Thursday, January 2nd | Counseling, Therapy and Mental Health (ft. Nicole Shah)

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Link's going to be in the description, so you can do just that. And we are here once again in the Clear View Today Studio with Dr. Abbadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, along with his wife, Nicole. Perma guest, Nicole Shah. Nicole, is this your first episode in the new studio? It is.

First episode. For real, is that for real or are you just humoring me? No, this is for real. I don't believe you.

I think you're lying to me. I've been up here a few times, but actually never done a first episode in the new studio. Welcome to the show.

Dr. Shah, welcome to the show. It's good to be here. It's a good Friday afternoon, man. Post-Christmas. Post-Christmas, yeah. The further you get away from Christmas, the more normal things start to feel again. Those Boxing Day blues have sort of worn off, you know what I mean? I mean, it's only been a day, huh? Yeah, maybe. Not for you?

No, not for Ryan either. I kind of get the Christmas after Christmas blues a little bit, you know. Nicole and I are hanging on to the last messages of Christmas as long as we can. Boxing Day, December 26th, I don't know why, it's always cloudy. It's always gray.

It's always a little wet and cold. And it's just never like a beautiful day after Christmas. That's how I feel in my spirit. Are you still in a sense of rebellion wearing your sleigh bell shoes?

I'm not wearing them currently, but they are under the table, yes. What I mean is you showed up to work today with the sleigh bell shoes on. Absolutely.

And I also have Christmas socks and I have a Christmas coffee mug. Got you, got you, got you. Because it is still the Christmas season.

Nicole is not having her spirit taken away from her even two days after Christmas. Absolutely not. Okay, fair enough, fair enough. We will fight for it tooth and nail.

All the way till next December when the fight gets to stop. Right. Got you, okay. Our verse of the day today is coming to us from Proverbs chapter 12 verse 27. The lazy man does not roast what he took in hunting, but diligence is man's precious possession. The lazy man.

We all have that. We all call those eyebrows just shot up like she was looking right in my soul. She was like, she was, I was like, oh, the lazy man. I suppose this is going to be funny too.

She did one of these things where she looks over the top of her glasses like. Have you ever had to deal with lazy people? Like, like, like not even just teenagers, like straight up adults who never figured out how to work, how to, or how to, how to do adult life. Sometimes, but my, you know, my experience has been mostly with teenagers. That's kind of normal.

Mine has been with adults. And in fact, I was having lunch today, I guess you can say. And I was, we were talking about this one gentleman who is working a certain job and not doing good. Not here.

I mean, it's elsewhere. And so this other friend of mine and I, we were talking and I said, so what is his deal? I mean, why can't he be, I mean, this, this person is in a high level position.

Okay. This is not like, you know, this person is just doing some low level job. This is a high level position. You guys would be shocked if I told you what, and I'm like, well, so why is he like going from this to this to this? I mean, what, what's the deal? He's just lazy. He's just lazy. I said, he used to work for me for years ago. And he was just like that. And he's still like that. So you think he's going to lose his job? More than likely. Nothing more unattractive on an adult, especially a man, but, but nothing more unattractive on an adult than laziness.

And that's what I was thinking. Like you can really get away with it when you're a teenager, you know, cause I used to do that. I used to like lay around the house, sleep till like one, two o'clock. And when you're a teenager, it's fine. But then you start seeing that behavior on like a 20, 21 year old, a 22 year old. Talk about a 51.

Yeah. I was going to say, God forbid someone who's in their thirties, forties, fifties. That's like, man, very good.

Not good for you. That's not right. On a different note, Nicole, I am all about that sweatshirt. It says spill in the tea since 1773. Did y'all get that in Boston? That's hilarious. I was going to say, I kind of wish if I had seen that before we stepped in, I would have made the verse of the day be about gossip.

That's a really great, I love this sweatshirt. And I even have like a spatula that we found, but every year it seems like not, I don't know for sure, but it seems like to me, Boston, when they, they come up with some type of little saying, and it always has to do with history. And so the year that we went up to visit Abigail and Jarrett, this was everywhere, spill in the tea since 1773. And then I think last year, I think Abigail had a t-shirt then it said something about too cool for British rule. That's awesome. I love that. We were talking about earlier, we were talking about just deplorable behavior, just some of the worst human behavior that you could see.

Laziness is one of them. But I also think that we saw here in the, before you got here today, Dr. Shaw, we were, we were preparing lunch for our, for our team lunch today and just saw some really disgusting behavior. We were privy to some debauchery.

Yeah. It rivaled the great pizza hissy of 2023. If you guys will remember Nicholas's world-class legendary hissy fit over David ordering pineapple pizza and then eating some of the meat lover's pizza. Nicholas lost his mind. Well, I saw something, no, no, no, that was, that was a long time ago.

Well, that was last year. And we talked about it on the show. It became like a big thing where it was like, people were kind of arguing in the comments, who was right in that argument, David versus Nicholas. I saw something today that made instantly from me, made David lose all credibility, all of it. And I'm, I'm now firmly team Nicholas.

And I want to let you know what happened. David went into the, into the kitchen. He was like, Hey, I'm going to make some scrambled eggs for lunch.

I'm like, cool. Hey, can, while, while you're making them, will you just scramble me some eggs too? And Adam said, I'll take some eggs too, if you're making them. David said, yeah, I'll make everybody scrambled eggs. He said, I'm doing four eggs. I said, I don't want four eggs. I just want three eggs. Adam said, I just want two eggs.

He was like, cool. So in my mind, I'm thinking, you're just gonna make a lot of scrambled eggs. We can just divide it.

We'll just divide it up. David said, as the Lord is my witness over my dead body, no one is going to have some of my eggs. So he put four eggs in a cup, three eggs in a cup and two eggs in a cup and made them one person's meal at a time. Nicholas.

Yeah. Why did you do it? Nicholas came in and saw it and said, why are you doing that? I wanted four scrambled eggs. I was counting my calories. I had to know how many eggs I made. But what if the eggs are different sizes and stuff like that?

Doesn't that happen? Oh, not all eggs are identical. It's easier to count four eggs, even if they vary in sizes than three eggs. Nicholas came in and said, why are you doing that way? And I knew instantly we were going back to the great pizza debate. And so I started stoking the flames and I was like, I think, I think I understand the logic behind David's premise. It's just a bad premise. I get it because scrambled eggs, it's impossible to divide you.

Like I can't scoop out two eggs. I will say this and Nicholas backed me up on this. The calorie argument didn't come in until way later.

That is true. I just wanted four eggs. I'm like, yeah, you can have four. But I'm saying like the, the putting eggs in individual cups and then making them, because now I've got to just wait for my, yeah, yes, he made eggs three times. If you would, if he would have brought in the calorie issue, that's probably the strongest argument. Even then eggs are not universally identical. And, and so I, the thing is if, if, if this pizza argument hadn't have ever happened, I probably would have not even brought it up, but you, you would have done much better.

And this argument would have been much cleaner if you had a food scale and weighed a weight of scrambled eggs. Nicholas lost his mind because David ordered, David ordered Hawaiian pizza. And Nicholas was like, no, cause he's not going to eat the wine. He's going to eat the meat lovers.

And then all that's going to be left is Hawaiian, which no one likes. And we were like, yo, Nicholas, calm down. Then David actually did eat some of the meat lovers. And I was like, well, whatever. And now David is doing the whole, I'm going to cook separate eggs for the fear, the real visceral animal fear in me that someone might have some of my eggs. It was just, it was bad.

It was really bad. Adam got his feelings hurt. Adam was just like, I don't know what to do separately. So, so we're just standing around instead of, instead of us all eating together. Yeah, exactly. If you go to cookout, it's like a short order cook and you order four eggs, they don't put a whole bunch of eggs in a bag.

They get four eggs on the stove. Right. But this isn't Waffle House. But the reasoning behind it is different. Your reasoning was so that, you know, I can count my calories, but eggs are not the same size. And again, the calorie argument didn't come in until way later. Also, we're not paying for eggs.

Like I wasn't paying more. You can have four eggs. You can have four eggs. Some of those eggs are huge. And you can like, those three eggs would be our typical four eggs from a grocery store.

We need to cut to a break. I will say this. The eggs were delicious. They were really on point.

Those might've been some of the best eggs. The message in this madness is don't fuss over silly things. That's right. That's right. Nicholas, Nicholas, I want to say that all along about the pizza argument, you've been right.

And I don't think we gave you the respect you deserve here on the Clearview Today show. Sad, very erudite. That's right. That's right. Wait a minute. No, wait.

No way. Erudite? Is that like wisdom? Erudite? Erudite?

It's like very articulately. Yeah. Wait a minute. Was that the secret word?

Erudite? I didn't say it. I don't know.

Maybe it was a secret word. Are you going to really hit the buzzer? I already hit it. I already hit it. Well.

It was it? Very cool. Erudite. What does erudite mean? Erudite means very articulate.

Articulate. Oh, that's right. You said that. Yeah. Yeah.

E-R-U. Gotcha. Gotcha.

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That's right. Nicole, glad to have you on the show today. Glad to have you on the show today. So you are wrapping up your master's degree? Yes, I'm wrapping it up in Counseling Ministries, but I've done all of my classes, but starting the end of January, I do my internship. Are you excited?

Very nice. I'm excited. I am nervous. I was about to say apprehensive, but I'm not apprehensive. I think I'm just a little bit nervous. Excited, nervous, excited. Kind of got some nervous excitement.

What's next after the master's? Nothing right now. I just need a break. What? I need a break. You don't want to be Dr. Nicole Shah?

Not right now. By break, do you mean breaking into the PhD program? No, no.

Or at least a doctoral program. I was going to say, wouldn't it be cool if y'all were doctor in doc- The doctor's Shah. I was trying to get it out.

I can't stand you are always just a millisecond faster than me. The doctor's Shah. I had a psychology professor in college and her husband was a doctor of history, I think. They were unrelated, but they were the doctor's sinisee.

So that's how they- That's kind of cute. That was their voicemail for their home. Really?

Thank you for calling the doctor's sinisee. What are some of the long-term goals for Clearview specifically that have counseled? Because Dr. Shah, you've counseled people as part of being a pastor.

For years and years, yes. Is that a normal thing that pastors do or is that something that you just kind of, God put on your heart? Well, some pastors do that, but some do it well, some don't. So it all depends on how much understanding they have about counseling. It depends on how much experience they have. It depends on if they have a heart to help somebody. I've known guys who are great, great pastors, but they just don't have the heart for that. They're more administration type people or they're scholarly people.

We're hoping to do both. Help people get down to their- Well, that's how Christ was. That's right. That's how the apostle Paul was. He could counsel somebody and still be a stalwart for the faith, for the gospel, for missionary work and everything.

That's right. Going into biblical counseling, that wasn't really an issue, was it? Where you had to hold onto your faith. Because the whole thing about your biblical counseling degree is that you're using scripture and you're using the Bible or just using Christianity as the foundation. Well, mine is not necessarily a biblical counseling degree. It's a master's in counseling ministries with a trauma certificate.

So I'll be able to counsel people when it comes to any kind of trauma. Is ministries inherently Christian? Is that implied? I feel like it is, because if you go to a secular university, it's not gonna be anything to do with ministry. It will be- Obviously. It will be a degree.

It will be a psychology degree, whatever. Gotcha. So your degree in counseling ministries has an implicit or explicit, I guess, either one, Christian foundation.

Yes. And there's a big difference between this is Christian or biblical counseling versus I'm a Christian who counsels. Those are different things.

What is your master's in? World of difference. Biblical counseling. Biblical counseling.

Okay. So biblical counseling and then counseling ministries, what are the... Are there any differences between those two? I'm sure there are, but was yours more scriptural based?

Mine was... It was focused mostly on scripture. It was coming out of that kind of like, new thetic counseling movement where it's like, the Bible is the only answer that you need.

There's nothing else. Don't look to anything else, which, you know, scripture is important, and it's important that we bring that to bear in the counseling relationship. But there are also things that we can learn from secular counseling approaches, tools that we can add to our toolbox, albeit within the biblical framework. So mine was more use the Bible for counseling, but there was also elements of that wider focus of these are counseling tools and approaches that you can use. What do you do about people who truly need that help, but they've been either conditioned or just talked into going to secular therapy? You know, what do you do about people who, where you know for a fact that that therapist, that psychologist, that psychiatrist is not coming from a biblical worldview? So to back up a little bit, there are three different or popular approaches to dealing with problems, you know, or struggles people have. We call them sins, right?

Not everything you're struggling with is a sin. I hope people understand that. But Ernie Baker in his book talks about this. First is the cognitive behavior therapy.

And Nicole can talk more about that. It is sort of changing your thinking and you change your behavior as cognitive behavior therapy. Then there is kind of like the biomedical where, you know, the pharmacological treatment, where you're getting medicine, medicine to help you deal with this thing that you're struggling with. Then there's of course the Maslow's need theory, which is basic needs are not being met in your life. The psychological, I'm sorry, the physiological needs or the safety needs or the love and belonging or the self-esteem or the self-actualization needs. So let's help you meet those needs. Those are the basic three ways that things are dealt with.

I know maybe Nicole and Ryan can add more to that. Well, with the cognitive behavioral therapy, I like that idea, but only if it is biblically based. Because if you're just changing your thinking to change your behavior, if there's not a heart change, then the behavior is only surface. It's never going to be a complete change unless there's a heart change. So in cognitive behavioral therapy, you're missing for Christian.

Is it fair to say that all three of those approaches that Ernie Baker listed have degrees of truth, but they're all incomplete? Yeah, I would agree. Ultimately, they're blaming either nature or nurture for your bad behavior or whatever you're struggling with. I don't want our listeners or viewers to think that they're bad. It's a bad behavior, but it's whatever your struggle is. I'm calling it bad behavior, but you may be struggling with depressive thoughts or whatever it is. Maybe it's harmful.

Yes, harmful would be better to say that. Nature is more physiology. It's our body, our brain chemistry, our neurotransmitters, our chemical levels. Nurture we're dealing with in the environment is our family upbringing, our social situations, our past experiences. You're dealing with this nature-nurture situation. And there's a lot of truth there, but there's still so much that they fail to answer.

Yeah, absolutely. I think true but incomplete is a great way to think about it because all of these things are, you know, they have degrees of truth in them because the research has been good and how the brain operates and how behavior rises to the surface based on thinking. But what they miss and what I think, you know, is so great about what, Nicole, what you're doing is that it maps on what God says about what a person is, who a person is, and how to biblically change behavior. Especially cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, change your mindset, you change your behavior. That maps right along to what repentance is. It's a change of mind about sin, self, and savior. That's cognitive behavioral therapy, but we understand it in the context of what God says about who the person is. How does it feel and what has it been like getting, like going through this master's program for like biblical or for counseling ministries, you're doing these examples and you're doing these projects and you're doing these papers and now all of a sudden I have actual clients who are coming in and we're actually doing it.

You're sort of quote unquote in the field, more or less. How does that, how does that been? Well, I haven't quite gotten into, especially the trauma yet. I know it's coming and it probably will be coming in the internship that I'll be doing for the next 16 weeks.

Actually, it will start at the end of January. So I will definitely be getting my feet wet when it comes to the trauma part in that time. So I'm actually really grateful to have supervision and also having, you know, somebody who she, my professor is like my supervisor and then I have one that's on site as well. Did you go into it wanting to get a certificate in trauma or did it just kind of work out that way? Um, well, I actually just went in to get the counseling ministries and it just happened that the professor that is over the program, she has a PhD in, uh, in a complex trauma.

So she feels the need to, if, you know, if they can get, get the certificate for all of her students to do it, because there's so much trauma out there and it's not, I'm not saying it as in, you know, that it's the fad, um, but there is, there's a lot of trauma out there and, um, we need to be aware of it as a church. Right. Because if we're not dealing with it, the world will deal with it. Oh yeah. And they're not going to deal with it the right way, the biblical way. Right. Those put you on pills or put you on medicine or twist your thinking into some secular world view. Right. Right. And coming from a Christian angle, again, like Ryan clarified there, or maybe Nicole did, you know, we're talking about counseling, not just as a Christian, but counseling from a Christian perspective, which is a biblical perspective, which is not the same as biblical counseling, because that gets into new thetic counseling, which is not, I'm not against it.

I think it's great. It's got a lot of good things, but if we just stop there, then we don't understand the, the, the benefits of the field, you know, like you used to say, um, like your professor one time said, it's sifting all the things that, that people have learned in secular, uh, psychology or counseling, and then sifting it through the Bible and what remains you use. And ultimately what we're dealing with is a problem with worship. Good point. If you, if you look at it that way, it's a problem with worship. Ernie Baker, again, you brought him up cause I've mentioned his, uh, his three parts.

Uh, he, he mentioned, he writes it this way. He said, humans do not just have personality disorders. They have worship disorders. Uh, because of that, all the other problems, uh, followed desire problems, food problems, social pressure problem, uh, pain and suffering problem, relationship problems, sexual temptation problem, blame problem, anger problem, unforgiveness problem, materialism problem, selfishness.

These are all coming. It's like a worship disorder. It means you have, you have a distorted worship. And so worshiping God, this something has become very important. And it, it, it brings you to a point of submission. It brings you to a point of kneeling before it and giving into it. That's a great point. Whatever that is, maybe eating for a food problem, you're giving into it.

It's like, this is it. This one's just, I'm not struggled with that. You know, I have to be careful. How much do I say yes to it? That's a great point. Can I walk away from it?

Can I eat the salad? Uh, on days that I don't want to work out, do I still get up and go or do I worship food enough to so much that I say, no, I'm good. That's a good point. Cause we have this idea in our head of what worship looks like.

It's either like bowing down to these false idols or it's coming to church. Yeah. Right. Right. But, but really it's, it's like you said, it's the submitting to it. You know, when you worship God, that's what you're doing. You're submitting to him.

He has your all. Right. Right. And when you, when you worship food or you worship anger, you worship lust or whatever it is, you it's your submission to it.

That's a great point. That, that thing, that person, whatever it is, controls you and you will submit to it. That's the worship is submission, right? Yes. Absolutely. I mean, even that's just what you said, right? If there's not a heart change, you know, it's, it's like the, what was the behavioral cognitive?

It's like, yes, you want to change the mind, but if you don't change the heart, will the mind really change? Yeah. Not for long. Yeah. Yeah. Very good point.

Maybe adjust some unsavory behaviors, but it'll change right back. I mean, that's the nature of sin. Good point. If the church fails to step into this counseling arena and praise God for, for Clearview and for Dr. Shire and Nicole, for you guys stepping into that role. Um, if, if the church fails to step into the counseling arena, what's at stake?

I mean, you want to answer first, Nicole? Well, I can say, you know, when, if we fail to step into that, then there are people who have had traumatic past and I'm talking about like child abuse or, um, things like that, that people don't people in the pews, just normal everyday people that don't have the education they miss. Um, they will miss the cues, they will miss the symptoms and they'll, you know, be misdiagnosed, so to speak. Um, and so you're left with people who are hurting, who are truly hurting emotionally, mentally, spiritually, because they're trying to find those answers, but because of what has been done to them, it's there, everything is skewed. And so if they, if we don't wake up to that, to be there to help them, you know, they're going to go find help somewhere.

And we all know that the secular world, I mean, it, it can help, but it's, the spiritual is missing and that is the biggest component. Yeah. And then things just get worse because, uh, problems don't end with that person. Problems don't end with that person. They, they multiply, they, they, um, uh, um, they, they, um, how was it?

They self-generate. So now you have, um, not just this person, but their children, their grandchildren or their friends, and then just keeps going. And we are called as believers to, to bring people the whole gospel, the whole gospel not only, um, deals with a person's sin nature, but also deals with the repercussions of sin because that's what is behind that. Um, and clearly we have, uh, started what's known as the lighthouse counseling ministry. Ryan and Elizabeth are, I'm sorry, Ryan and Nicole and Elizabeth maybe will be helping as well, maybe down the road. Uh, that's Elizabeth is Ryan's wife, but they are in charge of the counseling ministry here and it's, it's, it's going very well.

I wish we could have more time to devote towards this, but I think down the road, uh, as our staff expands, we will free up our leads to go do this. That's right. Yeah.

That's right. Make sure you guys join us tomorrow. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic right here on the Clearview Today Show. Big thanks to perma guests, Nicole Shaw for joining us. Thank you for being here, Nicole. Thank you. Thank you.

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If you want to re-listen or share episodes with your friends or loved ones, and you can always support us financially at clearveetodayshow.com. John, anything you want to plug as we close today? Yes, we are out of time, but I do want to let you know that our, um, our, uh, well, what is it? What is the, what is the prayer vigil? The prayer vigil? Yes. Of course we're going live.

My brain just spaced right out right there. January the 3rd, 7 to 9 PM. We're going to be going live. We want you to call us two five two five eight two five zero two eight between those two hours. And we will pray with you on the air and our debut album heaven here and now is available on iTunes and Spotify and where digital music is streamed or sold.

That's right. You guys have a wonderful weekend. Make sure you join us next week, bright and early Monday. Lots of great content coming your way. We love you guys. We'll see you Monday on Clear View Today.