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Now let's jump in. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they are three in one, perfect unity in the Godhead, and yet very different roles. The three of us are going to talk about that together on the PRV Today show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah, and we want to hear from you as well.
Make sure you text us 252-429-6069. And if today's your first time ever texting the show, text today, T-O-D-A-Y, so you can join the conversation right this moment. Dr. Shah, we've been in this conversation about the Trinity, and it feels like we've been in there for several episodes, but there's still so much that we don't understand. There's many different word pictures that we can try to use to craft it together.
And as we've heard, as many metaphors or analogies as people try to pull out, you have just about as many heresies.
Well, it's a rabbit hole, right? Like, it's one conversation opens up another, which opens up another. And eventually you got to circle back to what is this Trinity? How does it work? is a difficult topic.
I mean, I'll acknowledge that. I remember sitting in Theology, systematic theology classes, and just wondering how do you understand this? How can you get your mind wrapped around this concept that God is three and yet one? We don't worship three gods, we worship one God in three persons. I'm like, it doesn't make sense.
It doesn't compute. This is mathematically Impossible. One God in three persons. But it's not three gods, it's one. Yeah.
But yet they're distinct. I'm like, oh my goodness. How do you work that out? And how do I worship this per this being? By the way, just to just to tell you that this is the truth, the Trinity is the truth.
is because There are false trinities out there. I mean, how do you know that there is a real Rolex out there? It's when you go to New York, especially near Chinatown, and they sell you a Folex. You know the real thing when you got it. Yeah, when you hear somebody sell you that watch, they tried it with me.
Or what are what are those? Those glasses, you know, Oakleys. Oakleys. Yeah. They had Focleys.
I got a pair of Focleys when we went to New York City one time. I did. They sold them out of a trash bag. Really, oh, Ryan. It was a guy carrying on a big bag of sunglasses.
Why did you buy it? Because they were $10 and I wanted a chance to say I got a fake pair of sunglasses in New York City. Folkly's out of a trash bag? Yeah. Are you embarrassed?
No. I was in high school. What do I care? Does it really say F-O-C-K? No, D-Y.
No, the logo looks very similar, but if you look at them side by side, you can see it. It's a little bit different. Yeah, they don't want to get their behind sued. Just different enough. They're like, no, no, see, it's different.
But at a glance, you wouldn't know. I did buy. Actually, I didn't buy it, but it was with a friend who was about to buy a CD off of a peddler. He was like, he came and harassed us. He was like, hey, yeah, you want to listen?
I was like, I'm good, man. He was playing it. He was like, oh, you can't listen for free. You got to buy it. And my friend was like, okay, I guess I'll buy it.
I thought we bought it. No, she was about to. And I was like, Lindsay, come on. And I like, I took her by the arm and the dude got angry. Yeah, don't play with my bread, son.
Don't play with my bread. Just keep walking. Selling a CD on the street is wild. In 2016, 2016. A CD is 2016.
I was like, what am I going to play that on, man? Anyway, nothing at all to do with the Trinity, but. That's Mandy Yorkshire. But that tells you that since there is a real deal, you will have. The fake.
Yeah, that's a great point. If there's a phony or if there's a knockoff, it's got to have a real version. Exactly. Yeah. And so, also with the Trinity.
You know, in Hinduism, they have the Trinity, but it's a fake Trinity.
So, also, you know, in the Bible, there is the fake trinity of. of Satan Of course the Antichrist? And of course, you know, the false prophet in the book of Revelation. I mean, that's your trinity. It's a great logically consistent illustration to look to that you can't have knockoffs without a true genuine original.
Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a good. Just a side note to mention that how do you know that the Trinity the idea of the Trinity is true? It's because you have a lot of fake trinities out there in different religion uh religions.
And so that's one one one thing to to to mention on the side. Yeah. But when it comes to The fact that God is Trinity. There are two important distinctions regarding the Trinity And the first is what's known as the economic trinity. has nothing to do with economics like managing money.
But here we're referring to the different ways the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit act. as they relate to each other and the world. That's the meaning of economic trinity. In creation. God the Father spoke the creative words.
God the Son did the work of creation. And God the Holy Spirit was the presence that was active in the whole process.
So God the Father spoke, God the Son did. And God the Holy Spirit supervised.
So you can still say, God created the heavens and the earth. But all three persons of the Trinity did something different than one another. Absolutely. That's economic Trinity.
Now, the same thing. can also be demonstrated in our redemption. God the Father planned the salvation. God the Son obeyed the Father and came to redeem us. And God the Holy Spirit was present.
He was present at baptism. And he was active during The whole The process of Jesus' ministry on earth. And then he came to take over in Acts chapter 1, verse 8. the Holy Spirit will come upon you with all power, and you will be my witnesses.
So Even in Redemption It's not the same thing. You know, the Father didn't die for you on the cross. But the Father is the one who came up with the plan of salvation. The plan of salvation was not so-called hatched in the Trinity. Right.
Like they all put their heads together and say, What can we do? They had like a think tank or something like that. No. Let's strategize. Like a brainstorm, a synergy like meeting.
Okay, let's just throw some ideas around, guys. What can we do? Did anybody promote synergy at all in the trend? No, no, no. Yeah, I remember years ago when I came to this town in 19 ninety eight and then as a pastor in ninety nine.
There was a gentleman in our church. And I used to go on visitation with him. And I remember one day, this is like 2003, 2002 or something. He said Abaddon. I'm thinking of the word synergy.
Okay. He said that. That is the word, and I read in the newspaper: see, the word synergy. I mean, that's what is needed: synergy. And I was like, to this day, I still don't think I really know what synergy is.
I think it's just like super organized efficiency or something. I guess I don't know what it is supposed to be. Like the energy you get from coming together. It's the energy you get from sinning. Oh, somebody out there who was like a mogul in the 90s and the early 2000s, please comment and let us up, like text in and let us know what sit what exactly was synergy?
Yeah, it has nothing to do with the Trinity. No, nothing to do with Trinity. It's interesting, though, when you talk about the economic trinity, the economic roles within the Trinity, that it seems to follow a similar pattern. In creation and redemption, God is the God the Father is the originator. Jesus, God the Son, is the doer, the active one.
And then God the Holy Spirit is sort of the supervisory. I'm kind of making sure all of this happens and superseding all of it. And he makes it happen. Yeah. He actually.
Puts it into action. Just like in a human family, the Father is in charge, the Son obeys the Father, so also God the Father is in charge in the Trinity. He is in charge in the Trinity. The Trinity is not like they sit equally. And go okay, so everybody gets a vote.
And sometimes The father wins out. And sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Holy Spirit kind of works with the Son or with the Father against the Son. It's not like that. Right. The father is in charge.
The son obeys the father.
So also, you know, the Holy Spirit is obedient to both. Yeah, and if you're listening to that and that sort of rubs you wrong, we talked about this yesterday, how some people really, really don't like the idea of Jesus being subservient to his Father and the Holy Spirit being subservient to both. But at the same time, this is not a hierarchy of value or of essence, right? This is not a hierarchy of. Who's really God, and who's like a lesser demigod?
In essence, they are equal. Roles, they are distinct. And these roles are not temporary. We also covered that last week or yesterday. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, 24.
Then comes the end. when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when he puts an end to all rule and all authority and power, For he must reign, talking about Jesus, the second person of the Godhead. He must reign till he has put all All enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For he has put quoting from the Old Testament, for he has put all things under his feet.
But when He says all things under are put under Him, it is evident that He who put all things under Him is accepted.
Now, when all things are made subject to him, then the Son himself will also be subject to him. who put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Now, there are people out there who don't like this idea of the eternal functional subordination of the Son, and they jump to that God may be all in all. Wait a minute. The line right before that is then the Son himself will also be subject to him, Who put all things under him? This is eternity. and Son will subject himself to the Father for all eternity.
There is a period in which he is the active agent, the front and centre agent, who is conquering and defeating evil, and all the agents of evil, but once he has put all of them under his feet, This battle has to happen, and that's what Revelation is about. Right. Once his battle is done, he turns the kingdom over to the father. And he himself subjects himself to the father. I think people see obedience as: I have to obey my superior.
And they get that I think they get hung up there. And and my question I guess is Like with a husband and wife. or with a boss and an employee. You've got someone who is in role distinct, right? A husband and wife may have a disagreement, but in a godly home, ultimately, the decider will decide.
In the Godhead, there's no disagreement. Right. So, what is the function of him, Jesus, obeying his father? Like, how does it function of. Hey, he's obedient, he's subservient, even though they can't disagree.
You know what I'm saying? Right. Like, why is it important if they can't disagree, they will always be in perfect agreement and unity. Why does it matter that one is subservient if they're in perfect unity?
Well, I mean, it's set the. The pattern for us. Right. I mean, God. Being father and God the son being the son.
is not modeled after us. We are modeled after him, after the triune God. The whole idea of father-son And mother and daughter and children and grandchildren. The whole idea is coming from the Trinity. We have it backwards.
So that's why the Muslims don't get it, or Muhammad did not understand. He's like, God the Father, God the Son, you got to have a mother.
Okay, Mary is the mother.
So that's the nature of God. She was with child of the Holy Spirit.
So you Christians have God. you know, having Sexual intercourse with a virgin and all that. It's like, no, you're misunderstanding that. She was a child of the Holy Spirit. She was a virgin the whole time.
But All that said, The whole idea of God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit gives us the model on how we organize our lives. And how we live. Kind of what we said up top: if there's an imperfect version, there's got to be a perfect version. Like, we're, we're as families, as family units, we are imperfect people. We have imperfect relationships, but it reflects a perfect reality.
Absolutely. Jesus' obedience to the Father is to teach us obedience to Him. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And also to bring some kind of a.
Kind of a pattern in our homes. Like children are to obey their parents, especially dad. That's that's also coming from this. Why is our world in such a mess? Is because Families are falling apart.
I think that's really that's a really interesting way to look at it that I've even myself have never thought about before where like If Jesus were to say, hey. Obey your parents. Obey your superiors. I don't have to because I'm the king. I'm God.
Sure, we would still do it, but that's not what he does. He says, Do as I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a side of God that.
I never think about that God is obedient. The family unit is If that family unit falls apart, culture, civilizations. will fall apart. God is is a family. The Trinity is that family except It's not a family as in multiple people, it's a family of multiple persons, but still one God.
gives us the pattern on how our families should be organized. That's what the enemy went against the family. He turned Adam and Eve against each other. he caused one son to kill the other. Can killed Abel.
I mean. Imagine. He went after that nucleus, that family. Why? Because he hates the family, which is.
The Trinity. Wow. That changes the way you read Genesis. Oh, yes. I think it also sheds light on yesterday's discussion because we talked about the roles of men and women yesterday a great deal.
And I think for someone who's just joining the conversation for the first time, maybe that came out of left field. But I think this really solidifies what we're talking about as far as our families go, being modeled on that. After the Trinity, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, Satan did not give up on that.
When Jesus came, lived a perfect sinless life and at thirty some years of age he begins his ministry. baptized by John. Why? Not because he was a sinner, but so that it would fulfil All the requirements and set the pattern for us, although our baptism has a different, deeper meaning. were baptized into Christ Jesus, not John's baptism.
Like the Ephesians. But then what happens to him? Immediately he is thrown into the wilderness. As the Gospel of Mark says, he is like shoved into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And how does the devil tempt him?
How does Satan tempt him?
Well, he tempts him by telling him to abandon the plan that father gave him. to bow before him, And he'll get all the kingdom. You want all you want all the kingdom, right? Isn't that what you're going to do in the end? You're going to deliver the kingdom to God the Father when he puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
And that's what you came. I'll give him to you. Just got to bow to me because they belong to me. Again, trying to splinter the family, the family, the family, and it didn't work. Yeah.
And then the other thing is, you know, turn these, and I'm kind of switching the order, turn these stones into bread. No. Jesus said it very clearly: man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word. That proceeds from God. How was creation made?
By the word of the Father. to go against that word and to make your own bread out of stones would be would be blasphemous.
So he said, no, I'm not going to listen to you. and then finally, you know, jump off. Jump all. Commit suicide. But hey, guess what?
your angels will swoop in and just pick you up. You won't Die and what a what a show. You'll put on a show for the people, and they will all fall before you.
Well, my my father didn't send me here to put on a show. He sent me here to die on the cross. Mm-hmm. Yeah, see how he tried to divide Daily, and I'm talking to listeners and our viewers right now. Daily, the enemy will come.
to get you to disobey God. to follow your heart. to follow your thoughts. I I I'll say this was everything I have and I hope. Hope you get it, whoever you are, wherever you are.
Your emotions, your thoughts are probably, unless they are submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. They are the worst things that can happen to you. You follow your heart, it will lead you right in the pit of hell. I'm not saying you lose your salvation. But it'll bring disaster upon disaster.
Yeah. You allow your thoughts to overrun you? Instead of praying and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. Those thoughts are are are Arrows of the enemy. Yeah, I think it's one of the biggest lies, one of the most harmful lies Disney ever taught us is to follow your heart.
Inside, you're a beautiful person. You're wise, you're virtuous. And we forget that the Bible says that inside you're wicked. Yeah. Yeah.
And he was telling Jesus to follow his heart. Follow your heart. Yeah. He said, No, absolutely not. And then later on, he tried again.
With with Peter. Hey look. You ought not to talk like this. And what did Jesus say to him? Get him behind me.
Be Satan. He called him Satan. Because Satan was going to use Peter. To try to get Jesus to not do what he came to do, which is to obey his father. Yeah.
You know, my food is to do the will of my Father. And Peter was, he was going to use Peter. He said, come on, Jesus being fully God. Would he listen to this mere mortal, Peter? The Fisherman Peter?
The open mouth insert foot Peter, he's not gonna listen. Also remember he was fully man. Yeah. He was fully man. tempted in all things as we are.
So what if Jesus would have listened to Peter and said, Peter, you're right. I'm gonna I'm gonna back down for for right now. Imagine what would happen. The entire Trinity would have Would have, I don't know, imploded, exploded. Yeah.
Yeah. An unraveling. Unraveled. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
I have that. You said earlier that there were two models, there were two distinctions of the Trinity. We talked about one, the economical one. What is the second one? The second is imminent Trinity, which is this.
Even without us, of the world, God the Father has is and will always be Okay. God the Father. God the Son has, is, will always be God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit has, is, will always be God the Holy Spirit. And there are several passages for that, which you can read on your own time, which is Ephesians 3:14, 15. Philippians 2, 5 through 11.
What we're saying is that God does not change. This is how it is going to be.
So these two, economical and imminent, they're not in conflict with each other. No, they're not in conflict. They're simply two very important things to remember. Gotcha. Got you.
To see that subordination in the Trinity. But also to see the permanency in their roles is very important. This is how they relate to one another and how they interact, how we see their interaction through creation, through redemption. And that interaction has always been and will always be. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. You know, initially we talked about the how do you how best can you understand the Trinity? And people have used all kinds of illustrations, you know. the Batman illustration or the water cube steam ice cube illustration or the the clover leaf, you know, the three three leaves in the clover.
Throughout history, people have tried other things as well. There is a psychological model. Which is probably the classical model goes all the way back to Augustine. The church father at Hippo, you know, the great theologian. he compared it to the unity and the diversity of the human self.
So you have the mind, the heart, and the will.
So you have reason. Emotion and action, but it's all me. It's all me. It's all me. I don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can see that. I can see how that gets closer than maybe some of the models that we were talking about. There is a little bit of a breakdown because my mind and my mind is not.
complete yeah it's a it doesn't it doesn't stand On its own. But but God the Son is fully God. Right. And my mind and my emotions are often at conflicts with one another. Yeah.
You know, I'm usually I'm usually battling it out between the two. But I mean, I guess I can say the two the three parts of myself. It's as it's as I mean, it'll it'll stand just like any other And will fall apart at various points. Jonathan Edwards compared it to the human psyche where you have the self. the self-image and the relationship between the two.
I don't like Jonathan's money. Jonathan Edwards, he was good in the awakening. But let me just say, Jonathan Edwards was a brilliant man. Oh, yeah. I shouldn't be making fun of him.
It's just me, man.
Sometimes you strike out. Yeah, he struck out there. The proponents of the social model consider this to be on the border of modalism. I was sort of thinking, yeah, I was sort of thinking. I was kind of leaning that way.
I was sort of thinking that too. Like, sometimes it's this, sometimes it's that. Yeah. So the social model. analogy for the Trinity.
And the key difference is the emphasis on the persons and not aspects. It's on the the the On who these persons of the Godhead are. Yeah, compared to the unity of the mind, heart, and will of three people. You know, I don't know. The proponents of the psychological model consider this to be on the border of tritheism.
Like three gods. Three gods. Yeah. So. The psychological versus the social They're not ready to shake hands.
Pros and cons of each, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. He said, which one do you go with? I think they both have some things worth.
you know Taking uh-huh. But still, they don't. Do you think this is just going to be a doctrine that we wrestle with? For eternity, I think so. Yeah, yeah.
Are you okay with that? I'm okay personally. Because. People think that in heaven they'll understand everything. I will gain all knowledge.
He is like, no. No. No. Imagine, I mean, you're going to be there for eternity. Imagine how not that heaven would ever be boring, but if you just gain all knowledge, you just kind of sit there and know everything.
Yeah. What if we know and learn and discover and grow and and Throughout all of eternity. Yeah, I don't think. You will immediately either become brilliant like Einstein or something. Or b you know, we may have a better understanding, said David, engineer here.
And I I think so. Yeah. I think I also believe, and maybe it's later on we can cover that. I also believe that how we live and grow in this life Sets us up for the life to come on how we will live.
So in this life you have zero desire for the things of God. But you are saved, but you're not like, oh man, I really. But you're like, oh yeah, I I I go to church and stuff, but you know, hey, I know I'm saved. Because I know Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
Okay, great.
Well, he coming to the Bible study? Oh, I'm good, I'm good. Then I don't think in heaven all of a sudden you'll be like, oh, I'm ready to learn some theology now. I don't think so. Yeah.
That's why in this life it's important. To seek after the things of God. Yeah, that's what Jesus said, right? He said, Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, like do it here on earth. Right.
And who was it that Paul talked about? You know, run the race now. Yeah. Absolutely. That's a good wake-up call for Christians because I think a lot of Christians think ultimately it doesn't really matter because on the other side, it's just a new slate.
Yeah. Wiped clean. I just got the get-out of hell-free card. And I get into heaven.
So. The rest of it's just a yeah, it'll make God happy if I live a good, productive, wholesome life here on earth. But ultimately, in heaven, that's when I get to start over. But it's not the case. What we do here impacts our eternity.
Absolutely, it does. It impacts. What rewards we get, it impacts how close we find ourselves to God. I mean, it would just be great to be in heaven. Let's just say that.
The alternative is not good. Yeah. To just be able to get to heaven. But I don't want to just get to heaven. I want to be so in tune with it.
So when I get there, it may seem like, man. Yep, this is what I was expecting, and it's so much, much, much, much more. And I have. Eternity now to explore this: the nature of God, the creation of God. The relationship with people.
All of this, it's not enough. That's right. I mean, anyways. But there's some things I want to quickly point out to keep in mind as we kind of wrap up this conversation, if that's okay. Yeah, yeah.
God's being. And this is Wayne Grudem in his systematic theology talks about this. God's being is not divided into three equal parts belonging to three members of the Trinity. Each one is not 33.333%. The personal distinctions in the Trinity are not something added on to God's real being.
Here's God in his essence now. Night. Pat on all this other stuff. The persons of the Trinity are not just three different ways of looking at the one being of God. That would be modalism.
And here's The fourth one that you need to keep in mind, says Wayne Grudem, there are three distinct persons and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God. They don't add up to God. No, no. It's not like one plus one plus one, three. No, there are three distinct persons, but the and the being of each person is equal to the whole being of God.
He said, Well, that doesn't make any sense. It is like nothing we have ever experienced. But it is real. Yes. I love this discussion because, in some ways, it's like that isn't making any sense.
And you're like, right, you're on the right track. It's good that you feel that way. Yeah, now you're ready to dive in.
Now you're ready to spend the rest of your life pursuing this truth and wrestling with this doctrine. Yeah. And we've said it on the episode. You said it, Dr. Shag, on a couple episodes back.
Ultimately, we are finite beings. God is infinite. We should not be able to understand everything that He is. We should not be able to wrap our minds around God and praise God that He is bigger than our understanding. That's right.
That's right. Guys, today's episode is so helpful in understanding how God relates to Himself, how we relate to God, and what that means for our understanding of the world around us. And if today's episode has been a blessing to you, head on over to anywhere podcasting content can be found. And go ahead and subscribe, follow the show. That way, you can keep up to date with all future content episodes being released, and you can share that content with your loved ones as well.
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