You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abbadon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. You can find us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. If you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearviewTodayShow.com.
That's right. You guys can help us keep the conversation moving forward by supporting the show. You can share it online with your friends and your family. Leave us a good five-star review on iTunes or Spotify. Absolutely nothing less than five stars. Link is in the description. And we are here in the studio with Dr. Abbadon Shah who's a PhD in New Testament Textual Criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, I like that mug, my friend. You want to hold that up for the camera and say, where'd you get that?
Thanks for always liking my post. Where'd you get that? Did someone give you that? I think this belongs to one of you.
Oh, it's not mine. That is somebody. I've never seen that.
That's one of the things about working like at a church or in an office environment, mugs just show up. I think this is from one of the companies from where we order our t-shirts or whatever. I think you're right. Sometimes if you order a certain amount, they'll throw an extra gift in there.
I think you're absolutely right. Like discount mugs or 4imprint. Shout out to those companies. If you want to sponsor the Clearview Today Show, let us know. We ain't going to name you by name, but if you toss a little check this way, we might.
But yeah, sometimes they'll just throw an extra gift in there because you order a certain price point. I like it. Well, Dr. Shah, you and your mug welcome to the studio. Thank you. It's good to see you. Welcome. Happy St. Patrick's Day.
Oh, yeah. It is St. Patrick's Day. We did not wear any green at all.
We're kind of being rebels. Anybody got green in their socks? Well, I have green on my- Hold on one second. One second.
One second. I have green in my socks too. Oh, yeah. This was not- Look, there's green. Yeah, that's Yoda in your socks. I'm in trouble here.
I don't think I have any green at all on me. Unfortunately, Dr. Shah does- That's on my watch. Yeah, yeah. The little thing. Dr. Shah does sign my paycheck, so I don't feel entirely comfortable pinching him on the air or off the air.
Entirely comfortable what? Pinching him. Did I say pinching? You said pinching. Pinching. That's my mom coming out. Yeah. Pinching. Let's go ahead and scrub that. In fact, I might just take that again.
One, two, three. I'm just joking. Go ahead. Our verse of the day today is coming to us from Colossians 3, verse 17. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. You know, that really is our heart here, not only at the Clearview Today show, but at Clearview Church.
Everything that we do, and you know, you think about it, you start going through all the things. And every single thing that we do, Dr. Shah, is done in Jesus' name, because the whole identity of our church, the whole mission is to make Christ visible. So every episode that we do of the show, every worship service, every sermon that you preach, every book that you write is all done in line of making Jesus' name more known in the world.
Absolutely. And the longer you do ministry, the more you realize if you don't do it that way, you can quickly see God removing his hand from your life, from your ministry. So when you've had your hand slapped enough times, when you try to take credit where credit needs to go to God, or you start, you know, walking with that strut.
You know what a strut is? Oh, yeah. You know, like, hey, look at me. I've achieved this and we're awesome. And we, we, we, we, God has a way of slapping you down enough to go, no, it's not we. Right. It's all him. That's right.
It's for him and it's for his glory for his kingdom. That's right. That's right. Well, it's time for our daily check-in. You guys can always text us here at the show, 2525825028.
That's the phone number, man. We get lots of texts from you guys. Thank you all for texting in, by the way. The check-in has been wildly successful.
Yeah, people are loving it. Today's check-in is coming to us from Murray G. in South Carolina. Murray G. Murray G. Murray what?
What does the G stand for? Oh, it's got to be green, right? It's Patrick's Day. Oh yeah. Murray Green. That sounds like someone we even know. Murray Green. Yeah. I don't know a Murray Green though, but it sounds like someone I could know. Hey, Clevee Today team.
Longtime fan of the show. My brother has been struggling with homosexual thoughts lately. He's only 25 and we've both been raised in a Christian home. This has shocked both of us to our core and we have no idea what to do or how this could have happened. We could really use some encouragement that hopefully this is just an attack of the enemy and we'll go away soon.
He doesn't want this and neither do I. Thanks for listening, Murray G. Yeah, that's rough, especially to come out of nowhere later in life. Yeah, yeah, and go down that path. Yeah, it is tough and I know it's very tough on that family, especially the family is Christian.
And so, yeah, a heart goes out to you and we're definitely in prayer for you. Do you find that that's something that people bring to you often is that like, hey, um, do you find that people typically come to you or realize it before they've acted on those thoughts? They're like, hey, I'm struggling with this. I'm going to, I want to bring this to you to get some advice. Or do you feel like it's like, no, I've already gotten into that lifestyle.
Now I'm looking to get out. I've had a few, very few, I mean, few enough, like one or two who have come to me prior to that, taking that step. But it's very rare, very rare that they will say, hey, I struggle with this and I have struggled with this for a long time.
Some will say I've struggled with this since I was young and I still do. I just don't know what to do about it. It's not something I'm proud of. It's not something I seek after. It's just, I don't know what it is.
I don't know what's happened to me. And, um, but that's very few, I would say in all my ministry life, maybe, maybe two or three. It's usually, it's usually the case if I'm hearing you right, it's usually the case that they've gone ahead, acted on it, got into that lifestyle, then seek to get out. Or do they even seek to get out at all? Like, do you ever have, I was going to ask, is it the person who is struggling with those thoughts or who is in the lifestyle themselves?
Or is it a loved one that's most often coming to you? Um, uh, like, like with concern about them, who's in the lifestyle. Yeah.
Is it the person themselves or is it like someone saying, Hey, my sister or my brother, usually it's just a family member or concerned person who'll come to me and say, Hey, I have a brother or a sister or an aunt or a son or a daughter who is now doing this or grand child who is now going down this path and I'm just heartbroken. I don't know what to do. Yeah. So, uh, and that number is, I wouldn't say is a lot, but it is a lot more than the number of the majority. I'm struggling. I just don't want to act on it. No, the number, they're already doing it and they're, they're not listening.
That, that number is much bigger. Yeah. Um, and you know, I think it's, it's important to remember Murray, just for you, especially, you know, this isn't just you, this has been a problem for awhile. Like this is, and this is one of the things I know you've said from the pulpit, Dr. Shuz, that this is not a new problem. We tend to think that homosexuality, this gay agenda, this is something that's, that's come about in recent decades. We don't like to think that it's an ancient problem that it's been ever since Sodom and Gomorrah. Um, and then it's never really left us. Um, and I think, I don't know that that really helps, but it definitely changes, I think the way we see this problem.
You know what I mean? Right. Right. Yeah.
It's not a recent development. Dr. Shaw, what encouragement, I know we need to go to a break soon, but what encouragement would you give to Murray? Or maybe we can talk about that in the episode coming up. I would say don't lose heart because sometimes people think, Oh, it is done.
It is done. I, you know, once they go down this path, they're not coming back. And I would say, you're right. It is very, very difficult for people to walk away from that lifestyle. I believe reading scripture, right? Reading scripture that it is not just evil and sinful.
It's also evil. And so I would say, you're right. You're right. This is very, very difficult, but it's not impossible.
Right. As the Bible says, nothing is too difficult for God. Um, and that, by the way, that statement was made in the context of salvation, not in the context of God can help me have a million dollars that was made in the context of anyone can be saved. Anyone can come back to God. Uh, so I know several people personally that people are not church family who have been in that lifestyle.
I mean, married to somebody of the similar sex and they left that and they're following Christ. I mean, it's, it's a hand of God. I cannot stand here and say, Hey, look, this is what I did. No, I didn't do that. Wow. God did that all the way.
God did that. That's encouraging. And guys, remember that you can check in with us every single day, two five two five eight two five zero two eight. Like John said, we love hearing from you. We love knowing what your, what your, uh, is going on in your world. And, uh, we'd love to give you that daily encouragement. So check in with us and, uh, we may read it out loud in the air.
That's right. You may be surprised as to how your check-in inspires other people. Like we're like the entire conversation today is going to be talking about this. And, and I would say for Murray and for everybody who's writing into the show, your problems are not unique. You don't ever have to feel that shame or that like embarrassment of, I'm going to write into this radio show because I don't know where there are hundreds of millions of people out there struggling with the exact same thing as you. So for us talking about it, don't ever feel like we're shining a spotlight on your problem or on your issues.
This is to help people. And just like we read in that verse to make Christ more and more visible with every single episode. That's right guys.
Don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break and be right back with more clear view today. Hey, clear view today listeners. We want to take a quick moment to thank you for tuning in. As you can imagine, producing a show like this takes a lot of time, effort, and resources, and we're grateful for the truth network for giving us a platform to syndicate our show. But the vast majority of our support comes from listeners, just like you. If you enjoy these talks with Dr. Shaw and you want to see clear view today, continue to grow, consider making a donation today because your contributions help us deliver fun, relevant, and biblical content right to your phone every single day.
That's right. Every single donation, big or small goes directly to the production of this show. It helps us keep the lights on in the studio.
It helps keep the mics hot and running. So if these conversations are making a difference in your day, or if you just want to help us keep the gospel of Jesus Christ in the airwaves, we would appreciate your support. You can give by visiting our website, that's clearviewtodayshow.com, and just click on that button that says give today. And remember, your support truly makes a difference in our show.
Thank you for being part of this community. Now, let's get back to the show. Welcome back to Clear View Today with Dr. Abbadan Shaw, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You can visit us online at clearviewtodayshow.com, or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028. That's right. Before we took a break, we heard from Murray, who is a listener from South Carolina, who wrote in about his brother struggling with homosexual thoughts and just what to do.
Dr. Shaw, what do you do? And I know you've dealt with this a lot in your counseling ministry and people coming to you and saying they're concerned about family members getting into this lifestyle and trying to bring them back. That's really the issue that people are wrestling with.
Can it be done? Just like you said, of course, with God, all things can be done. But this is not a unique case. In fact, the U.S. Supreme Court is about to tackle a major case that focuses on this exact issue.
You know, Dr. Shaw, you actually sent me this article earlier today. There's a Christian counselor in Colorado, Kaylee Chiles, and they announced this just a couple of days ago at the time of this recording, but she's challenging this state law in Colorado that actually bans conversion therapy. Conversion therapy is banned in private practices. I didn't know that. Yeah, it's referred to as SOCE, or S-O-C-E, which is Sexual Orientation Change Efforts.
S-O-C-E. Sexual Orientation Change Efforts. And they claim that these are very harmful and that to do that to a person who is in a gay lifestyle is very dangerous and it should be banned. And so, you know, of course, states like Colorado took that next step and they banned what they deem it as conversion therapy. And that has some clear and very dangerous ramifications for the gospel. Oh, yeah. Well, I would also just say, I mean, maybe I'm overstepping here, but I would consider it a First Amendment issue, right?
It's a faith-based counseling approach with young people who are seeking this conversion therapy. And the state, and Colorado is not the only state to do this. Like I looked it up, there's like 20 states who have done this.
I was floored. I didn't know that. But I would say it's a First Amendment issue, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course.
And that's why I think we need to speak out and I hope the state of Colorado will see the light and overturn this. Because if you study the Bible, if you read the Bible and read what the gospel does in the life of a person, it's very simple, very clear. 1 Corinthians 6, 9.
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites. So what is the difference between homosexuals and sodomites? Here you're differentiating between the passive and the active partner in the gay relationship. In Roman times, okay, in Roman times, the passive partner was the bad one, was looked down upon, was treated as not really a criminal, but like you.
Like a pariah. Yeah, you, you, you're the, you know, you're the horrible one. And the active partner is almost like treated as you're just being a man. That's, you know, you're just being you. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with that. But him, the one who takes it. Yeah, the ones who takes it, who's the passive one. Yeah. I mean, that's the problem in our society.
That's wild. And so what Paul, when he says that homosexuals, nor sodomites, when he makes that distinction, he's saying, no, both parties, the passive and the active partner are just as guilty before God. They're out of line with God's moral standards for us. A lot of people, and maybe this is, maybe this is a discussion for another day, because it can get into semantics or splitting hairs, but a lot of people get into this distinction between, there are people who struggle with homosexual urges, there are people who struggle with homosexual urges, and there's people who, who engage, yes, engage in homosexual behavior. And so there's some Christians I've heard who would say, okay, having homosexual urges is not a sin.
You can't control that, but you can control your behavior. And so when I hear Paul say homosexuals, nor fornicators, or nor sodomizers, it seems like he's including both. But I think what you're saying is no, both passive and active are engaging in that behavior.
And so Paul is including them in this list of people who won't inherit the kingdom. Right. The Greek words there is malakoi.
Malakoi is kind of like a male prostitute, right? So sort of kind of backwards is what I said earlier about passive and active. It's more like the active and passive.
No, I'm sorry. I was right. It's a passive and active. So malakos is the passive partner. Okay. He's the male prostitute. And arsenicoidtai is referring to one engaging in homosexual acts.
This is more of the one who is the active male partner. Right. Right. Two different names. Yeah. So Paul is, is not letting this issue off, which is, which was an issue 2000 years ago. Right. And he takes great, great efforts to be specific about that. Yes.
Because it mattered in the culture that he was writing into. Absolutely. And it's not, it's not the case that all sin is sin. I think we've talked about this on the show as well, but some people will say, well, listen, this is just another sin. So you may as well be talking to liars or you may as well be talking to cheaters or, or whatever, because homosexuality is the same as every other sin. But we've talked extensively on the show how it's not. Right.
It's definitely a step below. But something very important to understand from this passage, first Corinthians, chapter six, verse nine and 10 is what he continues to say. So he said it, you know, do not be deceived, neither fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuals, sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. So everybody's like, okay, all right, I got it. I got it.
I got it. But then he says, and such were some of you, past tense, means this is who these people were, were before they came to Christ. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus. And by the spirit of our God, wash, sanctified, justified the name of our Lord Jesus. And by the Holy Spirit of God, there was a transformation. There was a conversion that happened from their lifestyle, this promiscuous lifestyle, this sexually immoral lifestyle, whether as a passive or inactive partner in the homosexual relationship to becoming a child of God, to becoming one who is walking according to the commandments of God. So what does that mean for this debate that is going on in the state of Colorado?
Well, very simple. If those people were changed from that lifestyle, so can people change today. That's right.
That's right. And it's not harmful to facilitate that change. In fact, it's for the betterment of those people. I wonder if the Supreme Court, there's supposed to be, I think what this article that you sent me said, is there's supposed to be a verdict sometime in 2026. But I wonder if the court upholds this ban, if they're saying, no, no, we're going to ban conversion therapy in this private practice, faith-based counseling approaches. What does that say for the state regulating just private counseling? Yeah, of course, of course.
It's not good. Yeah. We're starting a counseling ministry here at Clearview. And I wonder, I don't think North Carolina is one of those 20 states.
But what's at stake here? It's also different because we are counseling under the umbrella of a church. So you have pastoral counseling that happens under the umbrella of a church, and then you have even faith-based counseling practices, but operating on their own, they operate under government regulations.
Government regulations, at least in North Carolina right now, are not imposed on counseling that takes place in the context of a church. We are extended certain protections because we are a faith-based entity. Okay, okay. And there are people out there who want to take that away. Right.
They definitely want to, you know, close that umbrella. Yes. So that we would be obligated to follow the governmental guidelines, or not guidelines, it's more than guidelines, it's more mandates. Yeah, absolutely.
And I will say, to follow governmental mandates there would also require following governmental mandates everywhere else. Right. And we will not succumb to that. Yeah, you can't.
You can't. You can't uphold, I think, what makes America what it is, and completely succumb to compelled speech as far as, especially as far as faith-based practices. Yeah, that's why you said the First Amendment issue. Yes, of course. Let me also clarify that having people leave their own lifestyle is not as easy as it sounds.
I will go ahead and say it. Just because a person is saved does not mean that they will not have temptation, especially if they have been in that lifestyle or they have been gone through abuse and hurt or whatever. That part of the brain that has, you know, struggles with it, or the mind, however you want to say it, it's not easy.
It's not easy. In fact, sometime back, I preached a message on this subject and I called it recreated. You know, God created us and then we fell into sin, so we have to be, in a sense, recreated.
Right. And there are four scenarios. First scenario is a mostly negative life with salvation. So we are weighed down by the fall, of course, sin. We have a negative disposition, negative upbringing, bad experiences.
Satan is working against us. When we are saved, it tips the scale all the way to the right. And there follows obedience and fellowship and ministry. If not, the scales tend to tip back, but that does not mean the salvation is lost.
Okay. So that's the first scenario. It's a mostly negative life with salvation. Mostly positive life with salvation. Here, of course, again, weighed down by the fall, some negative disposition, some positive disposition, some positive experiences or a bringing and good experiences say when we are saved, it tips the scale all the way to the right.
There are positive influences now, consistent walk with God, awareness of the enemy, failure to be aware of the enemy can also tip the scales back terribly. Yeah. So like you, if you are struggling with homosexual thoughts or urges or whatever, and then you become saved, your life can go in one of those two directions. And for some, I think what I hear you saying is for some people, it's going to be much harder than other people. Right. But those other people who live good, positive lives still exist.
Oh, yes, yes, of course, of course. And there are two more scenarios. One is imbalanced life and unsure of salvation. So again, let's go back being weighed down with the fall and the fall is the fall of mankind because of Adam's sin. Right. Negative disposition, positive upbringing, negative experiences. But here, when we are saved, it tips the scale all the way to the right, but it won't stay there. Okay. So there are mixed messages about obedience, fellowship, ministry.
There's insufficient truth. So it's kind of you're getting hit or miss. You're listening to this person on online or you listen to that person on an app, but you're getting mixed messages, unawareness of the enemy. So here he comes tempting you with old friends and old memories and old places you used to hang out and movies and songs.
And it kind of gets sucked back into that life, especially if you have an inconsistent walk with God. Yes. Yes. And so sometimes you have to put a question mark to, is this person really safe? So that's what I was going to ask you. Is that question mark something that they put on themselves or is that something where we're genuinely questioning, are you actually saved or is it like doubt?
I would say they are putting it on themselves. Got you. Got you. Okay. I would say that person could very well be saved, but I think because of that inconsistent life they're living in just doubt and shame and embarrassment.
Wow. And then there is a very positive life, but no salvation. This is a different one. Again, weighed down by the fall, positive disposition, positive upbringing, positive, a good experience is charged, good decision. Salvation never comes, so the scale is still weighed down on the left.
So again, this is kind of tough to understand these four scenarios. What I'm saying here is it's not as easy to say, hey, that person is in their homosexual lifestyle, they're saved. Man, we can, you know, turn them into a new leaf. No, that's where counseling comes in. That's when Christian therapy, the right kind, comes in to help them walk towards the newness of life, to help them put on Christ. And it's a daily struggle for some people stronger than others.
For some people, it takes years. I don't think anybody who is worth their salt, I'm talking about in the Christian counseling world, would say, we're just going to convert to you now. Sit down. Let's convert. No, they understand. It's tough to help people walk through this bondage into life everlasting. But for any state or any person or any movement to say, we're going to take that away from you, is taking away one of the essences of Christianity, which is a transformed life. That's right.
That's right. It is taken away from the doctrine of sanctification. Right. That's at the core of what Christianity teaches, is that we can be transformed. I mean, the whole point of baptism is the picture of being buried with Christ and being risen to walk in the newness of life. That transformative nature is inherent to Christianity.
Right. Before I became saved, I was driven by lust, and I was driven by envy and strife, and nobody was trying to protect me from those things, and they shouldn't have been. And yet we see with this specific sin, there's all this protection, there's all this worry, like, we need to protect these downtrodden people, and we need to protect their rights. But the transformed life is a beautiful thing. My life is so much better because I'm not sinless, but I certainly sin a lot less.
Yes, exactly. Because God has transformed my life, I'm much better for it. And I think we're doing a disservice to people when we say, no, no, no, we need to let them be who they are. It's like, because no matter who you are, before Christ, you're not good. Those people who are listening, who are, this is hitting home for them, because they are struggling. They don't desire this, but it is sort of sinful leaning that they have, homosexual desires. What encouragement would you give them?
If they're seeking like, hey, I want to get rid of this, I want to be rid of this, I want to be transformed, what steps do I need to take? Absolutely. Understand the book of Romans.
Romans is the heart of Christianity. What does it mean to be justified? Does that mean that God has infused you with some righteousness? No, it means God has declared you righteous. Does that mean that you don't have any struggles anymore? Does that mean that you are like a brand new person with a whole new set of desires?
No, but you are headed in that direction. Some people when they get saved, there's a radical shift, radical move, but that does not mean that's what every person will do. Some of us, it takes years of gradually coming out of that old sinful world.
And that may not be a homosexual world, that may be a world of anger, that may be a world of self-focus, that may be a world of self-doubt, that may be a world of anger, that may be a world of self-doubt, that may be that world. It takes years. You say, how long is that? It may take you 20, 30 years. You say, man, that's a long time.
I know. That's why Jesus came to once and for all do away with the power of sin and death because it's so powerful and it's so impactful. So Jesus did that, but the blessings of that sacrifice and what he did for us is not always experienced now. It is to be experienced into eternity.
So my word to people who are struggling is don't lose heart. If you truly have received Christ as your savior, you are born again. You're a child of God. You have been declared justified before God.
Now let sanctification take hold. So encouraging for us. Guys, make sure you join us tomorrow, same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic right here on the Clear Read Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible and don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen. You can always support us financially at ClearReadTodayShow.com. Jon, anything you want to plug as we close today?
Yes, absolutely. Dr. Shah is now a featured leader on Pray.com. This is a very big deal we've been celebrating. You guys can download the Pray.com app today to access all of Dr. Shah's exclusive content. In fact, you might be watching on the Pray.com app right now if we're live on Pray TV. Go ahead and head on over to Dr. Shah's page and do me a favor and hit that follow button. That's going to really, really, really help us. Just click that follow button.
Very, very easy to do. Plus, if you'd like to support this ministry, if you'd like to support the Clear Read Today show, there's a give button right there on the app. All of your generosity, all of your donations and your contributions to the show help us to spread the gospel and encourage believers all around the world. You can get all of Dr. Shah's books on Amazon under Abaddon Paul Shaw. One of those books is 30 Days of Praying for America, Daily Devotions to Heal Our Nation. It's book three in our series, a 30-day series. Book four is coming very soon.
Plus, we've got some original music that's also going to be coming to the Pray.com app very, very soon. We'll be telling you more about that later. Stay tuned the rest of the week. We've got more great content coming your way. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clear Read Today.
