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Fun fact, no. I have to make my own with McDonald's Sprite, and you guessed it, Texas Pete. I am genuinely horrified to hear that.
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Where's my Mountain Dew? What's going on, listeners? My name is John.
And I'm David. And we hope you are enjoying the podcast thus far. You know, we really appreciate how many of you download the podcast every day.
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All right. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. You can find us online by visiting clearviewtodayshow.com, or if you have any questions for Dr. Shah or suggestions for new topics, send us a text to 252-582-5028, or you can email us at contact at clearviewtodayshow.com.
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But we're going to leave a couple of links right there in the description so you can help us do just that. We're here again in the Clear View Today studio with Dr. Abaddon Shah, who is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, alongside special guest Victoria Collins. Good to see you again. Good to see you again.
The air horn kills me every time. I'll do it again. Yeah, I'll do two air horns. Sure.
Why not? Because yesterday's conversation was so good. It's so good to have you back. I'm so glad to be here.
Yes. Thank you for coming back. We're excited about today's show.
This is going to be very, very special. If you missed yesterday's episode, you can go back. And in fact, I would say you need to go back, because that was just part one of Victoria's story.
You are an ex-Mormon and you converted to Christianity. And so you sort of told us about your upbringing yesterday. Kind of mirrors your dad with, you know, kind of, and I liked what you were saying, the unraveling. If you ever write a book, you need to call it the unraveling. That was a really great title. That's a great title. We kept saying that. That's a great title. Because that's really what it was.
It was with your father and then with your parents as well. You're starting to see these truths that I'm basing my life and my children's eternities upon are starting to reveal themselves as not true. Right. And years and years and years of believing certain things. It's hard.
It's very difficult. Now for me, I grew up in a Christian home, so I praise God. I mean, I grew up in a pastor's home in fact.
But for my dad to see those layers come off, I wish I could go back in time and see that happening to him. Yeah. But you get to kind of. Yeah. In a way. Yes. Yes. Of course.
Of course. And so I, you know, when Victoria was talking, I was hearing the same things. Albeit, it was about Mormonism. And I'm kind of hearing my dad's testimony in a way. Right.
Right. That's amazing. So with yesterday, Victoria, we heard about your story growing up, what it was like to walk away from the Mormon faith. But let's talk a little bit about what conversion looked like for you when you came to faith in Christ. You mentioned meeting your husband and then looking for a rental house.
Yes. So my neighbor, when we pulled up, my neighbor had a sign out front and it said, as for me and my family, we serve the Lord. And I was like, uh oh, here's these Jesus people. And there was even a little bit of this when my husband and I got together, I thought, this is it.
He is it for me. But I remember telling him, I was like, yeah, but you know, the Book of Mormon, because I was trying to bring it back up because here I am, eternity. Was he atheist when you were married? He wasn't.
He just was teetering on truth. I don't think he was like, oh, yeah, I don't believe it was just more of, I don't know what's true. And so he grew up in a he grew up and his dad actually passed away when he was 13. And so that was really traumatic because he was a wonderful father. I know he was because my husband is a wonderful father. And so, I think it was hard for him at a young age. He had to go to a Christian school.
And so, cause he was misbehaving. And guess what they taught there? The Bible. And so he, I remember bringing out my little Book of Mormon and I was, I was like, oh my goodness, you know, this is this.
And he goes, you know, that's not in the Bible. And this is like when we first got together, I was like, oh my goodness, here's this great guy. And I was like, it's not. And so I was like, wait, what is this? And then my neighbor next door, we started talking.
She had kids that had no shoes on and run around with chickens. And we just had so much in common, but she's had such a light, a light of Christ on her. And I was just like, what is that?
Like, what is that? And then it just unraveled the next two years and just good conversation, not attacking, just like, what's your background? What's just the calmest loving way ever. And they invited us over for dinner. And then the next day we went to church and it was amazing because my husband was saved after the sermon and that whole week. And then that Tuesday I was saved. And that following Sunday, my oldest was saved. So the Lord worked quick, quick, quick, quick. So it was definitely God's hand.
But I did need, I was like, what is this? He got saved. He went up in front of this church and I was like, I didn't understand. And I had to unravel the Mormonism.
That part of me had to go. So if you could put yourself back in that day where, how many, three of your kids got saved or two? Just one. One. Okay. But three of us. But three.
The same way. So what, if you could put yourself back in that moment, what's going through your mind when someone says to you, hey, guess what? I'm saved. And now our son is saved.
What is? I didn't know. They had my friend's dad. He came and sat with us and talked to us the next day because we didn't know what was going on. I was like, I just know he went up there and he accepted Jesus.
So I don't know exactly. And of course they gave him the mic too. And my husband's like, I don't know what to say. I knew I was a sinner and I needed a savior. And that's it. And I was like, okay, cool.
This is great. And then the next day they came and sat with us and they're like, you know, and you can give your life right now. And I was like, uh, no, this is the same week. This is Monday.
So this is Sunday and then Monday. And he's like, and if you'd like to, and I was like, well, I know I'm a good person. I know I'm a good person.
Cause it's the thing that everybody, it's, it's very similar. I'm not the only one. I was like, I know I'm a good person. I don't, I don't, I'm good.
I think I'm honestly fine. So that's, that's kind of my question. Like how did, when he said that, Hey, guess what? I got saved today. How did that play with your Mormon understanding? I couldn't, I was no reference point. Oh, we're going to church on Sundays.
Okay. We can't go to the Mormon church because we were still drinking and we were still partying. And I was like, no, I know I can't go there.
They won't even let me walk in or they're going to all look at me. Like, why are you here? So I, yeah, I was, I was just like, what is this? And then the next day they came and sat with us and you can keep your life. And I was like, I'm a good person. And he goes, he's like, I've done good things.
He's like, they're like filthy rags. I was like, look at all my children. And Oh my goodness. Bless, bless me. And the Lord did, but Oh my goodness, look at all my children.
This, it just was unraveling. And then the next day I worked with who trained me in her spot at work to get all the permits and inspections. She actually grew up, she was Mormon. She was converted, but she told me to read.
And right now she's just like agnostic, I think. And she told me to read this letter. So she's actually a part of my testimony and it's going to make me tear up because I know that the Lord is working in her, but she said to read the CES letter. And that's where a Mormon missionary come.
He sat down with a pastor and he said between the Bible and the book of Mormon, and it just laid it all out there. And I threw my hands up in that moment. I only got halfway through this letter. I threw my hands up and I was like, I need Jesus.
I need Jesus. And I went next door to, I texted my friend and said, I need to come over right now. And we, we were still like through the fence level and she invited me over, but like we weren't there yet. We weren't sisters, but we were about to be. And so I was like, I need to come over right now. And I, on the floor of her living room with our children running around, I accepted Jesus. Wow.
That's beautiful. So I want to, I want to kick it to you, Dr. Shaw, because you, you know, you have been a pastor now for 25, 26, 27 years. And you know, I can imagine if someone came to you and they were like, Hey, I've been an atheist for a long time.
I don't believe in anything. It's almost like a blank slate where you're starting to introduce these beliefs. How do you then with someone like Victoria, where they're like, I'm coming from a system of deeply held beliefs, but they're twisted and they're, they're, they've gotten jumbled up and now we have to untangle them rather. Is that, is it easier?
Is it harder? Do you feel that there's a foundation to build from or is it like we have to dismantle things? You really have to trust in the Holy Spirit to work. And I think that's what was happening here because in human reasoning you can, yeah, of course you have to give reasons. You have to explain and apologetics and all that falls into place.
But without God, the Holy Spirit working in that person's life, we are helpless. And so I'm sure you saw that happening. He was so gracious because I was told not to trust the Bible. And so, um, it took years. I, we were not consistently in church.
Um, there was a lot of just ups and downs. Like this is a good thing, but I was also very still prideful and I was very, um, just not humble. Like I wanted to hide my past. I know I was saved from my past, but I want to, and I realized that that was actually my biggest ministry.
And so I was like, I cannot, like he is exposing things, but it took six years and it really wasn't until last year that I finally realized that missing piece was myself. I was the, I was in, in the way. And I remember watching the mirror. Have you guys seen the miracle girl where she does?
Okay. It's, it's like one of the Christian movies and I watched that and I was like, she's performing miracles. I was like, that's wild. I was like, okay, this is great.
But we had all the full goods and it was great. And then I kept hearing, you're going to die. And I'm like, I'm going to die. I was like, wait a minute. I was like, that's like, that's the devil or what is that?
And I'm going to die. And then it was died to self. Like I was holding on to who I was and all my strength and I realized that she had to go. Like I didn't like, I still was like, oh, but she did. And the Lord just kept saying that over and I remember being on my knees and just saying, Lord, I, I don't like her.
I don't want to be her. Please, please make me the new creation. And that took six years, y'all. That was six years. So God's timing is perfect every single time. What brought you to Clearview, to Henderson, you know, to, to where we are today?
How did that happen? Well, I love our church. It's we're actually four minutes from, we were four minutes from faith and we were going there and loved our church fam, still love everybody there. And I actually went to Bible study with the person that lived next door that helped me find Jesus and went to a Bible study at her house. And I caught wind of somebody talking about hell. And I was like, there's, there's somebody preaching about it. Like I need to, that's part of my unraveling.
Like this is, this is part of my journey. Is that uncommon? Do you think? Um, I think so. I think that those are hot talk.
Those are like hot topics, but like not, you know, the normal thing. That's what I needed. Obviously my spidey senses went off and I was like, this is what I need. Like I know the Holy Spirit. And so the way home I was like, Lord, I'm not going to a church in Henderson.
This is, this is far. I was like 30 minutes every Sunday. And you know, I struggle with getting to church anyway.
You got how many kids? You know, get in the car, get in the car. And so I, um, I was like, all right, if this is it, Lord, please confirm. And I heard the yes. And I'm like, okay, I know you said yes, but let me get, can you give me one more? Yes.
Cause you know, I know the enemies that work in our lives. I need a yes. Plus I need a yes. And then I hear yes. And I'm like, okay, okay.
I said it twice, but I do need a third and so yes. And so I was like, all right, that's it. And that Sunday, um, you were just talking on heaven and of course with my husband and I was like, I don't feel like it's far away and it's just not. And I'm just like, these are the questions.
I, in my personal Bible study that, and my husband and our conversations that I was looking for and he hit all of them and we were in tears. We were in tears and I know you can't see us as much, but we were just back there. We're looking at each other. We're like, geez.
Well, here's the thing. That's, that's an encouragement because when we started, we, we made, I don't know about that, Mia, we, I mean, you made an intentional shift in your preaching to start doing these things and start covering doctrines that people had questions about and that people struggled with. And there was a time where we as a team like got together and we talked about it and we said, is this something that's worth doing?
Cause it's a radical shift in preaching. And so to hear that it was that desire that brought you here in the first place, God connected us. Do you want to just kind of talk to that?
Yeah. I mean, God has been working on our hearts, on our team, you know, and of course we always had biblical preaching and we'll continue doing that, but it was becoming more intentional in thinking, God, where are you speaking to people that we need to be in tune with your heart, taking the word of God, the Bible, and answering those questions because we are doing it, we're preaching and teaching, but are we really connecting in the conversations you're having? And when we did that, we actually had a conversation start of the year. We said, we need to intentionally pray for that.
And we did. And through that, we've had so many people in the past four or five months come and say, you answered something for us, your message or your series. And we're like, wow, it's gotta be God.
Now I see that you guys have these microphones and I'm like, are you sure they're not in our car? Like every Sunday I'm like, wait a minute. And there was even, I think last Sunday or the Sunday before and my husband, when we look at each other and we're just like, he was in the middle of our date night.
He was in the middle of our date. It's crazy because some of the things that you've said really strike me. They really, really strike me. And I've said this on the show before, but I grew up here in the heart of the South in a very Christian environment. I mean, I got saved at 15, but I've grown up and Christians were around. So for me, there's also this like sheltered bubble. I think we've talked about this on the show where a lot of Christians, especially when you grow up this way, you assume everyone's like you.
I don't know if it's an American thing, a Christian thing, a Southern thing, but everyone's like this. So to hear you say, well, I was told not to trust the Bible or people don't talk about hell. Those to me are very, I'm very intrigued by that. Because you're really shifting the way that I think because I didn't know that.
To think that someone would be told you can't trust that, that's wild to me. That is more the norm now, I would say, not just Mormonism or somebody coming from that background. This is the cultural norm now. Yeah. And I think that's what makes conversations like this so crazy is because it's revealing a part of human nature and a part of that false doctrine that's out there that I think up until this point, and if not for this show, I think people wouldn't even know.
They would just kind of like, like we said yesterday, Mormonism exists and it's wrong, but it goes so much deeper than that. Right. Absolutely. There's the spiritual too, like there's just the undoing of like the enemy. The enemy is strategic.
He's such a snake and he tries so hard, so many different angles. And so if you give him a strong hold, that's what happens. And I'm glad that after coming from a workspace salvation and understanding what being obedient is, is very interesting and such a great understanding to keep us safe. Our salvation is done. And you say that every Sunday, your salvation is in Jesus and you need to make that decision.
But when we're obedient, we're protected from ourselves and others. And so I'm like, that's the next step and that's what takes many years to realize. That's a normal Christian thing, I think. Can you expand on that a little bit? I want to get into the theology of what this is when you say a works-based salvation. I think we were talking about this.
We had lunch before we started recording today. Do you mean that like you have to do good things or do you mean kind of like with your father, Dr. Shah, and the religion of Islam, like there are core tenants and there are core pillars, like you have to check these off? Or is it more like you have to do good deeds and somehow you'll know that you have become saved?
I think it's both. I think that you think you're earning your own planet and your own godliness. And then also you checkmarks, like you have to get baptized when you're eight because that's the age of accountability. And then you have to go through the temple and you have to take, when you turn 18, you do your temple ordinances. What is the temple? Is that a building? Like a place? It's a building. And you have to be found worthy by the bishop to be able to enter because it's holy ground.
Wow. So the place you meet- We're the temple, but they would also teach that and I was like, wait a minute. How are we the temple, but why are we going here?
That didn't really make sense to me. Is that the place you meet week to week? No, that's separate from the actual like church.
Okay. So there's churches, but then there's, is there one temple or is there many temples? There's many temples. They're all over and you have to be found worthy to go in there.
And they also do ceilings. So they hold your family captive, but they also hold your family captive because they want you to be sealed to your family for all eternity. That's what they say. And so if they do this ritual in the temple, then they get salvation and that your family will be saved and you get a guarantee. And I'm just like, it's so much more than that.
Like we have to accept that personally. And so, and that's a choice. Is it a family salvation?
It is. Then what happens if one member of the family? They're going to come back because you already had that ritual. So even if they stray, they're going to come back. So maybe a temporary thing, but they are sealed so they can't be gone forever. Yes.
Which is where you can see the enemy's work. Like all of the things that actually as a Christian you do struggle with, you know that the prodigal son will come back and if you train him in the way, he won't depart from it. And all the things that you see now, that if you can confirm that through a ritual, then maybe that looks great too, you know? Did your father hold similar beliefs about Islam? I mean, I know that the belief, the specifics are different, but like this works-based salvation where you have to. Yes.
You have to hold people under perpetual guilt or shame and you hang onto them. And so they, they are connected and there are benefits, you know, like Mormonism, very family-based, so also Islam, very family-based. I see a lot of similarities here, kind of odd, worlds apart and yet they're very similar. Same enemy. Yeah, same enemy.
The tactics are the same. So people are, you know, when it came time for my dad to step out, it was it, this is it. No turning back. Family was the big thing. It was not wealth.
It was not about his, his future. It was about family. I'm going to lose my family. That keeps you in. You're going to lose your family.
Then, oh my goodness, maybe I'll stay. I'll just take it. Alienate it. Get it when it happens. Yeah.
Yeah. What I'm hearing a lot from, from Dr. Shaw, your story about your dad and Victoria, your story as well is a lot of shortcuts that, that the enemy is trying to promote. Like you want your family to be in eternity with you rather than, you know, taking the difficult road and trusting and stepping out in faith. Here's how you can confirm this. Or you want to, you know, believe in salvation. Well, it's difficult to believe, but it's easy to accomplish a checklist.
So here's, here's a shortcut to this promised reality. So you have assurance, but it's not assurance in what Christ did. It's assurance in what I've done. Right. Ritual you've performed.
They performed in a temple that only you can go in because of your good works. Yeah. Yeah.
It's very interesting to see side by side. Yeah. I mean, it's not the five pillars, right? You have the shahada, you have the, the, the tithing.
Well, of course it's less, 2.5% a fasting. So you're like, yeah, I know it costs more. You're financially in there too.
You don't think you have like, especially if you're successful. And that's not optional tithing to the church. No, it's not.
You're not going to get your little card to enter the temple if you have not paid, if you've not tithed. Really? Wow.
Regardless of how hard it is or Isn't that funny? Yeah. So it's not like, like we, well, like we encourage people to give, but we can't like say, Hey, you're not coming.
Don't pay your life bill. In the lobby like, yeah. I don't know. But this, and then they tell stories to guilt you into it instead of just failing. How many people or what percentage would you say believe this with their whole heart?
I'm sold out. And how many people are in Mormonism that are like, I'm just scared or I'm guilt or I'm shame. And it's easier not to ask questions. Oh my goodness.
I don't know. I just know that I, there's so many people that know who Jesus Christ is and that that is his salvation and still in the church, but are just stuck in it. But also old age, like once you get older, you're just like, okay, this is what I've done. This is my every Sunday.
This is what got me through the hard times, this same pattern. So I wouldn't really know percentage, but I know the Lord is shifting. Yeah.
So many people. I know that he is going, I pray daily and I pray for all that come to know that it really is a free gift. Like, Hey, do you want to hear the good news? That doesn't sound like the best news cause I'm going to fail. But it is good news.
And it, I know that there is big changes. Same thing with in Islam. You know, when I went home, saw at my dad's church, couple of people who had a dream that Jesus told them to go to the church or go to somebody who will hear, give them the gospel. So God is working whether we can see it or not. He is working in Islam. He's working in Mormonism. He is bringing people to the truth. And the truth is Jesus Christ is the way, truth and life. It's encouraging to hear cause cause in America these days we tend to think that Christianity is on the decline when God is gearing up to do so.
It's a whole different way. I feel it like I just, and I know feelings are fleeting, but I see it too. And I'm seeing the works and also I feel like we always get, I get so excited about my testimony and what God's doing and I want to get out there and I want to share the news and maybe I should go on a mission trip, but my biggest mission trip is right around me.
It's at the baseball field. It's, it's with the people that I meet and I, I'm encouraged because I'm doing kingdom work. Like I know that's such a great perspective, but like I really want them to know and have the freedom here cause it's hard. It's hard without Jesus. That's right. That's right.
That's right. I mean, that's, that's what the Holy Spirit is. He is the spirit of hope.
You know, Romans 15, 13, we talked about that. When he comes, he brings hope and hope is lives are being changed. God is working. This is not the current climate in Christianity is like, Oh, the best days are over. No, the best days have just begun.
In fact, the best days are here. That's such a great point. We get so fatalistic looking at the news or thinking about, you know, this report of this church closing down, but hearing, hearing stories like this, hearing stories about like your dad coming to faith, you know, it reminds us, we talked about being sheltered earlier. It reminds us that God is working on a global scale. And as part of the church, we get the chance to be a part of that. That's huge.
That's incredible. The one thing that God has really underlined for me this past year doing this show. And then I think even with this conversation is that there's so much bigger of a world out there and people believe way more diverse. And I don't say diverse in a good way, like, like crazy things like there's so much false doctrine out there, but then it just makes God all that much more glorious when he brings people like you and like your father. And when he works in this way, just shows that he's so much bit like the world is way bigger than I thought, but God is even bigger than that. And it's it, I don't know. It's just when we expect revival or awakening in America to come a certain way, he's like, I am bringing it, but it's in a whole different way.
Watch this. And I think in the years ahead, we're going to see Mormons coming to know Christ and really know, and people from Islam coming to know Christ, Hinduism, Buddhism. I think we're going to see a whole different way. And it requires for us to stay grounded in the truth and know who we are, know why we believe what we believe, stay humble. We have to stay humble and just watch. And also I would add, be aware of the enemy.
The enemy is always, always, I mean, you had spiritual warfare this week, keeping you from coming and speaking. And then I was like, finally stood up. I was like, enough, enough, we're going.
We ride at dawn, actually two o'clock, but you know. Yeah. By the grace of God, he brought you here. He brought you here. That's awesome. If you could say, and I know this is difficult because God has done so much in your life and God has done so much in your life and all of our lives, it's so hard to put it into one sentence, but if you could say, if you could leave our listeners with one thing, one truth that God has left with you and that you want to impress upon our listeners, what would that truth be?
Jesus lived the perfect life for us and he forgives us and loves us and he will never leave us and he will continue to perfect us and build this house until we're with him. So hang in there. It gets better. Victoria keeps taking the best lines.
I can agree more. I would say, and I know there are Victorias out there and my dad, like people are out there and they need us to come and to share the good news and trust what the Holy Spirit will do to bring that person to the living true God. That's amazing, man. So encouraging. Victoria, thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your story. Dr. Jha, thank you for sharing about your dad as well. So encouraging for us to know that God is working and that we at the Clearview Today Show get to be a part of that and you can be a part of that as well.
That's right. Text in and let us know what you got from today's episode, 252-582-5028. You can visit us online at ClearviewTodayShow.com. You can be a part of what God is doing through our show by scrolling to the bottom, clicking that donate button and becoming part of our Clearview Today Show family. Lots of great programming coming up this week. Make sure you guys stay tuned. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on Clearview Today.
