This episode of Clearview Today is brought to you by LaBlue Ultra Pure Water. What I love about LaBlue is they keep it simple. Hydrogen, oxygen, nothing else. They use a patented filtration process to remove any impurities and deliver ultra-pure water that you can trust. And best of all, they'll deliver it right to your office every month, right on time.
So order today online at LeBlue.com. That's L-E-B-L-E-U, and use promo code today, T-O-D-A-Y at checkout for 10% off. It's going to save you money, it's going to keep you hydrated, and support us here at the Clearview Today Show. Thanks for listening. Thanks to LeBlue for sponsoring today's episode.
Now let's jump in. The Trinity is three distinct persons and yet one Godhead. But still, we can't help but ask who's really in charge. Let's talk about why in today's episode of the Clear Vee Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr.
Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We're here with our host, Dr.
Abadan Shah. And we want to hear from you today, especially if it's your first time ever tuning into the show. You can text today, T-O-D-A-Y-252-429-6069. Any comments that you have, any questions for Dr. Shah, suggestions for future topics, we want to hear from you.
Dr. Shah, we're talking about the Trinity today. We began the conversation yesterday. This is a tough topic. Just some light.
Just some light chat over friends. Shoot the breeze, talk about a thousand-year-old doctrine. Yeah, this is the deep end. But it's important for us. It's important for us as we're understanding who God is, understanding the foundations of our belief, theological, the foundations of our.
Uh, faith theologically, and uh, and what we believe as Christians.
Well, yesterday we started talking about some of these heresies, some of these incorrect ways of thinking, and the conversation started getting good. It's always the point, like with radio, with podcasts, you can just go for hours, but with radio, you the conversation always starts getting good right when you got to stop, and then you got to land the plane. But we tend to think that people just think correctly about the Trinity, right? Because if I kind of understand it and I'm never going to really have it, I feel like other people, but other people are like, No, we really have no clue how this thing works, so we're going to start making some stuff up. It's an old problem.
And it's a problem that began in the early church. It's a problem that continued and had the councils for that very purpose. The early church fathers met, or the church fathers met for these councils: Council of Nicaea, Council of Constantinople, Ephesus.
So these were councils held to not really create the doctrine of the Trinity or. Or the person of Jesus being fully God, fully man, coming together in one. but they were really to clarify once and for all. To those who did not adhere to that biblical doctrine of the Trinity, that hey, this is here, we're drawing the line. in the sand, this is it.
So either you're in or you're out. It was not to create the doctrine, but to put it in written form so that for all generations it will be once and for all settled what makes a biblical Christian and what makes a heretic. And so. Unfortunately there were people who were not convinced. And unfortunately there are people even today It's not just about being convinced, but they have Latched on to the false view of this doctrine.
I think that's the biggest thing for me from our conversation yesterday: it's not just that people doubt the existence of the Trinity, but they're fully convinced in the wrong view. Like they believe wrongly, but they believe it firmly. Yeah. I mean, we talked about modalism last time. I mean, there are groups today, there are denominational today that are based on modalism.
We talked about the oneness Pentecostals that they believe this. And even among the larger Pentecostal body of believers, they are not accepted. The oneness Pentecostals are not accepted as part of that group.
So this is what modalism is: that God came in different modes.
Sometimes He comes as a father.
sometimes as the Son, sometimes as the Holy Spirit. That's not biblical Trinity. It's sort of like Batman. Like, you've got Batman and you've got Bruce Wayne, but you never see him at the same time. Right.
Kind of thing. That's a very good illustration of modalism. Yeah. Exactly. And that's not our God.
Yeah, no, not at all. That's not the Trinity. That's not the way things work. Because then I wonder when Jesus is on earth, where is the Father? If He's here as Jesus, there is no Father in heaven.
So who's Jesus praying to? Yeah, exactly. I mean, so they, it's not biblical. Right. Yeah.
It doesn't make sense. And I also emphasized in our previous episode that The Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, was not created in the New Testament. This is not something that Jesus introduced the people to, and they went, oh, wow, I don't know about this. They were angry with Jesus because he was claiming, he was claiming to be the Son of God. Or the Son of Man.
Son of Man does not mean that Jesus was fully man.
Son of Man is coming from Daniel, where it's also a reference to the deity of this person. Right? One like the Son of Man means he was. He was God.
So Even Old Testament believers. Even people in the intertestamental period, even people when Jesus actually came. They knew that there was plurality in the Godhead. And we looked at some of the examples of the royal we's, the self-reference. In the Old Testament, the Like the LORD said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand.
Now there are people who will claim That all those things are just simply examples of Iliism. Have you heard of that? Ilaism? I have not. No, Ilaism?
Ilaism. Never heard of it. Ilaism is like an. It's like And kind of a Greco-Roman rhetorical technique. where you refer to yourself in the third person.
Oh, okay. Kind of cute. I like that. Yeah. So I.
So, Abaddon will talk to you more about that. Oh, wait, never mind. I don't like it. Dr. Shah has something to say.
Are you ready for this? Yes, Ryan is listening. John is fully on board. It just sounds wrong. Yeah, it sounds very.
But then there's some people who say that that's what's happening when God is referring to Himself. Yeah, it's illegalism. It's got nothing to do with the plurality in the Godhead, has nothing to do with Trinity. And they're flat out wrong. Yeah, 'cause if it's a Greco-Roman device, why is it showing up in Hebrew?
Yes. It's like here's the thing. All these people, I'm sure a lot of these people who have it, who say this kind of stuff, are scholars. I should not be like a high school diploma, like college undergrad, being able to instantly say. Like, put that out there right off the top of my head.
I should not be able to poke a hole in it that quickly. Caesar did that. Caesar, you know, Julius Caesar. he would refer to himself in the third person. he was, you know, being an Iliist.
It it's it's a it's a rhetorical technique.
So he would say Caesar then saw this. And then Caesar spoke.
Okay, well, Julius Caesar had some ego issues. I don't know what his problem was. But to say that God is doing that, so this has nothing to do with. plur plurality in the Godhead. No.
No, when you find those we's in the Old Testament, when you find The angel of the Lord examples in judges. And even in the in the first five books of Moses, that's. an indication that more is happening. People knew that. The Hebrews knew that.
The people of Israel knew that. The Jewish people knew that. I mean, I'm going by the different designation that God's people have been known throughout history based on the exiles and all of that. They knew that. Paul knew that.
The Pharisees, most of them knew that. They just had a problem that this man from Galilee, who has a questionable birth, Is the one? You're blaspheming. You claim me to be the son of God, it was not that. That the idea that God has a son is evil and horrible.
Is the fact that you are claiming to be the Son of God. That's an important distinction. Yeah. It's not that we don't believe this, we don't believe you. It ain't gonna be this.
It just ain't gonna be you. It ain't gonna be you. Because you should be coming through us. Right. You know, when the Magis came to to Jerusalem, All Jerusalem was troubled, and then they said, Where is he who's to be born, the king of the Jews?
Well, in Bethlehem. But so have the prophets said. It was not a shock to them that the Messiah was coming. What does Messiah mean? I think sometimes these titles that have been transliterated into English.
have have not helped us much. Messiah means You know, Christ, God's anointed king. Who could be God's anointed king? Is someone who will live forever. Who can live forever?
Other than God. But God's son, he is God's anointed king.
So we see this, we see this. I don't want to call it a movement, but we see this fringe group. Coming off of these councils, and they are. Having these incorrect doctrines of the Trinity, and we're hoping that throughout history it'll just kind of fade away, and yet that doesn't happen. These splinter groups that have that did they exist before the council?
Oh, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. They existed before the council. you know, you're talking about the protonic groups. They were there right in the first century. But when the but when these councils codified the true biblical meaning and definition of what the Trinity is, they can't stomach it.
They go off and do their own thing. And somehow it ends up lasting even till today. Yeah, it's not like there is a line that you can draw, you know, like back in the. In the ear in the 18th, I'm sorry, the 19th century, they used to have the sacred thread of redemption, you know, like drawing the line straight from. John the Baptist to Jesus, all the way to us.
You know, there is no straight line or jagged line that comes to us that we are the true believers. There is no straight or jagged line that these are the heretics who connected to each other. And here we have heretics today. I don't think there's a line you can draw, but there have been groups here and there throughout history who believed things that did not line up with biblical doctrine. We talked about one of them yesterday: the Arianism, the whole like Jesus was created.
Yeah. Does that come from the whole God's begotten Son thing? Yeah, yeah. It all is connected to that. I gotcha.
Yeah. God the Father created God the Son at some point. God the Son is like the Father or similar in nature to the Father, but he does not have the same nature as the Father. Like God. But not same.
Similar? but not same. That's what Arianism is about. And there have been people who said Aryan. Did not believe that himself and things like that.
So, there are some arguments still going on and have been for quite some time. But if you just take strict Arianism as defined by, say, Harold O.J. Brown. You know, he wrote the books on heresies. By the way, he came to my paper one time.
Really? Oh, yes. Like recently? No, back in the day. This is back in, I want to say in 2005.
Okay. Wow. Yeah, that's what, how many years? Like 21 years? Were you starstruck?
When you saw him? Oh, yeah, I realized who he was, and I was like, oh my goodness. Were you nervous? Very. This is the man who is the authority.
On Heresies in the early church. And I was like And then somebody said, You know that's Harold O. J. Brown. I was like, oh no.
Oh, did he talk good about you, Paycraft? He asked me a question. Nice. I don't know what I said. I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And he said, well, that's true. And what he was asking was. Was, if I can remember correctly, he asked me a question about. Who was one of the first ones to mention variants in the text or something like that? I think he already knew the answer, but he was asking me that question.
And then I think you know, he kind of took it from there and talked a few minutes. Wow. I mean, it was a great honor. I was taking a picture of him. I know.
That's pretty cool to know that he was at your paper and interacted with you at your paper. He's still alive today? No. Passed on. He passed on.
Just a few years after. I got you. Wow. Long ago. I have his books.
Wow. So. And of course, Jehovah's Witnesses are part of this Arianism heresy. But then there's also another one. And this was again there in that pre- or anti-Nicene era.
Anti-Nicene means prior to 325 AD. And is known as subordinationism. Subordinationism says even though God the Son is not created. he is still not equal with the Father. Not as unless subordinate.
Yeah. He's subordinate to the Father.
So even though God the Son is not created, he is still not equal with the Father.
So they would say that God the Son is not fully God. Right. Okay. Yeah. We believe that the Son is subordinate to the Father.
but not in essence. Means he submits to the Father. He chooses to. He chooses to, yeah. Yeah.
And the Holy Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son. But subordinationism would say that he has no choice but to submit to the Father. Because he's lesser. He's lesser God. Yes.
Some sort of demigod or something? Yeah, in a sense. Yeah. Wow. Okay.
Yeah. So it was dealt with at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, and the key person who dealt with this was Athanasius.
So I think that makes a good point because we would say that Jesus is subordinate to the Father. He himself says it: you know, I do what the Father does, but it's not because of who he is, it's because he chooses to do it. That's right. Why is that a key point for people, especially Christians today, to understand? We hold to the eternal Father.
functional subordination of the sun. Not essence, but function. And there's a difference there. There are people.
Some people I admire who don't believe in that doctrine. And they think, oh, this is just created by conservatives and all that. And I don't think so. I think it's very biblical. Eternal means that the sun will always be Subjected to the Father.
Okay, it says that I think in Revelation, then the Son will also hand over the kingdom, and I'm paraphrasing here so that God will be all in all. Means the Father would be fully in charge. Means the Son will turn over all the kingdoms and authority and power over to the Father.
So This is forever, eternal. functional. not in essence, not in nature. function means in his role, not in his being. The Son is not less than the Father in being, but He is in role.
means father is the initiator.
Son is the one who does the work. Holy Spirit is the active agent, this person who goes between the Father, Son, and us, and He applies it. He does the work.
So th he he actually I guess you can use the word effectuates. the work. The person who actually makes it happen. The son does it, but here's a person who actually comes and makes the whole thing. Applicable is the Holy Spirit.
I wonder why, and I may be thinking about this way too surface. Maybe this is too plain Jane to be thinking about it, but I wonder why we have trouble with this. Because when we apply it to humanity, there's no problem at all. Because you've got a worker and you've got a boss. The boss may, you may be subordinate to your boss, but the boss isn't like another level of human.
He doesn't have like more value as a human than you do. Same with your kids. My kids are subordinate to me, but I'm not like. Tier 2 humanity. Yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, the reason this has even become a battleground is because. of the male female roles, especially in the context of the Church.
So, in the context of the church, we believe that God has called men to be the leaders. to be the senior pastors, okay, to be the pastor of the church. Can women serve on a church staff? Yes, they can, but not as pastors.
Now you say, well, does that mean they're less? No, because the roles are different. What does it matter? I mean, I read commentaries by uh female scholars who are phenomenal, amazing. But they're not functioning as a pastor in that role.
They're functioning as scholars. In that role, and I have zero problem with studying them, using their works, and even giving credit to them and honoring them for their devotion. That's great, and their scholarship. Great. But in the context of The church And in the context of the family, God has called the men to lead.
But why is that?
Well, this is not a leadership in the sense of authority and domination. and I am better than you and I am superior to you. None of that. This is in function as a leader. The men are called to step up and be out front.
They are to fight evil, they are to stand up for truth and righteousness. They are to protect. They are to be the first in line. You shouldn't have to drag your husband to church. You shouldn't have to guilt them into coming to church.
No, they should be the ones saying, everybody ready? Let's go to church. It's Sunday morning. There is no argument here. We go to church.
Wednesday night, and I know there are people who travel and businesses and all that. It's hard to do for some people. But if you can, Wednesdays, hey, we we have Bible studies. If there are ministries going on at the church, men should not be like, ah, I'll let the women handle that. No, you should be the one there.
Right. And you may not. Work in nursery, or maybe you will. I don't know.
So, we have couples who serve in the nursery ministry.
So, it's nothing. below for a man to to do that and help out. But God has called the men to lead in the church and in the home. But this leadership. Is servant leadership that we lead by serving.
We lead by accepting the responsibility that we will stand before God. and giving an account for our family. This is not a leadership like, hey, I'm going to prop my feet up and go get me some some drink. You know, go clean the house and go Go and take care of the kids. That's that's that's why.
People have a problem with men leading, whether it's in the church context or the home context. Yeah. You said, why is this such a big deal? Women are spiritually geared. I mean, just go back to the Garden of Eden.
Satan did not go to the man and said, Don't you want to be like God, knowing good and evil? Don't you want to eat this fruit? Mm-hmm. Because man would have said, I'm good. I'm good.
Yeah. No. I'm going to go hang out with some monkeys and have a good time. I'm going to say I'm good. I'm going to jump in the lake and Yeah, just just have a good time.
You don't need all this. Yeah. Now he went to the The woman to Eve and said. said has God indeed said And what does she do? Yes, she wanted to be like God.
We would call that today. She wanted to be spiritual. And she ate the fruit and then gave it to her husband, who should have categorically denied and resisted and protected his wife, but he was there with her and he just said. I mean If you want to, oh fine, I'll eat it. And he failed to not only protect her, but he failed to be the leader in that relationship.
Okay. Since women are more spiritually minded God brought a balance. In the marriage relationship and the church relationship, by saying, They are more spiritually minded, but You men are going to lead to show that need, that dependence upon one another. Imagine if the woman was spiritually minded and also the leader. What's the use of the man?
Yeah, you don't need him. You don't need him. And they're fine with that. Yeah. We'll just sit back here.
Y'all have fun? Y'all go to church and stuff. Yep.
Okay. Yeah. I've seen that all too often all over the world. What ends up happening in those churches or just in that relationship?
Well, when you don't have men coming. To church and leading their children, their families, of course, it's going to be lopsided. It's going to be problematic. And those churches will struggle. I'm not saying all women think the same way.
There were some women who are phenomenal in the leadership and all of that.
So, I'm not saying that all women are just, you know. Just submissive and docile and just you know, hesitant. No, that's not true at all. But if if it's the church and only ladies are leading, By default, then that church is going to be very inward focused. Men Are outward focused.
I mean, they want to conquer, they want to create, they want to build, they want to reach more. I mean, this is how God has. design men to be. women are more nurturing and caring and cherishing and and compassionate. Does that mean that men are not compassionate and nourishing and cherishing?
No, they can be. But but as a whole by nature, yeah, that that's that's the way. also when it comes to doctrine and and and truth. Women will be more accommodating, generally speaking. Men We'll just say, no, this is it, and that's that.
Now if If it's a church that has only men, what's going to happen? I mean, we will Tear to pieces, like you don't belong here. Yeah, yeah, you should be kicking everybody out. You get out, yeah. No, you first.
No, so you need some forgiveness and compassion and care so we work together. Do you ever see that movie with Robert Duvall where he's a preacher and Billy Bob Thornton comes in and he's like drunk and he takes him out back and whoops his body? Yeah, I remember saying that. Then he becomes his church member. Yeah, he does.
And all the people are watching. Woo! Not just imagining that, but every single Sunday. Yeah, everybody's going to get a big fight. Like a hot fight.
Yeah. Yeah. That's the church service. Yeah. No, you cannot have that.
So, yes, men are to lead, stand for truth. Fight against evil. Be courageous. Women are to bring that aspect of compassion and love and cherish. in one another.
And together they move forward. When you walk away from the eternal functional subordination of the Sun. What these scholars who don't believe in men leading by servant leadership. What they say is that This abordination of the son to the father was temporary. It was not something It is not going to be in heaven.
It was temporary and it was an aberration. You know what the word aberration means? It was. unnatural.
So temporary unnatural Hints should not be followed in the church or in the home. My question goes to: Can there be temporary attributes to God? I don't know.
Yeah. I mean, like, can. When can't we? He can't change. Yeah.
Where do they get that? Where does that come from?
Well, I mean, they use that same passage about that, you know, and then the son will also turn everything over to the father so that God will be all in all. They take passages like that and they say, You see, there you go. In eternity. Father, Son, Spirit, they will be equal. No.
no distinction in role. They won't have a problem with the essence part, but the roles, how we say the roles are distinct and they will be distinct. They don't like that they will be. They say They will, you know, temporarily, there may be a sense of hierarchy and roles. But Eventually, eternally, there won't be that hierarchy and role.
So, why are we trying to create? Quote unquote hierarchy in the church with men leading, or hierarchy in the home with men leading, when in eternity that will not be the case.
So, do you think it's the doctrine is a means to an end here rather than the other way around? Like, I really genuinely believe that's how it's going to be in heaven. Therefore, we shouldn't structure the church and home like that. Or do you think it's, I really don't want to do this, so I'm going to make the doctrine match what I want? Exactly, that.
Yeah. Yeah. Because when it says, you know, the the passage we read from Corinthians about, you know, the head of Christ is God or the head of man is is Christ and the head of the woman is man. They say, Oh, yeah, that's that's a temporary thing. It's not going to be permanent.
So why are we trying to implement A temporary thing in this world. Let's just go for the eternal. Let's just go for the permanent. Permanent is everybody equal.
So let's apply that right now in the church and in the home. Make everybody equal. Mm-hmm. Doesn't it also say all scripture is God-breathed and the word of God is living and active? And that the word of God applies across.
Yeah, time space. Pre-fall. Adam's role as protector and leader was still present pre-fall. Paul says that, you know, the. the woman was not the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man.
Right. It does not mean that, oh, well, the woman is just made from us men. All right, guys. Right. You know, no, it was to say you lead.
She has been brought to you.
So you can lead. and she has more spiritual acumen and insight But you still lead. And she may at times even instruct you and say, Hey, look, this is what I like my wife, Nicole, will often bring me things and say, Listen to what what I just read, or listen to what this guy, he's saying this. What do you think? This I think this is very good.
And I listened to that. I was like, oh, that's pretty good. Or that'll be like, yeah, something I write about that. How often do I go to her and say, Check this out? This is so pretty cool and deep.
Not often, hardly any.
So They are geared more spiritually minded. But men are called to lead. And that beautiful kind of complement of each other reflects God. Absolutely. Reflects who God is and the way that our roles between man and woman, husband and wife play out, points people back to the nature of God.
And the roles between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Amen. That's beautiful. See, it matters why we talk about these things.
It matters why we have conversations about who God is and the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity. It's not just let's sit around and pontificate about, you know, the Trinity. No, it affects your day-to-day life. It affects your marriage. It affects your household.
It affects your relationships with other church members. It affects every area of your life. And we want you to stay tuned as we continue this conversation about the foundations of what we believe. That's right. Our whole goal here is to give you a clear view of the Bible, of scripture, of how God is working in your life and in your ministry.
And I hope today's done that. I hope all the episodes that we're going to be doing in the future have done that. We want to hear from you as well how God is working through this show in your life. 252-429-6069 is that number. Make sure that you're following along on any podcasting platform.
You can subscribe to the show so you get updates on all future content. You can also share those episodes with your friends and family members because this. The goal is that this wouldn't just be to your device or to your radio, that it would go across the X-rays. And you can help us do that by visiting Abadanshah.com forward slash give or by clicking the description box of this video where it says support the show. That's right.
Big thank you to all of our sponsors, Mighty Muscadine, LaBlue, Ultra Pure Water, Watch Safe. These are all organizations who have partnered with us. We want to partner with you as well. If you're interested in sponsoring the show, you can, uh, you or advertising for your business or for your organization, your ministry, email us info at clearviewbc.org, or you can always text that number: 252-429-6069. That's right.
We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow on ClearBead Today.
