What's going on guys? Hope you're having a great Wednesday and thank you for listening to the Clearview Today Show. I want to let you know that today's episode and the secret word for today is brought to you by Lebleu Ultra Pure Water. Unlike other bottled waters, Lebleu's ultra pure filtration systems provide water that's free from contaminant and infused with only the essentials that your body needs. Make the smart choice today and experience the difference of Lebleu.
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That's right. You guys can help us keep the conversation moving forward by supporting the show. You can share it online with your friends and family. Leave us a good five star review on iTunes or Spotify, anywhere you get your podcasting content from. Link is in the description. Absolutely nothing less than five stars. I've been seeing some four star reviews here. Why would you do that? If you point it out, y'all go and do it like y'all think y'all be ironic.
Why would you do that? Stop. Nothing but the five star reviews over here. We are here in the studio with our host, Dr. Abbadon Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament Textual Criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show, Dr. Shah. We're here at hump day again, my friend. Middle of the week. Middle of the week. Middle of the week. Welcome, welcome to Worry-Free Wednesday. Wednesday night Bible studies tonight.
Yes, that's right. People all over the world going. They're going to want something to give, something to share in Bible study. So hopefully we can talk about something today that may enhance their conversation without trying to be snooty or show off or any of that. Just maybe in a humble way, share something they'll learn today. Have you ever seen that not happen in Bible study? Have you ever seen somebody come into Bible study just ready to teach? Like ready to just show people how much they know?
Who is not the teacher? Right, right. Yeah. And you have to tell people, it's like, look, you know, yes, I can also show off, but it's, you know, anytime you show off knowledge like that, it's like, you're flexing.
Would you walk around, you know, in your workplace, just flexing in front of people, you know? Hey, check this out. Hold on, hold on, hold on real quick. Hold on.
Yeah. Doesn't that look good right there, man? See how, how bad that looks? That's what it looks like when you try to show off knowledge and you start talking about, well, you know, is it blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just not, it's just not a good look.
A hundred percent. It just looks very childish. So I've done that before. I mean, I'm saying it from a personal experience. I have done that before. And later on in retrospect, you go, maybe I shouldn't. Yeah, I wish I hadn't done that. I didn't have no need to, you know, and it's not even like years and years ago I did that.
No, I've done that recently, kind of innocently, but then I realized, oh wait, that was not that innocent. Right. I was trying to show off my knowledge. I need to back off.
It happens, man. If you're listening to this, yeah, if you're listening to this, man, you're going to Wednesday night Bible study, don't do that. Don't flex. Don't flex.
Just show up to learn. But we can flex though, instead of our own knowledge, we can flex the authority of the word of God. Let's hear it.
Here you go. Verse of the day today, coming to us from 1 Thessalonians chapter two, verse 12, that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into his own kingdom and glory. That is a tall order. How do I walk worthy of God? I think we're going to talk about that later on the show, but to be worthy of God, am I worthy of heaven? Because on first, am I worthy of God? Am I worthy of the salvation? Because in the one hand I would say, no, absolutely.
Not at all. I'm not worthy. And yet what God has called us worthy. You know what I mean? God calls us righteous.
Yeah. It's a sad thing. You know, we live our lives in this world with no regard to why we do what we do or how we treat people or how we see people or think about people. Not stopping to think that that's not how God wants us to live. He wants us to live in a way that pleases him, that builds his kingdom. So I hope as you move about today, be worthy of the gospel of God. See people as either lost or saved rather than just judging them. Move about in your world, in your community, in your church, in your family, in your neighborhood in a way that is worthy of being called a Christian. That's right.
That's right. I do have a quick question before we begin today. This is the segment of our show where we talk about some of those embarrassing, really cringe-worthy moments in our lives.
I had one happen just not even two hours ago in the parking lot of our church, if you can believe. So David is outside with his mother and David is walking out of the church and his mother's with him. Her car is parked and the door is kind of ajar and it's running, meaning she's about to get in the car and go. So I walk up to David's mother, Christy, and she's not been feeling well lately. I said, hey, how have you been feeling? She's like, I'm getting better. I'm like, oh, you're feeling a little bit better?
She was like, yeah, I had something on the beginning of this week, but I think I'll be okay for worship and for blah, blah, blah, blah. Just small talk. I see David walk up to the car and go, hey, look who it is. Hey, good to see you.
And go in. So a couple of things go through my mind. Number one, Christy almost always takes her poodle or it's a poodle, right?
Yeah. She almost always takes her poodle wherever she goes when she goes out. Number two, David does not like dogs.
So those two were connecting to my mind. So I go, oh, I was like, look at David going in to pet the dog. And Christy was like, no, no, no, that's my friend. It was a woman in the car. It was a woman in the passenger seat.
I didn't see her at all. I just saw David put on a really high, like cute voice and lean in. I thought he was like petting the dog. And so I was like, oh, look at David petting the dog.
And Christy was like, no, that's my friend. I was like, oh, goodness. He did that. He did it. Oh, I did it for sure. If the question is, did I do that?
Yeah, 100% I did. And so then I was like, well, I can backpedal and say, oh, I thought blah. I was like, oh, okay.
And I just went inside. I guess the question I have is for David. David, I mean, what do you, what, what was your reaction to all of that? Were you, were you aware of what was happening? I didn't have any idea what had happened until John told me what had happened. And I thought it was hilarious. So I was angry at David because you don't, you don't see a person and go, hey, look who it is. There you are. I've never seen David do that.
I've never seen. And this is someone who I've known all of my life. This is somebody who's like, but you didn't see him for years, but I haven't seen them for years. How many years is a year? Probably three years. Oh, okay. Like years.
I would say like decade or more. Yeah. I just imagine like if I, if I, for whatever reason didn't see Dr. Shaw for three years, I don't think I'd come back and be like, Hey, who's a wizard? I don't think that's what I would do. My response would be get your hands off my head. I said, Hey, how are you?
Good to see you. And then I gave her a hug. You said, Hey, look who it is. Well, and I was, and so that made me think, Oh, the dog is in the, because she doesn't drive anywhere without the dog. So I was like, Oh, the dog is in the passenger seat. But then I thought it was weird because I don't like dogs. I did.
And that's why I thought it was noteworthy. So I said to Christie, aw, look at David petting the dog. And she was like, no, that's, that's my friend. And I was like, dog gone.
I really goofed this up. So I guess what is the lesson there? Just don't talk. Don't talk. Sometimes things are dogs. Well, no, I think sometimes like you just, you just, I have a, I, and this is a weakness. I know I have a need to fill the silence.
But I mean, is there a lesson for David? Yeah. Talk to people like they're people.
There you go. That's what I was hoping you would say that person. Hey, it's good to see you.
I haven't seen you in a long time. But all of a sudden that was a little too much. That was way too much. And so it was a lot. It was really a lot. It was, it was, it was too much. And I, it threw me off. It made me look foolish. Uh, now, now Chris, I'm, I'm glad though. You don't think she heard me, the woman in the car, Christie, Christie heard it for sure.
I hope, hopefully she had enough, she had enough sense not to tell her. Guess what my friend said about me. Don't be a lot. Don't be a lot. Just, uh, stay with Abraham.
That's right. Stay with Abraham. What does that mean? I don't know.
Stay with a lot. He left. I got to give you that. That was pretty good. That was pretty good. It took me a second to get there, but I really liked that. That's really funny.
Stay with Abraham. Don't be a lot. Have you used that before? No. Okay. That was good. Oh, I like that. I just thought of it. That is really funny. I like that. I like that.
Well guys, don't go anywhere. We're going to take a quick break and be right back with more Clearview today. Hey Clearview today listeners. We want to take a quick moment to thank you for tuning in. As you can imagine, producing a show like this takes a lot of time, effort, and resources. And we're grateful for the Truth Network for giving us a platform to syndicate our show. But the vast majority of our support comes from listeners just like you. If you enjoy these talks with Dr. Shaw and you want to see Clearview today continue to grow, consider making a donation today, because your contributions help us deliver fun, relevant, and biblical content right to your phone every single day.
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That's Clearview todayshow.com. And just click on that button that says Give Today. And remember, your support truly makes a difference in our show. Thank you for being part of this community. Now let's get back to the show. Welcome back to Clear View Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You can visit us online at Clearview todayshow.com. Or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028. Dr. Shah, we were talking earlier about giving people some, not some ammo, but just some fodder to take into, some thoughts to think about as they're taken into a Wednesday night Bible study. We mentioned this earlier last week, I think. We were responding to someone who had said something on TikTok about justification, right? About how, you know, when someone said that when God looks on us, he sees the righteousness of Christ and therefore we're righteous. And this guy was saying, no, no, no, that's not how it works. And so we did a little bit of a show on answering that, but we wanted to talk about it a little more because I think there's people who are like, well, how does justification work when God looks at me?
Right? Does he truly see Christ's righteousness? Is that what God sees or is it like he sees my sin? He sees that I'm a sinner, but he knows what Christ did. So he just lets it count.
You know what I mean? Or does he true? Do we truly become the righteousness of God? Well, there's a positional righteousness and then there's a practical righteousness.
Positionally, you are declared righteous before God. Practically, it has to be worked out and that's where it shifts from just justification into sanctification. And I think we need to maintain that distinction between those two categories. When we confuse that, that's where you will have things like Arminianism will come in. That's where you will have losing your salvation come in because you're confusing those two categories of justification and sanctification.
So we have to keep those two categories distinct. So all that to say there's positional righteousness and then there's practical righteousness. In some sense, justification initiates that, but sanctification is the one that really, truly not just completes it, but carries it.
And then of course there's a completion coming. Yeah. Does justification and sanctification, do they differ only in that justification is at the moment of salvation and sanctification is lifelong or are there more differences between them? There are more differences there. Maybe one day we can cover that because, and I know some people may look at it and go, man, this is just like, you know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or something like that? You know, I don't care. You will care when you get into certain fine points of doctrine. And I will say this, and I've said it before, doctrine matters.
Yes. Doctrine definitely matters. You begin to veer away from the center, the bullseye just a little bit. It may not look like much, okay?
If here's the bullseye and you're going this way, it may not look like if you are going just one degree off, but if you go further out, it's not like the degree goes away, but that line, that ray is so further apart. That's true. We did this one time on the worship team when we were talking about like the importance of staying with that click. We did a thing where we ran the click, the click track, if you don't know what that is in music, there's like a, just a metronome that's in your ear that keeps all the musicians on time. And what we did was we, we took it and we took another one, a second one, and we ran it just a half a beat behind and we let them play. And for like the first, I would say like 60 seconds, you really couldn't tell a difference, but the longer it went, you started hearing them do that.
And it just got to the point where you couldn't, you could not play the music at all. And I think that that's a great point that you made about the one degree further down the road. And I've seen this just in doing the radio show is like, you'll be talking about some primary doctrine that's like, yeah, if, if you differ on that, it really doesn't matter that much. But when you start talking about doctrines that come down the road, it's like, oh, well, because I said that back there, I do have to think this because that's the, that's the necessary conclusion.
I didn't expect this to happen to be the consequence. And that's why, you know, when we talked about biblical theology versus systematic theology, a lot of times biblical scholars will sort of look down on systematic theologians, like they don't get it, man. They don't get it. They just make these wide sweeping, you know, claims and they're not like as narrow and focused and as specialized on a subject.
Okay. I give them that. But we need people who can look down the road and go, I may not know every little detail of that particular theological wisdom or that doctrine, but having done my homework or having done my studies, I can tell you that may cause problem.
And I would say nine and a half out of 10 times, it does cause problems. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, this, this is so important for us. And doctor, I appreciate so much about your preaching and this radio show is you remind us that doctrine is not some obscure esoteric thing that we think about in a boardroom or in like a closet somewhere, but it matters for us in day to day life. It's not something that we can just kind of shirk off.
It's something we have to study because it has wide reaching implications. Absolutely. Absolutely. When it comes to righteousness, are we truly when we become saved, if we place our faith in Jesus, if we accept that gift of salvation, are we truly righteous or are we, cause I think a lot of people, what they would say is no, of course I'm not righteous. Christ is righteous. Therefore his righteousness counts for me. I get to benefit from it. But then you see scripture that says that we've become the righteousness of God, that we are counted as righteous.
Is that like, how do you think about that? Well, let's examine some of the verses and from the book of Romans. Book of Romans is, is very, very, very important when it comes to understanding salvation. Okay. So let's back up for a moment and talk about the book of Romans. There's an age-old debate that's been going on. Is the book of Romans soteriology or is it ecclesiology?
What do those two terms mean? Okay. Soteriology is salvation. Is it focused on the meanings and the implications of salvation? Or is it ecclesiology, which is our individual Christian's role in a community, in a community of believers. Now that is important.
You know, that is important. Maybe this is a two-part show. I don't know. Because if you say ecclesiology, then a lot of the things we're talking about, justification, imputation, sanctification, all of that from the book of Romans is really a misunderstanding. According to some people, they will say that it's a misunderstanding because what Paul is, and they, of course, this is a new perspective on Paul. According to this new perspective, Paul was not as much against Judaism because Judaism of the time was not really a religion of works. So when Paul talks about, you know, being set free from the law and all that, they'll say, no, no, you misunderstand. When you study Judaism, Judaism was also a religion of grace. So it's not that if you, they were thinking, the Jewish people were thinking that if I keep the law, then I will get into the community. So the new wave, the new wave, new perspective, the new perspective would say that Paul was actually more lenient towards Judaism than he was.
I don't think they would even necessarily say that. What they're saying is that we have, since the Reformation, made an unnecessary distinction between the Jewish understanding of salvation and the Christian understanding of salvation. Like Jewish people were getting saved or thinking they were getting saved by keeping the law. And Christianity came along and said, no, it's by grace through faith, not by the works of the law. For by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified. Oh, so Christianity brought the religion of grace. And new perspective would say that's unnecessary distinction. Yeah, because when they examine first century rabbinic Judaism or, you know, second temple Judaism, that what they find is that they were also talking about grace.
Like it's not by the works of the law, it's by grace. Do you lean into the new perspective? I don't.
Let me tell you why. Because there are many different perspectives among the Jewish people in that period that we know as second temple Judaism or rabbinic Judaism. There are many different perspectives. So, of course, scholars like Christos Stendhal or E.P.
Sanders or James Dunn or N.T. Wright, when they talk about this, I think they're brilliant, brilliant scholars. Don't get me wrong. But their idea of what's known as covenantal gnomism means it was it was you don't have to keep the law to get into the covenant. You keep the law to stay in the covenant. Means you're already in the covenant. Keep the law and you stay in the covenant. By grace, you're already in the covenant. The Levitical law or the moral law? The whole thing. They won't make that distinction.
The Old Testament law. Yes. Keep that. Yes. Yeah. So are these Jewish scholars? But they're not saying that Christians need to do that. They're saying that the Jewish people needed to do that.
Right. And so when Paul talks about, you know, justification, all these things, if you understand how Jewish people are looking at it, then this whole debate over salvation by grace through faith, it's like it's a misunderstanding because according to Paul, it's more about keeping the law does not really save you. But in a sense, it's almost like he's keeping you saved. So let me finish my thought here.
This is very important. So what they're saying is if you don't have the works that follow salvation, then you can lose that salvation. You can lose the covenant, just like the Jewish people could lose being in the covenant if they stop keeping the law. So also, if you stop works or if you don't have the works, then you can lose the salvation or you don't have the salvation. You see, this is exactly what you wanted to talk about, because when we say positionally declared righteous, new prospective people would disagree with that. They will say, that's not what Paul is talking about at all. The whole declaring someone righteous business is not Pauline because it was not a Jewish concept. So is the new perspective only on the book of Romans?
Is it a new perspective? It can also be on the book of Galatians. But they would say that- Basically, Galatians, Romans. They would end up saying that, yes, if you can lose your salvation. Yes, if the works are not there.
Got you. If the works don't follow. And that's a necessary outcome of their theology. So would they say that Romans is ecclesiological? Ecclesiological. And not- Ecclesiological.
And not soteriological. Yes. Okay. But you would maintain, no, it's more soteriological.
It's more about salvation. That's right. Okay. Okay. That's right. That's the important distinction with practical and positional righteousness. Yes.
Because if you don't make that distinction, then if I'm... Because I will say, if positionally I've been declared righteous, I am in the covenant. Practical will follow. It will follow. It may take some while. It may take some ups and downs. It may not even be completed.
I may die before that. But since I'm positionally declared righteous, he who began a good work in me will complete it until the day of Christ. So Christ's righteousness that he achieved on the cross through the resurrection is literally applied to your life. So when God sees you, he sees righteousness. Yes. Even though it's not your righteousness, you didn't earn it. In a sense, he sees Christ.
He sees Christ. Right. Got you. Yeah.
Because that's the... I would say the Protestant reformed Lutheran declaration of righteousness type thing. Now, there is a distinction between the Lutheran and the Reformed.
Lutheran is far more declarative than practical, and Reformed is declarative, like positional, but it also has practical. So people of the new perspective, scholars and theologians of the new perspective, would they say that you need to bring those works before salvation? Or would you say, no, you come to Christ as you are, you achieve his righteousness, but then you have to work to keep it?
In a sense. They will say Romans is not even talking about coming to Christ. It's more about how to stay in the family. So it's not about the individual person being declared righteous.
It's about a community thing. So would they take something like Romans 10, 9, where he says, believe with your heart, like he's saying, this is how you get saved. Would they say that Paul's just recapping or would they say you're misinterpreting that all the time? Well, Romans 10 would be more about what to do about the Jewish people, which I agree, which I agree, because Romans 9 through 11 is about what to do about Israel or what to do about the Israel of God or the Jewish people.
So I agree with that part, that clarification. But I still think what Paul is saying is not different than what he's saying about the Gentiles in Romans chapter one through eight. So functionally, mechanically in their terms, would they use language more like we, not that we are saved, but we are being saved or we are maintaining, maintaining salvation? Yeah, they'll be more focused on that. And community is important.
Community is the key. So salvation, to them, salvation and sanctification are a lot more similar than someone of the old perspective where you were saved and now you live your life being sanctified, but you're still always saved. They would say, no, salvation and sanctification, you're always being saved. In a sense, yeah, that sanctification is part of the journey that gets you saved. Gotcha.
So you're saved at the end. Yes. Yes.
Not here on earth. Right. And that's where some of them will talk about your works will one day justify you. And some of the reformed guys, you know, will also sometimes take positions that almost like flirt with that new perspective position.
Like Tom Schreiner will disagree with me on that, but his idea of works in the end. Remember the book that I had for class? Yes. What was that thing? Do you remember that? There was a lot of things in that book that I found questionable. The role of works in the final judgment.
It was that they play a big deal. I don't wish I had the book right in front of me because it was like a year and a half ago, but it was essentially saying that works in the final judgment play a much bigger deal than people think. It's not just for the crown sakes. It's like you're going to get tons of crowns. No, it's all sort of put the final seal on your salvation in a sense. Almost at the end of my life, when I stand before God, God will look at it, all of those things and then determine, okay, you're safe.
You're truly done. You see what I'm saying? It's almost, I think it's flirting with the new perspective position. Is there any reason that he wouldn't, that him specifically, but also people who are flirting with that position, wouldn't just go ahead and say, yeah, I'm of the new perspective. Are the new perspective people seen as like weird or out there or extreme? Prospective people are not in line with the old perspective. And Tom Schreiner would be an old perspective person, which I am too. So I agree with him there. But he's flirting with the line a little bit more.
I think so. He may disagree with me and say, no, I think you misunderstood me. And I would love for him to explain to me how I misunderstood, because if you're saying the role of works in the final judgment sort of complete the circle, I don't know. And he will say, being a biblical theologian, which I think Tom Schreiner is a brilliant guy, but being a biblical theologian, he will kind of say, you know, but then when you see this in the book of Revelation, where he tells us the church about their works, you know, I know your works and all that, you know, how else are you going to interpret that? And I would say there's other ways to do that. Take systematic theology. You know, make sure if you start bringing in works in your salvation, then you have issues. Yeah.
Important distinctions. That's right. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today Show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. And don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show on iTunes if you want to re-listen. And you can always support us financially at clearveetodayshow.com. John, anything you want to add?
Yes, definitely. We are going to NRB with myself, Dr. Shah, Ryan, David. We are all going to NRB.
We will be there in just a couple of weeks. It's not an arcane secret. That's not an arcane secret. Yeah, I got you, brother. I got you. I forgot about the word of the day till the end. I forgot it was mine.
I was like, oh man, we're at the end. What is arcane? Mysterious.
Unknown. Some of you would learn it like the College of Winterhold or something like that. Not that kind of arcane. I think you might be the arch major.
I am the arch major, yeah. So, yes, we're going to be at NRB. Make sure if you're there in Houston, Texas, Dallas, Texas. Dallas.
Dallas, that you come and say hi. Hey, we'll be doing some live shows right there on the floor, so stick around for that. I want to let you know about Dr. Shah and Nicole's book, 30 Days to Praying for America. This is book three in the 30-day series. We're working on book four right now.
We're going to be announcing that pretty soon. But you can get this in the entire 30 days catalog on Amazon. You can also get our original music. That's Heaven Here and Now is our debut album. And our brand new single, Great and Awesome, is available on iTunes, Spotify, anywhere you get your streaming music from.
That's right. Make sure you guys join us for tomorrow's conversation. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today. We'll see you next time.
