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Now let's jump in. Our God is a triune God, three persons and yet one Godhead. Nothing complicated about that at all. Right? Let's figure it out together today on the Cleavery Today Show.
You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio.
We got a great conversation today with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr. Shah, it's going to be a good day. It's going to be a good day.
We're going to take on a very, very difficult topic that the church has argued over for those couple hundred years, trying to get the right verbiage. But we're going to resolve all that. We'll solve it in 30 minutes or less. Second style. Yeah, or your money back guaranteed.
Three persons, one Godhead. Dr. Shah, seriously, why is this so difficult? Why has this been a sticking point for all these centuries? Because every analogy breaks down.
That's a good point. Ice, water, steam. No, it doesn't work. You know what it is. Modalism, Patrick.
It is modalism. Oh, some of some form of that. Yeah. It's like sometimes, it's like sometimes, you know, right now I'm a father to my son, but I'm also a son to my father.
So I've got like different relationships. And that's kind of how it got. No, that's that's that's a heresy. Congratulations. You're a heretic.
It's kind of like where Anakin is a little boy, right? He's a little boy in the Phantom Menace, but then he's, you know, a Jedi Knight in what was the second one, Attack of the Clones. And then ultimately, he's Darth Vader, but he's still one person. You know what I'm saying? But he's three.
No, that's a heresy. No. Modalism again, Patrick. Heresy. You're a heretic.
We slip so quickly in the heresy. We're trying to find an analogy that worked for the Trinity, but there really is nothing like it to liken it to here on Earth. And it is kind of frustrating, especially for someone like me, because analogies and illustrations are single-handedly, without a doubt, that is the easiest way that I learned. And I feel like it's just not possible. Possible to have a clean-cut analogy to explain the trend.
Is there one that you have heard, Dr. Shaw, that comes the closest? Uh the one that I can I have used it again and again, and it does communicate, but it really doesn't convince us. It is one times one times one. We don't worship one time one plus one plus one, which would be three.
Then that would make it three gods. One times one times one is one is one.
So we worship one god in three persons. And I can see when I do use that illustration, people are like, oh, okay. But they're like, ah, it's not what we were thinking. It's like it's clever, but it's not satisfying to them. It's not satisfying.
I sort of understand it because it is one. Times one times one, they're all the same thing, but there's three of them. Yeah, I so I do sort of get it. I could be satisfied with that answer on the surface. I think the biggest thing is, is it's not a visual, it's not something tangible.
Math, even even math is something that exists in our heads. Like the equation one times one times one, we can represent it with things, but math is something that exists in our heads.
So we want something that we can put our hands on and say, This, like this, this is the truth. Like the ice thing, like we want something in the natural world that we can play, or a like a three-leaf clover, like there's three different leaves, but it's all part of the same clover. But even that, like, if you separate them out, they're not, they're parts of a whole, not holes within themselves. And maybe you can, maybe you can shed some light on this, Dr. Shad.
This is just my thinking, but I think that biblically looking at it. The majority, if not all, Christians, I would say the majority of Christians agree that the Trinity is there. There's biblical evidence for it. I just want to understand it. Yeah, well, let's look at the biblical evidence, starting with the Old Testament.
The Bible does give us plenty of hints. About the plurality in the Godhead. It may not mention Trinity. Distinctly, but the plurality is there.
So let's look at some of the references here. Starting with Genesis 1:26, then God said, Let us make man in our image. It is plural. Pretty cut and dry. Yeah, but some people have said, oh, no, that's just the royal we.
Like kings say, you know, we will think on this matter. We shall consider this. Let us retire to the blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah. But then I wonder why ancient Hebrew writers like Moses would have used like 1800s British nomenclature.
I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me. Great points. It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, if you read it in Hebrew, like it is plural, right? Yes.
But it's plural. If that's the case, then yeah, we need to not You know, chalk it up to some royal weed. Yeah, then there's also Genesis 3:22. Then the Lord God said, Behold, a man has become like one of us. To know good and evil.
What else am I supposed to say? It also doesn't just say become like us, it says become like one of us. Oh, I mean, there's some plurality there. Yeah, if it's one of us, I mean, it could be two, but there's definitely more than one. Yeah.
Yeah, and then there is Genesis 11:7. Come, let us go down and there confuse the language. That they may not understand one another's speech, talking about the Tower of Babel, but let us go down. Yeah, he's there's a conversation going on absolutely apart from humanity, right? That's right, yeah.
So, I mean, when you look at all these things, yes, and there's Isaiah 6:8. Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send? And who will go for us? But there's always that one Yahoo who's listening who says, Dr. Shabba, you know, those are all Old Testament references, though.
Yeah. I don't know why people love to do this, but that's different. But that last one in Isaiah is interesting because it says, Whom shall I send and who will go for us?
So you got I, singular, but then you go into us, which is plural. It's different, it changes in the middle of the sentence. Yeah, exactly.
So. There is something there that we need to consider. In the New Testament, of course, you see, you know, it's. more distinct Matthew 3 16 When Jesus had been baptized, he came up immediately from the water. And behold, the heavens were opened to him.
and he saw the Spirit of God. descending like a dove and alighting upon him, And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. I mean, that's pretty yeah, that's pretty evident of the Trinity.
Now, you can always question whether or not. You know, Jesus was fully God or the Spirit. Is it just a, you know, there are a lot of ways people try to argue against the Trinity there. But for those of us who do not have A problem with the deity of Christ. we can say there's a father speaking There's a son down there, and there's a Holy Spirit coming upon him.
I know we love this imagery too, but you've pointed out that this doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is a dove or was a dove in form. It descended like a dove.
So, like, there's some descension happening like a bird on the wing, but that does not mean that it took on the form of a dove fluttering down on the floor. Like, if I was there, I would not have seen a white dove come down and land on Jesus' shoulder. You look up Google, you ask AI, it's going to crank out pictures of the Holy Spirit as a dove. Yeah, I think if you Google Holy Spirit, I haven't actually tried this, but I bet you if you Google Holy Spirit, at least in the top 10, there's going to be at least one picture of Holy Spirit. 100%.
So, Dr. Sha, I was going to ask you this. Talking about people who would deny the Trinity using New Testament, because New Testament, it seems like gets even more specific. Whereas in the Old Testament, there's just us, there's plurality in God's speech. In the New Testament, it seems like he's specifically saying, baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
He lists. Explicitly, the members of the Trinity. Absolutely. Why, why do why is there still? Non-clarity here?
Why are we still not clear that this is evidence for a Trinity in the Godhead? Because I think people were struggling with the Old Testament declarations. Deuteronomy chapter 6: Behold, the Lord, thy God, the Lord is one. And so they were like, how do we reconcile this? I think all of this is based on a misunderstanding that sort of crept in.
With the Gentile church. Where they were having a tough time with it. And also in that in that first generation When Jewish people realize that a big part of their The their their family They're you know, they're brothers and sisters, neighbors. We're becoming believers. And so they really began to emphasize The oneness of God.
Because prior to that, I don't believe it was that strict. They did worship one God. But they knew there was more because they, you know, the first chapter of the book of Genesis begins with that. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. and the earth was without form and void.
and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the spirit Of the Lord, of God, was hovering over the face of the waters.
So already you see something What is the Spirit, and how can He come down and do that when God is up there? What is happening here?
So, already you can see that there is more. Plurality is there. May not be Trinity, but plurality is there. I have another Old Testament question. There's a lot of references.
We've talked about this on the show before, of the angel of the Lord. And you've told us that that is the pre-incarnate Jesus. Before he was born, this was Jesus in bodily form, but before he was born to Mary. In those appearances, does the angel of the Lord refer to God? Doesn't the angel of the Lord in several different times refer to like God is going to do this and the Lord is doing this?
Yes. So there is still some, like, I'm interacting with a physical. Being, but also I'm pointing that physical being is pointing to someone who is other.
Well, I mean, Jesus did that though, right? Like, I mean, Jesus. He said, like, yeah, I'm the way, the truth, the life, but he always pointed back to the Father. He always, there was always a unity, but also a separation, as in the Father and I are different. Yeah, well, he says, I and the Father are one, but he talks about the Father separate from himself.
Yeah, exactly.
And he does talk about the Holy Spirit proceeding. You know, the from the Father and the Son coming to us.
So, yeah, I mean. It is there, s very distinct in the in the New Testament. But I don't believe that it was absent in the Old Testament, definitely. I don't believe that. And I don't think a lot of people who are Bible believing Christians would would ever say that.
But I also do not believe That Old Testament people were completely clueless about the Trinity. I don't believe that the Jewish people in the time of Jesus were like completely shocked when Jesus began to talk about the Trinity or Paul talks about the Trinity, even though the word is not used, they were not shocked. I believe they knew that. They knew about the plurality of the Godhead. But those ideas had not been developed as much, but they were there.
They were aware, just like the angel of the Lord. or the lettuce passages, but they they knew. Don't ever forget that the first believers Came from Jewish background. Right. And for them to follow Jesus Christ, knowing.
That Jesus was a second person of the Godhead, that He was fully God, became fully man, but there is also the Father, and there is also the Holy Spirit, three and yet one. That would be anathema for them, blasphemous for them to say, okay, we're going to leave this whole idea of one God and follow this. One God, as in this self-contained being who doesn't have any differentiation, any personhood in him. It says just one, that's it, done. Can you imagine?
What a huge obstacle for them to overcome. Not only do we have to overcome the fact that this man is going to die for our sins, but this man is God. But wait, wait. There are not one any more, there are three. How much do they have to overcome?
How much would Paul have had to overcome? Yeah. You see, that was not an issue that they fought over. Yeah. It doesn't really say that Paul, like.
Struggled with that, right? It doesn't say that he struggled to make these guys understand. It was more that they just didn't receive it. Because it would have made sense to a Jewish audience. They've known this, even if it was not entirely fleshed out, but they have this concept, which is why when Jesus arrives, he's the one they've been waiting for.
Yeah. But at the same time, does that mean every single Jewish person on the face of the earth or every single Israelite always understood? No. People sitting in the church on a Sunday morning don't spend room eight. Right.
We're sitting here trying to understand it. Yeah. And I think it's that thing that we fall into because I got podcasts, I got chat GPT on my phone, I've got all this information at my fingertips that I'm smarter than the early church. These early Jewish believers just didn't get it. No, they understood exactly what Paul was telling them.
And there are people in the past, in the Old Testament, who did understand. Yeah. And they got it. It's just that once. Christianity really took hold.
And there was this di division between those who were going to follow the Messiah because he is the one, and those who said, No, we're not leaving. Then the the ones who were not leaving, listen carefully, the ones who were not leaving really began to bear down, bear down on the idea that there is no No such thing as plurality in the Godhead. That's when the bearing down happened. Not prior to that.
So for us who are listening now. Maybe we've heard the Trinity our entire lives and still don't really understand it. Maybe we're a brand new Christian and we're listening today and we're saying, Dr. Shah, tell us what is the best way that you have. to explain the Trinity to us.
So God has one substance. It was called the Usia. We're talking about the Nicene Creeds and those battles that took place, the conflicts that took place in the first. You know, in the first 300 years of the church, and those councils, Council of Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus. All of that.
God has one substance, known as usia, in three persons. We call that the hypostatis personae, One substance, three persons. That's Trinity.
So for us, like we are three persons with three substances. We are three different people. You, us. Us three. Us three on the couch.
No, us three, us three sitting here on this couch. Four to you, dude. We are three persons, and each of us has our own different substance. But with God, there is one substance in three persons. Yeah.
So God is three persons. Each person is fully God. There is one God. Each person is fully God. God the Father is not God the Son.
God the Son is not God the Spirit. All of them are God. There is one God. Yes. And that's it.
Hey, that's crazy. I'm sorry. You're not God.
Well, yeah. Also, it should be that God is different from us. Like, let's not forget who we're talking about here. This isn't like we're talking about each other or we're talking about somebody down the street that we have the capacity to understand. God is beyond our capacity to understand.
We should understand things about God. That's right. And we should increase our understanding of who God is, but he is beyond us. Let's remember that. Even then, I was trying to think of how someone would make sense of it.
Like, God, okay, so God is a title, right? And so there's these three distinct persons and they all have the title of God. Just like at my office, I've got three bosses. But no, you have three bosses. You don't have one.
You don't have one boss and three persons. No, no, no, but they're all on the same level. They're all equal. Yeah, they're still three distinct people. Like, Larry is not the same as Joe, and Joe is not the same as Billy.
Yeah. They're three different people. Just understand this point. You will not be able to comprehend that now in eternity. Forever, it will not compute, but you will come to accept it.
And I hope you already do. Right. I have. Yeah. I hope but so the big question comes up in heaven, what are we going to see?
Yeah, true. I mean, I see three persons up there or just see one God.
Well, you know, we'll figure out how we get there. I was going to say, I genuinely don't. I'll figure out how we get there. I genuinely don't know, but I'm excited to find out. Yep.
I want to. Under I want us to understand this. you do not have the option to to to believe in a wrong god. That That's something you have to clarify. Right.
Yeah, it may hurt your brain to go down this rabbit hole, but you better get it. You better get it right. Yeah. You better get the terms correct. That's right.
You have to believe And understand. in the best possible way, what we believe as Bible-believing Christians. Because we talked about this in earlier seasons of the show, but you know, doctrine matters. Do you want to tell us why? Because we think, you know, whether I think this about the Trinity or not, I still believe in God.
I'm still saved. Why does doctrine matter? Oh, it does matter. Because, again, if we don't get Trinity right. Then down the road, there are a lot of false beliefs and false doctrines coming.
That's right. And unfortunately, in you know, we look at the religion called Islam. You know, Islam, what does Islam believe? Islam Again, the enemy is behind it. But he used the misunderstandings of people regarding the Trinity.
to create a religion. You know, in Islam, they talk about the Trinity. But they talk about it as father. Jesus and Mary. And so people will say that silly in the Quran.
That's what it is: Father, Jesus, and Mary. And that's the Holy Trinity. That's the Holy Trinity. And so people will say silly things like that.
Well, you know that Islam is an Abrahamic religion. You all worship the same God. You're just quabbling over different things. Absolutely. We don't.
Yeah. Absolutely not. Yes, it kind of. Takes from the Old Testament and takes from the New Testament, but it also took from The conversations that were happening, albeit completely distorted conversation. And now there's a massive religion and has been for the past 1,500 years.
I think it's important that you say that takes from because it is derivative. You can't read the Quran without referencing the Bible. Absolutely not. Especially not the Old Testament, but also not the New Testament. The Bible stands alone.
Yeah, we don't need the Quran to interpret the Bible, but there are parts of the Quran that will reference things in the Bible that you can't just open it as a standalone book. Lots and lots of parts of the Bible, of the Quran, that will make absolutely no sense if you said, okay. You can have your Quran, but no longer refer to the Bible. It doesn't, because they mention Abraham. They mention Job, they mention David.
I mean, what are they going to do with that? Right. And so, not having an understanding of the biblical trinity, right? The triune God, as he actually exists, it's easier to get swept up in silly statements like that. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Like, y'all all worship the same God. You didn't know that. And then also, you fail to understand what that means: that God gave his son to die on the cross for you. What does that mean?
Now, I'm not expecting every newborn believer Especially somebody who's like five years old. But man, I'm giving my heart to Jesus to explain to me the usia and the hypostasis person. I mean, they're not going to get that. Yeah. But I'm hoping that when they're ready, it will be a joy for them to receive that truth.
Right. But I'm praying that. all of us, as believers, will seek to know more. About this. Yeah.
You should seek to understand. God gave His Son. Exactly. And it is fun because, I mean, my son is five years old right now and he's, you know, he's accepted the Lord a couple years back. And sometimes we'll talk and he says that Jesus is God's son.
And sometimes, just to, not even to mess with him, but just to keep the conversation going, I'll say, but you know, Jesus is God. He's like, Jesus is God's son. God is God, and Jesus is God's son. I'm like, yeah, that's true, but Jesus is also God. Huh?
Huh? And sometimes you get people praying, you get people talking about our Heavenly Father Jesus Christ. I'm like, Yeah, I know.
Well, Jesus is also at times called the everlasting Father, but not in the Trinity, He is the Son.
So, how do you balance this? On one hand, Deuteronomy six four, Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, Ekad. You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. You know that word Ekad, one. Was not like this, this one that cannot be.
Uh i i it's like just like self-contained one. No. It's it's like uh if I were to pick up a bunch of sticks and hold them in my hand. Mm-hmm. That's the idea behind it.
It's one. It's one bundle. It's one. It's one bundle. Yeah.
So it's not, it allows for multiplicity in that oneness. I love that. That's a great image. Yeah, and then Jesus, of course, John 14, 26. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
I mean, wow. The Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, in His name, in Jesus' name.
Well so Yes, the Trinity was was Was not a foreign concept. If people have been grappling with this for years and they've been trying to articulate this and trying to figure out the best way to paint this picture, I would imagine that many people have done it wrongly. Oh, yes. Do you want to walk through a couple of those kind of more popular heresies to maybe the people who are listening at home have maybe had some beliefs that need to be course corrected a little bit? And by the way, if you are course correct, it does not mean you are lost and now going to hell and need to get saved.
No, it's just this is what the show is about. That's right. Exactly. Clear view today.
So you can have a clear view to the Trinity coming from the gospel, okay, from the Word of God. And hopefully through all the debates and the scholarly You know, conflicts and councils that went through our church history and even down to this day, maybe it will help you course correctly. Yeah, you're riding your bike a little bit and your handlebars get a little bit tilted.
So it's our job just to kind of tilt them right back on the that being said. If you listen to this episode, Don't Change Your View on the Trinity, you are a heretic. Oh, you won't change your view, you're going over the handlebars. You're going to crash. You're going in the dip.
Right, right, right.
So here's. Error number one is called modalism. Of course, Patrick. Modalism. It's so funny because in my mind, everybody who's a Christian has seen that video, but 99% of the listeners are like, What is that?
I can't hear this word without thinking in terms of an Irish. I'm going to link it. We're going to link it in the description for you to go watch. Go watch it. It's pretty simple.
Modalism, Patrick. What is modalism? God appears in three different forms: ice, water, vapor, kind of thing. Yeah, sometimes he comes as father, sometimes as son, sometimes as a holy spirit.
So, this is the analogy we would use: like, I'm a son, but I'm also a father, but I'm also a friend. Yeah. Yeah. I I had somebody say that to me recently. Really?
And I was like. No, no, no, but God is still God the Father. Yeah, yeah.
Sometimes, like, but he died on the cross as a son. Like, where's a rock so I can stone you? No, just push him. Tied up. Just a good shove.
Yeah. Sometimes it was called Sabellianism, and sometimes it was called monarchianism. These are just categories that were, these are just, you know, names that were given based on some of the people who espoused this or some of the movements that broke away from our core Orthodox doctrine of the faith. I don't know if this is like a Trinity argument specifically, but what about people who talk about like God created Jesus? Like Jesus was a, because he was begotten, therefore he must have been created.
That's Arianism, Patrick. That's Arianism, Patrick. God the Father created God the Son at one point.
So there was at some point Jesus didn't exist. Right. And there are scholars, patristic scholars. Who will go back and forth over Arianism? Was it really this?
What is it? I'm not going to get into that in this particular debate. Discussion. God the Son is like the Father or similar in nature to the Father, but He does not have the same nature as the Father.
So, is this saying that God created Jesus? Is this the moment of? Like Jesus' conception, or is this prior to that? Prior to that.
Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so God.
So he is not original. Right. But then there are variations where it was like. when Jesus was born or something, he was created. That can also be one of those heresies.
Would would these same people man we're running out of time. This is where the conversation really would these same people say that because of that Jesus is lesser than? Oh, definitely. Because he's created. Yeah.
Yeah. So God is God. God the Father is God. And then Jesus is a created being. That's right.
Okay. So. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that. Oh, yeah. Jesus is a creator, and that's why Jehovah's Witness does not line up with biblical Christianity, it is not part of Orthodox Christianity, never has been, it's a heresy.
Yep. It's a heresy.
So if you tell a Jehovah's Witness in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God, they'd be like, nah. No, we were screaming. Nope. Also, by the way, if I can back up for a moment to the modalism view, oneness Pentecostalism is modalism. Really?
Yes, that's what they believe. You know, years ago, we had this group, Phillips, Craig, and Dean. I remember, yeah. I'm a phenomenal smoke. I love their song.
The favorite song of all, you know, the song of the Redeemed. I was like, oh, that's such a good. Then come to find out. They're modalists. And I was like.
What? Yeah, oneness Pentecostals are modalists. They're not in line with historic biblical Christianity. And they're not the only well-known Christian names that have that. Yes, and I don't mind saying that.
T.D. Jakes is a oneness Pentecostal. Yeah. So that's in modalism. It means God is, he believes that God is the father sometimes.
He's the son sometimes. Right. Right. And the Holy Spirit sometimes. Gotcha.
And that is not historic biblical Christianity. That's a heresy. That's right. And. It has consequences.
We'll talk about that in the shows ahead. That's right. Amen. And that's our desire to provide a clearer view for you on who God is and why that matters for your day-to-day life. It's not just about turning on a podcast and be like, huh, that was a really good point.
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