A New Perspective on the Slaughter of the Canaanites; Why Israel Matters; and the Coming Solar Eclipse

It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday and we have some thoroughly fascinating guests joining us today. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. We are going to look at some of the most troubling passages in the Bible. In the Hebrew scriptures, passages because of which people have said, your God is a moral monster.

We're going to talk about these things in a moment with Professor John Walton. highly regarded Old Testament and Semitic scholar teaching at Wheaton University. He's written a new book that we're going to get into in a few minutes. But it is Thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

So this is a thoroughly biblical Jewish Old Testament Hebrew Bible subject.

So we're going to get into it today on a Thursday.

Well, it's going to take your calls. 866-34TRUTH 866-348-7 884. That is the number to call. 866-348-848. Seven, eight, eight, five.

Uh I have just been On the phone doing a radio interview, almost two hours of interviewing that just ended. moments ago and just now, looking at my computer, terror attack in Barcelona, at least thirteen reported dead. bodies in street After van strikes plaza crowd, Boy. More pain. more hatred, More suffering.

Do we have details on this yet? Again, I'm just looking at it. Many of you have been following this in the last few minutes. I'm just looking at it now. Do we know for sure that this is Islamic terror?

That would be the assumption. Have people taken credit for it? I'm just looking now. as well and we'll update as much as possible. Let me just say this.

America is hurting right now. All right. America is hurting. The world is shaking. This is when we God's people need to stand up.

And make a difference. This is when we, God's people, need to come with a message of hope. With a message of freedom. with a message of healing, with a message of life. As I'm looking at other headlines, it specifically says that this took place outside a kosher restaurant that ISIS is celebrating.

And now just another note being sent to me, two gunmen holding tourists hostage in Los Ramblas Bar, Los Ramblos Bar. Friends This is where We need God in our lives. Yeah, we always do. Always, 24-7. The world is messed up 24-7.

And the best day. The best day on the planet, people are dying and hurting and sinning and rebelling. on the best day. This is just symptomatic of the fallen world in which we live. But now is when, friends, we need to take hold of God.

Now is when we need to recover the life-giving truth of the gospel. This is when we need to shout out to the world, God has. A better way. Just finished a lengthy interview about my book, Saving a Sick America, which comes out next month. But the theme that was overwhelming through almost two hours of radio interviews.

was hope. Hope. Hope. It's the theme of my book because it's the theme of God's book, the Bible, because it is who God is. But can we really trust the scriptures?

Are they really reliable? Is the God of the Scriptures a moral figure or an immoral figure based on his own standards? When he called for the slaughter of the Canaanites, wasn't that an evil thing? Why should we be upset with a terrorist killing people in Barcelona if, hey, God called for the slaughter of the Canaanites. We're going to take that sensitive, difficult issue up with Professor John Walton when we come back.

As always, phones are open for your Jewish-related calls. 866-348-7884. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Minhashot, vehash niyot, vehakolot, bazniot, minakocha valhamigdal. Umi naru, ahletido, vehicle. Welcome to our third. Thirdly Jewish Thursday broadcast.

This is Michael Brown, 866-348-7884. With your relevant questions, my guest, Professor John Walton, for two decades he was professor of Old Testament at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago. He has long since been professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College in Graduate School, holds a PhD from Hemi Union College and is one of the most respected evangelical Old Testament scholars. He's written a book that perhaps deals with The most difficult moral question that believers are faced with today in terms of the Bible, namely, the God of the Old Testament. Ordering the slaughter of the Canaanites.

One atheist calls it divine evil. The new book, The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest by John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton. John, welcome back to the line of fire.

Thanks so much for joining us today. It's great to be here, Michael. Let me ask first, if this should be A moral question for us. I saw a video where Pastor John Piper was asked about this, and his response as a Calvinist was, God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. We all deserve death.

If he wants to slaughter men, women, and children, that's his prerogative to do so.

So it's really not a moral issue. I understand where he's coming from, but do you think that atheists and other sensitive readers of Scripture might have a reason to say this is a moral issue? I certainly think they might have a reason to say that, given how they interpret the passage and given the actions as they understand them. I'm not sure that I would agree with doctor Piper that we should just kind of give God a carte blanche and say this is not a Not a moral issue. All right, so the narrative, as most of us would understand it, the Canaanites and the other nations inhabiting the promised land were exceedingly wicked, and God waited several hundred years as he tells Abraham or Abram in Genesis 15 that the iniquity of the Amorites has to Come to its full measure.

And then he orders the children of Israel to wipe out the Canaanites, to put them to the sword, men, women, and children. If there were more distant nations that wanted peace, that would be fine, but they were to be wiped out in their entirety. And that's what the children of Israel did. They didn't always succeed, and they ended up dwelling together with some Canaanites and others. But that's the narrative.

Are you saying that they're. valid scriptural reasons to question the simplicity of that narrative. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I would disagree with it on nearly every point. All right, go ahead, let's go point for point.

Well, Genesis fifteen, we spent a whole chapter on that. basically showing that it doesn't say anything like that. Then we spent a whole couple of chapters on the Hebrew term charam. Which is the word that is generally translated utterly destroy. and demonstrated, I think, persuasively, that that doesn't mean that.

We also have the Uh the ideas of the Uh The what God says he's doing. wants the Canaanites to be cleared out. He's going to drive them out. is the most common terminology. Finally, we we Tried to demonstrate to that Um When we think about the retribution principle, the righteous will Prosper, the wicked will suffer.

If that's what's going on in the conquest that the wicked Canaanites are being destroyed, we would expect some retribution principle language to be used, but it's not. And so there's nothing to demonstrate that there's that connection So again, that's just a very quick shot on some of the key points. Most of those we spent whole chapters discussing. All right, so let's start then in Genesis 15, where you say that it's absolutely not saying that the iniquity of the Amorites has to reach its full measure before God will drive them out, because you'd look at that and say, well, that's how patient and merciful God is. They were wicked, but he waited till their wickedness reached a certain level before he brought judgment on them.

You say that's not what the passage says at all.

So let's open it up.

Okay. The first of all, it talks about And I'll work from NIV translation just to show the differences. You could go to any translation and see the same thing.

Okay, so in the NIV, it talks about in the fourth generation, your descendants will come back here for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure. We first of all tackle that word sin that's translated sin. That's avon, the Hebrew term. And what we find, for instance, Genesis four, Cain says, my avon is too great for me to bear. That's what God's doing, not what He's doing.

with the Sodom and Gomorrah. it's not their avon that they're punished for. Avon rather is the idea that you have to get out of here lest the avon of the city catch up to you. That's not the sin of the city catching up to them. It's the judgment on the city.

And so in that sense, the avone Does not pertain to the sin of the Amorites. It pertains to the calamity. destination that has been decreed for them. That is, they will lose that land, but it's not because that's some kind of sin.

Now when we talk about has not yet reached its full measure, that not yet doesn't refer to an increasing scale that's getting greater and greater. That Hebrew phrase, everywhere that it's used, refers to reaching a plateau, which is then going to be an ongoing status quo. And so it's not that it's growing and growing and growing, it's rather that it is leveled off. There's nothing happening right now. And then that last phrase, full measure.

Uh not its full measure. Um is used in accounting contexts. where it says that it's not being tallied up.

So the calamity that's eventually to come on the on the Amorites is not currently being tallied up. It's reached a plateau.

So last comment, the Amorites here. Notice it says the Amorites, not the Canaanites and not the whole grocery list. The Amorites in this context, chapter fourteen, These are Abram's allies and friends. They helped him go to battle against the kings of the East. And these are his friends, not his enemies, not the foreigners.

He's the foreigner among them. Therefore, we would translate the verse It won't be until after your lifetime, that's fourth generation, that's what it always is, it won't be until after your lifetime is over that your family will return here because the destiny of destruction that has been decreed for your friends and allies has been and will continue to be deferred. That's a very different translation. Mm. And if I'm just thinking out loud here as I'm looking at the Hebrew with you.

So The word door, which is generation, scholars have had to look at and try to come up with cognates from Akkadian or other languages or different usage to try to say that it could refer to a hundred-year period, hence 400 years. What you're saying is no, fourth generation. It's got Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and then you've got after that would be the fourth generation. That's all it's talking about. The Uh The four hundred years is mentioned earlier in the chapter.

And when people have seen that for generations, they've tended to think that it's the same thing. It's not. Tebra uses fourth generation in very particular ways, and again, we go through all of them and demonstrate it. And so in that sense, we're not dealing with the same statement in both places. This basically says there's going to be peace in Abram's time.

Mm. Got it. All right. So let's look at this. We've just got a minute and a half before the break.

For those who don't know John Walton, he is not some guy posting on the Internet something else that he saw on YouTube. He is a respected Semitic and biblical scholar. If someone says to you, come on, man, this is special pleading. You're saying if they get the lost world of the Israelite conquest, you'll find out it's the opposite of special pleading. It's rather looking again at what scripture actually says.

In other words, you're giving chapter, verse, lexicon for each thing that you're saying. Absolutely. The strength of an interpretation is in its evidence. And therefore, we don't just make a statement, this is what it should be. We present all of the lexical evidence in biblical usage to demonstrate that this is what these words mean.

Got it. All right, when we come back, we've got to explore this charim issue because what we normally hear is if you look in the Hebrew Bible and the ancient Near East, it meant to utterly destroy, to put something to the sword, to put it under a ban. Thirty seconds before the break, was there ever a time that God told the Israelites to kill men, women and children? Yes, there are statements. There are a couple of them scattered around, usually not using Carum.

the other language, but of course, that's what has to be done if the people resist being driven out. And we'll need to talk about that after the break, the importance of clearing them out. Got it. All right, friends, we come back. We'll talk further with John H.

Walton together with J. Harvey Walton. They have written The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest. And this, friends, this is major. because in many ways this is an Achilles heel.

It's an area where we are constantly attacked and hey, let God be God. Whatever he does is right and good, but that's the thing. What he does is right and good. Let's understand what he does, what he commands. Study this out.

Look at it. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on Thurley Jewish Thursday. This is Michael Brown, my special guest. Dr.

John Walton, his new book with J. Harvey Walton, The Lost World of the Israelite conquest just hot off the press right now, answering the question, is God a moral monster? And looking carefully at the Hebrew Bible texts in their original context and language. And friends, this is one of these things where I'm encouraging you, look at the book, study the evidence, which I plan to do. I was very excited to see this title come out, and evaluate it.

So, John, you know, we grew up learning this and hearing this from other scholars, that cherem was the ban to put something under the ban of destruction, charam to put it to the sword of destruction. You're saying that that is not necessarily what the word means, and therefore we are making the wrong assumption, which is that all of the town cities in the land of Canaan, Israel went through there and wiped out men, women, and children, period, end of subject, no possible mercy, no possible solution, no possible peace because of the cherem. You're saying that's a misunderstanding. I am. We weren't the first ones to recognize that harem doesn't have that destructive element inherently in the meaning of the word.

Jacob Milgram, probably the foremost of all commentators on Leviticus, had already suggested that harem means to make something ineligible for human use. And that's demonstrated in the assessment throughout the Hebrew Bible. We also find numerous examples of the same kind of strategy in among other peoples at this time.

So, the idea of making it ineligible for human use means that those people have to be cleared out of there. Those cities are not for human use, they need to leave. The people themselves are not for human use. That is, Israelites cannot intermarry with them and they cannot take them as slaves. That would be making human use of them.

They are to drive them out. Of course, if the people don't want to be driven out, then there's no option but war. And that's because There's a more important issue at stake, and that issue is not so Israel can have the land. The important issue is it's Yahweh's land And Yahweh is going to dwell there. And therefore, those people have to be cleared out.

because their existence would be threatened by being in close proximity to Yahweh's presence, and Israel is to be hosts for the presence of Yahweh. In that sense, it's what today we would call an act of eminent domain. that people have to leave to make room for a larger, more important, significant thing. And in that sense, what they're doing in what we call the conquest. We called it that on the cover because that's what it's usually referred to, but it's not a good word.

what they're really doing is clearing space for the presence of God. Mm. So if I'm thinking again, words like legaresh, that's to drive out, lehorish. dispossess You smash the altars, you do those things, but does it say in passage after passage, and I'm thinking out loud, you know, going through the passages in my mind, when it says drive out, dispossess, smash the altars, don't intermarry with them, is it also saying in all of those, and kill everyone, men, women, and children?

So that's the obvious question. If it's not saying that, is that synonymous with drive out? And there's even a rabbinic interpretation. That even though the scriptures seem to indicate this was just for distant nations to offer them peace, not war, that there was even, look, you can submit or leave rather than be killed, that that was offered even to the immediate nations.

So how then should we understand the larger issue? It's God's land. He has the right to it. the sin of the Canaanites was defiled. Do you downplay their sinfulness or is that inherent in the narrative as well?

No, I downplay their sinfulness. The place is like in Leviticus 18, when it's talking about these behaviors. It's using what we've identified as a motif. of the Um Of the barbarian, the invincible barbarian. And that kind of rhetoric is found widely in ancient Near Eastern texts.

and you kind of stereotype into categories. uh the the ones that you're going to be fighting. And that's the type of language that's used there. We find that Israel uses the same kind of language for conquest that is used throughout the ancient Near East. And so in that sense, they're not listing documentable crimes that the Canaanites have committed.

They're giving a grocery list of standard terminology.

Now, some of them the Canaanites certainly are guilty of, they worship idols. But the fact is The Bible never calls on the Canaanites or any other people, not Israel, to not worship idols. It's Israel's covenant relationship. that leads them to not worship idols. No one else is held accountable for that.

And so, in that sense, this idea that it's using this rhetoric of. Conquest that we know well from the ancient world. To talk about how the Israelites are supposed to drive out these invincible barbarians. Got it. And Again, the big issue is this is going to be Yahweh's land, and he is going to dwell there and make his presence known.

Therefore, Israel has to host it. Exodus 25, make a sanctuary for me so I can dwell in your midst. And the whole land was to be his land. He even refers to it as his inheritance. John, I'm sure you've taught your students this at Wheaton.

What effect does it have on them when suddenly they're reading these texts in a different light? It's certainly something that at times brings hope and relief and things of that sort. Other times, of course, if I can't spend enough time on it, it's easy for it to bring confusion. And because it's just a technical complicated issue. And that's why we wanted to write the book, to try to put all the information out for people to understand.

We should be able to understand that this isn't about killing people. This is about eliminating a Canaanite identity from the land because that identity will be damaging for Israel in her covenant relationship. This is about Israel having these influences. and the Canaanites should have gotten the idea. That this is something bigger going on, and we need to make space.

In fact, Rahab's speech. does exactly that.

Now you know, maybe they shouldn't have gotten the idea, but Rahab's speech suggests that they all know the power of Yahweh. Got it. All right, friends, the new book, The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest. I wish I had a few hours to pick your brain on this, but I don't need to because I have your book and I'm eager, eager to get into it.

So, friends, again, John H. Walton and J. Harvey Walton, The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest. And don't just make an assumption. I can't be.

Read it, study it, look at it, go through the evidence, and come to your conclusions. Hey, thank you for doing the hard work on this. I look forward to getting into the book myself.

Okay. God bless you. All right, friends. When we come back, 866-34TRUTH, I am going straight to the phones and I am going to take your calls.

So if you have a Hebrew-related question, a Jewish-related question, Anything that ties in with the theme of Thurly Jewish Thursday. And yeah, we field questions relating to Islam as well. Give me a call, 866-348-7884. Shake the nation. Change the world.

Change the world. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, friends, to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown. And I just want to say candidly, That Some of what Professor Walton said.

said, challenges understandings I've had. He is a respected Old Testament Semitic scholar. and he made some points on the air that really get me thinking that I would love to be true as well.

So, I'm eager to dig into the book more. Not even having him on the air, it was a book as soon as I saw it, I ordered because of my interest, or as soon as I'd see a book like that, I'd order it immediately.

So, sometimes I have a guest on and they're saying something I don't really agree with, but I don't want to push back strongly at that moment. I want to digest it and think about it and then raise some issues and questions later.

Sometimes they're going to push back aggressively right as they're speaking. But he raises some very important points that I'm going to look into and Some of the vocabulary here, drive out, is drive out different than exterminate. I would say. I would say. So much food for thought.

And again, Terrorist attack in Barcelona, Spain, hostages being held. Ugh. People dead, wounded. More trauma. more hate.

And we'll get you more details on that as soon as we have them. 866-348-7884. Let us start in Lebanon, Connecticut. Alan, welcome to the line of fire. It's good to be welcome, Dr.

Brown. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you again today. You bet. Thank you. I've got two premises I'd like you to comment on.

very grievous to me about the rise of May this movement be forgotten, except in intimate neo-Nazism and other things in Charlottesville. I've been to Charlottesville. Um Act 1726 And Deuteronomy 328 say There really isn't any race. We all come from one person. And the second one is.

Can we pray according to Genesis 27, 29? That the curse would come upon these people that do this. The curse that I understand a midrash that I heard or an explanation is just to diminish them. Yeah, so Genesis 27, 29, of course, was. The curse that was spoken.

It's the blessing that Isaac spoke over Jacob when Jacob stole the birthright from Esau and stole the blessing here. Let people serve you and nations bow down to you. Be Lord over your brothers, and may your mother's sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you, and blessed be everyone who blesses you. In my mind, the Midrash is downplaying that the Jewish interpretive, or one of the Jewish interpretive understandings, is downplaying that, because curse is very strong.

It's stronger than just diminish. But here's the question. Should we pray what are called the impregnory psalms? The psalms of judgment? May you be destroyed.

May the neo-Nazis be destroyed? For example, in Jewish theology, Hitler and the Nazis, they were the latest manifestation of Amalek. And Amalek, of course, we read of in Exodus 17 that they fought the children of Israel. And God said, all right, you're going to pay for this. We just come out of Egypt.

We're stragglers. And we're going to pay for this. You're going to pay for what you've done.

So that this is Amalek, the ancient enemy of Israel, raising its head again, and we should curse the Nazis. What about the idea that we're supposed to pray, Father, forgive them, for they know what to do with it does it apply to Nazis? They sort of knew what they were doing.

So where do we draw the line? To me, the best thing to do is pray, Lord, your kingdom come. and your will be done. on heaven as it is on earth. Lord, your kingdom come.

to neo-Nazis and your will be done. Does that mean destruction? Wipe them out? Does that mean salvation? Does that mean restraint?

That's for God to sort out. Because there are neo-Nazis today that are going to be saved tomorrow. The neo-Nazis today are going to have their hateful ideology, but never pick up a finger to hurt someone. And there are others that are murderous. Let God be God.

That's how I pray. Not just Lord, save them, but Lord, your kingdom come. That may mean judgment. Let God determine. Thank you, sir.

Give us strict to always do what's right. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.

Since the subject of neo-Nazis is ever before us. Let me speak again as plainly and clearly as I can about neo-Nazis white supremacists. 866-348-7884. This is Michael Brown and It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday. I'm about to go back to the phones.

Take more of your conversation. cause. But before I do that I wish that President Trump from day one had handled things somewhat differently than he did with Charlottesville. And I'm working on an open letter to the President that I'm praying and trusting will get into his hands. And I have a reason to believe that it could get into his hands.

I understand what's going on. I understand what he may have initially seen. And here and he knows the insidious nature of the radical left and the violent nature of the radical left and some of the radical funding behind it and things like that. And he sees combatants going back and forth. Again, you have to look at the context.

Wait a second, wait a second. These were neo-Nazis and white supremacists. And chanting against Jews and others. Yeah, others came and there was violence both ways. Yes, but but you just have to start with because of what the march was.

utterly renouncing that, speaking against it. and then saying, Now look, we understand you're upset about it, but don't resort to violence against it. And take it from there, right? I won't get into everything that he said and in hindsight ways that it could have been said better and why I understand he said certain things. But let's recognize two things.

Number one is There were not a million people marching in Charlottesville. There were 500. It's 500 too many, but there were 500. They had a legal right to, but 500 too many in terms of what I'd like to see in America. That's number one.

Number two Racial hatred remains seething under the surface. It has been from every quarter for years. on both sides, on different sides, multiple sides. And we all need to work together against That.

So right now some of these movements are getting even more attention and they do represent an ugly, despicable side of our nation. But they are still a small minority of people, just like you have Say, black supremacists. That's not your average African American or anywhere near that.

Okay? You're dealing with a militant, ugly, violent faction. Yeah, numbers-wise, because there are many more whites in America, there are going to be more of these people. But to make it, this is the average Trump supporter, the average evangelical Christian. No, no, no.

Let us not listen to the media's portrayal as if This represents Tens of millions of people who are the main Trump supporters know that's a media lie. But the evil of neo-Nazis white supremacists, KKK, that remains evil. And we all stand together against it. All right, let us go back to the phones this time in Chicago. Mordecai, thanks for calling the line of fire.

Hey, Dr. Baum, thank you for taking my call. How are you doing today? Very well. Thank you, sir.

Excellent. I have a quick question, please. I am beginning my research on Isaiah 53. Yeah. And obviously, it's going through chapter 40 and on.

Um What I'm so my question is. If I understand the Christian position correctly, we were supposed to accept the Messiah, or well, we were supposed to accept the Messiah when he arrives and not reject him. Reading as HTT3, it seems as though the speakers of Isaiah fifty three are receiving the benefits of the Messiah Despite rejecting him, how do I understand this? Surely this is recognizing, this is written by inspiration of the Spirit, of course, as I assume we would both agree studying Scripture. And this is our people looking back and recognizing how we misunderstood the Messiah when he came, how we thought he was dying for his sins, whereas he was really dying for our sins, and there was healing for us at the cost of his wounds.

And it would be, that's why at the revelation of the Messiah at the end of the age, Zechariah 12, 10, for example, for Hebetu Eli to Shedikara, they'll look to me that they've pierced, that there'll be great mourning and repentance in the nation when we realize that the one that we thought was the cause of our suffering or the head of the Catholic Church who persecuted us in this evil imposter, etc., that he was actually our Messiah. And that's why the grief and pain will be so great. And that's what Isaiah 53 is reflecting back. And of course, a traditional Jew would read the end of Isaiah 53. 52 as speaking of a future exaltation of the servant of the Lord to the shock of the nations of the world, and it's also to the shock of the people of Israel, and they realize who he is.

So if we take that view that it's Israel speaking in fifty-three one through, I think, nine or ten. Um it's still once the servant is exalted Israel is looking back and they realize what happened, but they still didn't acquire belief in him before that because they still benefited from the death. Where does the belief come in? Yeah, well the benefit from the death is not there until we recognize it. You know the rabbinic concept of the death of the righteous atones for the sins of the generation.

There's not benefit unless there's repentance from that generation. As I understand it. In other words, someone innocent suffered for the sins of others, but there must be repentance joined together with that if God's mercy is to come to that generation.

So, for example, the Jewish people in the Messiah's day who rejected him when he came, they suffered the consequences of it. The temple was subsequently destroyed. We've been exiled just like we were exiled for rejecting the law of Moses at different times in our history.

So, yeah, we have been without that benefit. We have not benefited from what he's done. The small remnant, the 7,000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal, to use God's terminology, to Elijah, they've benefited from it. But the rest of the nation hasn't benefited. But at the end of the age, those who repent, or those who repent today, will benefit from it.

Right, so for sure for sure, I mean, we we both agree that repentance is a is, I guess, either prerequisite or one of the main elements in returning to God. Um But I'm not. Maybe I'm having trouble saying it in the context of this passage. I mean, not repentance, but. That the requirement to believe based on Isaiah fifty-three.

Because they're not saying they believed in him, they're saying looking back, we realize that despite our rejection, He's still covered for us.

So it seems like those Jews today who don't accept Jesus. will still benefit from his death despite all this time that they ignored him.

Well, I would love it if that was the case, sir. I would love it if every one of our people through the ages would still benefit from his death, even though some of us were ignorant of him and others rejected him. But it does start, 53.1, right? Miha, Minnesota Shimu'atenu, who has believed our report.

So it's talking about the importance of this message. And I see it, sir, as throughout history, this chapter is shouting to each generation, to Mordecai, and to others, have you believed? Have you believed? It's an appeal to believe. Yes, it says, You could say at the cost of his wounds, we were healed, or at the cost of his wounds, there's healing for us.

In other words, it's there for us to take advantage of, but we must turn in faith and repentance. Otherwise, we don't benefit from it. Just like on the The sacrifices yeah, and the sacrifices on Yom Kippur and Leviticus 16, they were made for the nation, right? But unless I joined together and humbled myself that day, the the sacrifice would not benefit me. Sure.

So we agree that repentance is of prime importance, and there are various passages that attest to that, such as I believe Deuteronomy 30 mentions that. Um but in if one it's regarding belief though, if we get back to Isaiah fifty-three. who would have believed our report. And the word belief appears in terms of this report that we're hearing nothing to do with believing in this person who just died. I don't mean to beat a dead horse.

I'm having difficulty seeing. the Christian message in the words of the in the words of the text. Yeah, sure, sure. No, I don't take you as being obtuse or argumentative at all. Not in the least.

So number one, it starts 52.13, that the servant will be highly exalted. But will first suffer terrible disfigurement, right? And then this message ultimately will cause kings to put their hands on their mouth. And then the question is: who has believed our report, namely that this one that we thought was dying for his sins, was dying for our sins? Who's believed that?

That is the gospel. In other words, when a Christian preacher stands up to preach, that's his message. Do you believe this? This is what happened. The Messiah took our place.

He was the ultimate atoning sacrifice. He himself became an asham, a guilt offering. Who believes this? That's the message we're shouting to the world. That's the message Isaiah 53 is shouting to you.

Do you believe? Who has believed this? This is the report that we're giving. We were wrong about him. We thought he was dying for his sins.

We thought he was being punished by God. Actually, he was being punished for our sins because of God's mercy. He took the stroke that should have been us. He died. God raised him up.

Who believes that?

So tell you what, stay right there, all right? And by the way, if you'd like a book. That I've written about the messianic prophecies in general, where I take a lot of time on Isaiah 53. I'm happy to send it to you as a gift. If you'd like that, Howard's gonna come on, all right?

And get your name and address. Only if you want. We won't put you on any mailing list or anything. If you don't want it, that's fine. But I'm happy to send you volume three.

of my series on answering Jewish objections to Jesus. Stay there, I'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. All right, well, Shina Mordecai's gone. Not sure what happened there, we went to offer him Volume three of my series on answering Jewish objections to Jesus. But Mordecai, if you're still listening. Uh I I hope it's clear.

I hope the message is clear. There are many Jewish Friends, colleagues of mine, many who came to faith reading that chapter. Or that was the chapter that opened their eyes. In fact, when I first showed it to my dad, who was a very level headed man, he actually got angry. as if, you know, what's that doing in our Bible?

That's about Jesus Christ that we don't believe in. And one of my friends showed the passage to his dad. And his dad said, No, no, I don't want to see the New Testament. I want to see our Bible. And he said, Dad, this is the Bible I was given at my bar mitzvah.

Here's the signature of the rabbi in the front.

Somebody changed it. We hear that all the time because it seems to lay out the message so clearly so may the God that we revere God of our fathers May he Open up the truth of Scripture to you as you study these issues. But thank you for allowing me to comment and for giving me a call. My assumption is that Mordecai is an Orthodox Jew. Obviously, that's the way we talk and interact, so that's my assumption.

866-34TRUTH. We go to Monterey, California. Ben, welcome to the line of fire. Hi, Dr. Brown.

I have a quick question.

So I was in Israel a couple of months ago and uh stayed with an Orthodox Jew and such a great experience. We got to experience Sabbath with him and Um, yeah, I I guess we were just kind of talking about theology and things like that. And he mentioned something about You know, uh I guess Orthodox Jews, or maybe in Judaism, they don't really emphasize salvation or the afterlife. Uh do you know what that's about? Like uh Yeah, we we focus so much on well, is this person saved, that person's not saved or Yeah, and he was a little bit more.

If you go through the Hebrew scriptures, if you go through the Old Testament, you don't find the categories of saved and lost. You find the categories of righteous and wicked. Blessed and cursed, But you don't find categories like saved and lost. Salvation in the Old Testament is often national salvation. God will save Israel from its enemies.

It is individual physical salvation. God will deliver me from my foes. You know, the same word, save, deliver. And there are spiritual dimensions to it as well. But the normal concept would be: my sins gotten me in a mess.

My sin has gotten me in a mess. And I need God to save me from that mess and forgive my sin. But the primary emphasis would be in this world. That's what the Torah is about, life in this world, living out a life that pleases God. Here are his commandments.

Here's how we keep them. And it's only little by little that God reveals things about eternity. to Israel.

So it's not till you get to the book of Daniel, the 12th chapter, that you have an explicit verse about some will be raised to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. It's not till you get to Isaiah 25 and 26 that they're very, very clear statements about resurrection from the dead.

So yes, there are concepts of the afterlife in the Bible, in the Hebrew scriptures, but the emphasis is not as strong there.

So in short, the concepts in the New Testament don't contradict what we have in the New Testament. New Testament, Old Testament don't contradict each other. Rather, the New Testament now builds on. Everything that's been in the Old Testament and opens up eternity to us and shows us in eternal fashion what it means to be saved, what it means to be delivered. Look at Jesus as the deliverer.

And instead of the question, are you saved? which is like a religious category now. Are you saved? Are you saved? It's almost like what denomination are you, or what church do you go to, or whatever.

All right, look at it. Are you delivered? Have you been set free from sin? Have you been brought out of captivity and bondage? Are you a child of God?

Do you have the hope of eternal life? It's the whole package. It's not simply get saved so your sins are forgiven and you go to heaven forever. It's get delivered from sin and guilt and bondage so that you can live for God in this world and then continue. to live for him in the world to come.

By the way, Ben, my book, 60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices, will give you some insight on a wide range of questions that relate to this as well. 60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices. Hey, Ben, thank you for calling. I appreciate it. Let's go to Melbourne, Florida.

Tony, welcome to the line of fire. Hello, doctor Brown. This is Tony. Yes. Doing hey man, good hey, I was really enjoying uh one of your videos that you guys did in uh uh in Israel.

And on YouTube, yeah, it's it's great, man. Thank you. Praise God. Praise God. Thank you so much.

You've been a huge, I gotta say, without you, there would be no game. And pray, keep us in prayer. We've been invited back actually sometime in the future by a secular hip-hop artist in Israel who lives over with us.

So we're praying for the opportunity. Hey, just before we go any further, we've used some of your music sometimes on our Thurly Jewish Thursday shows, but many folks, I'm going to assume, don't know who. who you are.

So just give the briefest of introductions and where folks can find your material. Yeah, um we are uh Multi-ethnic Messianic Jewish hip-hop group out of Florida, raising the Messianic Jewish community. and movement, and we have a a strong passion to see Yeshua proclaimed to all nations. And if you want a basic overview of what we do, if you go to YouTube, you can look up TBN, how that came. We were.

Interviewed by TBN in Israel, and they asked, you know, bas we were able to unpack sort of our mission and our focus there. But yeah, you can go to Chazakim.com, H-A-Z-A-K-I-M. Instagram, Facebook, you know, all that stuff. You can find us. But yeah, that's our heart is to communicate the gospel, and we find this genre to be completely awesome, a perfect vehicle to propagate uh theology.

Yeah, and you can you can get a lot of words in with what you're doing, can't you? Absolutely. Yeah, you can cram a a whole sermon basically in our music.

So it really is a blessing. And again, without you, we wouldn't be here. We've taken and borrowed, I hate to say it, but so much of our theology and our apologetics that we put in our music comes from your writing.

So we appreciate it.

Well, Tony, that really blesses me to hear that. In fact, I was on one of your projects. I thought you were going to have me rap. Actually, you took some excerpts from one of my messages. But we try that one time.

Tell you what, here's what I want to do. I've got a guest coming on in a few minutes. But if you stay right here, we've got a whole new wave of listeners that are going to come in right at the beginning of the next hour. Stick around. I want to reintroduce you to them and even talk about.

The fruit you're seeing among hip-hop, among young Israelis using hip-hop. We'll talk about that and then I'll try to answer your question before our guest comes on.

So, friends, check out chazakim.com, h-a-z-a-k-i-m.com, or go on YouTube and look for TBN Hazakim. You'll be blessed. Be exposed to what these two young men have to offer. And, friends, I've got some urgently important articles and videos. They're up on our website, askdr.

Brown, a-k-d-rbrown.org. Join us. there right now. It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday and we have some thoroughly fascinating guests joining us today. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr.

Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Friends, another terrorist attack has taken place this in Barcelona, Spain. 13 dead. in what jihad watch Dot org is calling Vehicular Jihad, a Spanish identity card with Arabic name found inside the van attack. Our world continues to shake.

And a lot of the shaking Is through hatred and violence, we as the people of God have a better way. We have the ways of God and truth, and we resist this violence in the name of our Savior Jesus. This is Michael Brown. Welcome to the line of fire. It is Thoroughly Jewish Thursday.

In a few minutes, I am going to speak with a fascinating guest, author of a new book, Israel Matters. Right now, I've got a young colleague on the air. He is half of Hazakim. These are multi-ethnic brothers who are Messianic Jews and are hip-hop artists who have an amazing theological message that they get out in hip-hop. Tony on the phone with me now has kindly said that without me, Chazakim wouldn't exist.

Not because I gave him the keys to hip-hop rap, but because they drew a lot of the theology from our materials.

So I'm honored and blessed to be part of it. Tony, what are you seeing in Israel among young people? Obviously, there's a genre that transcends culture and country. What kind of fruit are you seeing? Oh, absolutely.

So we were in Israel last summer, late last summer, and we planned on going back. We had some medical issues within the group, so we've had to postpone it. We're working on some new material. But it was fascinating. We met a lot of young Israelis.

We passed out some CDs. In our conversations with young Israelis, you know, there's a real openness in the new generation. There's not this. The stigma's there, but it's not as as as as big of an issue. And so we were like almost every Israeli we spoke to, and we had many, many conversations, Dr.

Brown. Almost every single one of them has a Messianic Jewish believer in their family, a roommate, a friend.

So it's like it's not as rare for Israelis now to know close, you know, uh, people in their lives that are believers. And um and yeah, so after our last trip, we come back And I'm reached out. I don't want to get the the guy's name, but he's a pretty well known rapper, hip hop artist in Israel, and they got a hold of our album. They love the album, and they're like, When can we do some shows together? This guy's not a believer at all.

And so we would essentially be sharing the stage at concerts where potentially hundreds or more young people would be there in Israel and we'd have the ability and I think I think the beauty of this genre is that it's it's okay to be offensive, it's okay to be like For people to disagree with you, you can be as sort of brash as you want and open as you want. and aggressive as you want.

So things that we may not be able to say with a with a with an acoustic guitar or over loudspeaker, because it's in hip hop form and it's in musical form, we have the ability to communicate these things, you know, and people respect it.

So it's been beautiful. It's been great. We're seeing real interest in Yeshua in the land, and we believe. It's in keeping with the prophecies, you know, where Yeshua said that when he returns, it will be because Jerusalem welcomes him back. And of course, Zechariah pointing out that they will look upon the Messiah and a river of cleansing will be poured out.

So we think we're in that time. Tremendous.

Well, that is wonderful to hear. Listen, you had a quick question for me. Maybe we can get to it real fast about the Feast of Tabernacles. Yeah. Yeah, so Zechariah 14 points out that at the end of the Millennial Kingdom or at the end of the Messianic era, or during the Messianic era, that all the nations will.

uh will keep Sukkot. Will come to Jerusalem to. And I don't know, I know that you and others have alluded to the idea that that feast, being the final feast in the calendar, is fulfilled in Messiah's reign, the thousand-year reign, the millennial reign. And I just wanted to point out, I wanted to get your opinion about this. I was reading Revelation chapter 21, verse 3, and it hit me that perhaps.

The reason it's being kept during the Millennial Kingdom is that we're looking forward to the new Jerusalem and perhaps because it says the tabernacle. All right, tell you what. We'll come back. Oh God of burning, cleansing. Flame.

Say It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Why get so concerned about Israel?

Why focus on Israel? Is Israel more important than every other nation? Don't we care about the Poor around the world? Don't we care about other peoples? Don't we care about all kinds of Uh don't don't we Don't we care about every nation the same?

Why make such a fuss about Israel. I'm about to be joined by Dr. Gerald McDermott, author of most recently, Israel Matters. Why Christians must Must, notice that word, must think differently about the people and the land. I was just finishing a call with.

Tony from Hazakim about the Feast of Tabernacles, and just in short, it's clear that the Feast of Tabernacles. Also speaks of the harvest in the nations, hints of it within the Hebrew scriptures, things that the rabbis recognized as well. And we see the culmination of that, that Israel's salvation brings blessing to the whole world, and it ends up centering around the city of Jerusalem to which the Messiah returns.

So, Tony, we'll have to take that up more fully on another call. But I want to turn our attention to Dr. Gerald McDermott. He holds a PhD from the University of Iowa and is Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School, author or editor of numerous books. Gerald, great to have you on the line of fire with us.

Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Dr. Brown. It's my great honor to be here.

Well, thank you, sir. Ha have you always held to this theology? Have you always recognized the importance of Israel in God's sight and for the life of the church? No, I was a classic supersessionist, a classic replacement theologian. for many years uh until about twenty, twenty five years ago when I started going to Israel.

And my um guide who is doing a PhD at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. started very patiently and respectfully Uh Um questioning some of the things I was saying in my lectures to my groups that I was taking around Israel. And they got me thinking, and they got me researching and studying. And over the course of about 10, 15 years, I came to reject Replacement theology. All right, so your theology, the way you held to it before, would be basically that God had purposes for Israel, which culminated in Jesus coming into the world.

Israel rejected the Messiah. The gospel went to the nations, and now the church has taken the place of Israel in God's economy. God can save individual Jews, but there's not a chosen nation of Israel that God's working with and regathering to the land. Is that basically how you saw it? Is that an oversimplification?

Yeah, no, that's a perfect representation of. Uh what I thought. And this book, Dr. Brown, that I just came out with called Israel Matters that you mentioned, is really my personal story. of how I moved from replacement theology, supersessionism, Um to recognizing that that it's not just the Old Testament, that is Zionist.

but it's the New Testament, that in the New Testament Uh the people of Israel have a future. And the land of Israel has a future. Mm. All right, and of course you have a whole academic volume with other scholars that address this, but this one tells your story in a very clear way.

So let's just back things up a bit. You and I use the term replacement theology or supersessionism, that the church has superseded Israel and God's purposes. But many object to that. And they say, no, no, it's fulfillment theology, the promise is found in fulfillment in Jesus. Or it's expansion theology, that God has expanded the borders of the ecclesia, the assembly of God.

And it's not replacement. What I say is, if it ends up that promises that once came to the Jewish people belong to someone else, it is replacement. Is that an oversimplification? No, it's not. You know, I put it like this, Dr.

Brown. that the way I used to believe is the way Um Most scholars believe today, most biblical scholars, and you're a biblical scholar yourself. I see you have a PhD from NYU, a very, very impressive degree in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures. Um Um You know that most scholars believe what most pastors preach from the pulpit on Sunday morning that. Uh Israel was and the people of Israel, the Jews, were front and center for God until 33 AD.

you know, the the date when many scholars Um day Jesus' r uh resurrection. that after 33 AD, the people of Israel as the people of Israel, as Jews. unless they accepted Jesus as Messiah, are no longer significant to God, no more significant than the people of Canada or Thailand. And the land of Israel, which used to be the chosen land until thirty three AD. After 33 AD, is no more significant to God than the land of Korea.

Or Uganda. And this is, you know, as you put it, this is supersessionism that the church. has so re ha has so superseded Israel that Now all God cares about is the church, which is almost entirely Gentile. And the land of Israel is not important at all. And people who think it is, don't understand the Bible.

That's. That's the typical thinking of most scholars and most pastors, I find. Yeah, uh and it it's widespread. Uh obviously the restoration of the modern Jewish state did challenge some theology. There was also a lot of guilt about the fruit of replacement theology after World War II.

But you know, Israel's been here for a while now. And Israel seems like every other nation, and it's kind of back to the old way of thinking.

Now, for my listeners not familiar with Beeson Divinity School, this is a really highly respected school. It's known for sophisticated theology and thinking. This is not some Bible thumping, you know, or just Christian Zionist shouting.

So it's an interesting place for you as the Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School to hold these beliefs. How are they received by your colleagues?

Well, you know, I'm not exactly sure yet because my two books Um on Israel. Have come out recently. This book, Israel Matters, just came out in May. My academic book, The New Christian Zionism, came out a year ago. But I know that some of my colleagues basically agree with me, and others probably are not so sure.

And we're probably going to be talking a lot uh uh more about it in in uh the future. Both both privately in our offices and also publicly with our students. Do you think I don't want to say BCN specifically, but in general, among your academic colleagues, that some would look at this as even a departure from orthodoxy somehow? Uh Probably some would. Um Particularly those in the mainline Protestant circles in the academy.

Uh many in Catholic circles in the academy. Um They would say it's Too hung up about a particular people, too hung up about a particular land. It's a species of modern nationalism, and of course nationalism today is a hotly debated topic.

So yeah, I I think some would.

Now, of course, um many conservative evangelical scholars uh do understand that that there is a future for the people of Israel and a future for the land of Israel. and Zionism in particular, Is is actually represented it Uh on the pages of the New Testament.

So You know, uh, you know this because, uh, um, You came out of the academy. and you were educated in the academy at very high levels. And you know that there's a big divide. But generally, I think you would agree with me. Generally, say at the American Academy of Religion.

Um That Zionism, Christian Zionism, is thought to be nutty, kooky. Uh just the pro the domain of those crazy dispensationalists.

Now, I'm not a dispensationalist myself, but I don't think they're necessarily you know, they're crazy. but it's dismissed. as kooky and uh uh a bad reading of the Bible. By most Scholars. And the purpose of our academic book, The New Christian Zionism, was to disabuse.

scholars of that notion. that that uh w the main argument Of that book, and the main argument of Israel Matters is that. Um contrary to the the presuppositions in teachings. of many, many biblical scholars, Zionism is actually In the pages of the New Testament. It's a major theme in the New Testament, and the only reason why we have not seen it is because we've been trained not to see it.

All right, so when we pick up, let's go right there. The important new book, very readable, very readable. by Dr. Gerald McDermott. Israel matters.

why Christians must think differently about the people and the land. That's why I want to find out.

Okay, Zionism in the New Testament? Let's see. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Hey friends, Michael Brown here. It is Thurley Jewish Thursday. I'm delighted to have On the phone with me, Dr. Gerald McDermott.

Author of a great eye-opening, simply laid-out book, Israel Matters: Why Christians Must Think Differently About the People and the Land. And trust me, if you're listening and a bunch of questions are going off in your mind, but what about this? What about the, doesn't the New Testament say the church is spiritual Israel? But what about the other promises, covenant? Each of them dealt with clearly in understandable language by a man who's a solid theologian and has the ability to communicate simply and clearly.

So, Dr. McDermott. The idea that Zionism is taught on the pages of the New Testament, that's something that very few scholars even think about or entertain, or many Christian pastors and leaders don't even think that. We just go to the Old Testament and try to prove that it still applies to today. But you're saying that Zionism itself, this idea that there is a future homeland for the people of Israel and that God has promised this land to them, that's in the New Testament?

Yes, I am saying that, Dr. Brown. So for instance, let's look at Jesus, Peter, Paul. and John, the author of uh uh for Revelation. First of all, Jesus says in Luke 13, One day Jerusalem will welcome me.

Now he doesn't say one day the whole world will welcome me. One day Jerusalem, he's talking about the future, will welcome him.

Now that day hasn't come yet. But that's a future for the people of Israel. Then Jesus in Acts 1 was asked by his disciples after he rose from the dead and before the ascension. Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

Now he didn't say, oh, what a silly, materialistic worldly thought. Why are you even asking that question? No. He said it's not for you to know the times or seasons that the Father is fixed by his own authority.

So in other words, it's going to happen. But It's not for you to know when.

So that's a future The restoration of the kingdom to Israel. Then Peter. In his second speech in Jerusalem in Acts chapter 3, verse 21, he says, the time of restoration is coming. And the word he uses there for the time of restoration is apocatastasis. Which is the Greek word that is used over and over and over again in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, for the coming time when all the Jews from all around the world will return to the land.

Now j now Peter said that. Maybe in 33, 34 AD. There was no return of the Jews in Apocatostasis that Peter was predicting. That's that's That he said has not come yet, but is going to come in the future. There was no apocatostasis.

Until the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century, when Jews started to return. In large numbers to the land of Israel from all over the world, and then, of course, in 1948. They gained self-rule. Paul Says in Romans 11: In the future, all Israel will be saved. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Now, it's very clear, the fullness of the Gentiles has not come in yet. All of Israel has not been saved yet. Whatever all of Israel means, I think it means a large proportion of Israel, not every last Jew. And but that's still in the future. John says has many references.

to Um the world of Israel in the book of Revelation. But let me point out one. In Revelation 21, twelve, he talks about the New Jerusalem. with twelve gates. And what's going to be inscribed on the twelve gates?

The names of the people of Alexandria, of Rome? No. the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. A FUTURE FOR IsREAL Israel will be at the center of the renewed world.

So this these are four signs in Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John. That Jesus and the apostles were looking forward to a future for the people of Israel in the land of Israel. That's Zionism. Yeah. And so even though They were in the land of Israel then.

There were Jews scattered all around the world, and they knew that that was not the ideal state. Jesus, when he speaks of the time of regeneration of all things in Matthew 19, or speaks in Luke 21, of the scattering of Jewish people from Jerusalem until. There's always this expectation of something coming back. And when you mention Jesus' response to the question in Acts 1, 6, John Calvin said there are more errors in the question than words. But Jesus didn't rebuke them.

Exactly as he said. He basically said, good question. That's a great question. Just not what you're to concentrate on now. And what I found fascinating, sir, is looking at some of the messages of the Spurgeons and the Bishop J.C.

Ryles and the John Owens, some of the famous theologians and leaders of the 1617 and 1800s in England. Like Bishop J.C. Ryle said as he sees it, they're going to come back to the land in unbelief. I mean, he actually is not just talking about when Jesus returns, that Israel will be regathered in the land or some future glorious restoration. He said, as he understands the scriptures, they're going to first be regathered in unbelief.

He was not a dispensationalist. This is in the 1800s.

So we can go back through church history and find, hey, there are others who believe. This too, based on the testimony of Scripture. Yeah, but Jonathan Edwards uh One of my fields of uh research And writing has been the uh Uh the American theologian Jonathan Edwards. eighteenth century. Uh the greatest theologian of the Americas uh Um Yeah.

That's a prevailing scholarly consensus, not just my view. And Jonathan Edwards was a descendant of the Puritans. He wasn't a Puritan per se, but he was schooled in the Puritan theological tradition. And Edwards believed in a future return of the Jews from all over the world to Israel. Um so he was a Zionist.

Uh I just published an article, Jonathan Edwards, Christian Zionist. And he said Following people like Increase Ma uh Mather, The great Puritan theologian and one of Edward's predecessors. That when the Jews returned to the land, they would not be converted yet to Jesus. That would come later. And some of them appealed to the great vision in Ezekiel 37.

of the dry bones coming to life and they said, Notice It proceeds in stages. step by step. First. Dry bones. And then Sinews, and then later flesh is added, then breath, then they stand up, and then God puts the Spirit within them.

Notice. the stages and the last stage is God putting His Spirit within them uh spiritual renewal.

So Uh things seem to be proceeding. according to biblical prophecy. Yeah, and even just from the Simple Scripture sovereignty of God question. We know that if God scatters, no one can regather. If he blesses, no one can curse.

If he opens the door, no one can shut it. If he shuts the door, no one can open it. If theologians say that God scattered the Jewish people in his wrath and anger when they finally rejected the Messiah, brought judgment on Jerusalem, and scattered the people, well, then who regathered them? If we could regather ourselves as Jews, I'm a Jewish believer, if we could regather ourselves, then we could undo what God did. And then the other question to ask, World War II, Nazis, restoration of Israel was God doing nothing?

Through all this time, is it just, it just happened?

Now suddenly against all odds the Jewish people are back in the land? I think not. I've got a couple more minutes with my guest, Dr. Gerald McDermott. Get the book, Israel Matters, Why Christians Must Think Differently About the People and the Land.

It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.

Michael Brown. Welcome friends to our Thurle Jewish Thursday broadcast. This is Michael Brown. Phone number to call 866-34TRUTH. Any Jewish-related, Hebrew-related, Middle Eastern-related question you have of any kind that we can help you with, Jewish tradition, Old Testament prophecy, Jewish background to the New Testament, anything we can help you with.

And in fact, I want to talk about this solar eclipse. Does that tie in with some prophetic date? And we'll talk about all that. 866-34TRUTH, 866-348-7-884, the number to call. But first, I have the joy of...

Having a guest with me has been on for a few minutes, but we're able to get him to come on just for a few more minutes. Dr. Gerald McDermott, he is the Anglican Chair of Divinity at Beeson Divinity School, author editor of numerous books, holds a PhD from the University of Iowa. He is a theologian. All of his believing life, teaching life, he understood that the church had displaced Israel in God's promises, that Israel as a nation did not have special future promises.

Jews can get saved like anyone else, but they're not special future promises for the nation of Israel. And that the modern state of Israel had nothing to do with prophetic fulfillment. And then something happened that dramatically changed his life. He tells his story and opens it up scripturally in the new book, Israel Matters.

So, Dr. McDermott, just really quickly, and folks will have to get the book to get the rest, the turning point. The thing that started to open your eyes, you were in Israel, you were on tour. What is it that God used to really get you to rethink your position?

Well, I'd say one of the critical things, doctor Brown, was Romans eleven. twenty eight and twenty nine. I read it hundreds of times, of course, and all of a sudden. Uh under the pressure of being in Israel and being with Some uh Scholars who recognize these things who were asking me probing questions all of a sudden these verse has jumped off the page. As regards the gospel, they Now who are the they?

Um These are the Jews who did not accept Jesus as Messiah. You know, and Paul, you know, this is Romans. Paul is writing this roughly 30 years after his conversion, toward the end of his life. It's the most mature expression of his theology. And he says they, these Jews who don't accept Jesus, are enemies of God for your sake.

But as regards election, they are beloved.

Now th that that that word are just blew me away. Present tense. They still are beloved to God for the sake of their forefathers. And I had never seen that present tense R. I mean, I'd seen it, but I hadn't seen it.

They still are beloved. 30 years on, Paul is still saying all of his thousands of Jewish brothers and sisters. Still are beloved to God. I thought God had given up on them, and if they hadn't accepted Jesus, they were cursed. Uh they could not be, you know, beloved in i in uh You know, they could not have been beloved to God.

But Paul says they're still beloved, and then he says, for the gifts. And the calling of God are irrevocable, cannot be revoked. And all the gifts involved, all the covenant promises, including. And especially The gift of the land, which most Christians don't know, that's repeated a thousand times in the Old Testament. The longing for land, scholars have said, is a greater longing in the Old Testament than anything else except for God.

And and we Christian scholars have really missed the boat. on this Uh Um Deep connection of land to covenant. We thought covenant is just. Jews' relationship to God and our relationship to God. But what we've really missed in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament is that first.

There are two critical things that God promised to Abraham and his progeny.

Sons and land.

Sons and land.

Repeated a thousand times.

Alright friends, I'll I'm out of time with Dr. McDermott, so you need to get the book. But God bless you for having the integrity to follow the testimony of Scripture wherever it led. The new book, Israel Matters, Why Christians Must Think Differently About the People and Land. Dr.

Matura, thanks so much for joining us today. Oh, it's my pleasure. God bless. Yep. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.

Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks friends for joining us on the Line of Fire broadcast.

This is Michael Brown. It is thoroughly Jewish Thursday. We are having a computer problem playing some clips.

So you don't get to hear the Israeli music you're used to hearing at the beginning of each segment. Let's let's talk for a moment about the coming solar eclipse. 866. 348-7884. Any Jewish-related question you have, let me know, and it will be my joy to do my best to answer that question.

Uh I I'm looking at different websites that are suggesting that the solar eclipse taking place on Monday. And depending on where you are in America, it'll be different time and it is something that can be seen across America and it's basically over America. is a clear prophetic warning to our nation. And there are various reasons for saying that.

Now, it's not just some Christian leaders in America that are saying that. I have read some quotes from rabbis, rabbis living in Israel right now. For example, Rabbi Lazar Brody, American-born but Urthorthox rabbi with a large following in Israel and on YouTube. And he's saying that this is a special sign as well.

So, a few questions. Number one Is it possible that that God is using the eclipse to get our attention. Oh yeah, sure, sure. In principle, I have no argument whatsoever, no argument whatsoever with the idea that God can get our attention through natural phenomena. No issue with that whatsoever.

In fact, it's something that I respect as a general way that God works.

So that's the first thing. Again, I have no problem in theory. With something like this, that God is using an eclipse to get our attention. The question is: is it tied in with a clear prophetic warning?

So some would say, well, look, it's happening on a Jewish day on a calendar, which is actually in the month of Ov, and Some have pointed out that in Judaism it's called Yom Kippur Katan, meaning the minor. Yom Kippur, the minor day of atonement, the small day of atonement, that it's a day of repentance in Judaism as the high holy days are getting closer.

So, according to Rabbi Lazar Brody, in Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism, the sun represents the nations of the world and the moon represents Israel. This eclipse is only over the United States. That is a shout from above saying, America, get your act together. Come back To the Almighty, and cast away all your legalization of what the Torah calls abominations, idol worship. Isn't only bowing down to idols.

In the U.S., there are people who worship homosexuality and perversion. One of the reasons the Talmud states for a solar Eclipse.

So again. First question. Is God using the eclipse to get our attention?

Well, I don't know in the natural. In other words, Isaiah is not living today or Jeremiah is not living today. to tell us in scripture. Are there prophetic voices? Are there people who hear God say?

Yes, of course. But I'm saying we don't have scripture. We don't have the authoritative witness saying something to us.

However, God can certainly speak to us by His Spirit. and speak to leaders across America who say God is trying to get our attention with this solar eclipse.

So it could well be. I just haven't heard it shouted yet. From the pulpits in a way that God is clearly speaking this. If He is, I trust that we will hear and make it known. The fact, though, again, that it's specifically over the United States, looking at some comments on breaking Israel news, the upcoming eclipse is exceedingly rare and viewed from a larger perspective, the heavenly bodies are creating a picture that clearly has divine import.

Though it has been 99 years since an eclipse traveled the length and breadth of the U.S., the next such occurrence will be in just seven years. On April 8th, 2024, another total solar eclipse will transverse North America, but the visible path will go in the opposite direction, passing from the northeast to the southwest. In other words, you're going to have one that goes one way, one that goes the other way, as if there was a giant X. a giant X over the nation. Ah, so according to Rabbi Brody in the Talmud, Sukkah.

Babylonian Talmud Sukkot 298, if an eclipse appears in the West, it is a sign that idol worship has prevailed. And Rabbi Brody says through man's actions, God's influence in the world is being hidden in a state of hester panim, which is God hiding his face. This is all very, very interesting. It has my attention without doubt. Without doubt, it is a time of shaking in America, with or without an eclipse.

Without doubt, it's a time of real chaos and darkness. Does the eclipse get our attention?

Well, let us pray. Lord, if you're trying to speak to us through us, if it is your intent to speak to us through this, get our attention. Let it be clear, Let our hearts and minds be open. that there be some sense of awe. Yes, it is a natural phenomenon that can be explained and predicted scientifically.

And it is an awesome phenomenon and a breathtaking phenomenon.

So my scientific friends are saying, don't miss seeing it. This is a rare opportunity. Don't miss seeing it. According to Rabbi Brody, this lunar eclipse said to me that there is a blemish in the faith of the Jews, and I'm not talking about the non-religious. The religious Jews need to repent even more.

Faith in Mitzvot Torah commands lift us above the stars. When we cling to Hashem, God above, we don't have to worry about what's happening in the world below. But when Jews cling to the ways of the American lifestyle, we lose that connection with Hashem God. Again, this is the position of an ultra-Orthodox rabbi. And I'm reading from Adam Eliyahu Berkowitz's story.

A major upcoming solar eclipse holds divine moral warning for America, according to this rabbi on breakingisraelnews.com.

So, what am I saying? What am I saying? What I am saying is this. I cannot say. With any certainty.

Just because in my own heart. I don't understand it as such, that this marks a major. Wake up call. to America. and God is getting our attention.

However, he may well use it that way. He may well turn this together with a call for repentance. And look, we're in volatile times, and I want to speak to you as candidly. as I can. All right?

I am finishing, as soon as I have the opportunity, an open letter to our President. You'll be able to read it at askdrbrown.org probably later tonight. It'll be on numerous websites tonight and tomorrow. All right. where I am appealing to him to be a father, not a fighter, right now.

I'm appealing to him to be a unifying, not dividing force in the nation. He said, that's the tall order. I understand, but he's the president. He's our President. You see, I couldn't think of a worse person to be president right now.

That's some of you feel that way. He's our president. And he is the man right now put there by God.

So So We are praying for him whether you voted for him or not. We're praying for him just like we prayed for President Obama whether we voted for him or not. It is vile and evil and ugly. To say that he is some type of Nazi sympathizer. I'm looking at magazines where the front cover of major magazine, Ecotamist, or Time or others, and they are either directly or indirectly making it clear he's the mouthpiece for the KKK or he's a Nazi hateful sympathizer or whatever it is.

That's ugly. He has utterly and clearly denounced neo-Nazis, white supremacists as evil. And you watch a video clip from during the campaign when over and over he repudiated David Dewey.

Well, did you repute it? I repeated it over over and over and over.

Alright? Could he have made better statements in the midst of Charlottesville? Yes, yes. Are we looking for him to not be so combative with the meteor right now and to rise higher? And to say, look, Right now is not the time for more hate and more anger and more violence.

Yes, you had every right to condemn the violence on the left, but there is a way to do it and a place and time to do it. That being said, he's going to get slammed no matter what. Look, he comes out with a statement on Monday. by name, slamming, denouncing, condemning. Neo-Nazis and white white supremacists and KKK.

And what's the response?

Well, not enough, or your body language showed you really were the you really weren't into it. It wasn't really you. All right, that Listen. There is a ferocity of attack and anger on both sides, on all sides right now, that's getting people worked up into a frenzy. Let's step back.

Let's step higher. that say, Lord, here I am, use me. Lord, here I am. Send me. Lord.

I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. and let us pray for our president. to stand tall as a unifier of people right now. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. All right. Yeah, great, great point. Front Page Magazine, thank you for making this.

Alright, let's let's Play fair, alright? We're gonna play fair what's good for the goose. is good for the gander. You ready? We're going to play fair here on the line of fire.

And if you've got a difference with me, an issue with me, Tell me. 866-348. Seven. 884. Throughout the campaign Candidate Trump called on the carpet leaders, Democratic leaders, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, who would not say by name radical Islamic terror.

Right? Call them on the carpet. Why won't you say it? Why won't you name it? And then he explicitly did, he did during his inaugural speech, he did even in a speech in Saudi Arabia, mention.

Radical Islamic terror or terrorism by name. By name.

Alright, so. Did he have a right to do that? Yes. Was he right in doing that? Yeah.

Should he have called out leaders who didn't do it? Yes. So Then And the immediate aftermath of Charlottesville, where he draws attention to violence on both sides and evil on both sides. There was. There was.

However, it was In that context, the The best thing to do is to start. With this. I categorically condemn Neo-Nazis. White supremacists, KKK, I abhor what they stand for. They are anti-American, They stand against this presidency and the direction that we are taking this nation.

They have the right to march peacefully, and I as the President have the right to say I deplore what they stand for.

Now, I understand that people are upset. But you don't respond to that with your own violence and your own attack, then you can deal with the other side. But because he did not call out those other groups by name, white supremacists, neo-Nazis. KKK alt-right, whatever, because he did not call them out by name. He was lambestit.

day and night by the press. and others. Until Monday. And then Monday he made a statement which the press says not far enough or is too little, too late, or we didn't like your body language, whatever. And then Tuesday things got really heated.

We're not rehashing all of that. Here's what we can say. Here's what we can say. Now that he has done what he has needed to do. Named things by name.

Call them out. And he was called hypocritical for not doing it.

Okay, so now the left-wing media. That is shouting at him, that is screaming at him, Why didn't you say white supremacist? Why didn't you say white supremacists? Why didn't you say KKK? Why didn't you say neo-Nazis?

Okay, he did. He did. All right, now let's turn around. told the political leaders who went after him. Let's turn around to the Liberal press that went after him.

There's been another Islamic terror attack in Barcelona, Spain. All right. Islamic terrorists killing innocent people. In Spain. Wounding others killing 13 at least.

So to all the left-wing media. Told the left-wing journalists to all the liberal bloggers. To all of you who have been going after President Trump day and night since Saturday. Up through Monday, why didn't you use specific names? Why didn't you name names?

All right, will all of you right now call out names? Will all of you name this for what it is, radical Islamic terrorism? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This has nothing to do with Islam. Oh, well, hang on.

Hang on You want the president to name names? And B specific. in certain ways and do certain things. You want him to do that, but now you want a new one, no, it says terror, it's not right. They identify as Muslims.

Look, you want me to say white supremacist, that's not really white. I'm not going to call it white supremacist because that's not being white. Being white has nothing to do with superiority. Being white has nothing to do with hatred. No, I'm going to label it that's white supremacy.

And and I reject it, I deplore it, I hate it. Nothing in common with it.

Alright, well why not name names now? Why not say? We reject radical Islamic terror. They claim to be Muslims. They claim to be doing what they're doing in the name of Allah.

They are doing things for which they can find justification in their holy books and sacred texts. Many of them are very devout and pray numerous times daily, and at least outwardly live by the Islamic precepts.

So why not call them what they are?

Well, they're perverting Islam. Right. That just like the KKK? Uh uses their text and they okay, so what do we say about that? Ah, well here's the difference.

You say, well see, you said it right there, the KKK, they claim to be Christians, but they're not. These guys claim to be Muslims, but they're not. That's where you're missing the parallel. The fact of the matter is, there's nothing in the Gospels, there's nothing in the teaching of Jesus, there's nothing in the New Testament that supports the KKK and their ideology. Zero.

Nothing. Nothing at all. But there's plenty in the Quran, and there's plenty in Islamic tradition, and there's plenty in the teaching of radical Muslims through the centuries that supports radical Islamic hatred and terror. It does. And that's why often Islam has been so bloody.

Yes, others read the text differently. I fully respect Muslims that reject the Torah. I deeply respect Muslims who say this is not our religion. Whirl, where was I? I was taking a taxi ride somewhere a few weeks ago.

I guess I was in DC. and the taxi driver was from Afghanistan. and he was a very serious Moslem. Nicest guy in the world. We had a great talk.

I prayed blessing for him before we left and talked to him about Jesus. But he said, look, I've studied this out. I watched what happened in my country. I watched what happened with the Taliban. He said, that is not Islam.

I'm telling you this. He said, I can back it up. I can back it up with the life of Muhammad. I've studied this. And he was devout and he was serious.

I respect that. I believe that you can Be a sincere, devout Muslim. who denounces and renounces terror attacks and all those things. But I also believe that you can be a sincere Muslim who does those terrible things and commits those heinous acts back based on your religious sources. based on your religious sources.

I believe that. And that's why we must denounce it by name. Let us call it out and say radical Islamic terror. and then let every Muslim Stand up and say, we denounce it with you today, as many do. And I commend those who Do as to what is the true interpretation of the Quran, and we'll let others debate that.

Suffice it to say that radical Islam is a true interpretation of the Quran. All right, friends, I am out of time, but I want to tell you something. I I am not. I am Not Here to sell you a book. I'm here to sell you on having hope.

I'm here to sell you on having hope. It is not too late for America. America can be changed. It is not too late for Great Awakening. It is not too late for gospel-based moral and cultural reformation.

It is not too late. In my new book, Saving a Sick America, dripping off the pages, jumping off the pages, shouting from the pages, is the message of. Hope. Hope Hope. America can yet be changed and touched and transformed.

Go to Saving a Sick America if you haven't yet. Download the first chapter free. If you do, go ahead and pre-order the book. You can also get a free e-book, Five Ways to Pray for America. Go to Saving a Sick America and let us rise up and bring a message of healing and transformation through the gospel.