Thursday, October 24th | The Old Problem of Abortion

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Fun fact, no. I have to make my own with McDonald's Sprite, and you guessed it, Texas Pete. I am genuinely horrified to hear that.

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Where's my Mountain Dew? You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. You can find us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. If you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at ClearViewTodayShow.com.

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We're going to leave a link in the description, so you can do just that. Ryan, how you doing today, my friends? Lovely. How you doing? I'm doing great.

We got a great, great show lined up for today. Went out to lunch earlier. Went to that old CB, hashtag CB, the Cracker Barrel.

Oh, I'm saying CB. Yeah, we went to that old Cracker Barrel. Sure. Got me some bacon and eggs. It was odd to call it the barrel. The barrel. Yeah, we went to the barrel. Got me some bacon. Got me some eggs. Love that. Got me... Cracker Barrel breakfast hits.

Yeah. I mean, it is always good. I never... I used to get the burgers from Cracker Barrel. The burgers are fine.

Burgers are fine. They're too dense for me. They are dense. I eat like a little bird. They're way... They're like thick, thick... I'm like biting into a cow.

And I can never finish it. And I don't know if I've just been programmed by my dad to be ashamed if I leave food on the plate. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you gotta clean your plate. Yeah, so I'm gonna leave miserable if I get the burger. But nice bacon, eggs, grits, fill me up. Yeah. All this is besides the point. One thing I've never understood is Cracker Barrel's General Store.

But women and old people love it. Love it. Love it. That is their manna from heaven.

Love it. And so every time we're waiting, you'll walk around the General Store, you see all that gaudy stuff in there, whatever. I've been noticing all their weird candies and their weird sodas. Yeah.

And this stuff is just basically background scenery to me. Let me go look at it. And I saw this Hot Cinnamon Picture Show Cinnamon Red Hot Soda. Oh, it's like big red.

Is it? I mean, hot cinnamon, that would be like big red gum or like red hots. Okay. I've never had big red soda. Nicholas, our video switcher, was like, you and Ryan should get this and drink it on the show.

And I said, I... It's probably good. I don't know about all that. I don't really do the weird sodas. I'm trying to quit soda completely. I've got like a zero sugar.

I've got a zero sugar ginger ale, but that's just me trying to wean off. You've had like big red gum though, right? No, I don't think so. Have you had the candy red hots? No.

Really? Are they hot? I mean, it's like spicy, but not- Here's what I want to do. Not like a pepper spicy. Here's what I want to do. I feel like you're still dealing with the throat thing.

Yeah, still kind of struggling a little bit. Maybe the Red Hot Cinnamon will soothe it. Do you want to go first?

Maybe it'll be like a terrible idea. Do you want to go first? I'm scared. I can.

You go first and just give me your action. Is this the twist top? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. All right.

This is the big- How many calories per bottle? 170? 170. All right, yeah.

Go for it and just see what's up. Okay, here we go. Maybe pure cane sugar. All right, here we go. I can hear it sizzling.

Oh, I can hear it. How is it? It's pretty good.

Yeah? Is it hot? No. It's not hot? No, it tastes like cinnamon. But not hot? No, it's not spicy. Oh, it's not?

No. I thought it was going to- Oh, well, it does taste like cinnamon. I thought it was going to be like hot. No, no, no. Like a pepper hot.

No, no. Like the Red Hot candy, they taste like that. The Red Hot candies have a little bit more of a kick than the soda does. The soda's more sweet than in anything. Yeah, this is way too sweet. It is very sweet. Dee Dee Kristin.

Dee Dee was the official emergency office worker as in IRS visits. She was flattered when she was told that this one suited her to a T. Try it for inspiration. What? This is too much exposition on a bottle of soda. Yeah, I don't care about a back story on the soda. Do you want some more? That's pretty good though.

No, I don't want any more. Yeah. That's not enough to- I drink it again.

That's not bad. You would drink it again? Yeah. See, I got it because I thought it was going to be hot, but it's not hot. It says Red Hot soda. No, the hot is like, if you try Big Red Gum or Red Hot, if you guys have tried that candy, you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah. It's got a spice to it. It's like real intense spice. But it's not, it's not like, like a pepper is spicy. Yeah, David, you want some?

It's not the same kind. Nick, you want some? No, you don't want it.

I got one for Dr. Shaw. I'll give it to him when he gets in here, but- Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, it's not worth 170 calories though. It tastes just like the candy. I've never had this candy. Maybe we need to get the candy on the show.

Maybe we need to get some of that. I can't believe you've never had like Hot Tamales. You've never had that? No, I don't think so.

Really? I had like a Reese's cup. That's not the same thing. Or like a, like a Kit Kat or something like that. No, that's not- Or Circus Peanuts. Now that's one thing I do like on Cracker Barrel. I love Circus Peanuts. Get out.

Circus Peanuts are terrible. Ooh gosh, it's starting to rise up in me. Get us into the ad before I start burping on here. Ryan didn't let us know. If you're a red hot candy person, if you like that hot spicy cinnamon candy, write in and let us know.

2525825028. Or if you've had a weird kind of soda before, write in and let us know. You know they have pickle soda? Yeah, I've had it.

It's weird. I might get some of that. I might get some of that. And I had peanut butter and jelly soda. Ew.

Yeah, it was kind of gross. Ryan, let us know your weird soda picks or you can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com. Stay tuned. We'll be right back. My stomach's gonna hurt. I see you just downed that entire bottle.

Yeah, my stomach's gonna hurt. Hey. Hey, you. Me? No, not you.

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Amen. Let's hop back into the show. Hey Clear View Today Show listeners and viewers.

Ryan here. And we want to let you know that on today's episode, we are going to be talking about things related to abortion and using some language to describe abortion processes. So, it might not be suitable for younger listeners, so make sure that you are listening responsibly. And I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back to Clear View Today with Dr. Abbadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can visit us online at ClearViewTodayShow.com or if you have any questions or suggestions for new topics, send us a text at 252-582-5028. That's right, and we're here once again in the Clear View Today studio with Dr. Abbadan Shah, who's a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, I got something on the table here for you, my friend. It's red hot. It's cinnamon.

I see it. It's 170 calories, so I wouldn't drink the whole thing. I drink the whole thing. 170 calories? It's 170 for the bottle. Yeah, I drank the whole thing earlier, and I regretted that.

43 grams of sugar? Yeah, it's very okay. And it covered a knife for me to assault? It just saw my leg? I just want you to try it. This is all Nicholas's idea, by the way.

Nicholas saw this. By the way, I can joke about diabetes because I have to make sure I'm good. My sugar doesn't go too high, so I'm not making fun of diabetics out there. I'm just talking about it myself. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

I want you to just try it. This is Nicholas. We went to Cracker Barrel.

We tried it in the intro. You remember, we went to Cracker Barrel for lunch. I remember that. And we were over there by all the fancy sodas and all the candies and stuff, and Nicholas said... He said, Nicholas, a lot of those things, and they're not good for you, but they're so good. They're pretty good, yeah. And they're right there in your face, which is by design. So you're like, oh, I just grabbed one of these.

I usually dislike that general store area. I'm just like, oh my goodness, can we eat? But then I saw these sodas, and Nicholas was like, we got to get one for the show. So I was like, we'll go get one. May as well get two and have Dr. Shaw try one. All right.

Picture show, cinnamon red hot soda. Go for it, dude. What do you think? That was a tiny sip?

No, I mean, I'll drink more. It's fine. It's not bad at all. It's not really hot. They call it red hot. Yeah, that's what I've said. I was disappointed. But it's barely cinnamon.

It's not red hot at all. Yeah. Mm-mm. Yeah. I could drink this all day.

Oh, that's what I was going to ask. Is it that it's just not hot, or do you like it? I actually like it. You like it? Yeah, I like it. Isn't it sickeningly sweet? It is. But you know my problem. I like sweet. That's my problem. That's been my problem.

It's very, very silky. I go looking and hunting for candy. I steal it from kids. Money, money. Steal it from kids.

Your kids. I take it from them. If this dude says one more, I just got a good bite. Yeah, buddy.

That was hilarious. So, okay, so you actually like it. I do.

Here's my follow-up question. Okay. Do you want me to keep the fridge stocked with them?

We got a little fridge right off camera. No. I mean, you can drink whatever you want. No, I don't want to. It's too sweet for me. They can have whatever they want. But you don't want them. Too sweet. I can't have them.

It's not like I don't want them. I'm going to drink this thing. Go for it.

Yeah, go for it. We got a great show lined up for you guys today. Every now and then, we might be sipping on some hot red cinnamon soda. Hot is a stretch.

It's for you, man. Cinnamon soda, I could get behind. It does taste, I mean, there are notes of cinnamon in there, but hot is a stretch. Nicholas, did you think your dad would like it? He didn't know one way or the other?

Yeah. I really thought you would be like, oh my gosh, this is really way too sweet. It's got soda in it, so that even makes it more fun. So, I didn't grow up in a big city.

I grew up in a small town, and we didn't have a television until 1983, I believe is when we got our television. And I would see these ads for soda. And they were not Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola was actually banned. Really?

Because of the stuff in it? No, it's because they wanted to sell their own stuff. Oh, well, okay. So, they had like Thumbs Up. Thumbs Up is still a drink in India. What? Thumbs Up is the name of the soda?

Hold on a second. Is it comparable to Coke? Is it like a brown soda?

Like Coke gone bad. Oh, well. It's not that great. Thumbs Up, but it's really thumbs down. No.

Would you drink it today? Yeah, there it is. Thumbs Up. Hold on a second.

I'm going to try to put it up on the TV. Oh, he's got it. There you go.

Thumbs Up Soda. India. Is it available anywhere other than India? It is. It is.

You can find it in Indian grocery stores and stuff. That's it? Yeah, that's it right there. Yeah, there it is.

Thumbs Up. There's the famous Indian actor, Shah Rukh Khan, who's holding it up. Shah Rukh Khan?

If you're like me, you would be drinking this. He's a famous Indian actor. Sounds like a Mortal Kombat character, Shah Rukh Khan.

Yeah, that's him right there, too. And then there's also Limca. Limca is like a sprite. Okay, yeah. It looks like kind of a lemon lime situation. But very lemony.

Okay. There's also Gold Spot. If you find Gold Spot, there's another one. But these are sodas in India. Should we get some for the fridge here? Oh, I think we've got to try some on the show.

I want to try them. There's Gold Spot. There's the right Gold Spot. There's like orange soda? Yeah. It is like Fanta. Okay.

Which one do you like better? Fanta was in India before it was in America. Really? In 2000, I remember drinking Fanta in India. I'm like, they shouldn't name things better, Fanta. Who comes up with a Fanta?

Next thing you know, it's in America. Everybody's drinking Fanta. Don't you wanna want a Fanta? Yeah, I remember that.

And I'm like, wait, it's here? So thumbs up Gold Spot, Limca, Citra? Citra is something came after I left. Okay. Maza was there.

Maza is more like mango. Okay, okay. Thrill was like, it could not compete with Thumbs Up, but it was there. Give me a shot. Like an RC call.

You're 100% right. Please drink me. Yeah, please drink. Like an RC call. So what I would do is, I would play soccer. I was a soccer team. And I would leave, once I would finish practicing, finish pickup game, whatever, headed home. I would kind of look around and say, nobody here. I would make my way to this little shop that would sell these sodas.

And I would sit there and drink it before I got home. Yeah. That was my little... That was like your dream. Yeah, my dream.

Go for it, man. After a hard day of studying, you just gotta kick back with a thumbs up. Did you ever give the guy a thumbs up when you drink?

No. Oh, okay. Yeah, fair enough.

But you're supposed to. Thanks, mister. The verse of the day today is coming to us from Luke chapter 10, verse 23. Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, blessed are the eyes which see the things you see. Imagine being one of the 12 disciples and walking with Jesus and actually seeing him go through his life and go through his ministry and walk on water. I know it's crazy, and we say this as a point like the disciples wouldn't have given their laughs or something and knew it to be a lie. I get that. But if I had truly seen a man walk on water... Yeah, think about seeing the miracles. If I'd seen a man speak to the dead and they come out of the cave and they raise himself up from the dead, I don't know if I could have denied it either.

I don't know that I could have. You know what I mean? That's right. That's right. But it was much more than that. Yeah. It was not just that he walked on the waves, but this is an Old Testament reference to God, that God walks on the water.

Yeah, true. And when Jesus did that miracle, it was more than just like, this person is unlike any human I've seen. It was more that this person is God. The God of the Old Testament, the Yahweh of the Old Testament, the angel of the Lord of the Old Testament is among us.

Right. And he's chosen. And I mean, again, he chose 12 people, 12 men.

Imagine being like, of all the people who have ever and will ever exist, I'm one of the 12 that Yahweh himself has chosen. I can't imagine. It is crazy.

It is. And you know what's funny? People still throw shade at the disciples. Peter was such a bumpkin, man. Peter, what are you going to do with him? I'm like Peter. I like Peter. I'm like, you are not like Peter and you don't understand Peter.

If you read 1 Peter, 2 Peter and just try to understand the depth of his theological acumen, which means understanding, that man understood. Oh, yeah. He was brilliant. 100%. Yes.

100%. And he was a humble guy because he kept saying, Paul is smarter than I am. Paul is way more, he is deep. Peter was deep. That's right.

That's right. Shout out to my man, Peter. Shout out, Peter. I'm going to give Peter some love, too. Good job, Peter. Hashtag Peter. Hashtag Peter. Hashtag give it up for Peter.

Well, Dr. Shell, we've been talking a lot about this upcoming election. We've been talking about it on the show. We've been talking about a lot of the things that Americans are crying out for. They're crying out for change. They're crying out to go... And again, we want to go back to this time where America, it was never perfect. It was never this ideal golden thing. We talked about that on yesterday's show.

But we want to go back to a time where Christian values mattered. And I think above all, people are... I don't want to say hung up, but they are fixated.

Not fixated either, because that has a connotation. People are drawn to this discussion of abortion. This is always the one that it always inevitably comes back to. Especially in the past five decades, since Roe v. Wade, this has become a big talking point.

It has become a big point of contention. What do we do with abortion? And is it the right to choose, or is it the right to life? And we, as believers, say it's not about choice. This is about life. Yeah.

I mean, there's a living, breathing person there. There's someone who's actually suffering the consequences of your choice. The choice is not really what's at discussion here.

Yeah. Your choices stop when they start infringing upon the life of another person. And it's an old problem. That's what we focused on in our last show, that this is an old problem that Christians recognized, and even the Jewish people recognized and said, we've got to fix this.

This is not right. And it has come back to haunt us. And last week, or last show, I talked about it a little bit on how ancient writers talked about abortion.

I want to do that a little more, because I think people need to hear something other than what this candidate says this, and this candidate said that, or this favorite preacher said this, and this Christian leader was saying this. We need to hear the voices from the past. That's true.

That's true. And how did they wrestle with this issue? Because two things will happen. Number one, we will understand that this is an old issue, and it's not some propped up scarecrow. This is an old issue. Secondly, we will know how to handle it. This is how they fixed it in the past.

That can work today as well. And they did fix it in the past. I think I'm glad that you brought that up, because someone can say, well, if it's this old an issue, then clearly we're not going to fix it. But it has been fixed. No, it has been fixed. Yeah. And there's hope.

If we look to the past and see how people have responded, we can have hope for how we can course correct today. Absolutely. That's right. So Celsus.

Celsus, again, poet, writer, philosopher, all of that put together. In his book De Medicina, which is The Medicine, he's describing how to remove a dead fetus in the third trimester. And I don't want to read every detail, because I know it's going to be difficult for our viewers and listeners to listen to.

But I'm going to just give you an idea that this is an old issue. He said, an operation must be done, which may be counted among the most difficult, for it requires both extreme caution and neatness and entails a very great risk. The surgeon, it goes on, talks about how they have to put their finger inside the womb and try to then insert this hook. And it has to be hooked.

It has this pointed edge, and it has to hook inside the baby and begin to take it limb by limb. Wow. Yeah. He's describing this. Yeah.

No different than what's- What is being done today. By the way, it may not be as crude, but it's just as much violent. Oh, it's violent.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's terrible. I mean, it's the most traumatic. I mean, it's killing.

It's killing this baby. Yeah. Pliny, Pliny the Younger.

I don't know how you know about him, his writings tell us about the fact that Christians were being persecuted and all that in certain areas. He says to provide an abortion from the 10th day after conception into the seventh month of pregnancy. Wow. Wow. They could have abortion.

That's incredible. I mean, that's like the baby could be a newborn. Yeah.

They could be holding the baby. Yeah. I mean, their baby is born within seven month pregnancies all the time, right? That's right.

That's not that uncommon. So there were anti-abortion legislations in classical Greece. Did you know that? Classical Greece means you're going back to the time of Homer, you know, even back then they were talking about the need to have some kind of laws against this.

Yeah. Now there is some issue whether this source is accurate or not, because it's known as pseudo Galen, which means it's attributed to this medical expert named Galen, but it's not written by him. So somebody else wrote it in Galen's name. Hence it's known as pseudo Galen.

This work is not. And in this work, what is important is that he gives information from two different individuals. One is a ninth century BC Spartan lawgiver by the name of Lycurgus. And the second is Solon. Solon is from the sixth century BC, who was an Athenian lawgiver. And both of them were talking about banning abortion.

When are we talking about? Not 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2012 or 2024, we're talking about the ninth century BC Sparta. Wow.

Right. So Jesus wouldn't even be around for another 900 something years. This is even prior to Homer, who wrote the Iliad and Odyssey. What is sixth century BC Athenian lawgiver?

I mean, you're talking about 600 years before Christ means the Babylonian exile hasn't happened yet. Wow. Yeah. And they're talking about the problem with abortion.

They're talking about banning it. In Greece. In Greece, the laws need to be passed to stop this thing. Yeah. This is not a uniquely American 21st century problem. No.

Or European problem. By the way, in Europe, you know, did you read about the British guy who was arrested because he was praying outside a clinic? No, I didn't. Yeah. Oh, I think I did see that. I think I did see that. Wow. They were outside of an abortion clinic and they arrested him.

Yeah. Just the dangerous praying man. He's just standing there praying. He's not stopping anybody. He's not holding up a plaque or nothing.

He just prays. Wow. To protect and serve? Yeah. Yeah. And then also they charged him like $11,000 in our money because he's praying outside an abortion clinic. Yeah.

Talk to me again about how Europe is so much better than America. Yeah. I'm like, wow. Exposure of newborns was so common in Greece. But it was not, you know, not much laws were made against that.

Exposure means taking a newborn baby and just leaving out in the woods. Gosh. Wow.

Because you don't want them. But make sure you arrest the praying guy. Yeah.

That's cool. I cannot. I cannot.

Just don't show up here and pray. Yeah. And then Egyptian laws, by the way, this was interesting.

They favored the unborn child. Really? Egyptian law did. Interesting. It is interesting. Yeah.

I wouldn't have thought that. The Greeks were like, kill them, kill them. Yeah. Egyptians were like, you can't do that. So when the Greeks, according to this writer, when they came in contact with the Egyptians, they sort of learned from them, maybe we shouldn't kill babies. You think?

Okay. Here's very interesting Hippocrates, right? We heard of the oath of Hippocratic oath. This is 460 to 537 BC, I'm sorry, 357 BC, 460 to 357 BC.

So somewhere the turn of the fifth, fourth century. Listen to the Hippocratic oath. He said, I swear by Apollo physician, by Asclepius, I've been to an Asclepion in Greece before, by health, by panacea, and by all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses that I will carry out according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture. I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrongdoing. Neither will I administer a poison to somebody, I can't read right. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly, I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion.

Pessary is like a potion drink. So it's in the Hippocratic oath that you won't do this. And the same doctors who took that Hippocratic oath are performing abortions. Yep.

Do abortions... Wow. That's crazy, isn't it? It is.

That's insane. Yeah. Why take the oath? That's where the debate comes into what are you doing, is that a life that you're actually taking? That's why the semantics are so important, because if they're taking a life, then they're violating the Hippocratic oath. But if it's not alive, then it's a mass, and it's removing it from the mother's health. So the doctors can still do that and say in good conscience, good conscience, I use that term loosely, I'm not violating the Hippocratic oath. You know, we talk about Plato, Plato, smart guy, brilliant guy, blah, blah, blah. He was sort of before Aristotle the Great and everything, and not Aristotle the Great, Aristotle the philosopher, who was the mentor for Alexander the Great.

Plato, as I mentioned a few moments ago, recommended abortion. Yeah. Yeah. Listen to what he said. You want to hear that?

Yeah, let's hear it. He said, a woman, I said, at 20 years of age may begin to bear children to the state and continue to bear them until 40. And we grant all this accompanying the permission with strict orders to prevent any subsequent embryo which may come into being from seeing the light. And if any force a way to the birth, the parents must understand that the offspring of such a union cannot be maintained and arranged accordingly.

So if you are in that age bracket and you want to not have the child, you can arrange it to be disposed of. Wow. That was Plato's suggestion, I guess. That's Plato's suggestion. And he also, by the way, supported infanticide, killing of children.

Wow. Sometimes it's necessary, you know. Yeah, not such a great guy, old Plato, I don't think he deserves the standing O we always give him.

Yeah. But he's moral, unfortunately, in his ideal politics. This is book seven through eight. He says the most desirable form of life for the individual and the state and to produce this finest human material, the state must regulate marriage. So I mean, we've been here before where state was getting into all our business. And so he wrote this. He said, let there be a law. So sad that no deformed child shall be reared.

Really? Oh, this is Aristotle. Wow. But on the ground of number of children, if the regular customs hinder any of those born being exposed, there must be a limit fixed to the procreation of offspring. And if any people have a child as a result of intercourse in contravention of these regulations, abortion must be practiced on it before it has developed sensation and life.

So to him, it wasn't even a suggestion. It was a mandate. Yeah. Had to be done.

Wow. For the line between lawful and unlawful abortion will be marked by the fact of having sensation and being alive. So we've been discussing this for a while. This is not something that we just started.

So that's I think that's maybe a good point where we can wrap up this episode on Dr. Sheff. Someone's listening and they're like, OK, I hear you. And I agree. It's an old problem. Why do I need to know that? Why? What does that have to do with what we're saying now? The key word there is problem, OK? It is a problem. And so we have to ask ourselves, why is it a problem? It is a problem because we are killing a being.

That's true. Whether the person cannot talk, whether the person has medical issues, whether the person has special needs, does that mean that it's OK to kill him? No different when it comes to that unborn child. And the bodily autonomy doesn't hold water either because what if one Siamese, and I know we're getting into hypotheticals, but they're still, they hold water. What if one Siamese twin wants to kill the other? Well, my twin is infringing on my body.

You've got to kill him. It's not an argument that holds any water. No, it doesn't. Episodes like today are so helpful for us in understanding why this is a problem and why our vote matters because it is a spiritual battle, the election that we're headed toward. And we want you to understand that.

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John, what you want to plug as we close the episode today? Definitely want to plug Dr. Sean Nicole's book, 30 Days of Praying for America. Make sure you get your copy on Amazon and iTunes right now. You can get something on iTunes, and that is our album, our debut album, Heaven Here and Now. It's available on iTunes, Spotify, anywhere digital music is sold. We want that to be a resource for you and your family and for your church, so make sure you pick up your copy today.

That's right. Make sure you guys are here tomorrow. Lots of great content coming your way. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on ClearVee Today.