Skip Heitzig Interviews Cissie Graham Lynch, Vince Torres, and Lenya Heitzig - Part A

I constantly remind myself of a passage in Romans chapter 14 where Paul says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. And that tells me that as Christians who want to be engaged in what is happening in our city and our state and our nation, that we must be faithful to allow our faith to shape our politics and not the other way around. Every day, we encounter people and messages who try to deter us from living for Jesus. Well, today on Connect with Skip Hiting, we'll hear a special interview with Skip, his wife Lenya, podcast host Sissy Graham Lynch, and Vince Torres, president of Family Policy Alliance of New Mexico. Discover today how you can remain uncompromised in your faith even when the world tries to persuade you otherwise.

But before we begin, we want to let you know about a resource that will help you build a stronger foundation for your life on God's truths. Skip Hiting left Southern California in 1982 to head for the desert of New Mexico. The goal was starting a Bible study in Albuquerque. Let's just say it worked out okay.

So I'm moving two states away, going back east, going to New Mexico. And I think it was in a place in the Jesus movement where that was not unusual. And I thought I'm going to go out here, spend a few months, maybe a year, and see if the Lord's going to do anything at all. Forty years later, Skip is celebrating the great things God has done to invite you into the celebration. We're offering our radio friends a free copy of Skip's book. You can understand the book of Genesis, no cost, no obligation, just a way to say, wow, what the Lord has done from Calvary Church. Order your free book by Skip Hiting by calling 1-800-922-1888, or go to connectwithskip.com slash free book. Get your free copy of You Can Understand the Book of Genesis by calling 1-800-922-1888, or go to connectwithskip.com slash free book.

Now, let's join Skip Hiting for today's program. We have been doing this series called Hunting Giants. We've studied some biblical characters like Daniel, Esther, John the Baptist. And you know, it's one thing to look at Bible characters and do a Bible study on being courageous in your faith.

It's another thing to actually meet giant hunters. And I thought it would be good to have one week in this where you could look at ordinary people that God has used to influence the world, change the culture. So I'm going to have our panel come out. And then I'm going to introduce them once they come. You will greet them as they come.

Will you not? Will you give them your love and applause? Thank you. Of course, this is my wife, Lenya. She was very courageous in saying yes when I asked her to marry me. That was a huge step of courage for her. Very good.

Okay. And then next to Lenya is Sissy Graham Lynch. This is the daughter of Franklin Graham and Jane Graham, which makes her the granddaughter of Dr. Billy Graham. And she's here with her children and her husband Corey.

Over here, Corey was in the NFL, so she married a football player. She has been a spokesperson for Samaritan's Purse, dealing with issues that pertain to women and children. She has advocated for initiatives in those areas. But she has a podcast, the podcast, get this, it's called Fearless. And it's really a great podcast. I've listened to it on several occasions, Fearless.

And it's Fearless Faith in a Compromising Culture. And we'll talk a little more about that. But we have a picture of Sissy way back when. Look at this. This is Sissy on the left riding a bicycle. That's my son Nate on the right.

They were in Jamaica at one of Franklin's events, one of his crusades. Those awkward teenage, pre-teenage years. Yeah. Wow.

So we go way back. And then next to Sissy is Vince Torres. Vince is a pastor. He has been a pastor for 10 years in Santa Fe. He is a...

Please. Yeah. He is the pastor of the Legislative Prayer Caucus, a bipartisan group of senators and representatives. He's had 15 years experience in New Mexico government, including six years with the former Lieutenant Governor, John Sanchez.

And then he's the former president of Family Policy Alliance of New Mexico, a Christian public policy organization. And correct me if I said any of this wrong, Vince, but we're glad that you're with us as well. Thank you for having me, pastor. It's an honor to be here. And you're here with your wife, Tiffany over here. Is that right? That's right.

My wife Tiffany's over there and my two kiddos are in children's ministry. That's great. Well, we're glad you're here.

So I want to begin, first of all, with you, Sissy. Separation of church and state. We've heard a lot about that over the years. People have debated the meaning of that. It has been used a lot in the last year and a half, especially. And it is a phrase that has shifted in meaning and emphasis.

I want you to speak about that. Well, to first, I think a lot of Americans believe that that phrase separation of church and state is in the US constitution and it's not, there's no such phrase in there. And that's because that's not how our forefathers intended it. They thought the, the morality of the religious people would be the foundation of this country that our faith should be lived out in all aspects of our lives, whether that's in the public square and our jobs and in our community. And unfortunately, because of that phrase, which actually came out in 1947 with the Supreme Court case, and that phrase was pulled the wall of separation from a personal letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote, after he had become president, reaffirming that there would be no national religion that had been practiced in Europe.

And so he was reaffirming that, but they pulled out this phrase wall of separation in 1947. So in the last 60 years, it's kind of been used as like a weapon a little bit towards the church. And especially in the last 18 months, those same people that have used that phrase for the last 60 years have started contradicting themselves because now the state is trying to control the church and how that's how you manage your church. How many people can be not seeing your church as essential and where they would see other organizations and businesses that is familiar, same size, like casinos and abortion clinics and others still being able to operate. So that same group that's pushed that phrase has now contradicted themselves. And that's not how our forefathers saw our faith. It wasn't to be a hidden faith inside of the four walls of our church or our home.

It was meant to be activated inside of our communities. Yeah, that's an interesting point that you brought up that they have said, look, stay out of our business to have nothing to do with us separation. But now all of a sudden it's like, yeah, but we want to control you. We want to not separate anymore.

We want to be the boss of you. And we've seen this throughout world history before and how that's played out and we see it happening now. Well, our forefathers wanted to protect the church from the state. So that was really the intention, not for the state to be protected from the church. And that's why they came here.

They're fleeing persecution. Yeah, that's a good point, Lendia. Vince, you're both a pastor and you're in politics. So you're an interesting blend of that. How do these two roles complement each other or contradict each other?

And what got you into the political genre world to begin with? Yeah, the separation of church and state is a bad word in our home because we don't believe in it. And I have spent most of my career in my ministry sharing my time between the halls of our state capital and the halls of our church. And so it's truly a blessing to be able to serve the Lord in both capacities. As far as these two unique roles that we have, I constantly remind myself of a passage in Romans chapter 14, where Paul says that whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. And that tells me that as Christians who want to be engaged in what is happening in our city and our state and our nation, that we must be faithful to allow our faith to shape our politics and not the other way around. And I think so many times we're tempted and I've been tempted in the same ways to allow our politics to shape and to alter our faith. But when we stand firm in the faith, I'm convinced that we can do exactly what God has called us to do. And I see through the prophet Jeremiah, the call to seek the welfare of the city, to pray to the Lord on its behalf for in its welfare, we will find our welfare. And it's an interesting passage because what we see there is there's a connection between the lives that we live and the welfare of our city. And so I think it's an honor to be able to serve in both capacities and to have that voice, to take the good news of the gospel, to take prayer into our capital and have an impact for the kingdom in an area that is often seen as off limits.

Wow. Just let me ask you a further question about that. When it comes to the government either overreaching or imposing a position, the church will often use the phrase that we should do that simply under the banner of love your neighbor. You and I had a little bit of a discussion before the service about that.

I want you to talk through that. Yeah, I think over the past 18 months, one of the unfortunate things that we've seen is everybody knew the Bible verse judge not, and it was one of the most well-known but misapplied passages for most of my lifetime. I think in many ways, love your neighbor has now replaced that. As we have seen many, many people use love your neighbor as a reason to excuse anything that the government does. And one of the things that I like to remind folks is that the commands that we have in scripture, including the command to love our neighbor, those are directed toward us. It's the church.

They're not directed at bureaucrats in Santa Fe or in Washington DC. And I think part of our loving our neighbor is our ability to speak the truth with them and to love them in a way that is honest. And the passage of scripture is very, very clear. You know, we are to speak the truth and love. And I think for too long, we've been tempted and even pushed over the last 18 months by the government to separate the two that we either have to be loving or we have to be honest. And the scripture would inform me that truth and love go hand in hand.

You cannot separate them. If you want to love somebody, you have to be honest and truthful with them. And if you're truthful, that is for me, one of the ultimate acts of love. That's good. Lenny, you've been involved in helping children, especially impacted by terrorism and terrorism is reared its ugly head again in the Middle East.

It's never gone away, but it's in the forefront of the news lately. You in the midst of that have helped children through reload love. When you think of a specific verse of scripture or promise about facing a giant, because, you know, I'm going to help kids in Afghanistan stay and get rescued, or I'm going to do something after the towers fell at 9-11, those are some big giants to conquer.

What prompted you to do that? And when you face a giant, what's your go-to backup? That's so good. In Psalm 10, there's a scripture that says that he who of the earth will strike terror no more. And I think that popped out to me once in the passage. And so that's kind of where I look at terrorists. The sad thing is when I got involved, it was 2014, and ISIS was coming out of Syria and the region into Iraq. And initially they were killing Yazidis because they are considered a cult type to Islam, to Muslims. But also, the UN and the United States said that during that invasion that Christians were under a genocide. That's a particular designation, that they were a genocide of Christians. And I don't know, were you aware that Christians were being killed in mass numbers during that? I mean, some of us were, but I don't think that enough of that was said. And there are mass graves, and Christians were being beheaded or burned in cages. As a matter of fact, when we were visiting one of the IDP camps there, that had just happened that day.

Women were burned in cages, and we got in this tent with a lot of women, and they forced us to look at these videos of women being burned alive. And they'd say, will you tell people? Will you go home? Will you tell them? Will you report it? And I told them that you were on many radio stations, and that we had radio stations.

And I would try and tell anybody that I could about that situation. And certainly it's terrifying, but greater love has no man than this to lay down his life for his friends. I had cancer about 14 years ago, and I think after that, I just got this Esther mentality. If I die, I die.

You know what I mean? Once you've faced death and I realize I'm living eternally, I mean, what's coming next for me is heaven. And so I think that that can make us more fearless. Look, these are the worst times you're going to live through, but the best is yet to come. So use what you have now for the kingdom that's coming.

Yeah. You know, to be courageous, we all need resources to do that, right? You just don't rise up individually on your own strength and sustain being courageous. So Sissy, I know you come from a heritage of courageous faith. Your grandfather, Dr. Billy Graham, preached boldly the gospel. And listen, I'm thankful I came to faith in Christ because of him.

Your father never misuses an opportunity that's afforded him. Whenever a microphone is close to Franklin Graham, he could be asked about the weather in Belarus, and he will take them to the cross and share the gospel in 30 seconds. And so he's bold. So you come, you are raised in that.

But all of you, I want you to kind of pitch in on this question. What do you use for resources or an author, an example in history, something to weather those storms? I think for me, you know, one of the heroes that I will often look to, especially given the work that I do as both a pastor and someone who's involved in public policy, is the great example of Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, you know, who was a pastor during the days of Nazi Germany, did not waver in his faithfulness to preach the gospel and to preach the Word of God, but also recognized that what was happening needed something from the church to be more than just we opposed that, or far worse, to say we're not going to get involved because that's political, and we're just going to preach the gospel. Now, instead, Dietrich Bonhoeffer jumped head in to a political and public policy matter of the day, and quite frankly, saved hundreds of thousands of lives. And I've always, you know, regarded one of his particular statements as really meaningful for me when he said that silence in the face of evil is evil itself.

Not to speak is to speak, and not to act is to act. And when I, you know, you've mentioned my grandfather and my father, and I am so thankful for those examples. My father has set that wonderful example before me, and the same Franklin Graham you saw on TV was the Franklin Graham I saw at home, but I also had fearless women in my life. I had a fearless mom, and although she's not in the spotlight, I saw how she, her fearless faith was activated throughout the community, and I want that to be an encouragement to you where you are as a mom, as a grandmother, and my grandmother was fearless.

You knew my grandmother Ruth Graham. Even with men that was traveling, it was, I can remember my mom and grandmother killing the rattlesnakes and doing all of that, but their faith, they lived a fearless faith inside their communities of where God had called them. And so I'm so thankful for that, as I had that example there at home, while dad was fighting and being fearless, kind of where the fire was, and he was running to the fire wherever in the world that was, I had a mom that set that example before me.

Good, good, thank you, thank you. I have a fearless father, if anybody knows Rod Farley, he's fearless. He was a doctor, he wrote a book on the power of positive thinking, and when litigation was so strong against doctors, he went to law school so that he could defend himself if he was ever sued. So I mean, if you get that kind of mentality, also, Franklin's been in our lives forever. I prayed that Skip could go to Mogadishu, and he did, and they were chasing ID in helicopters while you were there. Yeah, so why did you want me to go there?

We have a very large insurance policy. And that was there in the Black Hawk, down. Just kidding, but it was right during that time, and Franklin, when the plane was landing, there were American caskets with flags on them, and what did he say to you? He said, you ready to die? It's true, and we went after, in Rwanda, after the Hutus and Tutsis, and we stayed in the Canadian consulate's house, and there was blood on the wall, there were bodies.

And so we had these opportunities that kind of strengthen you, and so I think maybe that's why I had a stronger stance. I forgot earlier to say that with this whole Afghanistan situation, it's the Taliban, but ISIS is back, right? I thought ISIS was gone, but ISIS is back, and we have raised over $340,000. And what I didn't report to you is when we were about to start the campaign, we had plans since June to launch a campaign in August, the day it was supposed to launch was the day Kabul fell. And my whole team called and said, what do we do?

Do we raise money? We can't find the people. We were looking for, we were going to support 100 families, and anybody that was there had to purge their devices of anything Western to survive. And right as we were praying, Lord, hide the Christians under the shadow of your wings and make us a lifeline, I get a text on this phone from Nick – I won't say his name – an ex-CIA operative, and he said, Lenya, we need help getting people out.

Can I count on reload love? And we just said, Lord, make me a lifeline. So we were like, I don't know what God wants us to do, but I know he wants me to say yes. A couple days later, he said, we're trying to get the girls' soccer team out and just raise as much money as you can, because we don't know what we're going to need.

Then Skip knows we were getting texts during many of the operations. We have seven girls. We have 12 girls. We're at the petrol station. We're across from the gate. Now is the most dangerous thing, and we were praying on a Sunday night. And we've got them. The American soldiers are watching them, and then ISIS is sending in a truck, and the drone took out the truck that we now know isn't in ISIS.

And then I get message fail. And we're devastated. Then the girls were in a bazaar near an airport, a plane was coming in. The Taliban had RPGs, so they couldn't land. But just this last week, I was laying in bed in the middle of the night, praying the girls are boarding the plane. Right now, they're flying, and I could watch on a flight tracker as the girls were leaving Afghan airspace in Tajikistan airspace, and they're now in Lisbon, Puerto Rico. And so we get to buy their clothes and their feminine items, but the first thing they asked for was a soccer ball. So of course, we're getting the girls a soccer ball.

Thank you that we could be a part of a team and be able to have support that we get calls, I need $100,000 right now to pay for this plane. And if we needed it, we had it. And so we're so blessed. Wow. That's so good.

Good, good, good. Sissy, we know the Taliban doesn't like Christians. We know the world doesn't like us. But what do you do when the opposition doesn't come from the Taliban or from the secular media but it comes from the church? I think in the last couple years, we've seen a big division inside the church, especially in this last year since COVID and that ugly word of politics has just like rooted itself inside.

I say politics, I don't think it's an ugly word, but what others think. But division is nothing new to the church. We've seen division in the church from since the beginning of the church, you know, divisions on theology and doctrine. But right now, I think we see the church that is biblically illiterate. So when they see a bad idea coming, or a bad idea arises in the church, they don't know how to discern it because they don't know the word of God. And these are well-intended people, but bad ideas are rising in the church.

Whether it's a love wins slogan, and it sounds right on the outside, and we as a church, we don't want to be cancel cultured, we don't want to see as bigots, so we kind of adopt that idea as the world has given it to us. But to know God's word, and I've mentioned earlier a Bible verse that I've clung to in the last 18 months is Daniel chapter 11, that those who know their God will be able to stand in strength and take action. And y'all are so fortunate to have a church and a pastor that elevates God's word. And he teaches from God's word and he wants you to know God's word. So when that day comes that you can stand in strength and take action, even inside with your church, with your family, and with your friends, that you can discern that you would have God's word to turn to. Not your own opinions, but God's word in the division. That's so good. The Bible verse that you just quoted in the translation I'm familiar with in New King James says, they that know their God will do great exploits, and I love that.

You have all done great exploits. Vince, you attended Liberty University. Sissy, you attended Liberty University. Meredith or Singer attended Liberty University. It's a little reunion up here.

It's like a reunion. It's a great school. So many great students have come from there.

Vince, when you went there, you studied political science and business. How important is a Christian education in this country? I think Christian education is more important than ever in my personal opinion. And I don't say that as someone who is against public education. I am a product of public education for most of my life right here in New Mexico, up until the pandemic. My little girl was enrolled in a public elementary school in Santa Fe, and so I am not by any means anti-public education. But what I am concerned is about the direction of our public schools here in New Mexico and across the country. You cannot get on social media or get online these days without learning more and more stories of inappropriate curriculums and theories that are being introduced and forced upon our children. And I think we need to recognize as parents how much time these individuals, how much time the state and these teachers have with our students.

In fact, there was a Project Veritas video that was recently released, a high school teacher in Sacramento bragging about the fact that in his mind he had 180 days to turn his students into Antifa revolutionaries. And that's just some of what's happening out there. I have been, I've been able to see and look at and review content in other states like California where kindergartners as young as four and five years old are being taught to question their gender, they're being taught to question their sexuality. You have middle school students being exposed to pornographic material in the form of sex education, encouraging promiscuity and experimentation. All of these things are happening now and I think as parents, if there was ever a time where we have to say enough is enough, I'm taking back control of my kid's education, that time is right now. We have to step up. Go ahead.

That's Skip Heitzig's special interview from his series, Hunting Giants. Now here's Skip to share how you can help keep this broadcast going strong, connecting you and others around the world with God's word. The world tries to silence us whenever we stand for Jesus and his truth. But that's all the more reason we should speak out and share the gospel as much as we can. And we want to encourage and equip you to do just that with Bible teachings to build up your faith and your knowledge of scripture. And through your generosity, you can help share these messages you love with even more people around the world. Here's how you can give today. To give today, simply call 800-922-1888. That number again is 800-922-1888 or visit connectwithskip.com slash donate.

That's connectwithskip.com slash donate. Your generosity helps keep this biblical encouragement coming your way and going out around the world to help change more lives. And did you know there's an exciting biblical resource available right at your fingertips through your mobile device? You can find several of Skip's Bible reading plans in the YouVersion Bible app. Simply download the app and search Skip Heitzig. Next week, Skip Heitzig continues his special interview as he and his guests share how you can remain planted in the foundational truths of scripture in our shifting culture. Connect with Skip Heitzig is a presentation of connection communications connecting you to God's never-changing truth in ever-changing times.