, it actually destroyed the Great Commission, which is to make disciples of nations, not just disciples in nations. I think it took away any sense that nations are our responsibility. Yeah, so again, I got saved same time and the same kind of mentality. And I only went to college because God convicted me to honor my parents who wanted me to go.

Otherwise, it even played in with the hippie mentality of who needs formal education or this or that.

So the idea, if someone told us when we were new believers that Jesus would still not have returned and we would have grandkids as old as we are. At that moment, that would have been hard to believe, and it definitely would have rocked. The way we were thinking. On the one hand, it's great to run your race with diligence because we only have one life. It's great to live in readiness to meet the Lord because no one has a guarantee of tomorrow.

But if there's no multi-generational vision, Boy, it's paralyzing. And those in society with different agendas, be it radical feminists, be it gay activists, whoever, they're not thinking they're out of here any minute. They're planning for laws to change and political climate to change so they can bring about their change. Whereas we're thinking we're out of here any minute, it's hardly an equal playing field.

Well, it's exactly right. And I think having I had this encounter with God some years ago And I was laying on the on the um on the prayer Uh in our prayer chop we'll f just on the floor just praying one morning and I was taking a hundred years into the future And I was sitting in a I was standing in this Kind of palace mansion, not sure what it was, castle. With this old man and a whole family was in the room, kind of like in the house, kind of like maybe Thanksgiving or. uh chamber union something and This old man began to tell these kids that were around him, these small children, about their history. I was standing next to the old man.

He couldn't see me. And suddenly his the tone of his voice changed and he began to look as if he was like looking into the future. And as he did that, everybody stopped what they were doing in the house, about maybe sixty, seventy family members, and they all came and sat around this old man while he was telling them about their uh their their historic past and their fantastic future. And as he As he was doing that, he waved his hand, and there was this beautiful, ornate fireplace that went like 30 feet. up into the uh ceiling.

And uh oh and he and he pointed to the fireplace and he And over the fireplace was a was a portrait of my wife and I. And he said All of this began with your great, great, great, great grandmother and grandfather. And at the end of that, I came out of the vision and the Lord said, I want you to quit your ministry and start a legacy. I want you to live for a generation you'll never see. And that uh that encounter absolutely radically altered the way I lived.

And I I honestly feel like part of our part of our life needs to be How do we leave an inheritance? You'll remember the parable of Jesus about the vineyard. And they they you know the evil people We're trying to kill all the messengers. that they could get the inheritance. The You know the it's it's So much of the Bible is about an inheritance.

So we we have to actually think About leaving inheritance. Proverbs says a righteous man leaves inheritance to his children's children.

So it's like, how do we actually live? Not just for ourselves. But how do we actually live to empower a generation that we will not see except for it uh until we get to heaven.

So I really think that's a big part of how Um why and how Seven. touch cities and actually want Our world to improve because we have kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, and great-great-grandkids. will be left this inheritance And we want to leave them a world better off than we got it. Yeah, Chris, I have been living with this kind of day and night. I'm finishing a book myself about the fall and rise of America.

And one of the chapters is on a multi-generational mentality. Chris Valadin's book, Heavy Rain. how to flood your world with God's transforming power. Is this gonna need to think? Is this getting you to think about, wow.

I need to approach life, ministry, family differently. More words of encouragement. We come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm speaking with my friend Pastor Chris Valatin. His book, Heavy Rain: How to Flood Your World with God's Transforming Power.

Dr. Jack Taylor says, You will be challenged, shocked, and if open-minded, beneficially stretched. Roland and Heidi Baker say a positive, detailed vision of the church is an effective catalyst for world transformation through the demonstration of both power and love, thought-provoking. Chris, we've never discussed our own end-time views in detail. I'm a historical premillennialist, so not a dispensationalist.

I don't believe in a pretrib rapture. I do believe there'll be an ultimate thousand-year kingdom on the earth, and with Israel in the center of that, you may lean more towards a post-millennial view. Either way, We have an eschatology of optimism in that we expect God's kingdom to ultimately triumph, and that that's what burns in our hearts. Plus, we don't know where we stand on the clock, we don't know for the last generation or if there are three. After us, or 10, I liken it to a relay race where you know you have to run your lap as fast as possible, but you don't know if you're going to hand it off to 10 more people or finish, but you're going to run your best anyway.

So, heavy rain, you're not so much pointing out what's wrong with our mentality as much as pointing us in the right direction. Direction. What does it mean then for the church to bring heaven to earth? I mean, are we going to see a perfect paradise here? Are we just going to snap our fingers and everybody's righteous?

What can we do?

Well, first of all, I think it's important to realize that We emphasize getting people to heaven, but Jesus emphasized getting heaven in us, right?

So, you know, he the only prayer taught us to pray is the prayer that you just mentioned, and that is that it would be on earth as it is in heaven.

So Jesus' emphasis Obviously, he died so that we could be saved and go to heaven, but his emphasis is that the kingdom would come on earth as it is in heaven. And the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our God. And also the you know the revelation obviously twenty one, we talked about the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and that God was reigning from there, which is a part of what your eschatology you just mentioned is But I I think it's important for us to realize that Um you know Everywhere God leads, there's free will.

So when we talk about what is heaven like, it's interesting that there we had angels in heaven. Who had a free will who decided not to serve God, right? And so it's interesting that even in heaven, God has. uh God's creatures have free will of some sort because they made a choice to to not not do what God wanted to do.

So I think that when we're talking about heaven on earth, we're not talking about in in in especially on earth, we're not talking about a perfect world But we are talking about a world that is highly influenced by Kingdom thinking. And so I think we're talking about We're talking about sickness being highly eradicated. Does that mean there will be no sick people? I don't think that's true. But I think that When we when we live When we bring the kingdom to earth, we actually create healthy ecosystems That actually eradicate a lot of the reasons why people are sick.

And you know, we both know that if you read anything about you know much about um Psychology and about physiology, you know that lots of times people are sick, lots of sickness is caused by anxiety and fear and torment. And so, you know, when Jesus comes, Isaiah 9.6 says, There shall be no end to the increase of his government or of peace.

So one thing that happens when we bring heaven to earth is that cities and states and ultimately nations Begin to live in peace because when the kingdom When God brings his kingdom, He brings peace. And so I think that we're talking about peace, we're talking about the We're talking about crime being dramatically reduced. Will crime ever go away? Not as long as people have a free will. Um will sickness ever go away?

Not as long as people have a free will. But when the kingdom is superimposed over cities and people begin to think like the king, Um, we see you know we see things like like torment. Um, we see things like, um, you know you know, like crazy thoughts and Crazy people and demonic forces being dramatically pushed back, So that people, the influence over cities is no longer principality. Let me say it this way: principalities and powers aren't just demons, they're also angels. And so what happens when we create an open heaven is we create a place For God's angels to ascend and descend, and no longer people's mind controlled by demonic forces, but the prince over the area happens to be a kingdom force.

And so I think that we think we see people helping one another, we see people loving one another, we see poverty dramatically eradicated. We see a generosity flowing freely so that, like in the book of Acts, it talks about the city in the book of Acts where there was no need. Um yeah, the i it's it's an exciting thought just to begin to think like what does it look like when heaven comes? Mm. All right, so Chris, what if someone says, and undoubtedly they will, you're dreaming, man.

Church has been here for 2,000 years. You may be able to quote the book of Acts, but certainly if this was really available, we should see it. We should see such things as communities transformed or cities transformed. What if they say to you, where is it? Has it ever happened?

What do you say?

Well, I would say that it's happened in part. We see the city of Geneva where John Calvin. Preached, and we see that, you know, to this very day, Geneva, you know, some of the greatest companies in the world are located in Geneva, and we see that he you know, uh, his influence actually uh transformed uh poverty into prosperity and we see a city not without crime, but we do see a s we s you know, a hu hundred, two hundred, three hundred years later, we see God's influence still in at work in that city. And so is that heaven on earth? No, no, it's not.

But it's what happens when one person begins to influence A city with the kingdom. And I think that when they when people say you're dreaming, I'm like, I am. I'm dreaming with God. I'm dreaming the dreams of God. And I these these are the dreams God has for our for our city in our nation.

And you know, the the the bottom line is is that You know it you know, Muslims are have made disciples out of five nations.

So the concept that People who have God views, and obviously, the Muslims have a different view of God. and in my opinion, a different God. But people that have God view can disciple a nation. The question is. Do Christians believe that Yeah.

people with a with A Christian view. A cr people with Jesus as Lord. Can people with Can people that are serving Jesus Actually help to lead a nation. in a way that brings the kingdom. And so, you know, we see uh Muslims bringing Sharia law and very restrictive.

Obviously, this call is not about that. But my point is, is that they're bringing their kingdom into play and they are actually They're actually leading nations through their world perspective. And we see humanists doing the same thing. We see we see uh the overlay of radical uh gay agenda um Actually Beginning to mentor the globe. And I'm like, so I, you know, the idea that.

people with different kinds of world views. leading a nation. is not new to us. Yeah. Yeah, and in fact, much of the great social reform that's come through history has come through the church as well as a lot of scientific advance.

The book by Chris Vallatin, Heavy Rain, How to Blood Your World with God's Transforming Power. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Should we be preaching a gospel that primarily says, come to Jesus, get saved, and get out of here? Should we be preaching a gospel that says you've sinned, you're guilty in God's sight. Jesus died for you to save you so you can belong to him.

Now live for him here in this world. In the light of eternity, there's a difference in our thinking. My guest, for just a few minutes, Chris Vallatin, has an important book, Heavy Rain. How to flood your world with God's transforming power. Chris, in the few minutes that we do have, I know in the book you like to give examples, not just big history examples, but individual examples, ordinary people.

That God used to make a difference in our world. And friends, you'll get more by reading the book Heavy Rain, but minister to our listeners, encourage us with an example or two.

Okay, let me just say this, like if you have Jesus Christ inside of you, you have the ability to infect and affect the world for a positive change. And we have still Students that graduate from our school ministry, young students. that they go back into their communities And they began to just listen to the Holy Spirit. and they began to just make positive changes in their communities. where they see people healed.

people delivered But more importantly, or just as importantly, they began to get involved in their school system, in their political system. And they're not protesting, they're not doing stuff like that, but they're seeing. they're seeing Jesus actually impact their city for good. Um we Um are in our church. We decided about ten years ago that our cities the health of our city.

was the responsibility of us as believers. And in our church, we began to tithe to our city. We began to develop work teams. We we send out our students, about 2,000 students. every week into our city.

We bought equipment, about $500,000 worth of equipment, and we helped take care of our parks. And we actually dream with our city leaders and we go to them instead of saying, Here's our agenda for our city, we say, You're our city fathers. Romans 13 says that you're actually ministers of God. You have a plan for our city. How can we help you fulfill your plan?

and we see our church members And our school students involved every day in seeing our city become. a great place where people want to live. And seeing our city become a place where crime is being reduced, poverty is being reduced. And it's all because individuals are actually taking ownership Of their own city and saying, What would Jesus do if he was in this city? How can the kingdom benefit our city?

And so it's not just about protesting you know um Gay rights or anything like that. It's not just about what are we against. The question is, What are we for? And how can you benefit your city? One of the visions I have, and I'll end with this.

Is that every church in America would have at least one person on the team, on the leadership team, whose full-time job is to say, How can the kingdom benefit this city? How can we help the social statistics of our city? How can we help the city in a way that's felt? Heidi Baker said. Love looks like something.

And my question is. How can your city actually see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven? How did people walk into Sol how did the Queen of Sheba walk into Solomon's? temple and see the way the tables were set, the way his waiters were dressed. practical things.

How did she see practical things and say, only half of your wisdom was told me. And that's That's our goal right there, that we would do our works in such a way that people would see the good works. and they would glorify our Father in heaven.

So the challenge is Today How can you take what Jesus has given you? and give it to the world who doesn't know the Lord in a way that they'd actually go, that must be God. That's way better than you. Yeah. Chris, that's that's an awesome word.

Seriously, from the heart. That's an awesome word, and it's what Jesus said: people see our good works and glorify God.

So you're not just talking about it. You're doing it. The book Heavy Rain: How to Flood Your World with God's Transforming Power. You can visit Chris at his website, Chris with a K, Chris Vallatin, V-A-L-L-O-T-T-O-N.com. Hey, man, we got to see each other face to face one of these days.

I'd love to. Thank you very much, Sergeant Brown. Thank you, sir. Give us strength to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right, well, what you just heard from Pastor Chris Valmadin, that's what we're talking about, moral, cultural, spiritual revolution. It it is not Just by human effort?

It is not just by our best new program. It is with the help of God, by the power of God, using the wisdom of. God?

Okay? Yeah. So i in in that light And that light We are supposed to be agents of change. 866-348-7884. Now, I've got a question for you.

I want to ask you an honest question. in your heart of hearts. Do you believe? that the gospel can bring about positive change in your society. your community your state Our nation country in which you live.

Or do you think it's never going to happen because the world is under the power of Satan? because Satan controls sinners, because most people do not worship God, because things are only going to get worse and worse. In other words, do you hear what Chris says and think that's a pipe dream? It's never going to happen. There's not going to be positive change that comes about, which then raises the question.

Why does the devil always get to win? If the devil's not going to win ultimately, What do we think he's gonna get to win now? Why should he get to win?

Now Is that a fair question? If you know that ultimately Satan will be destroyed. if you know that spiritually he has already been defeated. Why are you so confident in his day to day triumph Am I making sense? Why, if Jesus has risen from the dead, if all authority in heaven and earth belongs to him?

Why are you so expectant? of satanic victories all the time. I'm going to give you a very, very, very low-level comparison. to the lofty spiritual things we're talking about. I saw on the news yesterday during the day looked on intranet And I saw that the American women's basketball team Which is pretty much light years ahead of other international women's teams, the way the men's team used to be light years ahead.

of the other international teams.

Now they're getting much closer. I saw that they were playing against Japan. and that at half time it was pretty close. In fact, close to halftime, they were only up by like two points.

Well, by the end of the game, they had won by like 40-something. They absolutely. smashed the Japanese team. First time they were challenged, and they stepped up to that challenge.

Well, when I saw the score, I thought to myself. I'm surprised, but I don't think Japan's going to hold on. And sure enough, Japan team played the best they could play, it seems, but the American team is just too good.

So That was my expectation. The American Treams are going to win. They're going to win big. because they're that much better. All right, so now I jump from that very natural, small illustration and jump over to a spiritual illustration.

And I asked this. a spiritual truth. If Jesus indeed has risen from the dead, Right? If all authority in heaven and earth has been given to him, If he has already defeated Satan and will ultimately crush him, Why are we so expectant of bad things to happen? Oh, of course there are going to be bad things until Jesus returns.

But I mean, why are we so expectant that society is going to go in the wrong direction? that America's just heading down, down, down. That the world is just going to descend more and more into chaos. Why are we so expectant that the devil will win? As opposed to saying, well, why aren't we expecting the kingdom of God to expand?

Why aren't we expecting the gospel to triumph?

Now look. I want to throw some stats out to you. On the one hand, it is true that there are probably well over 2 billion people on the planet who've never heard the name of Jesus. And if you went to talk to them about Jesus in their language, they would have no idea what you're talking about, who you're talking about. Is that a place?

Is that a person? They'd have no idea. And we know that there are A couple billion others that have a complete misconception of who Jesus is. Those in the Muslim world, those in other religions have a complete misconception of who Jesus is, even though they've heard about him.

So we have our work cut out for us. There is much to be done in terms of the Great Commission. Obviously. No argument about that. But but consider something.

Missiologists have estimated that at the end of the first century, Roughly one out of every 360 people in the world. was a true follower of Jesus.

So even though the gospel had spread wonderfully and dramatically at that time, you're talking about a tiny, tiny percentage of the earth. Uh I've seen it estimated. that at the end of the 1800s, this was a great Uh a great Missions time. This was a time of great increase as far as the gospel going into all the world. that at the end of the 1800s, That roughly one out of 27 people on the planet.

Were believers. In fact, let me get these stats right in front of me. I have this in my book, The Revival Answer Book.

So, this was Ralph D. Winter was writing in Missions Frontiers in 1990.

So, the year 100, after the book of Acts, after the glorious movings of God and all of that, estimated one true Christian on the earth for every 360 people. By the year 1900s, so the end of the 1800s. estimated it one out of every twenty seven. And by 1989, they estimated one out of every seven. By the year 2000, they estimated one in every three.

Now, Those estimates would would be a little too high in terms of True Christian, but if you just look at the general world population of professing Christians. It's almost one in three.

So you've gone from one in three sixty At the end of the first century, 1 in 27 at the end of the 19th century.

So the end of the 18th century, excuse me, the 19 yeah, the end of the 1800s, the end of the 19th century.

Sorry, get that confused sometimes. 127. And now we're at the point where it's close to one out of three. The greatest majority of people who've come into the kingdom have come into the kingdom in the last 50 years. As much as we see backsliding and declension in many ways in America.

As much as we see that around the world, the gospel is spreading in unprecedented ways in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America. In fact, the great need is discipleship. The great need is ground new people in the word and godly character because so many are getting saved, and there's such a great need for discipleship. Let's look at this from another angle, okay? uh Bible translations.

Those have grown exponentially. Absolutely exponentially around the world. It was very slow going initially. For centuries and centuries and centuries, and massive expansion there in the last hundred years. that you're talking about the the vast, vast, vast, vast vast majority of people around the world can have access to at least part of the Bible in their own language.

Where it remains is in very small dialects in different parts of the world. But say in India, for example, there are many dialects that do not yet have any part of the Bible in their language, and it's important to get it to them. But if you speak one of the six principal languages in India, then you have, or can read it, you have access to a Bible in your language. Here's another estimate. Uh milestone dates in the growth of true Christianity, a chart I was looking at, and it estimates this, has little different estimates.

That uh up through the year 1430. up through the year 1430. You had one believer for every hundred people on the earth.

So 1 to 99 after 1430 years. Then 2 per 100. All right, uh, two percent by AD 1790.

So you went from one to 99 after 1430 years, now to one to 49 believers on the earth after another 360 years. When you get to 1940s, that's 150 years later, it's now jumped to 1 in 32. 1960, so after just 20 years, it's jumped to 1 in 24. 1970, it's jumped to 1 in 19 after just 10 years. Jump ahead to 1995 when I had this chart, 1 in 8.

And that's expanded from one in nine just two years earlier. In other words, exponential growth of the gospel. We need to look at what God is doing. And in light of what God is doing, we need to have confidence, we need to have expectation. And we need to say, hey, if God could change me.

How many of you could raise your hand and say, yeah, God dramatically changed me? God could dramatically change me. He could dramatically change my family. How many of you say, yeah, my whole family got impacted by the gospel? Or because I came to know the Lord, my spouse came to know the Lord, the kids we have are godly kids, whereas my spouse and I were raised in ungodly homes.

So that's now a generational transformation from being raised by non-believers to now raising believers, who in turn, by God's grace, will raise believers.

So if that can happen on a family level, Could it not happen? On a Neighborhood level? Could it not happen on a citywide level? Why is it impossible? Or at least to see the gospel spread in such a way.

That things are tilting towards light rather than towards darkness. Where does it say that can't happen in this age? We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Are you atheist? Yes, yes. Why?

Um, well, I just haven't seen enough evidence, I suppose. I grew up in a Christian family, and just over the few years during high school, and as I grew up, I just realized that there wasn't a lot of evidence to support that belief system. If you could be given evidence, reasonable evidence, would it... Would you listen to it? Yeah, I would.

You're someone who has no faith or no belief in a higher power or a creator, but if you were shown evidence, you would change your mind because you're open. Absolutely. That is from the powerful new movie. The Atheist Delusion by Ray Comfort. We got such a great response to it last week that we added it again another week on our website.

But check this out. Check this out. When you download this, 50% of the proceeds are being donated back to our ministry by Ray Comfort's ministry.

So you'll be blessed and we'll be blessed. But we decided to do something kind of crazy. Over and above to be a blessing this week as well. And we did a few years back at Fire School of Ministry, we had six weeks teaching about seven hours each class. Different experts came in and spoke, and we had a school of cultural engagement.

John Rankin, you may have heard him a couple of times on the line of fire, excuse me, absolutely brilliant, taught from only Genesis. Outlining how positive assumptions from Genesis cover everything that we need to cover in every area of society. Reclaiming Godly Sexuality by Joe Dallas, considered to be rightly so one of the top spokespeople for this in the world today. I spoke on it's time to rock the boat and talked about our compromise gospel message versus the biblical gospel message. Frank Turek, one of the top apologists today, did a great class on cultural apologetics.

My friend Pat Mahoney, who's worked in DC for decades, spoke on engaging culture, Congress, and the media. And then attorney Joan Franco, who's on the front lines of major cultural issues today, spoke on separation of church and state. I think people paid maybe about $40 per class.

So if they were there, maybe $240 to be there for the classes. We put it out on CDs, the whole School of Cultural Engagement, $150, which is still a great deal, over 40 hours of teaching. But you can download. Them all for $20. Yeah, so over 40 hours of teaching you can download and then listen to whenever you have the opportunity.

Put them aside, pull out this one, pull out that one for just $20. We've added that in.

So the movie And then the School of Cultural Engagement download them, you'll be blessed. And you'll be equipped, you'll be strengthened, you'll be inspired, you'll be able to bless. others so let me come back to the the larger uh the larger subject here.

Okay, let me come back to that. Uh Yeah. If we are to have the mentality of Jesus. We will not have a defeated, hopeless mentality, will we? will have the mentality of resurrection.

We'll have the mentality of light. We'll have the mentality of redemption. What does that look like? What does that translate out to?

So let's think about it, all right? John the ninth chapter. What happens there? The disciples see a man born blind.

Now it was it was an obvious thought. that if he's blind, there's sin involved.

So they asked the question, Rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents, that he was born blind. Yeshua answered, it was not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him. See, there was even Jewish thought. That said that you could sin in the womb. And so you could be born with a defect.

That's why who sinned this man or his parents. I'm not talking about reincarnation, but the possibility of him sinning in the womb. That was some Jewish thought that seems to have existed even at that time.

So Yeshua says, Jesus says, it's not that this man sinned to his parents. but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

So he doesn't even answer ultimately why The man is blind. He doesn't answer that. But it says it's that the works of God might be displayed in him. Then notice what he says. We must work the works of him who sent me while it is day.

Night is coming when no one can work. As long as I'm in the world, I am the light of. The world. Mm. As long as I'm in the world, I am the light of the world.

What's he saying? He's bringing the perspective of light. The disciples just thought in human terms, and there must be sin and judgment, that's why the man's blind. Jesus looks at this as an opportunity to glorify God. And notice what he says about doing the works of God.

while it's yet day.

Now, John the 11th chapter Lazarus is ill. Jesus hears about it, but he doesn't go immediately to heal him. And his disciples misunderstand what's going on, and there's a There's a a discussion that takes place.

So he stays two days before going. And then he says in verse 7 of John 11, Let us go to Judea again. The disciples said to him, Rabbi, The Jews were just now seeking to stone you. and are you going there again?

So the Judeans, they're seeking to stone you. Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble because he sees the light of this world. But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles because the light is not in him. After saying these things, he said, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, and I go to awaken him.

The disciples said to him, Lord, if he's fallen asleep, he'll recover.

So then Jesus tells them plainly, Lazarus has died, but for your sake I am glad that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him. In other words, this is an opportunity.

Now that he's dead. This is an opportunity for God to be glorified. Jesus was not thinking and walking in darkness. He was not thinking about, well, if I go there, this might happen, that might happen. He wasn't walking in fear.

Instead of He was saying, okay. Here's an opportunity for light to shine in darkness. Here's an opportunity for God to be glorified. If you believe, you will see the glory of God. Isn't that what he says in this very context?

If you believe, you will see the glory of God. So, Light looks at trouble, hardship, difficulty as an opportunity, a platform through which God can be glorified. Light looks at suffering and pain as an opportunity for God to be glorified as healer, as deliverer, as the merciful one who cares. And we need to look at the the mass of our American society today. And the pain of this society and the brokenness.

has a great opportunity. for the church to rise up. and make a difference. that people will look at us and say, Glory to God. That is wonderful.

That is evidence of the reality of God. And that's the kind of God I want to serve and know, and we can lead them to repentance and faith in Jesus. Hey, why not? Oh, the end of the age I expect to be parallel extremes. I expect there to be great light and great darkness at the same time.

But I absolutely expect to see a wonderful manifestation. a wonderful manifestation of the glory of God on this earth. I expect to see the kingdom of God coming in power. I expect to see Jesus mightily lifted up. I expect to see several billion people dramatically impacted.

That's the God that we serve. My bottom line today. If you're praying, your kingdom come, Lord. Expect it to come on a daily basis until it comes in its fullness when Jesus returns.