An Interview with Pastor Bill Johnson and Getting God's Mind in the Midst of Election Madness

You're about to get to meet the real Bill Johnson, pastor of Bethel Church in Reading. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I'm holding in my hands a brand new book by Pastor Bill Johnson. Entitled God is Good.

He's Better Than You Think, has a far by Pastor Robert Morris. And the opening pages, it's kind of a who's who of charismatic leaders from around the world commending this book and commending Bill Johnson. He is one of the most respected and loved leaders in the charismatic movement. And I was just listening to clips before the show today where people said he's a heretic and a false prophet.

Well, I said, well, let's get Bill Johnson on the line of fire so we can find out who this man really is, what he really believes, and find out why he's so adamant about saying that God is good. Bill, thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. No, it's my privilege. Thank you. Uh Bill.

Could you just take a minute? and let my listeners know what makes your heart beat What are the things that are most important to you in life and ministry? It's just representing God well. You know, first of all, it's to love Him well. And just you the affection of my heart just uh burns for him continuously.

and then to let uh people know through my words and actions uh what he's like. And he's just so he's so perfect, he's so good. He's righteous, he's holy, he's pure, but he's he's just a gracious Father. And Jesus said, As the Father sent me, I send you.

So he was sent by a Father. to represent the Father, and then Jesus sent us to do the same.

So that's really, you know, it has to for me, it has to include the miraculous, it has to include acts of compassion and kindness. It has to include the boldness, you know, of the declaring God's heart, God's Word. You know, it's all the above, but it's just it comes down to just loving God well. and representing him. And how do you feel that the church over the years has sometimes misrepresented him?

Oh, goodness. Yeah. represent him if you you know, what you think about him really determines how you represent him. And there are so many that uh attribute every evil thing in the world to to God. And uh and when you have a father that is that You know, uh split in personalities you you you don't you don't represent him well.

And so oftentimes we're uh the church is very angry or hostile. Towards people, people that have sin issues, that really need help, need deliverance.

Sometimes the church is just really hostile and angry. and feels almost vindicated for that. anger, that hostil hostility. I mean Jesus You know, the the times he was angry it was against religious leaders, the sinners he just poured out compassion on and I I just feel like we got some adjustments to make.

Okay. And in your book, God is Good, you're obviously making a positive statement. You say He's better than you think. But you do say that God is holy, and you do agree that sin is. Destructive, is it possible to paint an exaggerated picture of God's goodness where we forget about his holiness and his hatred of sin?

Well, I I would put it differently. I don't think it's possible to exaggerate his goodness. I think it's possible to misrepresent it or to distort it.

Okay. You know, uh to distort it would be to say that God uh doesn't care about people's sin and I mean, that's y you can't find that. What what I try to do is I try to look to the life of Jesus. to find the example to follow. And how did Jesus treat sinners.

He si he treated them in such a way that they all wanted to be with him. But he didn't overlook sin. He didn't ignore the issues. He would go and sin no more. It was his.

Yeah. to people in in deep bondage that got breakthrough and And uh and so uh that's the example I just try to follow, is that He cares about people enough to hate sin. to pay a price for people to be free. But he doesn't uh He doesn't tolerate overlooks sin. He really helps people to get free.

Right. And the fact he said that sinners wanted to be with him. Do they want to be with us? All right, we'll be right back. And a lot more with Pass to Bill Johnson.

Oh, God of burning, cleansing. Flame. Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. If you go Google. Type in. Capital J.

E S U S space capital C. What do you suppose pops up? What would you hope would pop up? Jesus culture. It's a worship band out of Reading, California, Bill Johnson, part of the New Apostolic Reformation movement.

They are huge. 15-minute worship songs, monotonous droning, and it's all about the holy. Come and fill us, come and fill us. Let the river flow and fill us. We're hungry for you.

And kids are buying it by the hundreds of thousands. They sell out arenas, they are huge. All right, that is a clip from 2013. Todd Friel talking with Phil Johnson. They've worked with John MacArthur's ministry, Phil Johnson, very closely.

And they are not happy with Jesus' culture. It goes even further than that. JJ, let's play clip number 14. What does the evangelical church need to be doing, if anything, to be addressing this issue, which is not being spoken of? It's a bigger, far more important issue than even abortion, because abortion, yeah, it slaughters infants and we all deplore that and all of that.

But these are false prophets who are ushering people into hell. All right, that was Phil Johnson. Speaking of my guest, And the ministry is part of saying they're false prophets ushering people into hell. That was wretched TV. And Pastor Bill Johnson, author of the new book, God is Good.

was willing to come on the air. And answer some questions and respond to things that have been said about his ministry. My goal in having him on is: I really want you to know who the man is. What makes his heart beat? What he believes, and let's separate fact from fiction.

Bill, I know that you are not a controversialist. I'm always in the midst of controversy day and night, and responding to things and taking on things in the culture. You're not one that's going to attack back or respond in kind, but. Honestly, As a brother in the Lord, you hear these other men who I I believe love the Lord and are trying to do what's right. How do you feel about things like that that are said about your ministry and Jesus culture, the worship that's that's flowed out of Bethel?

Well, it's sad. It's sad to me. I you know, I pray. I pray that I pray that these folks would not have to reap the seeds that they've sown. Because they you know, s a lot of times they believe rumor or they believe speculation or their own to me, perverted doctrine distorts, you know, what they see about how we're supposed to live life and So it's it's sad to me, you know, I I I always feel bad when I hear stuff like that.

But it doesn't it doesn't change, our assignment doesn't change. you know, our love for God and our love for God's people. You know, I would I would uh you know do what I could to serve and to help. Any of those guys if they had cracked. Yeah.

But I I I can't you know, I can't react to it and uh neither can I join with them. Yeah, I think it's kind of spirit of accusation, you know. Right. And obviously, you've not done that over the years, and you're not known for that. And I've invited folks because I've got a wide range of listeners.

I have folks that are non-charismatic, folks that are charismatic, people that follow me for cultural issues or Jewish outreach, others for revival and things of the spirit.

So as much as I'm in circles and travel in circles where we've ministered together and done events with mutual friends together and sat over meals together, and I've had the privilege of preaching at your church, you were away, preaching at your church and speaking at your school. There are other settings I'm in where you would be viewed with disdain. And it's amazing I'm even in those settings.

So I don't want to focus on that during this interview, but I told folks: if you have a question, here's your opportunity to call in. Pastor Johnson's happy to answer that. With a movement as big as yours. When I was part of the Brownsville revival, obviously people being touched all around the world, people doing a lot of things in the name of Brownsville. Do you think there are abuses, things that happen with people that may be associated with Bethel loosely or just with people who graduated from the school?

You've had thousands come through. Do you think there are abuses or things that are being taught that? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, you know, we work with people.

And we all try to do our best, and sometimes we misrepresent, sometimes we exaggerate something.

something that maybe began uh as a real wholesome thing and and then it ends up being distorted. You know, the discipleship movement, you know, discipleship's a real thing, but it it it started healthy and ended up getting strange and I mean, history is filled with that, so I I don't know that we're any different, but we I'm sure that we have people that misrepresent us. But uh but I'm uh What I'm more thankful for is that we have you know, thousands of people that are a accurately representing What we believe the Lord is saying and requiring of us. And so that, of course, is what we celebrate. What about your own journey in terms of revival?

and the presence of God. What happened in your own life to get you where you are today? You know, in nineteen eighty-seven, I attended a conference. uh with John Wimber in Anaheim. And I heard things that I had taught for the previous couple of years.

But he had fruit for what he believed in. I just had theology. And I went home disturbed actually. Um because there wasn't the fruit in my life that there was in his. And I realized I needed to kind of put a demand on what I believed and not just wait for it to happen around me, but to actually.

pursue and take risk. And so we did. And within a week or so, we started seeing things we had never seen before. That started it. I went to Toronto in nineteen ninety five.

and I didn't have any dramatic experience, but I I I saw I sense the same thing. anointing and presence that uh that we had been experiencing in recent years. I went to Pensacola in ' ninety six. very different expression, but same anointing. And um I just came home and said, Lord, I I just give you my my life to demonstrate what you're doing in the earth and And I just I commit myself to to live for this purpose, to display your wonders.

Uh in the era and um So that was really my journey. I had an unusual encounter with the Lord. Um three o'clock in the morning in October of of seventy five. that they're really changed my life forever. And um It it was just an encounter where he He just uh he really dealt with the issue of the fear of man.

and wanted to know Wanted to know if I would surrender my right to dignity. And uh in in other words, looking good before people. And uh and I I I came to that to that place in in the middle of the night, just weeping in my bed. And um And I just I did. I surrendered that.

I said, Lord, you can do whatever you want with me. I just. I've just got to have more of you. I've got to see. Just the reality of the life of Jesus flowing in my own life and the people around me.

and that whatever that looks like is fine and So that's in a nutshell, that's my journey, and it continues. You know, still. Still hungry and still in need. But but you've you've been able To see something sustained at at Bethlehem, you may have had certain Especially intense times there of the moving of the Spirit in the early days. But there's been something sustained: people regularly coming to faith, people regularly being touched by the Spirit, people encountering the goodness and love of God, manifestations of the Spirit.

What would you say is the key to sustaining this over the years?

Well, you know, the scripture says that God lit the fire on the altars, but the And uh when the Lord touched me in 1987, that move of God would come and go over the next seven years. And I didn't realize it was the priest's responsibility to keep the fire burning. And so after he touched me in '95, I just purposed in my heart I would try to discover what that looked like. And uh mixing metaphors now, um fire always falls on sacrifice, so. my whole point to our our congregation, our people, is is be the offering, be the sacrifice, be the person that the fire of God falls on.

that touch of God falls on.

so that we that we continue to burn with this passion. Can't hype it, and I'm not a person of hype, I don't like hype. I I do like enthusiasm and passion and and and zeal. And so I won't try to hype it, but I really appreciate the fact that we have a lot of people around us that are so thankful for what God has done, but have remained hungry. And I think that I think that tension has just become a real key for us to be grateful, knowing that Everything we've been able to experience is all from grace.

We didn't earn any of it. Even on our best day when we, you know, took the great risk and exercised faith and it still all came from him. It all came because of grace.

Okay. We remain thankful, but we also remain hungry, realizing there's so much more we've We've not even close to arrive to what he wants to do in the earth. And so just keeping ourselves exposed to God's heart, His promises, What he's declared would happen in his word. It just keeps you hungry. And as long as you stay hungry, y you remain the offering that attracts the the the fire, the touch of God.

So that that's really what we We try to keep it real simple, but that's what we pursue. Yeah, and in fact, the promises in Scripture, if you've studied them consistently, come to the hungry, come to the thirsty. The words of Jesus, blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. They will be filled. Pastor Bill Johnson's new book, God is Good.

I've got a bunch more questions for Pastor Bill Johnson. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire with my special guest, Pastor Bill Johnson, his new book. God is good. Bill, I want to ask you. One other question that's come up a lot, and people asked me to ask you about it.

I want to read something that your associate and colleague for many years, Chris Vallatin, wrote. He said, I've been asked what I think about grave sucking. Several times lately. It's May 19th, 2015. He wrote this.

Personally, I'd never heard the phrase before a couple of months ago. I guess they're asking if I believe you can receive some dead person's anointing by laying on their grave.

So he says he thinks it came from 2 Kings 13, where bones of a dead man, a dead man was thrown on the bones of Elisha, and the person revived and stood up to his feet. And he says, This: It's been an inside joke among our Bethel team for years. I really thought it was funny until some folks took it seriously. I mean, if God wanted us to receive some kind of impartation from people who have already passed, then certainly we would have some New Testament examples or instruction on it.

Furthermore, if you could receive some gift from people after they died, then why did Joseph want Jacob to lay hands on his sons before he passed, that they could just as easily have received an impartation at his funeral? I think the Elisha story was never meant to be repeated as there are no other accounts of it in the Bible. The scriptures need to be the foundation in which we base all of our experiences. Chris writes, we are a radical group of revivalists who want to be on the cutting edge of everything God has for us, but it's really important in our zeal for God we don't become spiritually weird. I love it when Jesus' people boldly go where few have dared to tread, yet it's also important that we learn from our mistakes.

I have done and said some pretty stupid things in the name of God over the years. I regret every one of them. Personally, I think we should take flowers to the graves of our loved ones, pay our respects, and leave it at that. That's your colleague, Chris.

So, Bill, I apologize for having to ask some of the questions, but they come up so much. And I want to remove any misunderstanding so people can find out what you really have to say.

So, do you endorse, preach, teach, encourage the practice of going to the graves of deceased men and women of God to try to suck the anointing out of the earth?

Okay. Absolutely not. We don't goodness, we don't talk to the dead, we don't look for impartation from the dead, we don't worship the dead. But I I will go to you know, I've gone to Charles Finney's gravesite and I'll pray, God do in our in our country what you did through him. And I'll I'll use it as a point of faith to I I feel like we are supposed to honor I don't know that they need to go to our gravesite but Uh I have gone.

I've gone to Evan Roberts and I've prayed there, God, do what you did in Wales, do it again, release it all over the earth.

So I use it as a point of reminder of how God used somebody in the past, but not to receive from them, but just as a. just you know, it's just uh like l like a postcard or something to remind you of some other place. And so I I I do, I pray into it and I say, God, please release that again. And we're we're actually uh building a a library museum with various artifacts from past revivals. Not to go backwards.

But just to try to give honor, I I really felt like the Lord put it on my heart several years ago that if we had honor the moods of God from the past, He would release those same anointings again. That's just my personal conviction.

So So we don't we don't worship, we don't you know, we don't do any of that that nonsense, but But I really do want to give honor. I want to give honor to Evan Roberts for you know, that young man who didn't have a lot of training, but he just had bold faith. I want to honor Finney for his bold preaching. John G. Lake for his incredible understanding of the kingdom and And so, you know, all these people, I have great admiration, even the ones that.

that fail, to be honest with you, even the ones that you know, the the God treats Solomon kindly in Scripture, but he also treats very honestly about how things ended. And I it I God isn't ashamed to report the good and the bad, and I I want to make sure that I honor Solomon And David. and the ones uh in recent days, you know, that lived well and those who who ended poorly. I s I still want to honor God's touch on their lives. Mm.

Yeah, and you can learn a lot from them, from the mistakes they made. and from the things that they did rightly. I remember being in Connecticut in 1989. I was finishing my first book on revival. And they brought me to a stone.

Which represented where the church building was, where Jonathan Edwards preached Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, I think 1741. And there was just an inscription on the stone, and you better believe it moved me. I mean, first, all there was left was a stone, you know, New England was pretty dry spiritually. But it stirred me. It stirred me to be there.

It stirred me to pray, to remember.

So I'm 100% for doing that. If I get to go down to the graveside of David Wilkerson or Leonard Ravenhill, men I was close with, it stirs you, the memory of their lives. But of course, you don't get on the grave and try to suck an anointing. That's so good.

So we put that to rest officially. Thank you. Yeah, in fact, let me just get a couple of quick ones out of the way. Then we can just focus on the positive message. There's a clip.

I only heard the short part of it from Eric Johnson, I believe, at Bethel, basically saying that human beings are born good as if there's no fall, as if we don't have a s a sinful nature, that we're fundamentally good.

Now, it's just a limited clip. I didn't hear the whole message. But what do you believe about human nature outside of God's redemption? Oh no, that's my son. actually, that Eric Johnson is my son.

No, people are born with a sinned nature and we need forgiveness, we need deliverance and He believes that. We all believe that. He he was just He was emphasizing an approach to people Where we honor the fact that people are made in God's image. It doesn't mean they don't have sin to repent of, it just changes our approach to people. and how we value them, how we Uh we have found that by by celebrating you know, that that touch of God on people's lives sometimes even before they're saved, it it It warms them up to the gospel so powerfully.

You know, you see Paul, you know, most excellent Felix, you know, and statements like this, where there would be this moment of honor. And that's all we're trying to do. And we're just one big experiment. And some things we do really good, and some things we don't. That's all we're really trying to do is just represent the kindness of God.

not ignore the sin issue, will never ignore the sin issue. 'Cause that's it's critical that people know they must repent and And, you know, we we have reputation of never preaching that, but it's not true. An anyone who's been here any length of time. you know, we may not hit the same message every Sunday, but we But we work pretty hard at getting people to turn from their lifestyle of sin to follow Jesus wholeheartedly. Yeah, and the fact that.

Yeah, the fact you recognize people born with a sinful nature, that's the big thing. And again, it's a little clip, and But if there's anyone on the planet sensitive to things that can be taken out of context or misrepresented, it's me, because part of the Browns were revival. You know, we watched that day and night for years. In fact, I often said you can have controversy without revival, but you can't have revival without controversy. And then sometimes the things are misstated or done wrong, and you fix them and correct them.

But one of my colleagues was just at a TV recording where you were talking about your new book, and he came back saying, Wow, Bill Johnson really preaches holiness. And he's like one of these old-time gods preaches holiness and repentance. And again, your whole emphasis on the love of God, the goodness of God, and how the church can often beat people over the head with the Bible.

So you're obviously. Working against that and are going to state the other side of things. All right. I actually have one last question I've got to ask. But, Bill, I really appreciate you coming on and saying, go ahead and ask these.

And I want to talk, spend the rest of your time after my last question, talking about your book, God is Good.

So you can find out about his new book. It's available everywhere. God is Good. He's Better Than You Think by Pastor Bill. Johnson.

I we will be right back. Back. All right, we are back. This is Michael Brown. I'm speaking with Pastor Bill Johnson, his new book.

God is good. I asked Bill if he'd come on the air, talk about the book, but allow me to ask questions that have come my way. Things that have been sent to me, people attacking Pastor Johnson or sending me clips. What about this? What about that?

So I said, hey, let's talk about your book. Let's let people get to know who you are. And then we'll. We'll ask these questions. He said, great.

Let's do it.

So, so, Bill, this is my last one. Unless someone calls in, this is my last question. I mean, I could go on with a few more, but these are the ones that come up kind of repeatedly.

So, another family member, Jen Johnson, she's talking, and she's describing the Holy Spirit and likens the Holy Spirit to a sneaky blue genie.

Now, obviously, to people who don't know you, that's going to further confirm that you guys are weird and into all this, you know, spiritual orbs and communicating with angels, and the Holy Spirit's like a sneaky blue genie.

Now, again, you don't have to necessarily defend or explain what she said, but if you think you know what she meant, maybe you could explain it.

Well, I you know, first of all, I'm not going to defend because that's language I wouldn't use. Um She being uh sneaky. And uh and he is, he is mysterious and uh and I think that's accurate. I wouldn't use that terminology and she doesn't use it anymore, she hasn't for years because While it was honest on her part to do it. try to explain what she was experiencing with God, which is very, very real and genuine.

the language that was used, uh, she would never use again because it it It crossed. such controversy. in a wrong sense. We don't mind controversy, but But uh in in a way that might misrepresent the Lord. And uh she doesn't want to do that.

I I don't want to do that.

So but she yeah, she's used descriptions like that, for sure. I've seen them. And um Um and and have had good conversation with her about it. And when I actually talked with her, uh, just a couple of years ago, Uh she said, Yeah. She said, I used I quit using that analogy uh, I don't know, four or five years earlier and so something like that.

So yeah, that's that's true. We've we have sometimes in our uh somewhat humorous culture have have crossed a line although I think mostly it's well intended. In fact, in her case, I know it is. Um, s sometimes we just, you know, we we just didn't do as good as we thought we we did. And that would be one of the occasions.

Hey, listen, I appreciate your honesty in that, and I appreciate the fact that Jen realizes it was counterproductive to speak in those ways and could easily be. Misunderstood. Again, it's language I wouldn't use because I feel it would misrepresent the spirit. But again, when you also think. how many tens of thousands of hours of teaching and preaching and sharing and talking there are that have come out of Bethel.

And that are on YouTube, that are on video. The fact that people don't have a thousand clips to play also says something. All right, listen, this is a short segment, but we'll be right back. And I want you to give me an overview. of God is good when we come back.

And then the question What do you mean when you say he's always in a good mood? I know that's an important value to you. Bill, thank you for humility, for your candor, for being so forthright with my listeners. It means a lot to us. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. By the way, if you're wondering what folks believe at Bethel Church, just go to the website and check out what we believe. And there it is laid out plainly and clearly for all to see.

My guest, Pastor Bill Johnson, author of the new book, God is Good. Bill, you work hard on getting this out. You've written a number of books, they're bestsellers, they've gone around the world. You work really hard on this. Why are you so burdened to get this message out?

Well, to be Honest, I I uh after my dad died, I had a continuing encounter with the Lord. Um about his goodness. And I've learned more in my disappointment and loss about his goodness than that. in any season of great breakthrough. And I was in a pastor's prayer meeting Um Some years ago, and I felt like the Lord just spoke to me actually very, very clearly, internal, audible voice.

kind of thing where he just said, I want you to write about my goodness And I had never had him give me a direction like that before. He's always You know, if I have a a burden in my heart to write about something, I seek him about it and he'll confirm it. You know, he'll give me a direction in the process. But this time he actually brought it up. I'd never had that happen before, so I I I began to just ponder what I could write about.

You know, as it is, uh probably all books are incomplete, but You know, I live with the awareness that this is just barely scratching the surface on every possible area. but it's at least an introduction from my perspective of what the goodness of God looks like. But I wrote it 'cause I I really felt strong he he required that of me.

Now, in the book, you talk about the purpose of the Old Testament. The old has a new purpose. We talk about what goes through the cross unchanged, what changes. As a Jewish believer in Jesus, maybe I've paid more attention to the Old Testament and some have written commentaries on some parts of the Old Testament, and yet I recognize. That it's often misunderstood or seen to be in some kind of conflict with the New Testament, or the God of the Old Testament, who's the Father of the Lord Jesus, is somehow seen in conflict with the God of the New Testament.

So, how do you sort that out in your book? Um I don't know. be honest with you, I love the whole of Scripture. I love the Old Testament. I love seeing.

the context in which the new Covenant was made. I don't abolish any of it. I value all of it. But the example I follow, you know, to be real, practical for me is just to follow the example that Jesus gave. You know, he would say, You've heard it said, but I say unto you, And I I don't think that gives us license to ignore because the You know, Paul said these things were written.

beforehand for our instructions. I believe they have great, great merit force and they're the root system I you know, the way I look at it for the for the New New Testament. But But I I look to Jesus and the example, what he taught and what he lived, what he practiced, how he viewed issues and problems. You know, in the Old Testament you were contaminated by touching a leper. But Jesus touches the leper and the leper is cleansed.

And so things are dramatically different. Not not because the Old Testament was wrong. but because it was needed to set the context for for who this Father is, what he's like, because that's what Jesus came to reveal. And so I I I studied both and, uh, But I really pursue hard to follow the example that Jesus gave the best I know how. If we follow the example of Jesus, What attitude should we have towards sickness and disease.

No, I think we should hate it. You know, it it uh I I can I consider that uh healing is in the atonement. That's my personal belief. And that uh if that's the case, then the suffering that he did the beating All of that was to pay for the afflictions that we get in our body. And, uh, that had to be one of the most Horrendous Moments in human history was to have Jesus, the Son of Man, the Son of God, endure such such pain and such torment.

But he he did that.

so that we could be free. and we we do no honour to him. by embracing a lifestyle of affliction when he actually you know, paid to rid us of that.

So, I I think we're supposed to hate what he hates, love what he loves. And he hates affliction. Does that mean if I'm sick that there's something wrong with me? No. No.

Oh, except that you're sick. Right, right. It doesn't mean, you know, it's a tragic. conclusion that many come to that a perception of There's hidden sin.

something. Yeah. Yeah. life. is that every time there's a problem to just assume that I did something wrong.

I I I can't live that kind of a burden, and we won't put that on anyone. And if I find any of our team has ever done that, they they are immediately corrected because that's we stand in great opposition to that approach. In fact, If I find any of our team says to somebody, well, you weren't healed because you don't have faith. They are corrected immediately. That approach is just not tolerated.

We really live to love and honor people. but to also bring them into a place of faith and courage for the miracle. But we don't blame the person. ever and we don't You know, sometimes the Lord will point out a hidden sin. I've had him do that, you know.

Where I'm praying for somebody, there's no breakthrough, and then something will drop into my heart.

So I'll just ask him a question. I don't ever. You know, I don't ever say no saith the Lord or the Lord showed me there's hidden sin. I just ask him questions. And oftentimes they'll just go, Oh, yeah, yeah, that happened that Yeah, I said, well, how about we pray over that?

Let's let's repent for that. Let's confess that to the Lord. and they'll just pray with me and then they get healed.

So it's it's uh But I th that's not my default. I don't look for a problem. I don't look for for a sin. But if it's there, of course, I'm just gonna In grace, lead them into a place of repentance.

So, when we see in the New Testament that Jesus gave his disciples authority over demons and disease, And we often see driving out demons brings healing to people. And then Acts 10:38, where Peter explains how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and he healed all that were sick and that were under the power, oppressed by the devil.

So it would put demons and disease in that same category of something negative that is attacking, that is afflicting, that is diminishing and demeaning. Yet we know godly people that are sick.

Some of the godliest people we know are sick and haven't been healed in this world.

So we're not saying. That the people aren't holy or godly or love the Lord, or that we can't learn from being sick, but that the thing itself is in the bad, the evil, the destructive category, and that Jesus came to liberate us from that. Yeah, it no, that's exactly right. And it and it doesn't mean anybody who's sick is is, you know, has a demon or something. I mean, right.

We don't We we don't we don't approach it in that way. We just approach approach it as an opportunity to love and to serve people. and to and to get people free. And uh no excuses. Um.

you know, it's just the privilege to to try to do. What Jesus would do, and that was in every case we see every person that came to him, and every person the Father directed him to. He he brought healing and deliverance to their life. And so that's really what we try to do, and we're learning. We don't we don't have it down by any means.

You know, we we still have people within our own team that are suffering with this or with that and And we just love them well and serve them well and and continue to pray for breakthrough. And then again, Jesus said, if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.

So, in that sense, He is the will of God. In action. And I came to these same conclusions just through intensive study of the word in the original languages and saying, God, if I never see anyone healed, I have to believe this because it's what you say. In fact, it's consistent through the whole Bible and it comes into its fullness in the New Testament. Can you give me an example or two of something that you've seen that was just astounding?

A healing that Jesus brought to the glory of the Father? You mean like through us, things that we've seen here? Yeah, yeah, see with your own eyes. Yeah. Uh wait.

There was just a book written about one of them, in fact a movie, uh a young uh a family from Norway. Brought their son, who was in a wheelchair. His muscles were deteriorating. He was dying. He could not eat.

They fed him interveneously. At night, he had Something like three hundred kilos or something of medical supplies that had to come with him. when they decided to fly out here to Reading. And um and that the doctor, you know, they weren't certain that he could survive the trip. but they wanted to do one more thing as a family.

Uh as a you know, as a family before he died, but they were hoping he'd be healed. They came out here He was just miraculously healed. He it's it's such a dramatic story. They were sitting down at Olive Garden. and uh he's in his wheelchair and and uh they would give him little piece of food like a breadstick or something 'cause he enjoyed the smell.

And so they're sitting there talking with their friends and And the young boy says, Can I have another breadstick? and they say, What did you do with the last one? They said I ate it and they were absolutely shocked because that meant hospital. And uh and he was absolutely, totally, dramatically healed. He's now riding his bike and skiing and doing all the things that were impossible.

I mean he was He was absolutely dying and disappearing, and the Lord healed him. And uh It was it's just extraordinary. It's a great story. They made a movie in Norway about it. They just released a book here in in America about the story, but it's it's really And in fact, I tell you what I like so much about the story is not only was he healed.

Not only did the parents show great courage, But the way they handle the testimony among those who are not healed yet is just brilliant.

So incredible. That's wonderful. That's amazing. All right, got a few more minutes with Bill Johnson, his brand new book, God is Good, He's Better Than You Think. God of light, hear our cry, send the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. And I just want to say one quick word to folks that may be.

Critics of the charismatic movement, or critical of me for being charismatic, or critical specifically of my guests, Bill Johnson and Bethel. And you might say, well, you didn't grill them enough. Hey. I ask specific questions folks ask me to ask. That's number one.

And number two, I posted on Facebook, we got 400. 30-something thousand people on Facebook posted on Twitter and said, if you have a question for Pastor Bill Johnson, here's where he's going to be on. Come on.

So I I absolutely want to ask honest questions and dispel rumors and clarify things because I want you to hear what what my friend and colleague has to say. But the purpose of bringing him on the air was not to attack him for an hour.

Someone had a question you wanted to raise, you didn't raise, don't blame me. The phone lines were available, and we got other calls. We didn't take them because they were just completely irrelevant to the subject.

So, just want to make that clear. Hey, hey, Bill, thanks again. I know you're busy to take a whole hour to join us on the air. I want to talk about one last concept. I know it's an important value of your church to say that.

God is always in a good mood. And I want you to explain that because. I uh and we we may totally agree or not, that's not even that's not material at all, but um. I've heard it taught by some, not from you, but from other camps, that the kingdom of God, it's always a party and it's always party time in heaven.

So I've asked, well, was God the good mood when he wiped out the earth in Noah's day? Was God the good mood as Jesus is weeping over Jerusalem and so on, or when he's pouring out wrath on the earth in the book of Revelation? And when I say that, if you mean that he's always the same, he's always kind, he's always full of love, he's always consistent, he's not like an alcoholic father who beats you one day and hugs you the next, he's not schizophrenic, of course I affirm that. If you mean there's nothing we could do that grieve him or that he's never angry, Then I differ with it.

So, this is an important fundamental value for Bethel.

So, let me get it out of the horse's mouth. What exactly do you mean when you say God's always in a good mood? No, I I mean what you just said. I mean obviously he's grieved over things. He he has pain over you know, when we sin, when we violate his nature, when we you know, unbelief, when we misrepresent him, all those things cause grief.

But he's not he's not schizophrenic. He he really genuinely loves us constantly. And w what I you know, it it's it's a lighthearted comment and uh and sometimes that's I take risk when I do that because I can be misunderstood so easily. But I'll make a statement like, you know, God is in a good mood. I said.

it doesn't mean he's happy about everything, but he's happy with me and and uh and I'll just make that that kind of a comment that You know, he's not he's not mad at me. And um You know, you just spend time with the Lord and you go before Him. And I pray like you, God, if there's things in my life that are out of order, please point them out to me. Give me the slap of a friend. Point it out in your word.

Do something because I don't want to displease you in any way. But until he does that, I'm going to assume that all is well because I I live as an open book before him and before the people that I'm accountable to. And that approach has helped me. It's helped me to not start off negative and have to somehow work my way into a a positive approach to God. to really believe that I am acceptable to him the way I am.

uh not that nothing should change but that He genuinely has affection for me right now. And somehow that gives me the courage. To really deal with things that he'll point out is the fact that he really does. enjoy me and and that's that's new that's new territory for me. And so that's kind of how we express it in And it's in the context of our life together as a church family that that's illustrated.

Yeah, and you know some people their default mentality is God's not happy with me. It's hanging over my head all the time. I'm not good enough. I don't pray enough. I don't try hard enough.

I don't love God enough. I don't love my neighbor enough. And they live with kind of this constant gloom. It's like the sky is always dark, and you're just waiting for something to, you know, go wrong and blue it again. And it's a miserable way to live.

It's not. Consistent with the scripture. We're talking about for someone who really wants to please the Lord and live for God, not for a rebel. It's not who God is, and it's absolutely the wrong way to get free and to live a holy life because it just, you never have the encouragement to move forward. But when you start with, look, he sent his son to die for us.

We've responded to the core of my being. I want to please God. I want to live for God. If there's anything not right, show me. Yeah, just like with our kids and grandkids, the default is they're loved by their dad.

They're loved by their granddad. He wants to be with them, wants to spend time with them. And if there's a problem, he'll tell them, as opposed to, oh no, what did I do wrong today? Exactly. That's exactly right.

I'm really familiar with that approach. I was never taught that, but somehow I I picked it up, I was hungry for God, I wanted to see revival, and I just I became introspective. I became so self-critical and condemning and figured that if certain things weren't happening it's because something was wrong and And I just had to be set free from that and finally discovered that he's a good father. And I I just will never go back to that way of thinking or living. It was just killing me.

And uh and the good things that I've seen happen in recent years have come out of that approach to God as a perfect Father. Yeah, and you know, even when I dealt with extremes of what I call the hypergrace camp, I realized how many people live the way you lived. I've just never lived like that. There's one short time in my believing life I have, but over 45 years, it's hardly never been who I was. And David Wilkerson years back had to remind me: a lot of people struggle with condemnation.

A lot of believers are very sensitive and introspective.

So even in our school, the first semester, we really try to bathe them in that, the love of God, the goodness of the Father, that foundation, because we're going to call them, lay down your lives for the gospel, give your lives for a dying world. But we want them to do it not out of a sense of, I'm trying to get God's favor, but because I have his favor, I just want to live for him. Yeah. That's well said. That's exactly right.

And Bill, last thing, we're almost out of time, but... You are seeing multi-generational blessing from parents, grandparents now to kids, grandkids. Can you give us in a minute a key to passing this on to the next generation? Oh, goodness. in raising our kids, we just we kept them exposed to Miracles to the supernatural move of God.

We kept them exposed to world need. We take them to the dumps and feed people. We kept them exposed to community, to believers sacrificially loving one another. And and then we just made sure that, you know, my kids had to pay a price for who who I was as a pastor. you know, they're all grown now, but uh they had to pay a price, so I couldn't control the price they paid, but I could control the reward they received.

So I made sure that the reward they received for being my child was greater than the price they ever had to pay. And now all three are involved in ministry here, and they have genuine love for God. They stand on their own right in ministry. Belpha Music is headed up by my son Brian. And they're writing very, very powerful, uh, redemptive songs on the cross and the resurrection and the blood.

And Eric is the senior pastor of the local church. My daughter and her husband lead our second-year school of ministry, which is about 700 students. We're just really proud of them and thankful. But uh We we found that if we could if we just put our family first, And I figured that they are the first church I pastor, and if I'm successful there, I'm positioned to serve elsewhere. Incredible.

Hey, Bill, we're out of time. Thanks for joining us so much on the line of fire. God bless you, man. Great honor. Bless you.

All right. God bless you. The message, the book. God is good. You know, looking at the presidential politics all around us, it looks like the world's going crazy.

We're going to step back and get God's perspective today. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Well, thank you for joining us today on the line of fire. Remember to call 866-348-7884.

A little bit later in the broadcast, I'm going to dive in with more thoughts about presidential politics. But I I don't remember. ever seeing anything as messy and crazy. as what we're seeing now. And with discussions about lewd sexual things.

Having to do With One of the candidates with the husband, former president, the husband of the other candidate. And now even accusations about our current president. I I I mean it's like tabloid gossip. Nonsense. What in the world?

But I think it's just a picture of the times, a picture of the larger culture. These elections seem to be a reflection of the decadence and craziness and divisiveness. of our contemporary American culture.

So, I want to do my best to give you some perspectives on that, as well as to take your calls as well. 866-348-787. 884 number to call, and I've got a couple of questions. that I will be asking you. As well.

And then we're going to focus again on Jerusalem. I want to talk to you about the covenant and controversy. Video that is brand new and powerful about the city of the great king Jerusalem. Gonna have a guest on from Iraq in a moment, from Kurdistan, northern Iraq. We'll talk about that.

But I I went uh I I went to a conservative website. the other day And it was, like I said, just kind of tabloid trash sensationalism and one thing after another. Not that it was all false. One scandal after another, and this problem with the Clintons, and this problem with Obama, and kind of downplaying some of the stuff with Trump. And then I went to a really liberal website And it was the exact same thing, except all out on Trump.

I mean, it was just as tabloid, just as trashy, just as. Just as Cornel? And I thought, this is absolutely Wild. And and then then I see this other crazy right-wing website. I wouldn't even call it conservative, just crazy right-wing website.

And and there, what do what do I find there? This article, the article was sent to me, so I went to the website to read it. Who's responsible? for leaking The videotape with Donald Trump's vulgar comments that have gotten him in such trouble. Comments from 2005.

Who's responsible. Who do you think did it? You ready? The Jews. The Jews leaked the tape.

Oh, I kid you not. I kid you not. This was the accusation that you you heard just about everything. This is kind of like an absolute circus.

So we as the people of God Must not. Cannot Get caught up with this. It is essential. That we do not get caught up with this, and that we instead have a kingdom mentality. that we instead have a mentality where we bring God's values on the scene.

God's values to the elections to our society. rather than just getting caught up. in the most bizarre carnal political campaign. I can remember. We'll be right back.

We're going to go straight to Air Rock. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire 866-34Truth. We've been featuring this week a brand new movie, City of the Great King, part of the Covenant and Controversy series. I appear on this movie as well, this documentary. We've got a great resource offer where we've packaged it together with two other important resources.

To find out more, go to thelineoffire.org. I am joined now by Stephanie Quick. She's a filmmaker, writer, producer, and photographer working with FIA. FAI Studios and Pilgrim Media while living in Kurdistan, which is in northern Iraq. She's the developer of the Covenant and Controversy film series and manages its online resource library.

Stephanie, welcome to the line of fire from Iraq. Thank you very much. Um I'm actually I'm in the States right now on the on the screening tour uh promoting the film.

So Happy to be States guys. Thanks for hosting me. Oh, sure thing.

Well, we spoke with Dalton Thomas from Iraq earlier in the week. In fact, it was an amazingly good connection. It sounded like he was right next door. But you're in the States. Let me ask first, what is it that brought you over to Iraq?

Uh well some FAI is first and foremost the missions organization. We want to. you know, Romans 15, 20, declare the name of Jesus for he's not been known. The convictions for that are in. I think as Paul said, I'm in Romans chains for the hope of Israel.

And so we were praying and asking the Lord where we could base and effectively you know, what's up for him to open a door so we can engage the refugee crisis. Um You know, live in a conflict zone, declare the words and beauty of Jesus, and He opened the door in. Northern Iraq.

So That's the Mm-hmm. We walked through it, I guess. And when you say we, who is we? FAI.

So uh i if you In the film You know, our core writing team is myself, Stalton Thomas, and Michael Reynolds. All of us are featured. in the film and we're part of a a larger team. We have a a dozen or so people in our n outpost in northern Iraq, and then we have a couple of other locations throughout the Middle East. Yeah.

So there we have two or three dozen members of FAI throughout the the Muslim world. All right, but did you go over there as a single woman or as a married woman with family? Single woman. Got it.

So, talk to us about that for a moment. I want to talk about City of the Great King, but talk to us first about. Going to a place like this, I mean, you're in the midst of Of war and conflict, it's not that far from you. ISIS hasn't been that far away. The Syrian refugees pouring in hasn't been that far away.

How do you feel about doing that as a single woman? Um It is a uh I've never been in this kind of situation before, and every day that I wake up there, you know, like to to pray through the psalms and and lines like w as though a thousand may encamp against me or armies may rise or you know The idea of wars or rumors of wars, those things mean very different things to me now. But I live with Dalton and his wife and their kids, and we have a couple of other families in in the area.

So I am. I would not go over there apart from being in another household and having that kind of covering. for that kind of culture. Uh So, I've been very blessed in that regard. I have a really strong team.

I've known them for several years now, a better part of a decade.

So, for me, it's like. I I don't have my own husband, I don't have my own kids, but I do have family that I've gone over there with.

So Um I you know, we we like to say it's not necessarily where you go, but who you go with, and I and I have I found that to be true. Got it.

Yeah, so obviously there is a certain sense of security being with family, being with a team. On the other hand, it's a volatile part of the world, and it takes courage and it takes a calling of God to do it.

So let's move over now. You're in. in Iraq. you're in the midst of civil war and upheaval. You're surrounded by Muslim refugees and other refugees.

And yet your heart is beating in the midst of all this for Israel. And for Jerusalem, why is this so important for you where you are? and for the church worldwide.

Well, I I You know, I read Paul's letter to the Romans and he begins by saying I am under obligation to preach the gospel. He had a unique calling and assignment to the Gentile world, but he said this is for the Jew first and then for the Gentile and then he closes that letter saying, you know, Romans fifteen, twenty, I make it my ambition. The preach his name or he's never been named. Lest I build on another man's foundation.

So he'd pour the cement and then hand it off to somebody like Timothy, who would then put up walls and and put a roof over it. In the middle of that, you know, he has this mountaintop climax of Romans 9:10, and 11. He says, this is. anchored in God's covenantal commitment to Abraham and his children. If he doesn't keep those, then the nations of the earth will not all be blessed through Abraham and And so I he says in Acts, you know, he's in he says, I'm I'm in these Roman chains.

for the hope of Israel. And I think you know, the the greatest news that I could say to A A Syrian or a Kurd or an Iraqi is, the Son of David will rule and reign from the holy hill of Zion. You know, if that's not true, then we should all eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. But it is true and it has Um End of the Incredible consequences for all of our lives, and we are to bow the knee and kiss the sun.

So I I I Yeah. You know, the the missions movement, the mission stream. And Fulfilling the great commission, it has, I think, it has to be anchored in. The uh Revelation of the Son of God, the Son of David. In the holy city or Frankly, I don't think it's a biblical messiology.

Got it.

Right, so it's that basic, that's fundamental. And, Stephanie, what about? This new movie, City of the Great King. What are you hoping to accomplish? What are you hoping will happen to your viewers of this movie?

I we are hoping that this film and and the Film series. This is the second installment in a five-part series, and we're very grateful for your contributions. this film in the in the last installment. Um we are Hoping to provide clarity. You know, I've had I'm 30 years old.

I grew up in America. I grew up in the church. Many Peers who would say, We know Israel is significant, but we don't really understand why. Adolph Zaphir, who was a contemporary of Charles Spurgeon in England. He he said, There can be no true and full preaching of the gospel without explaining the mystery of Israel.

And Poser, you know, he starts his treatise, The Knowledge of the Holy, by saying that the What comes into your mind when you think about God is the most important thing about you. And I think if we're going to know God rightly, Without entertaining idolatrous thoughts unwittingly in biblical ignorance, we have to understand. You know, I agree with Sapir, the the mystery of Israel.

So we are hoping that this film series will be. A um Clear. Presentation. of that mystery of Israel and and also a beautiful alternative to what is a contentious Debate and sometimes an argument, even within the body, over what God's plans and purposes are. Yeah.

And within Israel, Jerusalem. The city of great controversy. The city of the great king, as the movie refers to it. Is there something in your mind unique about Jerusalem of all cities on the earth? Absolutely.

which would simply be that the Lord elected that city. For his son to to sit on and rule the nation.

So Um you know, as My colleague Mike in the film makes this comment. He says, Jesus is beautiful with or without Jerusalem, but Jerusalem has consequence because Jesus. decided that it has consequences. He has history there. That was the city of his passion.

That is the city of his return. And the Jerusalem is like the setting for the diamond that is Jesus. And it It is. Um you know as as a It's the best way for the Lord to reveal is magnificent. Dynamic glory and wisdom.

Um and and I think there's much about God to be discovered through Jerusalem in a way that is not true of any other city on the earth. Yeah, and there's something when you travel there. I've been around the world, not everywhere around the world, but many, many different nations and many, many major cities. And I have a great love for the nations, great appreciation for what God's doing in the nations, and yet. There's something unique when I go to Jerusalem.

Something unique happens that stirs my heart. that impacts me That calls me. You want to leave everything and just live there and pray and share the gospel. And obviously, you want to capture that on City of the Great King. On the movie, is there much footage from Israel, from Jerusalem itself?

There is We I I would say nine. uh trip to Israel that we took. The spring, the bulk of it being in Jerusalem and then also in Hebron, but we only filmed at sunrise and sunset, so we only have.

soft lighting and um We we wanted our cinematography to be unlike other films and projects about Israel that we've seen.

So we would try to find Angles that most people don't often film from. We had a A certified pilot come over and fly a drone.

So we have just incredible aerial cinematography that I'm I'm really proud of. Awesome. Hey, Stephanie, I appreciate the insider information. Everybody, go to thelineoffire.org, order your copy of the city of the Great King. You can download it, start watching it.

today. Change the world It's fire we want for fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. All right, we're back on the line of fire. 866-34-TRUTH. I do really want to encourage you to check out City of the Great King. Go to my website, thelineoffire.org.

And while you're there, you'll see my latest articles, my latest videos. Go there and And then check out We've got a video about this. It's a powerful DVD, and we've got it packaged together with an important talk I did about Israel today as Israel and Evo Occupier. And then also some of these interviews we've done with folks that are part of City of the Great King.

So we've packaged it all together. It's a great resource offer. You'll benefit by it. Your friends will benefit by it. And you'll really enjoy watching these as well.

So that's all at thelineofire.org.

Okay. We're back to presidential politics. Do I want to play a clip here? Grab clip number 12. There's a little echo on it.

It's President Obama. He's speaking about Donald Trump. Let's listen to clip number 12. Then I've got a question for everybody out there. If somebody does something terrible or shows themselves to be unqualified for all of them.

I can't forgive them. I suppose if they're sincere about... About it. I don't want to necessarily leave the country. Hey!

Huh?

So You can't have it both ways then. You can't repeatedly denounce. What is said by someone And then say, but I'm still going to endorse them. To be The most powerful person on the planet. And to put them in charge.

Hey, I've As much as I'm not a fan of a lot of what President Obama says and does, I understand what he's saying and his reservations.

So, here. I know this can get volatile. And almost nothing we talk about these days that's more volatile. But if you Our follower of Jesus, you consider yourself to be a follower of Jesus. committed the lever.

And you are voting for Donald Trump. I want you to tell me. How you can vote for Donald Trump given The very clear moral failings and moral flaws. Wouldn't he embarrass the nation? Couldn't he say something, do something?

that alienates our allies, that makes America look bad. Maybe in his volatility, he'll go back on everything we promised. If you're an evangelical, And you Plan to vote for Donald Trump. Tell me why. Tell our listeners why 866.

348-7884. Conversely, If you're a follower of Jesus. And I said evangelical. I understand you can be a follower of Jesus and not be evangelical. But if you're a follower of Jesus, And you cannot vote for Donald Trump.

Tell me why A vote for Donald Trump is is the only way That we can have the possibility of getting solid Supreme Court justices in. And that could affect the nation for the next generation or two. And a vote for Donald Trump means a vote against The radical pro-homosexual policies of Hillary Clinton, radical pro-abortion policies of Hillary Clinton. And we know Uh Donald Trump's Failures, flaws, they're pretty much shot it out for the world to see. On the flip side, the massive corruption associated with the Clintons.

and things seem to be downright illegal associated with the Clintons. Uh If you don't vote for Donald Trump, then in effect, you're making it easier for Hillary Clinton to get in.

So I want you to call. And if you're a follower of Jesus... You don't have to explain that part. We're we're taking that for granted, okay? But explain why you can justify your vote.

you can justify your vote. Either way. voting for him or not voting for him. Uh I think the question is clear enough. And I know again how volatile this is.

So, this is my specific question. I'm not asking for larger. thoughts and comments about the elections. I'm asking for larger reflections and spiritual insights with the elections. I'm asking specifically.

Specifically If you are a follower of Jesus, how can you justify voting for Donald Trump? How can you justify not voting for Donald Trump? And I'll go straight to the phones to get this started. We'll start in Princeton, Illinois. Sandra, Sandra, may I first say that I didn't know there was a Princeton in Illinois.

How big is that? Um It's about six thousand people.

Okay, well, forgive my ignorance of that. Thanks for calling into the line of fire.

So, either voting for or not voting for Donald Trump. Uh what's your reasoning?

Okay. Well basically, I want to preface a little bit by saying Um really not voting for or any particular candidate. I am going to cast my ballot for Trump. simply because not for the person he is. That personality and a personality train character train.

I am voting my vote basically as a cushion. Um to advocate for the unborn. Mm-hmm. I just feel as a Christian, God Last the nation that They're spreading blood like we are. killing innocent children.

We are never ever going to be blessed So therefore Um You know, really, if you think about it, everybody has said things they regret, or can you imagine?

Something that you said 20 years ago coming out 20 years later, and you having to be accountable for every mindless word that comes out of your mouth? Gosh, heaven forbid all of us. I would hate to have to be accountable for every single thing I mindlessly said. Yeah, got it. Yeah, Sandra, I'm just having a little problem hearing on the phone.

I think we heard clearly enough. We just had a little problem with the connection. But yeah, I I may weigh in and give my comment with each call. I may not, but let me say that I fully respect. That You could vote for Donald Trump because you feel that he will be a better friend of the unborn.

I fully respect that. And I could easily be a one-issue voter, and that would be an issue. That would be the issue for me. or one issue that would be the issue for me.

So I respect that. And Do we know for sure that Donald Trump will appoint the Supreme Court justices that he said he would appoint? No, but I I feel he's been very consistent on that. And He's really dugging his heels on that. and promised it So, I think if there's anything I could expect him to do, it's that.

Is it a guarantee? No. But you'd virtually guarantee that Hillary Clinton will not. Appoint pro-life justices. In fact, this was one of her major points.

In the debate Donald Trump wants to appoint justices who would overthrow Roe v. Wade. and overturn the same-sex quote marriage decision. And he didn't deny that. He didn't deny that.

So I respect that. The one thing I'd say about comments from 2005. My issue with those is do they reflect who he is today? And does he show genuine contrition for those comments and genuine repudiation of those comments? Yeah, you'd say the most terrific thing five years ago.

You generally repent of it, renounce it, and show that's not who you are. That's what we're really looking at. All right, we'll be back with more of your calls. Thank you for joining us. Change the world.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRU. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. You're going to be held seriously, seriously to account by God. if you don't vote. You're going to be guilty of murder. You're going to be guilty of an abomination of God.

You're going to be guilty for every baby that's aborted from this election forward. That's Kenneth Copeland saying You're going to be held accountable if you don't vote. That was October 9th. Eagle Mountain Church TV show. And it was a Faith for Our Nation special.

Kenneth Copeland saying if you don't vote, you're going to be held accountable. And I would assume the context is: if you don't vote for Kenneth Cope, for Kenneth Cope, excuse me, if you don't vote for Donald Trump, You'll be held accountable because he's talking about for babies aborted and things like that. Others would say, I can't vote. My conscience doesn't allow me to vote for either candidate. I simply can't.

And others, well, let's find out from you, our listeners. 866-34TRUTH, welcome to the line of fire. 866-348-788. The number to call to join in the conversation today. Here's my simple question.

There are many who say if you're a follower of Jesus, you can't possibly vote for Donald Trump. The man's corrupt, he's vile. He's a ruthless businessman. He's a narcissist. Character matters.

Pride matters. The tongue matters. How can you put someone like him in power? Others say, if you're a follower of Jesus, he's the only choice. You have to vote for him.

Because look at the platform, and he's going to uphold that platform. And look at how evil Hillary Clinton is and what she's going to do. I just want to know from you if you're a follower of Jesus, that's important to you. Why? Or why not?

Are you voting for Donald Trump? Why are you voting for Donald Trump or why are you not? voting for Donald Trump. JJ, grab clip number at 19. I just want to give you a bit more of the context of Kenneth Copeland, and then I want to take as many calls as possible.

I'm not asking for your larger thoughts about the elections. I have several of those I want to give. And let me say this before I play the Copeland quote. What does it say? Of the political scene today when I can't even talk about some of the subjects having to do with the elections on the air.

Because it's not appropriate for Christian radio. I can't even quote some quotes. I can't even. Quote some headlines that I'm seeing. These are too vulgar.

And by the way, this is all around. This goes in all directions. The wild Absolutely wild. But let's listen to the full context or larger context of the Kenneth Culford quote number 19. You sit still, you sit right where you are.

Don't you turn that off saying, well, I ain't going to vote anyway. You're going to be held seriously, seriously to account by God. If you don't vote, And you're going to find that out before this broadcast is over. You're going to be guilty of murder. You're going to be guilty of an abomination of God.

You're going to be guilty for every baby that's aborted from this election forward. And and so you you don't cut out on me right now. In the name of Jesus, amen. I forgive you, sweetheart, but you just stay right there where you are and hear us out. And then you make your own decision.

You can do whatever you want to do. But the scripture says a man's a fool that answers a thing before he hears it.

So you sit there and listen, and if you decide not to vote, then praise God, that's your prerogative, and that's just between you and God. But you need to be hearing this. All right, so that gives it a little bit more of a you might say balanced point there. But look, there are others that say it's a responsibility to vote. And others say I can't before God.

So we come back. Phone lines are jammed. Keep trying to get through. As soon as the phone line opens up, you'll be able to get in. Either way.

Very simple. I'm a follower of Jesus, and I'm voting for Donald Trump for the following reasons. I'm a follower of Jesus, and I can't vote for Donald Trump. For the following reasons. Let's hear what you, my wonderful listening audience, what you have to say.

We'll be right back and go straight to your calls. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Just hope that every Muslim man, woman Whoever have a right to vote Get up and vote and we have to bring And we could intend because we don't want to. That's my hope, that no Trump anymore. That is the voice of Ghazala Khan, mother of slain U.S. Army Captain Humayun Khan. She joined other Muslim American women in endorsing Hillary Clinton for president on Tuesday in an announcement by the American Muslim Women Political Action Committee.

Again, where I stand under no circumstances, no way, shape, size, or form, could I possibly vote for Hillary Clinton? Period. That's a non-negotiable to me. That's a black and white. That's a right and wrong.

That's an ethics. That's a conscience. That's a Christian issue to me. Before God, and I'll share that with you publicly. Donald Trump still has to win my vote.

and earned my vote.

So that remains open on my end. 866-34TRUTH. How about you? And I want to air this out because it seems that there's so much intense conviction on both sides of this issue about voting for Donald Trump or not voting for Donald Trump. That we're not really hearing each other in the body.

So, I want to give you an opportunity. And by the way, I'm just going to take the calls as they come in.

So, I'm not trying to balance it one way or another.

However, they call in. If everyone that calls in says, I'm voting for Donald Trump and here's why, or everyone calls in and says, I'm not voting for Donald Trump and here's why, I'm just taking the calls as they come in: 866-566. 348-7884. Let's start in Flower Mound, Texas. David, you're on the line of fire.

Good afternoon, Doctor Brown. Good afternoon. Wow, here he is. terrible feedback, but um First, I just wanted to say a quick word about I'm a torch bearer and It's Um And I know you've got lots of calls, so I don't want to spend but it's been a blessing, so I just wanted to say that.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much. And I just want to talk just briefly about the spiritual condition as the root of the problem. I I don't know if you're in Familiar with in Revelation chapter 12, it gives a picture of the dragon open its mouth and this blood comes. comes out of its mouth.

And it's designed to take away the woman. And uh I I just see the this The flood of accusation and accusation and bitter judgments, and this ratcheting up of. Bitter rage and anger. And it's affecting everybody, including the Ecclesia. I mean, including leaders in the church.

And um We got to get out of that. You know, the woman was given Uh two wings of an eagle. to lift her up and carry her away to be prepared. in a place that God had prepared for. We've got to we've got to get that.

Otherwise, we're going to get carried away. we're going to get destroyed by this Terrible design of the enemy. to confuse the ecclesia to confuse the church. and to turn it to to consume each other. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and let me just jump in on the heels of that. And thank you for your comment as one of our monthly supporters and team members. We must not allow the spirit of the world to get any further in the church than it is. And it's all over. It is all over.

The level of vitriol and the political spirit and the anger towards one another and the judgment towards one another. I 100% understand. Why some believers say, here's why I'm voting for Donald Trump, despite his deep, obvious flaws. And I 100% understand other believers saying here's where I can't vote for him. I understand both sides.

and to have the level of vitriol and attack and ugliness Toward someone that doesn't share our views, as opposed to saying, Okay, I understand, I respect that, but here's where I differ. We gotta step higher. David, thank you. Thank you for that important word and the graphic imagery. from Revelation.

866-348-7884. We go to Bill in Asheboro, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire. Yeah, hey. Good afternoon.

How are you doing? Doing well, thank you. Yeah, you know, I I struggled about voting. the very beginning, I'm a Republican and bird in it, but I think Okay. With prompt.

And deciding what I was going to do and how to, you know, all the things that he came out with and saying. And all this negative and and his his attitude as a businessman. And I was looking at all this. Struggling with anything. Just hit everybody.

Like a light of fire. And now all this is happening.

So I said, what am I going to do? And uh What came about? It's is realizing that Rationalization of Us is God can take the foolish things of this world and profound the wise. And I began looking for things that truck being so poor. Of what he was saying and reacting, and then I figured it.

That. You know, God's in there. God's in trust. God is our Savior. God is our only hope.

There is no other hope. There's not a hope in mankind. It's hope in God. And we must pray and praise. And I realized that when I heard that Trump got saved, a baby in Christ.

And that gives him a chance. We got to give him a chance. Because let me just say this though. Obviously. You got to give everybody a chance, but you're not going to vote for them to be president.

With the hope that they get saved along the way.

So, why are you willing to vote for Donald Trump today? When he We see the and by the way, I'm not attacking, I just want to understand.

Well why I'm both For him today is because the point that he got saved, not saying it's the best way to go, the worst way, but he made a point to come into the kingdom of God and receive salvation and Do what is right. But so you believe that he's already done that? I know that he's done it because I've talked to people that were there when he got saved. All right. Okay.

Let me just say this, Bill. I know other folks. real close with them, who have spent hours with him. who would not say they know he's safe. And I see no fruit of it.

I see zero evidence. of of a saved man there. Just to weigh in there. Doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for him. But I see zero evidence of a saved person.

from my perspective. The word says, Bring forth fruits worthy of repentance. In other words, the only proof of the new birth is the new life.

So I'm not saying you shouldn't vote for him. But I would very, very deeply question just because someone prayed a prayer. means nothing. It means zero. Zero.

Scripturally, it's zero. does not mean someone truly asks the Lord to save them, forgive them. But anyway, thank you for weighing. I'm just asking folks for their viewpoints. 866-8666.

Three, four, truth. Let's go to Rudy in Enrico, Virginia. Thank you for calling the line of fire. Yeah. Are you doing that?

Doing well, thanks. I'm great. I just want to Really quick, just say I'm only on my email. Um, it has no tell you what, I stay there, Rudy.

Something's wrong with our connection. I cannot make out a word you're saying.

So stay there. Howard's going to come back on in a minute and try to See what the problem is. We seem to be having some problem with our phone lines. Don't know what, but I could not. Make out a word of what you're saying.

So please stay there. And I'll get right back to you.

Okay. Let's go to Sandra in Greensboro. Welcome to the line of fire. Yes. Hi, Doctor Brown.

Uh First of all, I want to say We have all seen and definitely come to short but we've all seen and We have all come from the short. We've all fallen short. Yes, we have. We absolutely have. And we all stand and come to short of the glory of God.

So my whole point is. Both Hillary And down the troll. have seen. But here's the point. I will not vote for Donald Trump.

And he hath shown me. And he has a lot of psychological issues. Not to say that Hillary doesn't. But I know for a fact that Donald Trump does. But more so than that, With Hillary.

There are laws here in the United States. They have given me the liberty to do a lot of things. But because of my belief. And because I am a born believer, I don't take the liberty of those th liberties that I could have. that I do have because I live in the United States.

If There's a law that say, and it is, that you can have an abortion. I don't think that's right, even though I have the liberty in the United States to do it. As a born believer, I I don't think it's right.

So I don't use that liberty. I think when Kane said it, and I think he said it perfectly correctly. that there are a lot of things that we have here in the United States that personally he does not agree with. But upholding the law, he doesn't.

So if Hillary believes that a woman should have the right to have an abortion and And and That's our That's on her. Yeah, tell you what, yeah, I there's a break here. Thank you for weighing in. Of course, I could not vote for Hillary. There'd be blood on my hands if I did, the blood of the unborn.

I could not vote for it. But I respect what you're saying about Donald Trump. I understand your issue. Thank you. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire.

What a joy and privilege it is to be on the air with you. Be sure to check out my latest articles. We posted two more today. One on Pastor Joseph Prince teaching on the Day of Atonement with some great truths, but then some serious misstatements that could lead to error. And then just a little while ago, my article on intravarsity, a major Christian ministry, which is now seeing you can't straddle the fence when it comes to homosexuality.

Read all those, find out more by going to my website. thelineoffire.org and you'll see latest articles and videos and if you click on digital library you'll see all the latest ones from all different places where we Hosts them. All right. Are you voting for Donald Trump, your follower Jesus? If so, why?

If not, why not? Let's go to Taylor in Fort Worth, Texas. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. Hey, thanks for having me, Dr. Brown.

You bet. Uh so I'm a born-again believer um and Uh it's definitely going to be Donald Trump. I know that there there's just so much stuff going on uh in the media. Uh but But I I think uh I just had a few points for you.

So he's he's He's a nationalist. You know, with everything away going.

So. He's for this country. Um, I say he's pro Constitution. I mean he was talking about that on his last debate. Um He's definitely discussed protecting Christians The Second Amendment, which is so important.

You know, that's there for. For tyranny. Of course, we all know that. That's so we can protect ourselves from the government more so than from each other, I think. But uh and then he's also talked about repealing the act.

And uh you probably would know this off the top of your head there, but I don't about repealing the act, it was silencing the pastors. And there's been some speculation on whether that's as good as it sounds, but I know that he was talking about doing that. He's reached out to the Christian community. Um Gosh, uh the And I think he's Maybe been a little harsh on the Muslim. topic in the beginning.

I think you softened on that a little bit. But so you feel though basically and sorry to jump in. I just want to try to get to as many calls as I can. Basically, there are things that are important to you. And even though you see him as an obviously flawed man, you feel He will stand for those things that are important to you: strengthening America, upholding the Constitution.

And you see things going in the wrong direction, and you feel that he stands for these important values.

So that's what you're voting for. Not for a man that's not flawed, but for a man that you think would... do the right things. or the things that are most important to That you believe he's on the right side of those. Hey, Taylor, I respect that.

I understand that. Key thing is: whatever we do, let's do it with our eyes wide open. That's a key thing. But thank you. Thank you for weighing in.

866-34 TRUTH. Let's try again, Rudy in Enrico, Virginia. Hopefully. We're in better shape now. Welcome back.

Hello, can you hear me now, Better? Yeah, loud and clear.

Okay, awesome. Yeah, I'd just like to say I am a Hispanic American, uh, but if you're not strong so know the whole immigration issue doesn't really fit in the morning towards uh uh you know. But either way, going for that, uh, you know, uh, just Donald Trump, 'cause he's he's again been pointed out for a life. I look at him, he's not a really political correct as everybody wants to see, but I feel like he's the turn in that. And I feel like Clinton and all in you know, it's it's easy for her not to show her flaws because she's been politically just corrected in how to not sell them all.

So you you see a lot of more flaws than it's not but I feel like as a successful man as he's been, he's going to run this country and help us better our economy. And then of course, we've had McCrack and Clinton and all of them She's plugging up, you know, the same agenda that Obama has addressed, you know, and of course her you know, everybody knows her thing, and he knows flaws and But uh, and also one last thing to point out, uh, you know, I know I'm not going to say anything, but like in the Bible, you know, men. Show more of uh more of a power in their all and when it comes to like, you know, reigning, you know, being kings and so on.

So Right, so you think that right to leaders, senior leadership or national leadership. Would be better in the hands of a male. It doesn't make you a chauvinist to say that, by the way.

Now, there are some chauvinists that, of course, say that, but I understand that you'd find the major pattern for kings, for world leaders, would be male, but you see. Hilary's failures, the pattern of her failures. Over the years, you believe she'd keep Pointing the country in the wrong direction as President Obama does, and you think Donald Trump is a successful man that could run the country successfully. I appreciate that, I understand it. 866-34Truth.

Remember, I can respect people on either side of this as long as the Spirit's right. In our approaching things. All right. Let's go to Mary in Dunn, North Carolina. Welcome to the line of fire.

Well, thank you for taking my call. First of all, I'm an American. of uh Mexican dissent. And I totally disagree with some of the things that Donald Trump has said. He definitely is a flawed individual, but I think that Hillary Clinton is even more flawed.

And and also the the biggest thing about Trump is that he's pro life. And he would Um be against abortion. And to me, that's the most important issue. of this election. Um Not only is he pro live, I believe he's for for traditional marriage.

And the things that Hillary is for is totally Against God. And I don't even understand how any Christian could possibly vote for Hillary. And knowing that she is Totally for abortion. Not only is she for abortion, she's for late term abortion. And as a strong Christian, also, my husband and I both served in the military.

And we just don't believe that Hillary would defend this country And also defend our families and our women and our children. And I'm very proud. that North Carolina has taken a stand against against the attack last night a bathroom loss. Mm-hmm. Got it.

Hey, I've got it gotta jump in. Thank you for winning in. I understand the reasoning behind it. Let's see if I can grab one more call. Let's go to Carlo and Harrisburg.

Welcome to the Line of Fire. Yes. Thank you. I appreciate what you do, Dr. Brown.

Thank you, sir. I am a yes, I am a Christian. Uh praise God. I am voting for Donald, and it's very simple the way I see it. People that don't vote For him because he has faults, then we need to at least vote against.

Taylor. If you don't cast that vote against Hillary. and she wins. then we will be responsible for what she does. Got it.

I have to jump right in, but I think you said. what needed to be said. On your end there, but we're out of time, so sorry we can't get to the rest of your calls. But can I make this appeal? Have this discussion with your friends.

with your co-workers. but have it with a spirit of grace and honor towards one another. We can certainly learn from each other and then we can agree to differ. Let's do it respectfully. Remember to go to thelineoffire.org, check out our very special resource offer this week.

My bottom line, oh, it's the old saying, we can disagree. We don't have to be disagreeable. Mm.