Friday, March 21st | The Firm Foundation of Romans

Hi, I'm Dr. Abidan Shah, and I'm excited and honored to become one of the newest featured leaders on Pray.com. It's a privilege to be part of a platform dedicated to encouraging and strengthening people in their faith.

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And don't forget to support Pray.com by sharing it with your friends and family. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abidan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. And this is Dr. Abidan Shah.

That's right. There he is. Look, you can see him. See? Live and in the flesh. You can visit us online at Clearview Today Show. In the flesh. I just had to check.

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Of course, as always, the link is in the description. We're going to leave that right there for you so you can help us out while we're helping you out. We're bringing you free, daily Christian content. Dr. Shah, welcome to the studio. It's good to be here.

Thank you. Well, I would say the studio... The studio might be a little bit of a generous turn.

Here's the thing. Thanks to Movie Magic, you guys are just seeing a 16x9 frame, and for all intents and purposes, this is a professional recording studio. As far as they're concerned. As far as they're concerned, yes.

We are professionals, and we are recording, so those things are true. This is our cry room, which is still kind of cool. Most churches don't have a cry room.

Yeah. But for those who don't know, cry room is where... It's where, when you get really sad at life, you come in here and you just weep openly.

No, no, no. No, it's a room set aside from the main sanctuary, the main worship center. If you have babies and they start crying, you have a room that you can go in that's soundproofed, that you can still watch the studio. I mean, they can watch. It's not a monitor in here.

Directly, you can watch the service. But the sound is coming through the speakers in here, so it is soundproof. It is a one-way glass, so it's this really, really cool thing. Once mamas with little babies find out, I mean, they get in here quick. Yeah, this is a great room for moms, and for a lot of people, like Dr. Sha, it's one-way glass, so they can see through, but people can't see inside. Because a lot of times, moms will nurse and hear stuff, but for people who may not know what this room is, they're like, why is there a giant mirror on the back wall of the sanctuary? Well, I'm glad you asked. They're like, well, you know, Dr. Sha can see himself, and we can kind of...

The band needs to touch up their hair or something like that. It's our cry room. It's our cry room. It also doubles as a fantastic makeshift studio while ours is undergoing renovation.

That's true. Just to let you know, it's going to be an awesome-looking studio. I've seen the new chairs. I've seen the new lights and everything. It's phenomenal. It's going to be very, very good. It's a new, I would say, the new look, but also it's a new place, new phase of our show.

That's right. Dr. Sha, I've got to say, man, you're looking great. Well, thank you. You're looking great. I know this is a rhetorical question because I know the answer, but you've been hitting the gym, man? Every other day.

I go three days a week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then on Tuesday, Thursdays, I do my cardio at home. It shows. It shows because I've got to tell you, there was a time, I don't think it was during, it was Saturday night.

Sometimes Saturday night, Dr. Sha, you'll wear like short-sleeve button-downs because it's a little more casual, and he was pointing to the TV, and I remember being like, oh my God. Hold on a minute. Look at the triceps. I was like, golly. Look at the feathers.

Look at the striations. Now respect it. There's a reason for that. You know, when I was in seminary, I used to really admire certain profs and theologians and scholars, and then what always got me was with all the wisdom and knowledge and experience they had, they would get to that certain age. It would be somewhere in the early 60s, and their health would go down. I mean, just horrible things. It's just bad blood pressure issues and diabetes issues and some other something, something.

And I said, you know, what is it that they're doing wrong? And then realized, okay, they need to work out. It's not just like I walk every day. No, you need to do some weight training.

And so I learned about all those things, and I felt like I need to incorporate that into my life now, and then so that when I get into my 60s, and of course, we know anything can happen, but hopefully I have done everything possible to make sure that I'm in good health. So to the listeners of yours, you know, get in the gym. Work out.

Work out. That's right. Douglas Shaw, both of your sons are in the gym a lot. Like Nicholas, your oldest son, Nicholas, who's our camera operator and video switcher, he's in the gym a lot, but your youngest son, Thomas, about to be 18 or already 18? He's 18. He's 18. He's in the gym as well.

Right. I ran into him in the gym the other night. He was working out, and I was like, oh, I'm just going to, I'm just here. I'm doing like a full body workout, spoke to him. Went on and did my thing.

I was with David. I hit 225 on chest. I hit it for five reps, but I was wearing the slingshot, right?

So a slingshot, if you don't know, it's like a band that goes around. I'm really scared of hurting my shoulders because I was finding that the heavier I went, my shoulders started hurting. My form wasn't good. So I bought this slingshot to take my shoulders out and just hit the chest. I went over to Thomas, and I said, yo, I just hit 225 for five reps. That's a huge deal. He was like, that's impressive.

I was like, do you think it was, do you think it was cheating to use the slingshot? And he looks at me and goes, it's not cheating. You're, you're just less of a man. And I thought I heard him wrong because I didn't hear that in Thomas. Less of a man mumbles a little. So I thought I heard, I was like, excuse me. He was like, I'm saying it's not cheating.

Like you got the weight up. You're just, you're not a man because of it. I was like, don't say it like that's softening the blow.

Like cheating is the bad thing. Don't worry, you're not that. You're just a beta male. That's funny. So I asked him if he could show me how it was done.

Well, I'll just say this way. I remember when I first began to take them with me to work out. So I started working out when I was, I think 41. That's when I really, I used to work out back in the college days, but that doesn't count now because I've been without it for like 20 years.

And then I began to work out at the age of 41, 42, somewhere there. And I tried to get the boys to go with me. And since they were too young, you know, I had to be there with them. And they were now, the oldest one was probably, how much would you say?

I mean, he would have been maybe 13, 13, 14. And then Thomas was a little, and I used to take them to the gym. I was like, okay guys, this is what you do.

This is how you do it. Oh, they would complain. I remember, I remember. Because we used to go to 5.30 in the morning. They would complain. And it's like, I don't want to be here.

I got a test tonight. I got a game and I'm going to mess up my shot. You know, and they would go on and on. And then I remember the first time giving them just a bar to push a 45-pound bar. And they were like, oh God, get it off of me. Get it off of me. Daddy, help me, daddy. He was trying to kill me.

I remember, I remember Thomas, I don't know if you remember this, but Thomas, when he would bench, he would always come back. He would like, I'm like, what are you doing, buddy? And I remember back then, I wasn't like, as like, really jump in, but I was like, yo, this dude's going to tear his shoulders out of his sockets. He'd be like, ah. Yeah.

I'd be like, dude, you got to stop. The whole point of this discussion is, number one, do work out. That's right. Take care of your health, but also start early.

Sooner you can do that, the quicker you can build those habits and take your children with you because they need to develop these habits as well. That's true. That's right. Guys, we've got a great show lined up for us today, but first, let's check in with some of our listeners. All right, let's do it. Today's check-in is coming to us from Deborah P. Hey guys, checking in for the first time.

Thank you for checking in for the first time, Deborah. It's been one of those mornings. My son spilled juice all over my black work pants. See, that would be a whooping right there. Maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe it was an accident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Accidents happen.

No whooping for that. My son spilled juice all over my black work pants, which made me late to work, and now I'm just trying to breathe and not lose my mind. But listening to this show is helping me reset, reminding myself that God's got this, even when my circumstances say otherwise. Thanks for the encouragement, Deborah P. Everybody has those mornings, man. But listen, I'm really thankful that this show is impacting people, in bad circumstances. That's right. That's such a good thing.

Guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break and be right back with more Clear V Today. When you give to Clear V Today, you're not just supporting a radio show. You're investing in a gospel-driven mission to share the truth of Jesus Christ without compromise. Your financial partnership helps us stay on the air, expand our reach, and continue creating content that encourages, equips, and transforms lives.

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You can make a one-time donation or become a monthly partner. Whatever God lays on your heart, thank you for standing with us in this ministry. Together, we can make Christ visible. Welcome back to Clear V Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's right, Dr. Shah. Today's verse of the day is coming to us from Philippians 3.21. It says, By the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, we'll transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his on that glorious day.

Oh, I'm sorry. That will be like his glorious body. I love verses like this because, Dr. Shah, you've pointed this out several times on the show and from the pulpit. A lot of times we don't think about our physical resurrection. We think about, you know, one day we're going to be this sort of disembodied spirit floating in heaven. We'll be like ghosts on the clouds. Or we'll just be like shiny people sitting on clouds singing the chorus of Amazing Grace.

Shiny people. Nineteen thousand times. But believers can take comfort in knowing that God has the power to transform our physical bodies. Amen. That changes the way we think about not just life right now, but life one day. Sometime back I did a series of messages on death. I remember that. And I covered that point that, you know, to understand what happens to us after we die, or really after the resurrection.

Right, right. Don't turn to the world and turn to Greek philosophy or some other mysticism. Turn to the Bible. Turn to the Old Testament.

That's right. Because if you want to know how to see the afterlife, look at how God laid it out for us in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, it is not some disembodied state. It's not just some spirit, you know, floating in ether. This is really our flesh and bones are coming back.

That's right. Human beings are not just soul or mind or heart. We are body and spirit. And I appreciate you pointing out that that's an Old Testament thing.

Because I think a lot of people think that that's something that Jesus came and completely changed up the game. And I remember you and I had that discussion. It was one of the most striking moments of 2019 for me when we went to Israel.

You, myself, David, a bunch of people from our church. First time I'd ever been anywhere overseas. But I remember we were standing on Mount Zion. And do you remember all the graves? Because they look like little stone fixtures.

They don't look like graves as we see them here in America. And I remember filming them. We were filming and I was getting shots of Dr. Shaw and stuff. And our tour guide was talking. And I should have been listening, but we were doing the filming and stuff. And then I was like, man, these things are beautiful.

They go on forever. And Dr. Shaw was like, those are graves. I was like, huh? He was like, those are graves. Those are people's graves. Those are not sidewalks.

Not at all. They look like little stones, like tiles laid out for us to walk from one end to the other. They're graves. They're graves. There are people there. People from generations past.

Hundreds and hundreds of years. And I remember thinking, this is a declaration of their faith. Because they were buried on that mountain because they knew they were going to rise up. Yeah, in the hopes that one day when the Messiah comes, that they will be the first ones to rise.

Right. The Muslims also try to find a way to block that. And so they put a lot of graves right by that eastern gate to block Jewish people from coming through. And so graves and graveyards.

Like boxing out in basketball. Yeah, me first. Yeah, graves and graveyards are kind of unclean. So by putting graves and graveyards all around that eastern gate area, that was a way to say you cannot come in here. I'm like, the Messiah is not going to care about that. The Mount of Olives, where you're standing, where I was standing, is going to split apart.

That's right. Yeah, those bodies are coming back no matter what you might put up to prevent that. So thinking about that, thinking about resurrection one day and Christ coming back, it naturally takes our mind to the book of Revelation. That's something that's heavily on our mind right now. I know it's on your mind, Dr. Josh, because we're walking through an end times prophecy series right now. And it's been transformative in the way that we've thought about the end times, but just really about the Bible in general. And it's crazy because we haven't even truly got to Revelation.

I know. Like going through, I know we talked about this on the show, but just going through end times prophecy through Romans. But the hope is that once we get to Revelation, not the hope, the goal really is once we get to Revelation, all that foundation has been laid.

Absolutely, absolutely. So we're right now going through the book of Romans because in Romans, there's a big debate. There are many big debates in Romans, by the way. There's a debate about who Paul wrote to. Did he write to Jewish people? Did he write to Gentiles? Or was it a combination of both? You know, there's that debate and that's like the Romans debate.

Right. But then there's also a Romans debate in the sense of why did Paul write this letter? And is this letter more important than the rest of Pauline letters like Galatians or Philippians or the pastoral epistles? I believe, I believe all of Bible is the word of God.

All of them, right? So whether it's the 39 in the Old Testament or the 27 in the New Testament, they're equally the word of God. But then there are certain books that are far more applicable for where we are today. And the book of Romans is that book.

Right. So, yes, the book of Romans is no more important than the book of Jude, but its application, its implications are far more significant. If you don't get this book right, then you will have trouble with the rest of the Bible. So, go ahead. There have been several moments in your messages through the book of Romans so far where you're talking about, you know, Paul's letter and he's writing to the Romans, but the things he's describing and the issues and the sins that people are dealing with and being given over to, I'm like, man, is he writing to present day? Right, exactly.

It's the same struggles, the same things that people are doing today. And I think Revelation has such a mythical draw to it, a mythical appeal to it where people want to jump straight to it. But then they don't know, should I take this literally? Is this all poetic? Is this all figurative?

And if it's a mixture of both, as I would assume it is, but like, how do I even know? And do you think it's because they skip Romans, they skip those foundational applicable books? Oh yes, absolutely.

That they can't figure it out? We just use certain passages like Romans chapter 3 or Romans chapter 6 or Romans 10, you know, believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, you may be saved. All those passages are very, very important. But you have to also read and study the rest of Romans.

Because the rest of Romans are the big foundational pillars on which Christianity is built. So that's why I say the book of Jude is no less important than the book of Romans because the book of Jude may be a door. So you cannot just say, we're going to have a great foundation, guys. You don't have a door in the house? No, we don't have a door. How are you going to get in?

It's a great, solid, foundational house. It's not going nowhere. It's not going anywhere. Nobody can get in? Nobody going to crawl through the roof?

What are you going to do? That's a great analogy. That's a great point. So all of those are important, but the foundation.

You can have all the doors you want to, but the foundation also has to be solid. And the book of Romans lays out those foundational blocks on which not only Christianity or salvation or discipleship or sanctification is built, but also eschatology. Eschatology is the study of last days.

Eschatology is part of theology, and there's no book like the book of Romans to study theology. Have you always preached this way? Because I know you've gone through, you have preached through end times before. I think it was before I came. I'm guessing it was around 2011, 2012 that you preached through. Actually, it was from 2009 to end of 2010. I would say 2009, January is when we began, and it ended somewhere about September or October of 2010. Two straight years.

Year and a half. Okay, okay. So did you, I guess what I'm asking is this way of thinking, this way of preaching a new development, did you do that last time? Great, great, great question. So I did, but I did not go to Romans for that.

As I was teaching on Revelation, but also Daniel in Matthew 24 and other passages like Thessalonians or Malachi and all of them, I was teaching theology as I was teaching these eschatological passages. So I would say, hey, let me talk to you a little bit about the sovereignty of God. Let me talk to you about, you know, how are we made? Right.

Are we bipartite or tripartite? You know, are we just body and soul or are we, you know, spirit, soul and body? I mean, so I would cover those kind of things. But this time I felt like instead of just hitting theology in passing, what if theology is the very foundation on which end times theology is built? Which will require us to study theology first and still keep making hints and references to end times prophecy. Right, which I think is something that people were not ready for, because they think end times prophecy, we're jumping straight in. Let's go to Revelation chapter one. I still love the story of the guy who stopped by as a sales rep. I think you talked to him, Josh. He stopped by and he was like, oh, you guys are doing end times prophecy. So is our church.

What are you studying right now? Romans. He said he was straight up. He was like, huh? Like, like, not in a rude way, but just like your sign was wrong. It was the exact opposite of what he was thinking. I love that, though, because, you know, on the surface, it subverts people's expectations.

But you're absolutely right. We need that foundation. If we're going to understand, if we go straight to Revelation, we're going to miss some of that, you know, foundational material. And I think a lot of people on the show here, they're expecting end times prophecy as they're used to getting it. You know, they're not used to us.

They're tuning into Clearview today hoping to hear what's going to happen. But laying the foundation of what's in Romans, we really can't afford to skip it. Right. And the one aspect on which the Book of Romans very clearly talks about and very, you know, unashamedly talks about is the role of ethnic Israel in the end of time.

Exactly. And that is Romans 9 through 11. What will God do with the people of Israel in the end of times? So you actually sort of answered the question I was going to ask because I was going to say, like, there's tons of examples throughout history, even recent history, about how misinterpreting end times prophecy can be kind of catastrophic. I'm thinking about, like, doomsday cults and, like, David Koresh and that Heaven's Gate guy. You know, just you see really, really catastrophic examples. But then for just, like, the average believer, you know, if we don't want to go to the extreme examples, like, what happens if we don't get this right? Say I don't do this. Say I don't go to Romans. I just start reading Revelation.

What's the huge deal? And I think what you pointed out about Israel is a great example of how that can be misinterpreted for our lives. One of the things that was asked of me when I was applying to teach and not teach like school or high school, but teach on a seminary level, was the question of what is my theology? And I said, well, so I explained. And they said, tell us a little bit about your eschatology. Like it was two different things? Yeah.

And they are in a sense, you know, a little bit more specific, eschatology. And I said, that's a big question. Let me tell you this.

I believe that the church has not replaced Israel. And I thought it was funny because one of the professors is like, that's enough for me. He knew everything you were... Yeah. If you believe that, then I know where you're going with this. Right. Right. Wow. So that was case closed for that person.

In a good way. Yeah. Right.

We need to hire you. Right. And I was not a dispensationalist. I didn't say I was a dispensationalist.

Because you don't have to be a dispensationalist to believe in Israel and church being distinct. Do you want to just clarify for people who might be listening what you mean by that? You're not a dispensationalist?

Oh, sure. Yeah. Dispensationalism, you know, comes in various forms. There is the old classical dispensationalism. Then there is the revised dispensationalism. Then there's a progressive dispensationalism. Classical is the old Darby Schofield type dispensationalism. The revised dispensationalism would be the one like Charles Ryrie. That's more of the revised type. And I would say most of your popular preachers today would fall into that category.

So names like Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, David Jeremiah, even, in a sense, John MacArthur. They're all going to fall into that revised dispensationalism. And then you have the progressive. Progressive are more, you know, trying to build that bridge between dispensationalism and covenant theology.

So they try to do the best they can. And Darrell Bach and Craig Blazing would fall into that third category. Basically, instead of going into much more depth on classical, revised, and progressive, I would say the basic criteria for dispensationalism is that God worked in different ways in different stages of history. So all those names that you mentioned, they are different modes or different levels of dispensationalism. You would say you're not dispensational at all.

Right. I would say I'm not. Just because I believe that Israel and church are distinct does not make me a dispensationalist. I don't have to pick between, OK, so I think I'm a classic, or I think I'm a revised, or I think I'm progressive.

I don't think I have to do that. Right. Just because Israel and the church are distinct, that doesn't mean that God's plan of salvation was different for each one. It was still the same. It was always going to be Christ on the cross.

Right. I believe it was always Christ on the cross. People in the Old Testament knew that. All the patriarchs knew that.

Did they understand every little detail? There's going to be a hill called Calvary on which Jesus Christ the Messiah will die. I don't think Abraham even knew the word Messiah. But what did Jesus say about Abraham?

He said, Abraham saw my day and he rejoiced. That's right. I think your approach to that is so helpful for people to hear, because it's not that these are the camps that you have to choose from.

Pick one and you will mail your membership card. No, this is what I believe. If it puts me in line with these people, fine. But if it doesn't, I'm not going to pigeonhole the rest of my theology in order to fit in right here. I believe what I believe, and if it's not a position, I'm going to make one. And talking about end times prophecy, I think definitely people are eager to jump into those camps.

Because it's an area they don't know anything about, so they're like, I need to find someone smarter than me and then start aligning myself. And just kind of hitch my ship to the big ship. It may be a popular preacher on TV, it may be a popular pastor, it may be a popular theologian or scholar, but I'm going to now follow them. But then they go down the road and they realize, oh, I didn't know they believed that.

I'm not quite sure, but I guess they must be right. I'm on the boat, I guess I've got to go this way. When you were younger, still learning how to be a scholar, did you ever do that? Did you ever hit your wagon to someone else and then realize later down the road they departed from you? I very early on learned the value or the importance of finding the right person to follow. So when I was in college, in seminary, I used to see people, the movers and the shakers, I'm talking about theologian scholars.

And it was always very interesting that they always had somebody they were following. So there was a Karl Barth, or here you have Ernest Casemon, or you have, let's go on the liberal side, you have Rudolf Bultmann. Or you have George Elton Ladd, I'm just throwing names out right now. Or you have on the more conservative side, like Leon Morris, or D.A.

Carson, or somebody like that. So I wanted to know, how do you find out that I can go along with this guy right here? And this guy may be still alive, or this guy may have been gone for 50 years or five years, but I really want to follow him. But even people do that today. There are people who love certain famous theologians and scholars. And I was like, I just don't feel comfortable to really hold up this one scholar or theologian as the one to follow. So what I ended up doing was, I ended up doing my own study a lot. And then when I felt comfortable enough, because you can never exhaustively study everything, but when I felt comfortable enough in that particular subject to trust that particular scholar and theologian, then I put that hook into that person or their star, I guess.

And I felt like now I can go with them on that issue. Is it, and I know we're running out of time, but is it understood among scholars that if you told someone, I follow this scholar, do you always have to clarify, not everywhere? Or do most scholars have the sense to know he probably disagrees in some areas? Or do you feel the need to be like, I follow him, but not in all places? Well, most scholars are very focused on their particular subject, their topic. So most of the time you don't have to clarify that. Gotcha, gotcha. But there are times if they are systematic theologians, then you have to go, hey, I love their soteriology.

Their eschatology is kind of weak. So, yeah, like, I love this scholar, man. He's awesome the way he wrote, but he is a post-mill. Why would he be a post-mill? You know, post-mill means we're going to make this world a better place. And then Jesus is going to go, OK, great job, guys.

Here I come. I'm like, you really think we can do that? And so, you know, that's a whole different—or amil. I'm sure there's some listening right now that say, I'm an amil. Yeah, there's some problems with amillennial theology. It's not that rock solid as you think. There are some bigger issues.

So you have to make sure that the person you're following is going to be good. And then how is that going to interact with your other theologies? I think there's a lot of people probably screaming at the computers right now, like, that's the conversation I want you all to be having. I want you to talk about the pre-trib or the post-trib or the amils. And I say, you've got to wait until we get out of Romans. We will, but you've got to understand this first.

Hey, look, I will tell you this. If you want to follow—because right now, the Clearview Today show, we're not really diving into the end times prophecy. All that stuff you're going to find on Dr. Shah's other show, which is Sermons by Dr. Abaddon Shah.

You're going to dive deep through. That's where you're really going to have the discussion. This is sort of like the discussion after the discussion. So maybe you can consider it required listening.

You can go download Sermons by Dr. Abaddon Shah. It's a great show. I just revamped it.

It's really, really great. And it's on Pray.com for free. That's right.

That's your homework. Go subscribe to Sermons by Dr. Abaddon Shah right into the show and let us know what you're learning, what you're getting from those movies. That's right, because all that end times prophecy discussion is happening over there.

That's right. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. Or not tomorrow, because it's Saturday. You can binge the content on Saturday if you want to, but we're not going to have any new episodes.

How about this? Here's your weekend content. It's all on Pray.com.

Dr. Abaddon Shah, you can follow him. There is exclusive content over there that you're not going to find on YouTube or Facebook or anywhere else. If you're listening on Pray.com, go ahead and hop on up. You're right there anyway. Thank you for listening and thank you for giving. That's right. Make sure you join us Monday, same time, same station. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen. Or if you're not already following Dr. Shah on Pray.com, make sure you do that as well. And you can always support us financially at ClearViewTodayShow.com. That's right. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.