Interviews with Ex-Gay Janet Boynes and Christian Apologist Greg Koukl

I'm about to speak to a former lesbian some honest questions about God and sexuality. Yeah. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Well, I'll tell you, the news is swirling now. Press conference with President-elect Trump. And I tell you what, let me take you right into that. We've got a special guest that's going to be joining us in a little while, but let me take you right into this press conference. The voice you hear is the voice of a CNN correspondent trying to get a question in at the press conference.

Take a listen. Since you're attacking us, can you give us a question? Mr. President-elect, since you are attacking our news organization, can you give us a chance? You are attacking our news organization.

Mr. President-elect, can you state categorically? Mr. President-elect, can you give us a question? You are attacking us.

Can you give us a question? Don't be afraid of the question. Can you give us a question? Can you stay categorically? You are fake news.

Ooh. To CNN, you are fake news. from the president-elect. Talk about things getting to the point of hysteria. Talk about motives of the heart and attitudes being exposed.

Apparently, a completely bogused report about compromised information on Donald Trump from Russian intelligence put out by BuzzFeed and then by CNN. The New York Times, with all their hostility to Trump, wouldn't even print it. And then intelligence leaks, how did it even get out? According to Donald Trump, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. It's total garbage.

Russia's joined in in saying complete nonsense. Donald Trump has said to CNN would not give the reporter question, you are fake news. Whoa. Talk about things being exposed. Talk about talk about.

Things being put on the table. Talk about the media's hostility, liberal media's hostility towards Donald Trump and what he represents. Talk about Donald Trump's style of I'm not going to deal with you, you're fake. Wow. Friends.

Here's where we stand today. I want to say something redemptive in the midst of this. This is a time to bring the truth to light. This is the time to shout the truth from the rooftops. Whoever has the truth, let it be heard, let it be known.

Whoever has the truth, let it be shouted from the rooftops. Let us not hold back. I wrote an article last night. You are listening to Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. I wrote an article last night after flying back from California.

I was stirred, I was burdened. And my article was On Donald Trump, the Johnson Amendment, and the question of Christian cowardice. Let's say Donald Trump is successful in repealing the Johnson Amendment, which prohibits tax-exempt organizations, religious organizations, from endorsing a political candidate. Let's say that's repealed. Will pastors be any more bold to speak on moral, cultural, and political issues?

I don't think so, because I don't think that's what's held us back. It is other things that have held us back. I encourage you to go to stream.org and read that article and share it with others. You will find it to be a real eye-opener. And if you're a Christian leader, read it.

And if you're with me, I'm shouting the truth from the rooftops. Amen. If you're struggling here, may this article light a fresh fire in you. And even though we are not saying, hey, we're going to follow in the footsteps of Donald Trump and do things his way and his style of communicating. I am saying when you see him stand up to what he feels is wrong.

Then that should encourage you to stand up, but in the spirit of God, that would be a big difference. All right, friends, we come back. I want you to be ready with your. Calls. For Janet Boynes, a woman with an incredible testimony of coming out of sexual brokenness herself.

Maybe, maybe you have a question about your own life, issues in your own life, or someone you know, someone you're close to. You can call anonymously with your questions, 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7884. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

All right, there's obviously so much we could talk about with the Trump press conference, with other things going on in the media today, with the confirmation hearings. It's even sad to see the attacks that came against Senator Jeff Sessions, just all the old racial accusations and things like that without basis, just this whole thing of identity politics and dividing people over these issues. We're not getting into that, but I've commented on so many of these issues. If you'll go to our website, thelineoffire.org, and just look for latest articles and videos, you'll see us commenting on all of these relevant issues. From many, many different angles.

Today, I want to focus on God and sexuality. Truth and Relevance Without Compromise. It is a brand new book. I felt so strongly about it, I wrote the forward to this book, God and Sexuality, Truth and Relevance Without Compromise by Janet Boynes, a woman who has her own powerful testimony, not just of coming out of sexual brokenness, but of coming into a place of tremendous wholeness spiritually and in her entire life. And I remember reading the book thinking, where'd she get this wisdom?

When you hear about her upbringing, when I looked at this, I thought, where did she get so much practical wisdom? And I realized it's a relationship with the Lord, and it must be godly mentors that she had. If you have a question, you're dealing with sexual brokenness in your own life or sexual addictions in your own life. And feel free to call in anonymously. Or if you're dealing with a question with a child and how do you deal with these issues?

And I've got a letter from a pastor. I'm going to read it to Janet in a little while, and we're going to discuss how we would answer this. This is a great day to call. 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7884. Janet, welcome back to the line of fire.

Always good to have you with us. It's always a blessing to be here, Dr. Michael Brown.

Thank you again for having me for the time out to talk about this issue that is so prevalent across our country. Yeah, it absolutely is. And it's the kind of thing that we cannot avoid if we love people because people are dealing with these things. Janet, first, your book's been out not even a month now. What are you hearing from readers?

that they love it. They're so excited that we dedicated a book to families. answering the tough questions, answering the questions that nobody wants to talk about on their platforms. We're dealing with the elephant in the room that no longer can be the elephant in the room.

So we're getting great reviews. Excellent. And Janet, why do you think it is that so few people, even Christian leaders who know these problems exist in their midst, in their congregation, maybe in their own lives or families, why are so many Christian leaders reluctant to tackle difficult sexual subjects? Um, there could be many reasons. I can't speak for All the pastors, but I believe I could speak for some.

One, they don't know how to deal with the issue. They're not that knowledgeable. The Bible says when you or I heard Crefle O'Dollar say one time, when you know better, you do better. But we know how powerful knowledge is. But that's why we work with the books, right?

So they can become knowledgeable, so they can get the information that they need.

so they can work with their their congregations and their churches. The other thing I believe is fear. I believe they're afraid of the gay community. I believe they're afraid of the backlash. I mean, look what just happened to Kim Burrell.

I get it. I mean, you and I get backlash from those in the gay community that don't support our views. Just because we're standing up for righteousness is almost like it's onesided. It's their side, their word and their word is the only way that they can go. But we have a voice, and we have to continue to speak it out.

But I believe fear is a big factor of why the churches aren't speaking out today. Another thing I believe as they're afraid they're going to offend somebody. Offense is a big deal. in our churches. People are always getting offended.

They don't realize that they're just trying to give them information that's going to impact their lives and help them and their family. And the delivery is important too. They're afraid they're going to offend somebody that's in their church that's a homosexual. They're afraid they're going to offend the family member. they're going to leave the church and take their money with them.

Terrible reasons not to preach from Genesis to Revelation, but this is the fact as I know it. Yeah, I I agree with every word you say, and I appreciate you being as charitable as you can be in your response. Janet, should we put the question Or questions surrounding homosexuality in a separate category from other issues of sexual brokenness. Or is this just one problem of of a one part of a larger problem? You know, sin is sin in God's right.

You know what's frustrating for me, even as a person who came out of life a homosexuality, it really bothers me when we separate sin. You can have an apple tree, and you can have every sin listed in the Bible and far beyond. But every sin can be forgiven except homosexuality. That is no different than any other set. And if a family member out there is dealing with a child or spouse, That is struggling with homosexuality, that is still your child.

Until you get a divorce, that is still your spouse. Doesn't mean you have to put up. with the sin. You don't have to allow that into your home. But we still have to love those who are struggling in this area, and that is so important.

What we believe here at Jen and Boyd Ministries is compassion without compromise. We must always show love and respect and compassion to everybody. True compassion does not turn a blind eye to self-destruction behavior or confront. or confronts it. a compassionate approach presents.

the truth and love and offers real help for those struggling with same sex attraction. That's what you try to do, even though you never lived this life, and that's what we try to do as people who live this life, come out and really want to help those who contact our ministry. And w when you speak about your your ministry, Are you continually hearing from people either struggling in these ways or with their family members? Is this something? that is much more prevalent than we might realize.

it's much more prevalent. Than I think the listener can imagine. Even though you have a loved one that's struggling with homosexuality, I I don't think they know across the board those of us who have ministries like mine. Those that are struggling around the country. I was just on.

Andrew Walmack did a half an hour show with me after I spoke at his conference last year, and it just aired on his website. I don't the flood of e mails that are coming in right now they become overwhelming. We are getting tons of emails. that my daughter just told me, you know, they're living a homosexual life, or my son, or my spouse. We are hearing about it on a regular basis because this is what we tackle.

But yes, it's very prevalent, and many family members all over the country are dealing with this. And this is what I personally believe. I believe the enemy is using this to separate families and churches and political parties all over the country. This is what Satan wants to do. He wants people to believe that this is okay in the eyes of God.

ain't nowhere scripturally that says this is okay. Yeah, absolutely. And again, compassion without compromise. That is the Jesus way for sure. Janet, we've got about two and a half minutes before our first break.

But for those who don't know your background and upbringing, just paint the picture of how you were raised and what happened in your life to get you on the wrong path. You know, just real quick, and many people say, well, I didn't have this struggle that Janet had, but I was raised in a family of seven kids, four different fathers. watched my mother get abused by a drunken dad who Raise me. She abused us, and I became the abuser. Even though my mother was her husband at the time, I was molested by him.

after following my sister to his home. Week after week, he started molesting me. Later in life, I found out my young sister was molesting. Then I was molested by an altar boy at my church. And when you see men continuously rape you, abuse of one of your family members, like women.

I didn't want to be in a relationship. Later in life, I moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota, and met this wonderful guy and thought I was going to get married, and in turn I wind up meeting this woman and walked away from the Lord for fourteen years. And in 1998, I walked away in 1985. Three months before I was supposed to walk down the aisle in nineteen ninety eight, The Lord brought me back and I started serving him and I never looked back. It's been eighteen years.

And Janet, when I asked the question, I ask it out loud on the air now. Where did you get the practical Godly wisdom, because your book is filled with it. It's not just the Bible says this and that, it's practical application of the wisdom of scripture, being raised the way you were. And and not married now. And I looked at it as as if you had been raised in an amazing home.

And we're in an amazing married relationship with grown kids. Where did you get the practical wisdom from? I think a lot of times, it's the things that we go through and the teachings and the people that we come under. God has really blessed me with wonderful people who have come alongside of me, the family that I live with for a year. you know, started laying the groundwork.

But really in the end, Michael, it was up to me. I had to make a decision if I was going to serve God, what kind of teachings I was going to be, if I wanted to be a part of ministries that were going to tickle my ear. If people said something to me out of love, was I going to take offense to it or if I was going to take it and apply it to my life? But also I have families. who are struggling with homosexuality in their lives, came alongside of me and gave me their input.

on the book as well.

So it was collaborate with other people, but in the in the long run it was neat. Listen, Janet is thriving in her life and her relationship with the Lord. She is a blessed, joyful, deeply content woman. If God can do that in Janet's life, he can do that in anyone's life. Oh God of burning, cleansing flame.

Send the fire. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome back to the line of fire. I'm speaking with Janet Boynes. She's the author of the brand new book, God and Sexuality. Oh, by the way, in a moment, I want to let you know how you can get a free copy of my brand new book, co-authored with my wife Nancy, Breaking the Stronghold of Food. We're getting rave reviews about the book.

We're hearing from people and telling us by the time they finished reading the book, they lost 10 pounds or 7.5 pounds, and now they're on their way to a brand new lifestyle. We'll tell you and get a free copy of that along with an exclusive teaching DVD that we've put out on the subject. I'll come back to that in a moment. My guest, Janet Boynes, her new book, God and Sexuality. Janet, you've heard it over and over and over again.

There's no such thing as ex-gay. There's no such thing as former homosexual, former lesbian. Either you were never really gay, or you're actually bisexual and repressing part of your life, or you're just living a repressed life. You've heard. That obviously over and over.

It's got to be a little frustrating because you know yourself, you know the skin that you walk in. But tell me what Jesus did in your life and tell me about your life in the Lord now. What's it like? Mhm. You know, Michael A lot of people say, Can you come out of homosexuality?

Do you still struggle with it? For me, I don't. And let me tell you why I don't still struggle with homosexuality. When I walked out of that life in nineteen ninety eight, I didn't look back. I didn't have one foot in the world and one foot in the church.

I had to take both feet. And plunge myself in the Word of God and prayer. and I change my surroundings. I had great people around me. They weren't, you know, a bunch of preachers and teachers.

These were just ordinary families. who I started spending time with on a regular basis. I went to Bible study. I went to everything that that's almost like going to 90 days, 90 minutes. Every time the church door was open, I I was in it.

And when you start changing your surroundings, Things start to look differently. You don't have the desire, and you're not getting as tempted as you were in the past. And that's where the groundwork started for me.

Now, did the enemy always try to tempt me in that area? Absolutely. But if the Bible is true and it's sharper than a two-edged sword and it pierces the heart of the marrow, then we have to know what tools we need. In order to keep ourselves right before God.

So I started to take what I knew was best, and that was the Word of God. And I started using it as Jesus did to beat the devil to a pulp. I just started remembering scriptures and I started using them. And eventually, the Bible says that the devil will flee. He started to flee, and he realized after a period of time that he can no longer use that to tempt me.

Now will he come in other areas as long as they're spent on planet Earth? As long as the devil's on planet Earth, he's always going to tempt us. But the Bible never says, Dr. Michael Brown, upon our salvation, we're not going to be tempted, we're not going to have thoughts, and we're not going to have desires because you will. but you still have to master it.

You still have to be as transparent as you can. Have good people around you so you can confide in them, so they can pray for you because prayer still works. It wasn't thrown out the window in the Old Testament. It works today, yesterday, and forever. We have to pray for each other and continue to lift each other up.

And that's what people did for me. And, you know, what you're basically saying is the exact same counsel you would give to someone who was an alcoholic, who was a drug addict, who was addicted to pornography, who had any other life-controlling addiction or sin. The exact same counsel, that you totally surrender to the Lord. You turn your back on your past. You don't leave the door open.

You flee what's wrong. You pursue that which is right. You immerse yourself in the word and prayer. You do it together with other believers, exactly what I did coming out of drugs and the whole decadent lifestyle I was living. And the same results, liberty and freedom in Jesus, and then vigilance.

I realized once I got married, I still had to be vigilant with thoughts about other women that, you know, that doesn't. And, you know, I radically changed my relationship to food two and a half years ago, but that's how I did it. I shut the door on the wrong and I don't open it and I immerse myself in the new.

So the same gospel, the same power of the Spirit, the same truths work either way. Janet, when a lot of people say to me, every time I say this, they say, I've never heard this before. For you and me, whether you're on drugs or whether you're trying to get over overeating, no matter what it is, Dr. Michael Brown, it's a process. It's a process.

Things don't happen overnight.

Now, let me clarify this. I'm not trying to put God in the box, God can do anything He wants. But most of the time ninety eight percent of the time, we're going to go through a process. We're going to have to put one foot in front of the other and walk this thing out. And when you do that, you're able to teach others how to go through.

a process. Maybe it's it might not look like your process. but at least you're able to give them some stepping stones. on how they can get to from point A to point B. Yeah, and it's look, some people have an instantaneous deliverance from some controlling area of their lives, but even then there's the process of living a new life.

And many times people may look at your life and say, Man, you got it together. You're a whole, you write books, you're on Christian TV, but you weren't there overnight. There's the growing in grace and that transformational process that you mentioned. I'm glad you bring that word in. Dr.

Michael Brown, one more thing you said. You keep doing this. Um you like. What does that mean? A new life.

If any man be in Christ, He's a new creation. Old things pass away, and all things become new. I don't think a lot of Christians. Even those millennials that are coming up today, they're not stupid. I think they're as smart as you can be.

But a lot of people don't realize that once they ask Jesus into their life, The old has passed away. He doesn't even remember that anymore. You are now a new person and now let's start walking in that newness.

So, you must change your way of thinking, renewing of the mind, and you do that with the Word of God.

So, I used to be a certain thing. I'm not that anymore. And God doesn't relate to me based on who I used to be, nor should I relate to myself based on who I used to be. That's what you're saying. Right.

And that's why I don't always like to be called an ex-homosexual. You're not an ex-homosexual as far as I'm concerned. I'm a person just like a drug addict or overeater or whatever it may be. I got off track. I took a bunny rabbit trail and now I've come home.

You know, I've come home to Christ. I'm the person that God has intended for me to be from the foundation of the earth when I came out of my mother's womb. But sometimes we take a different path than what God has called. called us to. I have a hard time with that term, ex-homosexuals, and I get it.

Yes, I've come out of that light, but that's not who I am. That's what I did. That's not who I am. Yeah. And in fact, the only reason I ever make reference to that is to reach out to others who are struggling.

Yeah, I relate to you as a solid sister in the Lord with a burning passion to glorify Jesus. And if I introduce you a certain way, the reason is so that other people know: hey, this woman I'm speaking to has something to say to so many of you. Hey, I'm going to continue my conversation with Janet Boynes. If you miss any of it, just go to thelineoffire.org. You can catch our entire conversation.

Her new book, God and Sexuality. Hey, friends, a shout-out. Everyone, if you've not yet joined our support team. This week. When you become a torch bearer, one of our monthly supporters, you get a free copy of our new book, Breaking the Stronghold of Food, in an exclusive teaching DVD, not available anywhere else.

Go to thelineoffire.org to find out more. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks so much for joining us on the line of fire. I'm speaking with Janet Boynes, author of the new book, God and Sexuality, getting great reviews on Amazon. I felt so good about the book and so good about Janet's testimony and her ministry that I wrote the foreword to the book. Janet, what do you counsel parents to do? You do this in the book, but let's go through it now.

They've got, say, a 16-year-old daughter. And she sits her parents down, raised in the church, and she sits her parents down one day and says, Mom and dad, I want you to know I'm a lesbian. How do they respond? What do they do? It's funny because we just got received an email and we're doing a call with the parents this weekend along with Um Two other, another couple that we work very closely with.

But Dr. Michael Ground, in the book, I wanted to give them some guidelines. but it's different for everybody. That we work with based on what they're dealing with. If a parent calls me, I'd like to find out one about the parent.

I don't really ask a lot of questions about the child right away. I want to find out about the parents and the upbringing and how they raised their child. you know, a lot of times it's in the Christian home. But we always try to encourage our parents Not to throw darts at their kids. Don't throw them under the bus.

Don't call them names. Don't hate them. Don't throw them out of the house. but have respect for them as well as you want your child to have respect for you Find out what caused your child to go in. What is the root cause?

And then listen to them because whatever they're dealing with might not be what you're dealing with. Just respect that this is what caused them to go into the life. And it might not be anything, they might have been hanging out with the wrong person. And then at the same time, a lot of times our parents want to tell our kids, go to counseling. Go to counseling.

Well, if they're eighteen or nineteen or twenty years old, they're not going to want to go to California. I think once we sit down and have a better understanding, a while our child decided to go into that life I think that's when we have to really go to prayer. and start asking God, what can we do differently? How do we love our child? Can we make an impact?

Yes. your first words to your child will make the biggest impact. on how do you respond. And how do you take this to prayer? And then you get help for yourself.

and then come back. And sit down and talk with your child based on guidelines that somebody else was able to give you the information to help them move forward. Although every family is different, every family relationship is different, every child's reason for, quote, coming out or for saying, This is, I believe this is who I am, or how they got to that point, we understand that's different in every case. There may be a lot of similarities, but different in every case. But if you had to tell parents, okay.

Here are the best words to start with. Here are the worst words to start with. What would you tell them? Just tell 'em you love 'em. We don't support your views.

We will not validate you. This is our belief system. We believe Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and life. We don't support it. But as our child, we're going to continue to love you.

because what our kids are looking for is validation. They're looking for you to affirm them. And I always tell parents, if you affirm them, you are supporting their views. You can't talk out of postside your mouth. You can't say, hey, I don't support your views and then affirm them.

and say, okay, you can have your significant other come over the house if it's someone of the same sex. You have to make a stand because what I'm hearing from parents and from their child. if my mother or father would have given in. to my belief system, I would have never probably come back to Florida because then I would have believed what they believe is not real. Did you know they loved you?

They didn't affirm you. Di did you know that your mother loved you even without affirming you? My mother loved me no matter what, but you know what? She affirmed me. See, one thing we have to realize that in each culture, it's different.

Tell you what, let me jump in. We'll finish this answer on the other side of the break. And then, Janet, before you go, I'm going to read you a letter from an inner city pastor looking for help. We're going to answer him together right here. Ain't the world It's fire we want, for fire we It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-342. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. Michael Brown speaking with Janet Boynes, her brand new book, God and Sexuality, Truth and Relevance Without Compromise. All right, we had to take a break there and cut you off in mid-sentence, mid-thought. You were saying that you were loved by your mother, but also affirmed in a sinful lifestyle, and began to talk about culture when we had to cut you off. That's o that's okay.

Yes, because my brother and I both lived the homosexual life. See, my brother was gay long before I was gay. He was. he became a homosexual in high school. And he died in 1999 of AIDS.

And I always saw people send, we'll take you further than you want to go and keep you longer than you want to stay. I bet you my brother could never have anticipated. that he would have died at the early age of forty. But what I'm saying about that is in the African American family, and I'm sure I'm going to get emails. But we don't deal with this issue like some of the Caucasian families.

I get more emails from Caucasian families than African American families, and I know of plenty African American families that are dealing with homosexuality. They would rather turn a blind eye, just like the African American churches, and pretend, not all African American churches, like this thing doesn't even exist. They don't even want to they don't even want to deal with it. And I think that's a cultural thing. Because we have always in the African American homes and churches.

in schools. We might fight against each other. And I'm saying we. But when it's time to back each other up and stand up, they'll stand right up next to you, whether sometimes it's right or wrong. Which I think is really sad because love is telling somebody the truth even when you know they're going to reject you and turn their back on you.

But we don't do a lot of that in African American family.

Now, today, my mother is so happy I'm serving God. My mother's biggest fear at the age of eighty two is that one day I'm going to go out on the pulpit and somebody's going to try to hurt. hurt me because of the stand that I've made. But my mother, through the whole life of homosexuality, like 14 years. that I lived in that life.

My whole family. supported me. I have a niece right now. cousins out there that are dealing with homosexuality, I don't treat them any differently. They know where I stand, but every time I see them, I throw my arms around them and I hug them as if You know, they don't have not a bit of sin in their lives.

And I'm hoping that my love for them one day will draw them to repent. Yeah, amen. May it be so. Janet, I've got a letter on my desk here from a pastor of a small inner-city Pentecostal church. He said, I recently read your book, Dr.

Brown, Can You Begin Christian? Wonderful book, an excellent read. I used the text in my Bible class. He said, in my next Bible class, I'll be dealing with transsexualism and transgenderism in the local church.

So he asked three questions. Number one, what would you say to a parishioner in your church who had sexual reassignment surgery to be clear that person is still attending your church and they wanted to be called and recognized by their new name? What would you tell this pastor? Wow. You know, that's difficult.

One, you don't know you don't know the pastor. I mean, every situation is going to be different. You don't know this person. You know, he has transitioned. He had reassignment surgery.

He used to be a girl and now he's a boy or he was a boy and now he's a girl. Eyes dealt with this before and I asked them to talk with me personally. And I say, I know. I know without a shadow of a doubt. you were born a boy, a nine year old, or vice versa.

But will you allow me the respect for how you came out of your mother's womb. To call you the name that you were born with, I know that that's not what you want. A lot of people say, well, let me call you that name because. you know, that's who you are now. But you're still my personal opinion.

Everybody's going to have a different opinion. I feel that you're still validating their behavior. even if you didn't have an opportunity to talk with them in person and call them by that name, but when you're in private, ask them if you can call them Joe, if they're a woman that's in a really a man. Can I call you Harry? That's how I dealt with it.

Yeah, Janet, I'm I'm with you on that. If I'm introduced to someone That's that's uh transsexual. And they uh that's the only name they give me. And I don't know anything else. I have no choice in responding.

That's one thing, but I will immediately do my best to avoid it, find something neutral. When I was on Tyra Banks and there was a man who had sex change surgery and is now known as the rock star of sex change surgery because he's a medical doctor, I knew if I referred to him in male terms, Tyra and the whole audience would be furious with me. And I was trying to get them to hear something I was saying. And that was not. A battle they need to fight then, but because the man is a medical doctor, I just referred to him with his last name, Dr.

Bowers. And I've done that too, Dr. Michael Brown.

When I know something is not right, I just. Change it. Yeah, so to the to the pastor, Janet and I agree that to say with all respect we believe God created you a certain way and and we'd be validating something we believe is not true. It would be no different than if that person thought that he was Paul McCartney. Or if that person thought that he was deeply, deeply believed that he was part alien species, whatever, and what we say, with all respect, we love you, but we we cannot Validate that.

And what I would also say is, if that person came under conviction from the Spirit, which often happens, and realized I've made a terrible mistake, what I've encouraged is best to drop out from where you are. Undo whatever you can surgically, get off the hormones, and then once you start to look and feel the way God created you, find a new home church where everyone can know you for who you are.

Okay, second question, Janet. Would you say that someone is in sin if they had sexual reassignment surgery? Are they in sin if they are transgender taking hormones? What that Wow, you're asking some really good questions. Yeah, these come my way all the time, also, Jeff.

This is my answer as a person who deals with this on a regular basis, who really wants to and made a commitment to God over 18 years ago that I would stay true to his word. I felt in my heart, let me say this before I answer. That I promised the Lord. when he when I knew that I was going to be in this type of ministry. I heard it in my belly, not audibly, and I don't say this often.

If you stay true to my word, I'll take you places you never dreamed of, but many will get away from my word. when it comes to this issue, stay true. Wow. is that if you decide to transition have reassignment surgery. Yes, I do believe it's then.

Because the Bible says in Jeremiah that I ordained you in your mother's womb. He said, I know every hair on your head. God has chosen for you to be male or female. And for one of us to say, I don't like who you made me to be. I want to be something different.

by slap in the face. And another thing I believe that we're doing personally, even though we don't recognize that we're doing it. We're turning our backs. On God. We're turning our back on our mother and our father and saying, I don't like who I am.

Well, God loves you who you are, and He made you this way for a reason. whether you agree or not. And the enemy has come in like a flood, and he has lied to you. And so, only thing I can say that, yes, Dr. Michael Brown, my personal opinion.

I believe it's a sin. Yeah, and let me add this for a pastor. There are people who are in agony. They are in. deep emotional, mental, spiritual pain.

They believe the only outlet, the only thing that gives them peace is to identify as other than the way they were born. They were born biologically chromosomally male or female. And now they They uh The only way they have peace of mind, they feel is if they're these hormones and that sex change surgery. I would look at a case like that and say that. Yes, it is sinful to try to change who God made us, but that as a pastor, I would recognize, and Janet, of course, would recognize.

This person is in agony. And right now they're doing this out of weakness and confusion, so I would meet them there. and say there is a better way, and once they can see that better way, Then to persist in the old way is sinning with their eyes open. Pastor last asked: Could you refer me to any books about transsexualism, transgenderism, in church? Go to help for families.com.

HELP the number four, families, help for families dot com. If it's not dot com, then check dot dot org. Help for the number four, families dot com and sext change regret. com. You'll find a lot of resources there.

Help, the number four, helpforfamilies.com. And SexChange Regret.com. You'll get some important resources there. Janet, these are the types of difficult issues you tackle in your book, God and Sexuality. If folks want to visit your website, where do they go?

uh www dot Janet Boynes, B O Y N E S Ministries, plural. Dot com. All right, Janet Boynesministries.com. The new book, God and Sexuality. Janet, may the Lord use you to bring life and liberty and freedom to many around America and around the world.

Thanks, Dr. Michael Brown.

You're very welcome. All right, friends, we come back. We are going to change subjects after this important discussion. And we are going to focus on what is happening right now with the White House, with the Senate, with the press, with the confirmation hearings.

So stay tuned. We're going to take a few more minutes and come back to where we started. Change the world. Change the world. Oh, God of burning, cleansing flame, send the fire.

It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

All right, I am going to say something that is controversial. Yeah, what else is new? All right. You know that I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus. First and foremost, a follower of Jesus.

I am a radio host secondarily. I'm an author secondarily. I'm a preacher secondarily. I'm a professor secondarily. Whatever else.

All right. So I'm not your typical Gospel radio show. I'm not your typical conservative talk show host because I have to be true to the calling on my life, just like these others have to be true to what is the calling on their lives.

So if I was a standard conservative talk show host, I would be all about pro-conservative, anti-liberal, wherever. Wherever I had the opportunity, I'd be bashing the Obama administration, I'd be praising the Republicans, you know, whatever the case would be. I'm stereotyping a little bit, but you get the point. You know that my views are strongly conservative based on scripture, that my views. have on many key issues have differed deeply than with our president, with our outgoing president Barack Obama, that I have a lot of views in common with President-elect Trump and then many other areas where I have concerns and questions.

So it's not just one or the other. But here's the point I'm going to make. Here's what I'm going to say that's controversial. If you were really upset. With President Obama.

going after Fox News a lot and and blaming them and and almost demonizing them. Or conversely, if you were always cheering on Fox News going after Obama. Don't use a double standard now. In other words, if you were cheering on Fox News for going after. President Obama over these last eight years.

Or you were cheering on Rush Limbaugh going after President Obama these last eight years. Then don't be all upset that C and Ann And other media, they're going after Donald Trump these days, or they went after Ted Cruz or others during the primaries. That's just the way it's going to be. The conservatives are going to attack the liberals, the liberals are going to attack the conservatives. And we didn't bring in libertarians and all these others and where they're going to fit.

Conversely, conversely. If you were upset with Barack Obama, for singling out Fox News, then don't get upset with Donald Trump for singling out CNN.

So, yeah, I'm going to be an equal opportunity offender. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's just be consistent in our criticisms. Use the same canon of criticism. If you are going to blame the middle for what the fringe does on the left, then do the same on the right.

If you are going to blame an entire religion for what fringe practitioners do, then do it with your own religion. If you're going to take the best of your religion or the best of your party or the best of your demographic and compare it to the worst of someone else's, then you're being inconsistent and hypocritical and dishonest. The problem is, we see things so passionately, we have such deep convictions, it's all too easy for us to do that very thing.

So. Donald Trump now at a press conference. Branding CNN fake news, and what really pushed him over now. Is the fact that BuzzFeed circulated a report that should never have been released, really, probably shouldn't have been printed, the more we know and understand, claiming that Donald Trump was not even going to say what he was allegedly guilty of, and that Russia had evidence of it, and what took place at Ritz-Carlton in Russia, and on and on. And According to him.

Uh it it it is Absolutely. Nonsense. He said, Russia even says it is, quote, a complete and total fabrication, utter nonsense. Says paid for by political opponents. The whole thing is just a hit job to try to discredit him and make him look bad.

And you say, Well, yeah, National Enquirer puts these things out. Exactly. Exactly. And CNN then Wouldn't repeat them other than to say National Inquirer has this new charge, but you just let the thing go. You don't make it your own news and then report it.

So they've come under attack and Donald Trump has just said, you're fake news. I'm not even going to let you ask a question at the press conference. Things are heating up. It's it is ugly. It's going to get Uglier.

Say what should we be doing? Pray for God to shake America. And wake up the church and touch the nation. That's what you should pray for in the midst of all this that's going on. We'll go to Howell, New Jersey.

Mike, thanks for holding. Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, doctor Brown, thank you. Hillary Clinton referred to Vladimir Putin as Hitler for his annexation of the Crimea and his activities in the Ukraine. And uh the the sanctions that Obama and Clinton have put on Russia are costing them at least $100 billion a year.

have also put a five hundred billion dollar ExxonMobil deal on on ICE.

So obviously Putin, the former KGB, would love to have somebody who doesn't refer to him as Hitler. Um in in the White House.

So and he he has uh I I can't understand why Trump, uh, who will go after Rosie O'Donnell, can't say anything about uh uh a evil uh dictator who who who shoots reporters in the street. Um, you know, l like Vladimir Putin. Yeah, well the the issue. Yeah, and Hillary Clinton, a couple of years back, almost three years ago now, said that Putin's actions are like what Hitler did. And of course, a lot of pushback to that.

The question is: is Trump impressed with Putin. as a fellow alpha male type leader. Is he impressed with him? Does he like the fact that Putin has spoken well of him in the past? And were the Russians trying to get Trump in and Hillary out?

That is one theory. Another theory is that Trump is thinking: hey, this is what he said in the press conference today: if we can get along. Great but if not, We're going to do what we're going to do. saying that Russia and China and Japan and Mexico are going to have far more respect for America under his administration than under the Obama administration. And the point there would be, it's going to be a strong America.

You may hate us, but you're going to respect us. Are they in cahoots in any way? the only thing that seems certain is that overall Russia did not influence the outcome of the elections. That. Seems to me Fairly certain, of course, others are going to dispute that.

But Mike, we shall see. what Russia's sentiments are. And how Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin get along? Rex Tillerson and the confirmation hearings, Marco Rubio really going after him for Secretary of State, and questions about his relationship with Russia, his business relationships with Russia. Is this going to help America?

Do we look at Russia as our arch enemy or someone that can be a distant ally? Important questions. And I appreciate you raising the issue for us, Mike. All right, friends, we are out of time and. Oh, so much going on.

If you go to thelineoffire.org and check out the most recent videos and articles, you'll be enriched and blessed. Join us today. Check out our free resource offer when you do at thelineoffire.org. My bottom line, pray, pray, pray for God to shake America and bring us to our knees. My guest today, Greg Kochl, has written a brand new book about the story of reality.

Uh It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Five words. Sum up the Gospel story in five words. What are the foundations of our faith? What is the story of reality? How did the world began?

How will the world end? And what has happened in between the beginning and end of the world? Of great importance. That's what my guest, Greg Kochl, has addressed. You know, from Stan Teresa in Ministries, a leading apologist.

His new book, The Story of Reality, just looking at the back cover, it is a who's who of Christian leaders who have enthusiastically endorsed the book. We're going to talk about this today. If you consider yourself to be a follower of Jesus and a believer in the scriptures, you will find this to be an eye-opening interview. If you say, I'm not so sure about this, aren't there many different ways to God? And isn't the Bible just one of many different religious books?

I think you're going to find this to be really eye-opening interview as well. Greg, welcome back to the line of fire. Thanks so much for joining us. Michael, it's great to be on board with you again today.

Well, Greg, we're in a day right now of swirling political questions and animosities and everything swirling around us, and yet ultimately the same answers, the same problems, and they ultimately come back to God's Word that has the answer. You have kind of an audacious title for this book, The Story of Reality. We're hearing about fake news now, fake media. Story of reality. Are you saying that ultimate reality is only found in one place?

Is that what you're saying? What I'm saying is that there is a state of the world, there is a way things are. And that it's possible to discover some of the important pieces of that, that the nature of reality, so to speak. And when it comes to the Christian accounting of things, The Bible does give the story of reality, and we have good reason to believe that it gets the story right. And the reason that I titled it in part the story of reality is because people have for so long, as you know, just relativized.

Truth in general, but especially a religious truth. It's your truth, you have your truth, I have my truth, he has his truth, and everybody has their own little make uh s story that makes us feel happy kind of thing. And my point is that is not the point of the accounting of the world that the Bible gives. The Bible means to tell us the way things really are. That is, the characters in the story really lived, the events really happened or are going to happen.

This is an accounting of the way things Yeah. And that's like right out of the gates I want people to get the sense of what kind of claim we're making. Re Christians relativize their own view and they say, Well, this is my view, but I don't know why it's got to be your view. Listen, this isn't about what's going on on the inside of Christians, their faith. their feelings, their relationship with God, all of those things are really important.

But Jesus saw this whole project first from the outside before the inside. That is, if the accounting of the world that Christianity offers and the Bible offers is not true to what is, it's not true on the outside, then it doesn't matter what happens on the inside because it isn't going to help you anything unless we're onto something true and accurate here. And that's really the force of the title of the book, The Story of Reality. All right, friends, we're going to speak with Greg in some depth, dive into the contents of this book, Lee Strobel. Says it is a beautifully crafted description of the Christian worldview written in an accessible, winsome, and well-reasoned manner.

Think of it, it's barely 200 pages, and it's going to tell you how the world began, how it ends, and everything important that happens in between. The new book, The Story of Reality. Greg Coco, K-O-U-K-L.

So spiritual truth is not relative, it's not you have your beliefs and I have mine. There are absolutes, really? We'll take that up when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

You know, we hear now that we live in an age of not just post-modernism, but post-truth. My guest today, well-known apologist and the leader of Stand to Reason, str.org, a very important apologetics website in ministry. My guest, Greg Koco, has written a book, The Story of Reality. And let's start right there. Greg, how do you react to the idea that we're living in a post-truth age?

Well, I think that's true as far as it goes. It just needs to be qualified. It's very popular now to dismiss uh any kind of um Absolute statements about reality as just merely one's own truth. That's your truth, I have my truth, etc., etc. But people don't actually live that way.

I mean, really, when it comes down to it, they think there is a real world out there, and we are truth seekers. By nature, Michael. In fact, if we could know certain things to be true, Uh we'd be dead in a day. I mean, let's face it. Um there becomes more skepticism, though, when it comes to the question of spiritual truth, religious truth, that category.

And um and I think it's pretty straightforward. It to me it falls kind of in the same category. Look, the claim that God exists is either true or false. I mean, it doesn't make any good to say, well, it's your truth that he does, but it's my truth that he doesn't. I mean, uh listen, if a story is not accurate to reality, it's not any kind of truth at all.

So it can never be my truth or your truth, even if we believe it. It can only be our delusion or our mistake or our error, but it can never be our truth.

So there's this kind of silly way that people have been talking about it that I think gets in the way of us discovering what's What's true about the world, and especially in the important things? And I think the question, the very basic question, like, does God exist? is a question that we have some resources that will help us to answer.

So I have no reason to accept this. this very broad-based religious skepticism when it comes to the question of truth that we see in our culture today. All right, so you would say ultimately that our world view should be based on truth. In other words, I I i if I'm going to live in this world, I should understand uh certain things about life. You know, when when I go to the store to to buy uh You know, to buy some groceries when I go to buy an apple, I understand that is an apple and not an elephant and not an alligator and not a dish of ice, not a bowl of ice.

When I go to get on a plane, I understand this plane takes me somewhere.

So, like you said, if we don't believe certain things are true, we can't live at all. Yeah, we would die in a day. And think of a world view. A w a world view is a view. about the way the world is.

So even the concept world view Has built into it the notion that we're trying to figure out the accurate way the world is. We're not just making up our own fantasy. And it's ironic that sometimes people will talk about the facts of the world as if they're so certain and they buy into that notion. But then when it comes to other things that they don't like. you know, religious points of view that maybe crowd them or cramp their freedom a little bit, well then all of a sudden they start relativizing them.

Yeah, so when we speak of a Christian worldview, the way we often think of it, or the way others hear it, is: as followers of Jesus, this is how we see the world. But what you're saying in your book, The Story of Reality, is based on truth, this is how the world should be seen, and we, as followers of Jesus, have that truth. Yeah, Michael, that's a great way of putting it. I I think the first way you put it is fine if we were talking fifty years ago.

Now when we use that kind of language, it is it is understood by people to be relativistic. Language. as followers of Jesus, this is what our club says. These are the rules of our club. You have a different club.

You're followers of Krishna or Buddha.

Well, you have a different set of rules, and we get it, and we're kind of all in the same game, but with different clubs. That's where we have to make the distinction. And I think the way you followed up and kind of repaired the statement was a great way of putting it. According to Rick Warren, Greg Kochl's book, The Story of Reality, is the clearest explanation of the Christian world you have ever read. Written in a style everyone can understand.

J. Warner Wallace, many of you know him, Cold Case Christianity. He says of your book, Greg: a modern classic like C.S. Lewis before him. Greg Kochl has written a masterful, measured, intelligent, insightful book, a must-read for anyone who wants to understand Christianity.

That then leads to the question: who did you write the story of reality for?

Well, this is an interesting question. As an author yourself, you know, every author wants to say, my book is for everybody, kind of thing. And then we tell the publisher that, and they say, yeah, right. But it turns out that this particular book has a very wide audience. Since it's meant to give a wide angle picture of the Christian story from beginning to end, covering the important details and the emphasis on the important things that happens in between, that's why it's only two hundred pages or a little less.

Um and not volumes and volumes is uh i i uh in order to um In order to do that, I had to speak in a very, very clear and basic way, covering the foundations. Of Christianity. And I figure, well, there's a lot of Christians out there that don't have the foundation. They've been around for a long time. They're sitting in pews all over the country, but they don't get it.

And this is really tragic. And so this is meant to lay the story out for people who have been around for a while, but never put it all together into a kind of a coherent whole. It's also for new Christians. who want to get the foundation right out of the gates, as it were. And it's also for more mature Christians who get the story but want to teach it well in discipleship or Bible training classes or Sunday schools or those kinds of things.

And I put it together in a way I think that will be easy for them to transfer it. But notice that whole audience is within the church. Great. But to be honest with you, when I'm thinking I'm sitting down banging away at the keys, Michael, in my mind I'm thinking of the non-Christian. As I'm wordsmithing, I'm organizing my ideas and my arguments and however all the things are going, I'm thinking.

How is the non-Christian going to read this? Does this language make sense to them? Is it bothersome? Does it sound like a religious tract? Or does it have a flow and a And a rhythm to it that will be pleasing to their ear am I talking to them in a gracious way.

And my style in this book, Michael, is to is really to engage the reader. to talk with the reader, much like Lewis does in In mere Christianity, I mean, if the comparison isn't too bold, that was my model.

So I'm hoping that there are a lot, not only I'm hoping that a lot of non-Christians are going to read this because they're Christian friends. found out that this is a book that they can give to them without being embarrassed. This is a book that they can give to them that's going to be solid and foundational. um and not going out on a limb doctrinally in anything, but also is written in a in a genial, friendly style that is very accessible to somebody who who's not in church all the time. And the subtitle, again, it's a great way to draw someone in.

Obviously, a Christian who knows your ministry knows your books. They're eagerly awaiting your new book.

So they'll dive in. Others will see the endorsements and say, man, this sounds interesting. I should check this out. But if someone just, you'd be in an airport and see this book put out.

Some of my titles, there's no way you'd see put out in an airport, you know. But the subtitle. How the world began, how it ends, and everything important that happens in between. Did you come up with that? Did the publisher come up with it?

Because that's a brilliant subtitle. That's my wording. Actually, the story of reality used to be the subtitle, and that was a different title. The title was Krato, C-R-E-D-O. That was a working title for 15 years for this project.

Wow. And I sat across from J. Warner Wallace about a year ago at dinner, and the one whose endorsement you just read, and he goes. Jeff says, Dude, You can't call it Krato. Nobody's going to know what you're talking about.

You got to change the title. And in fifteen minutes he convinced me.

So I took my subtitle of that book, The Story of Reality, I made it the title, and then I went to the first paragraph of the book And I seized this sentence: How the world began. How it ends, and everything important that happens in between. And I patched it in as a relatively long. Subtitle, and I had a little struggle with my publisher on this one. Man, that's a lot of words.

I said, just read it out loud. I said, just read it out loud, I said to my editor, and he read it out loud. He said, yeah, that works. All right, we'll stick with it.

So I'm glad that it worked out that way. But I got to give credit to Jay Warner Wallace for his insistence that I do something different on the title, and I'm really glad I did. Yeah, I once had a title for my book that's now entitled Go and Sin No More, a Call of Holiness, you know, quoting the words of Jesus in John 8. And I had used another translation that it said stop sinning or something like that. And I was talking to a friend during a service where he was getting ready to preach, and I was there teaching in the daytime.

And we're sitting there before the service with thousands of people out in the auditorium. And he said, Mike, Not stop sinning. Come on, sin no more, I thought. Oh, yeah, you're right. More familiar words of Jesus there.

Thank God. Iron sharpens iron, you know. That's good. Thank God for our friends and colleagues. All right, I want to dig into some of the substance in this book as we've been introducing it and the why and the how of the book.

Greg Kochl, this is brand new, literally hot off the press, The Story of Reality. Many of you know Nancy Piercy. She wrote the foreword to this book, One of the Great Christian Thinkers Today, How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important That Happens in Between. And we're going to center on five words, and we'll do just touch quickly on each of these words: God, man, Jesus, cross, resurrection. Those are the biggies.

Those are the biggies. I change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown.

I've often said while talking to someone about the Lord that would they agree that the most important question of all questions is if there is a God who has created them Then, does he require anything of them? Does he have anything for them? The most fundamental of all questions. My guest, Greg Kochal, has a brand new book, The Story of Reality. And ultimately, he identifies the most important things that happen in the story of reality in the order they take place: God, man, Jesus, cross.

Resurrection.

So, Greg, you've got a whole book on this, a little under 200 pages, so it's very readable and it opens up great deep concepts. But let's just jump in and touch on each of these to give folks a taste of what's in the book. Let's start with God.

Okay, yeah, the my point here was pre really as I started this whole project is to think about Gee, what are the core sinequinons, the absolute essentials of Christianity? And these are the concepts that came up. And I realized that, boy, that's the order of the story, too. That's kind of the plot line, as you mentioned, the important things in the order they took place.

So they are our foundational theological concepts, but are also the plot line to our story. Our story has a beginning, and it starts this way. In the beginning, God. created the heavens and the earth. And it tells us a couple of things right out of the gate.

First it tells us who this story is about. The story is about God. It is not about us. We come later. We're important.

We have our part to play, but we're not the center of the program. You know, when I was a younger Christian, I used to say something that has some value, but I look at it differently now. I used to say, God has a wonderful plan for your life.

Now I think of it as, no, it's really there is a it is our lives for God's wonderful plan. We are subservient to that. God's in charge. It's His program. It's not only His program, it's His world.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. He made the world. It belongs to Him because He made it. That means everything is His, including me. and you and the rest of us, okay?

This also sets the stage in the story for something else. It shows that there are two kinds of things in the world that God made: there are visible things. Of the world, and there are invisible things.

So we have God, who is an invisible personal being, and we have all these other physical things He's made.

Now this is important because you have to judge any story By the world, in a certain sense, that it sits within.

So, if you go to read The Hobbit or something like that, there are all kinds of strange things. that happened there, they wouldn't happen in our world. But because we know we're in a different world there, it makes perfect sense.

Some people don't like the idea of miracles. They think that just sounds ridiculous. water into wine, people rise from the dead. But if we see in our story, those are the kinds of things that fit right into our story because from the very beginning, You have immaterial things, a personal God. You have material things, and you have God over that, using his power to do what he wills.

So the concept of changing water into line or raising the dead or speaking. blitting the Red Sea or stopping the sun, all of those things fit right into our story. And so therefore, if we have good reason to believe the story is true, that that's entirely plausible and we ought to take it seriously.

So that's the first step. God, that's the beginning. Yeah. The next step is man, of course, and God created man to be in friendship with man. But then something happened.

He made man special. Man is creaturely. He's not a little God, but he's also not like anything else. He's beautiful in that he's made in the image of God. But something happened.

There was a rebellion. And man became broken. And this is a real important point, Michael. When man became broken by his own actions, he also broke the world. You see, a lot of people are concerned about the problem of evil as they should be.

What they don't often realize is that the Christian story. deals with the problem of evil. It's all about the problem of evil. It talks about how it started and it talks about how it gets solved. it started because man did something in rebellion to God.

that influenced everything else. No, man, God could have just said, okay, that's it, you know, and lowered the boom on man like He did the angels when they rebelled, but He didn't. he decided to initiate a rescue operation. out of love. For man.

The way he did that is he became a man himself. In the person of Jesus.

So we have God. Man, Jesus, you can see how this is developing. What's the important thing about Jesus?

Well, who he was and what he came to do. Who was he? He was the God man. He was in perfect God, the incarnate God in uh the incarnate uh God incarnate in man. Fully human, fully divine.

And there's reasons why this is all important that I go into in the book. He represents us and he represents God at the same time. He can do something as the divine son of God that no other human being can do. He could rescue other human beings, all of them. And how did he do that?

Well, he lived the perfect life that we should have lived, and then he made a trade. His life for hours, and that trade happened. uh on a on a ro outcropping of rock on outside of ancient Jerusalem. The locals called it Golgotha. We know it as Calvary, the place of the cross.

Not on that cross. Jesus traded his righteousness for our stamp. The way Paul puts it is this. He made him. Father made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin on our behalf.

So that we might become the righteousness of God and Him. The reformers called it the marvelous exchange. And that's a gift. It can't be earned. It can only be received.

We have to trust Jesus for it. And what we do about that offer of what happened on the cross determines what happens. at the final resurrection, where there will either be perfect justice Punishment for everything we've ever done wrong, and God misses nothing, or perfect mercy. forgiveness for everything we've ever done wrong, and God misses nothing.

So there's the story in brief. God. Man. Jesus, cross and resurrection. Hey, Greg, it's it's easy to take 30 hours to explain that.

It's easy to write 3,000 pages explaining that. It takes a gift to explain that in three minutes and then open it up in less than 200 pages. But that's what you've done now on the radio and in the book, The Story of Reality: How the World Began, How It Ends, and Everything Important That Happens in Between. J.P. Moreland, another top apologist and professor, says Kochl's best and most important book to date.

I couldn't put it down. Johnny Erickson Toto, whom you know and love. Greg addresses the heartfelt plea of everyone who asks, Why am I here? I highly recommend the steering book. Sean McDowell, Josh McDowell's son.

Clarifying and insightful for believers, eye-opening and thought-provoking for non-believers, a book worth reading carefully. Greg, one of my staff members, when he saw the book come in, I said, Hey, you can borrow it. He's been devouring it, and you're one of his favorite apologists.

So I'm so glad you could join us on the air today. May the Lord give you great success in getting this message out. Thank you, Michael. That was very kind. They can get the book at str.org, by the way.

One of the places that's our website at standardreason str.org. And it's always a treat to talk with you, Michael. Thanks for the good work you're doing. Sure thing. God bless you.

Much appreciate it. All right, Greg Coco, the book, The Story of Reality. All right, friends, we come back. We are diving into the fray. Oh, I just during a break, I've been looking at online headlines.

Whoa, you talk about a volatile situation. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Welcome, welcome, friends, to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown.

So glad to have you on the broadcast today. I have been looking at headlines during the break on my show today in these previous 90 minutes, and things are volatile after the Donald Trump press conference. 866-34TRUTH 866-348-788. for uh drudge report. Front and center.

There's the CNN logo, red on black. And then the quote from Donald Trump during the press conference: You. Or Fake. News. Boom.

Then over on CNN. Uh big headline. Trump Sets. The tone. Then over on the Huffington Post.

So, Huffington Post is as far left as Drudge Report is right. In red, conflicts unleashed, then in black, at war with media and intel. And a picture of Donald Trump and a volatile-looking picture at that. Friends Things are shaking in ways that I have not seen In as long as I can remember, honestly in my memory, I cannot think of another time where there was this much shaking taking place from the top of our government down. Obviously, President Obama is still our president, gave his farewell speech last night.

I'm not going to get into that speech. And my goal over these eight years has not been to sit here and attack him every day. Issues come up that I have addressed. Otherwise, I do my best to avoid mentioning the president in a negative light. And that's for a number of reasons.

When there are issues that come up that concern me, burden me, that I feel specially to address, I do. But obviously, the man in the news and the man carrying the news is our president-elect, as would be the case with any incoming and outgoing presidents. And he has basically had it with intelligence leaks. Saying something is wrong and this ought not to be happening. Are there people against him in the intelligence agency?

Maybe they were always against him or maybe they're against him because of the way he slammed them recently. Is that it? Is it just part of the larger Washington establishment that is being taken on? You talk about something volatile. You talk about Donald Trump saying a BuzzFeed and then CNN, which claims, no, no, their reporting has been totally different and they're not just repeating slanderous, unverifiable reports like BuzzFeed did and alleging things about Trump that aren't true and alleging Russian involvement.

It's not true. No, no, we're doing better. I mean, this thing is really exploding. And Donald Trump saying, and you keep talking about fake news, you're fake media. Whoa, very intense.

But it's not just there. It's that stuff is exploding to the surface in terms of how people feel, in terms of people's viewpoints, and a lot of the identity politics now coming up with Senator Jeff Sessions and his hearings for Attorney General. And the old lies, from everything I can understand, they are old lies and false allegations against him being racist. It seems all the evidence is against it. A number of black pastors have come out on his behalf.

Senator Richard Booker, himself black, and from what I knew, worked together with Jeff Sessions on civil rights action last year, is saying that he can't be trusted on civil rights. This to me is the ultimate exposure of the whole identity politics that has been so divisive in America. And as one side has recently been defeated, the Liberal side, the Democrat side, the Obama Clinton side, the Liberal media side, it is not taking the defeat well and is now in a near hysterical state Certainly, it does not mean everything Donald Trump says or does is good or right. Certainly, it doesn't mean all the Republicans are right and all the Democrats are wrong. But what it does mean is that things are really being exposed and brought to the surface.

And to me, this presents a unique opportunity for the church. Hear me. We'll take this up when we come back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Since you're attacking us, can you Can you give us a question? No, Mr. President-elect, Mr. President-elect, since you are attacking our news organization, can you give us a chance? You are attacking our news organization.

Can you state categories? Mr. President-elect, can you state categorically? Mr. President-elect, can you give us a question?

You are attacking us. Can you give us a question? Don't be afraid. Can you give us a question? Can you stay categorically?

Yeah, I played that clip earlier in the broadcast. I wanted to play it again for everyone listening now. This is Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

So, President-elect Donald Trump holding a press conference at Trump Tower today, he refused to take a question from CNN senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta. He said, You are fake news. Your organization is terrible in the midst of going back and forth. Don't be rude. No, I'm not going to give you a question.

You are fake news. Acosta said this wasn't appropriate. Later in the press conference, Trump took a question from CNN reporter Jeremy Diamond. But you talk about a shaking taking place and As I look at it, friends, As I look at it from the spiritual viewpoint, this whole word Lance Walnow brought, others had brought similar words, but in Lance's word, the insight he felt was that Donald Trump would be a divine wrecking ball against everything that was politically correct.

Now, as I've often observed, you don't use a wrecking ball to renovate a room in your house. You use a wrecking ball to demolish something that should be totally torn down. I don't know if you've ever seen in a maybe a big city and you've got you've got an an old building that's been condemned and you're just going to clear it and you see this massive wrecking ball what it is and it swings in off a crane and psh within a few shots the building is demolished. May have taken many, many months to build. It may have been standing for more than a century, but in a matter of a few seconds, it's demolished.

That's what a wrecking ball does. When you are seeking to repair damage to a building, you don't use a wrecking ball. When you are seeking to renovate a part of your home, you don't use a wrecking ball.

So that's the issue. We must pray for God's restraint and God's wisdom for Donald Trump and those around him, those that will be part of his inner circle, those will be part of his cabinet and administration. We must pray for wisdom so that when the wrecking ball needs to swing, it will swing. And when it should not swing, it will not swing. Listen, you have.

Uh an anvil. and and and and you have a a hammer that's used for one thing And you have a very, very precise knife that's used by a surgeon for another thing. And the one cannot be substituted for the other. All right?

So. We need to pray because things are going to get more volatile. they are going to get more volatile in the days ahead, and the same could happen internationally. But that being said, I see this as really an extraordinary opportunity. For the church to seize the moment and rise up.

Do you agree with me? You see it the same way. 866-34TRUTH. This is an extraordinary opportunity for the church to rise up and take a stand. Why do I say that?

Because for so many years, we have been intimidated by the media. We have been intimidated by the left. we have felt outnumbered and outmanned. We're frustrated. You turn on ABC or CBS or NBC, the mainstream networks, and there's such a strong liberal slant.

And the worldview of the sitcoms and the dramas is often so antithetical to ours. And then you go over to the cable networks, and you've got CNN and MSNBC. You're watching sports on ESPN, there's going to be some liberal commentary about something that you're there for sports, not for politics. And then often on Fox, you see a certain conservative viewpoint, but then there'd be mixtures there. And then often it wasn't necessarily a biblical conservatism.

And you look at the New York Times and the Washington Post and USA Today, and you'd feel intimidated by all the secular media that's out there. And then Donald Trump comes along, says you're fake. You're corrupt, you're going down. And he goes right past them. and he basically makes the news.

He sets the news by what he tweets and by what he says.

Now, again, a lot of it is like bull in a china shop. I understand that. A lot of it is like divine wrecking bull or just wrecking bull. I understand that. So for example, Meryl Streep goes after him and let's just say.

That The whole charge, which I thought was true initially, but now I do question. Did he mock a disabled reporter? And he said, no, he's just mocking the guy groveling, or illustrating him groveling. And you see, he's done very similar things with hand motions when he's criticized others over the years for groveling. Either way.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt there. Our friends say, of course, he was mocking the guy's disability. It's a major issue I raised, and one of the reasons initially I said I couldn't vote for him. Of course, I did ultimately end up voting for him. But to be clear.

Let's say that he did not mock the reporter's disability. and he's being falsely accused of it by Meryl Streep. I could see. I could see. Him.

Saying Meryl Streep is a great actress. I want to make clear, though, I would never mock a disabled reporter for the hundredth time. I was talking about him groveling, and that's it, not addressed the rest of her speech, nothing else. I could see him doing that because it's a sensitive issue to many Americans. And if he says, Look, I didn't mock, I would never do that.

Okay, go ahead and say that because you're about to be the president. And a lot of people are offended by that and say, How could you do that? And they look at him the same way: you mock the disabled, you mock the immigrants, you hate the Muslims, and on and on. You hate women, you degrade women.

So, fine. Maybe say that and say Meryl Streep's a greatly accomplished actress, but she's quite wrong. I would never mock anyone's disability. Instead, that was not what he did. He said she's highly overrated, and he went after her.

That's the way he's going to do it.

So again, I'm not saying I would do everything the way he's done it, nor am I the incoming president, nor did you vote for me to be the incoming president. My point is. He has stood up to the bullies. He has stood up to the bullies, And he said, you're not gonna bully me.

Now you say, well, no, no, no. He is a bully himself. He I I understand the whole cycle. All I'm saying is this Please hear me. I am saying that there should be Uh uh a domino effect where the dominoes who've been knocked down and discouraged and and felt they were outgunned and outmanned and overwhelmed that there should be the reverse effect of the dominoes standing back up.

Now I wrote an article today. If you haven't read it, go to stream.org. It's on Donald Trump, the Johnson Amendment and the question of Christian cowardice. And in this article, I address this very, very simple question. Let's say the Johnson amendment is removed.

this amendment which limited freedom of speech from the pulpit specifically it prohibited certain tax exempt organizations from endorsing and opposing political candidates as summarized on Wikipedia. Right, it prohibited certain tax-exempt organizations, which would be churches and ministries, from endorsing and opposing political candidates. Let's say Donald Trump is successful. in removing this, all right? Uh Will Christian leaders be more outspoken?

on controversial moral, cultural, and political issues, And honestly, as I say in the article, I have my doubts. since I don't believe it's the Johnson amendment that has muzzled preachers across America. I believe it's the fear of man that's muzzled us. I believe it's our desire to be affirmed by the world that has silenced us. and until we repent of these sinful carnal attitudes our tongues will not be loosed.

We've been paralyzed, in other words, from the inside. Not the outside. and the removal of outward hindrances will not set us free. within it and reality the johnson amendment as i just showed you is quite limited in its scope So it doesn't prohibit pastors from speaking out against political corruption or gay activism or abortion or other things like that. It doesn't prohibit us from speaking out against a host of other moral and cultural issues, yet it's here that we've seriously failed people because these are the issues that so many of us studiously avoid.

I mean, look, who needs the controversy? Who wants to be vilified? Why stick your hand in the hornets? That's why I ask for trouble.

So Now that Donald Trump has basically said to the media, You're going to attack me, I'm going to attack you, I'm going to bypass you, and and you say something I believe is false, I'm going to expose you. It's it's changed the dynamic. And I am hoping That although to repeat Donald Trump's ways and methods and style. Or not What my style and method would be. In terms of, I believe there is a way that we must conduct ourselves as followers of Jesus.

And obviously, I would like to see Donald Trump be more presidential. At the same time, his taking on the bullies should embolden us. And not to be obnoxious, but to speak. the truth without apology. Gain the world, oh God of burning, cleansing.

Flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.

Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Yeah, Howard, I agree with your observation. There should always be an appropriate level of respect shown for the president. But the president or president-elect should act with an appropriate level of professionalism and respect as well. Yeah, and one feeds into the other positively or negatively. I debated a very liberal rabbi years ago, a gentleman that When I made the statement The difference between this rabbi and me is that I believe the Hebrew scriptures are the word of God.

He does not. He agreed with my assessment. That's how liberal he was. But when we went to do the debate, I've been doing debates for decades. And in the midst of the debate, even if the disagreements are very deep and intense, normally with two professional people speaking or two leaders speaking, there's a certain degree of decorum, respect within the debate.

Not always. Uh but basically what happened in this debate is it it kind of became a street fight. It's as if I trained, to use a sports analogy, I trained for a boxing match and ended up in a no-holds-barred street fight.

So, you know, when somebody is biting your ankles, you're going to kick them in the teeth.

So I did my best to behave properly. and to uphold my end of things, but I felt at the end of the night That it was messy in that respect. I didn't like the overall feel of it for that reason. And what's happened here, you can blame either. You can blame the media first, you can blame Donald Trump first, you can blame both or neither.

But we're in a now escalating, vicious cycle where things will get uglier and uglier. Remember, he did have a big meeting with different media leaders, including the New York Times. I think they had a separate meeting. And Is it going to be all out war? for the next four or eight years.

Or is there going to be some type of rapprochement, as they would say, and some level of okay, we're going to differ, but the hostility is going to disappear? Either way, Either way, I'm encouraging you. as a follower of Jesus to speak the truth without apology, not in a harsh way. not in an obnoxious way, but in an emboldened Yeah. 86634Truth.

I'm calling the Trump effect. the Trump effect. because a lot of the sacred cows are being exposed. That should ex encourage us, embolden us to expose them as well. Let's go to Brenda in Gastonia, North Carolina.

Welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown. I don't know if you can hear me. I'm not at home.

Can you hear me okay? Loud and clear.

Okay, I just wanted to make a comment about you were talking earlier about. Um President-elect Trump being accused of bullying, I don't know how anybody could deny. That he's a bully, based not only on the way he talked about that reporter, but I think about the Gold Star family. That grieves me. And what grieves me even more Is that my fellow believers continue to defend his actions?

It just breaks my heart. Yeah, well, here's what happens, Brenda. And I'm very sensitive to your point of view. It's something that my wife Nancy and I have talked about a lot. There are let's say three sides to this, okay?

There is who Donald Trump really is. with his strengths and his weaknesses, for better or worse.

Okay? Then there is The attack on him, which is ugly and over the top. And then there is the defense of him. Which is over the top the other way. In other words, when You see, let's say you believe that Donald Trump, with all his flaws and warts, is what we need to strengthen our security or strengthen our economy or make America strong.

And that's why you voted for him, right? And you think, hey, as strange as it is, he's become strongly conservative with pro-life issues and he's going to appoint good justices to the Supreme Court.

So despite all the warts and blemishes, I'm going to vote for him. All right. Now you have people coming against him like he's Adolf Hitler. You have people coming against him like he's ready to start a nuclear war. You have Hollywood elites flipping out.

So now you go to the other side and start to defend him as if he's this perfect saint. And I see it happening on both sides. all the time. And I think the same would happen with any leader. That those that love them love them out of all proportion, those that hate them hate them out of all proportion.

But Donald Trump is an especially, an especially volatile. controversial individual. And it's amazing, Brenda. I write articles and I get attacked for defending Trump. I write articles and I get attacked for criticizing Trump.

It's almost whatever you do, there's a problem.

So, in your view, What would be the right way to approach this so that we can diffuse the emotion? and really talk about The issues. How do we do that?

Well, I don't have a magic answer for that, but I just wish that he would. I just wish that he would behave like a person who is worthy to be our leader. That's all I wish, and nobody can make that happen. It has to be from him. Oh, and it like I said, it just bothers me that that no matter what he does, there are those who defend him.

Yeah, and the fact that it's one thing if you've just got some secular conservative who thinks he's the greatest. Thing to happen since the latest beer commercial, and they're all for Trump. It's another thing when people who love the Lord and would never defend that type of behavior. from their own spouse. or their pastor or even their own child.

are now defending it with the President. And that's where I think you have to say, hey, look, He's my president, whether I like him or not. He's my president. Just like Barack Obama was my president, he's my president. I'm praying for him.

I understand why a lot of people like him, but can you see these issues? We have to diffuse it. Nancy and I had a talk about the whole Meryl Streep Golden Globes. Talk, and I said, I agreed with her that a celebrity has every right to speak like anybody else. And let them use their celebrity to make their point.

I said the flip side is it's the hypocrisy of Hollywood, the double moral standards of Hollywood, and the elitism of Hollywood that people are reacting to.

So we had a very constructive conversation that could have been, if we had been not married and other people, it could have been volatile. because of of each side.

So I think what we have to do is just say, hey, I'm praying for Donald Trump. Uh God may have raised him up for this very purpose. I'm hoping he'll be a good president for America. Could you see this problem? Can you see how this is inappropriate or this could?

provoke unnecessary hostility. And and look, I'm not looking for him to be this smooth Politician who doesn't tell you anything. You know, whatever question you ask, you get the talking points. With Trump, I think you're going to get a real reaction, and he's going to address the issue. But, yes.

Would it be better? if there was a more presidential way in doing it. If less parties were unnecessarily offended, yes, so let's pray for it. Do I see it happening anytime soon? In the natural, no.

But with God all things are possible. And Brenda, just recognize A lot of your friends, maybe they feel our side's been beaten down for so long and now Donald Trump is going to be a champion of religious liberties. Therefore, he's a good guy no matter what he does. We got to do better. than that if we're going to be loyal to our faith and loyal to the Lord.

Thank you, Grenda, for sharing your heart. I appreciate it. Make sure to go to thelineoffire.org, find out how you can get free my book, Breaking the Stronghold of Food. My bottom line today, it's a time of shaking. It's a time for Christians to rise up with boldness.