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Now let's jump in. We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. But where are they? Are they in heaven? Are they here on earth?
Are they somewhere else? Today's conversation is going to help us understand that on the Clear View Today Show. You're listening to Clear View Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.
I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr.
Shah, welcome to the show. Man, I'm excited to continue this conversation on God being eternal. That's right. It's a deep subject. It is a deep subject.
And we want to include you in that conversation.
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You just probably are not very fun, in which case, this is probably not the show for you. No, I'm just kidding. Keep listening. Keep listening because we're talking about the eternality of God or the timelessness of God. And that, as time-bound beings, that is something that is profoundly difficult for us to understand.
That's right. Yeah, God is timeless. God is eternal, which means God is eternal. God has no beginning, no end, or succession of moments in his own being. He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time.
And so it is a deep subject, but it has a lot of relevance. In the previous couple of episodes, we talked about the Christ time. Ann Jarvis has written a great book on this subject, Paul and Time. And in this work, she helps us understand. That yes.
We are living in We are time-bound creatures. God is not timeless, but he is in a different time. And Time to time, he allows us to enter into that realm. and see life from his perspective. Especially when things get difficult, especially when things seem hopeless or you feel like you don't know which way to go.
He allows you to step into that realm in which there is a time, but it is the Christ time. And you see, you see, there, you see Abraham over there. You know, Abraham. Being called from the Ur of the Chaldeans to go to a place he'd never been before, and he trusts God and he steps out. There you see David.
David is this man after God's own heart. He is this young lad who is.
Now going to fight Goliath, and then he's being chased around by King Saul. There you see the prophets. There you see Jesus. There, you see Paul in a Roman prison, and you see. That if God is a God of hope, then he is also a god of hope for our future, and our present.
Yes, this is a deep subject, but I don't think this is an abstract subject. Yeah. This is one of my favorite things we've ever discussed on the podcast and also that you've preached from the pulpit because it's such a fascinating, I mean, this is like physics on a different level. This is philosophy kind of taken to the extreme because it's much more than just you imagine that these events are unfolding in front of you, like your sanctified imagination remember thinking about David or thinking about Abraham. No, it's there is a different time that God is allowing you at various points to step into.
Yeah, so if that sounds like science fiction to you as a listener, number one, I would say you need to download the podcast and go back and listen to yesterday's episode because we really went into detail. But Dr. Shaw, someone's listening on the radio and they're like, this really sounds like Star Trek. Like I'm going to step into another realm and I will see Abraham, see David. What are you talking about?
Will you give just the listeners maybe just like a two, three-minute recap of yesterday's episode? What do you mean by that? Yeah, absolutely.
Well, one thing I would encourage them to do is also go back and listen to our Romans series. You know, we in our series of the book of Romans, right here at Clearview Church, preached through the book of Romans. And I looked at this book. from a different perspective. Yes, justification is the cardinal doctrine.
We are saved by grace through faith, is at the heart of the book of Romans. But then there's also some other ways to look at it secondarily. And one of the ways to look at it is entering into the Christ time where Paul talks about. you know this this other realm And how God is working, and how He's bringing all things to a close. And so I encourage people to do that.
But if you read How Paul describes time. If you read that carefully in the New Testament, you will see. That at times he is entering into a different world. And he's looking at God's interaction with His people as if it's it's happening right before his eyes. This is especially true with regards to Israel.
You know, it is in vogue to say that Jewish people are no special. That God's promises to Israel have been nullified because they rejected the Messiah, so now none of that matters. But if you read Romans 9, 10, 11, The way he describes the promises and how the promise was made to Abraham. It's not as if it was made back then and it's been abrogated since then, so none of those apply. No, he's talking about those promises as if they were just made.
That's right. And no amount of happenings in our realm Can nullify those promises. This is me asking, but I think also from the perspective of the listener, the book that you mentioned by Ann Jarvis that she wrote about Paul and Time, is it entry-level or is it like a scholarly book? Is it something? It is that's a great question.
I think it can be understood. And I believe. There may be a learning curve, but that's okay. Why read only books that you can aim into? Yeah.
Why not read some books that may challenge you? That's a great point. Do some digging in and trying to understand where this person is coming from.
Now, again, I would say I don't agree with every single conclusion that she draws. But overall it opens a new way. A fresh way to look at Paul's writings. And I don't think it's contrary to what Paul was saying. I mean, the way he describes The promises made to Abraham?
Man, you have to step into the Christ time. And you see that those promises have not been deleted. Could you speak to the person who's maybe a literalist, maybe is having a hard time understanding this? Metaphorical, what Paul is seeing, or is Paul getting a supernatural vision from God that I should expect in my life? Can you speak to that person who's like, I want to genuinely understand what you're saying?
Yeah, that's a good point. How exactly does this work mechanically? Like, do my eyes see a hallucination? Or do I just gain another level of understanding of who God is?
Well, it's a walk of faith. Right, it's all by fate. Hebrews chapter 11.
Okay, when that writer of Hebrews, some people say Paul, I lean in that direction. I think it's Paul writing the book of Hebrews. But even if he didn't, I think it still works. What is the Hall of Faith all about? It's It's inviting us to step into That other realm and see by faith, Abraham, by faith, Jacob, by faith, Samson.
By faith, all these heroes of history, look at what they did. And then. What does Hebrews chapter twelve verse one begin with? Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, surrounded present tense. Yes, are surrounded.
Yeah, this is not so you can say, Well, that's metaphorical. Are you sure? We're surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. Let us therefore run the race set before us. Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, means as you are running.
In this life the Remember that you are also surrounded by these cloud of witnesses. Oh, you mean like they're all up there cheering? No, they're all up there doing what Hebrews 11 just told us. There is Abraham. willing to sacrifice his son.
There is Moses willing to give up the passing pleasures of sin in Egypt. In esteeming the reproach of Christ, greater riches than all the treasure in Egypt. There is Moses saying no. To all the wealth and the pyramids and the tomb that he was building for, he's saying no to that. Can you see that?
So as you're running the race? Look at them. And look at them and look at them and look at them. And you are also in a race, and you have a choice to make. And you can make a choice based on your emotions, based on how you're feeling, based on the thoughts that are invading your mind.
Or you can make a choice based on I get it, brother, I got it, I got it, I got it. And I'm looking at Jesus, who also. right you're entering into that Christ time who also what did he do Who for the joy that was said before him, Endured the cross. Enter into the time where you're standing by the foot of Calvary, and there you see Jesus. Enduring the cross, despising the shame.
And now he is seeing him. Walking up and sitting at the right hand of the Father. And we're saying these aren't like, imagine this is happening. This is actively like over here, this is happening, over here, this is happening. Like running race hunting, wild happening.
Yeah, of course, they have happened 2,000 years ago, or 3,000, or 4,000, depends on which biblical character we're referring to. If it's Moses, then we're going back. 1600 BC. Yeah. If you're talking about or fifteen hundred BC, if you're talking about Abraham, then you're going back to like twenty one hundred BC.
Yeah, we're not talking about like time travel. Right, we're not time traveling. But when you enter into that faith realm, as Hebrews talks about, And as Romans talks about, and many other passages in the Bible, you're not called to just flip over the pages of history. You call to live as if Those witnesses are Are you telling you, see, I've done this. You know, among those cloud of witnesses, I also see my dad.
As he is saying as he is standing out in in his room that night. when his own father said when his father said to him that if you want to stay in this home, You'll have to renounce all this Christian stuff. and go back to being a Muslim or Just be at home. Just don't don't become this this crazy person. And if you stay here.
And tomorrow morning, you're still believing like you believe about Jesus being the Lord and God and all that stuff, then it will not be good for you. Translated We may take you out. And my dad stepping out, into the night. With nothing but the clothes on his back, maybe a few things in a s small little tin box. and walking out into the unknown, not knowing where he is going to go.
He's also one of those witnesses for me. What does that mean for you, Dr. Sean, to look out and see, you know, kind of the forefathers, the heroes of our faith, Abraham and David, and these big names in the Bible, but also your dad? What does that do for you to look out in the eyes of faith, see his story? And so, also for the listener who's listening to this as well, who's starting to come around and say, I think I see what you're saying.
You know, what does that do for us? Oh, it does a lot for me. People think that just because I'm a pastor or I have a PhD or I'm a scholar and all that, they think I don't have any struggles. Or they think like all those have been kind of sort of neutralized. For me.
That's not true. I have my good days and I have my bad days. I have my days of doubt. I have my days of frustration. I have my days of wondering God is it worth it?
I have the days when the thoughts in my head get cluttered. Or negative? Or or seem to overwhelm me? But what do I do in those moments? Entering into the Christ time, allows me to see that Abraham had those thoughts.
And Moses struggled, Imagine 40 years sitting in the backside of the desert wondering, did I make a mistake? Why? Why am I here? You know? God had to give him forty years to finally allow him to to sort of work those things out, but also prepare his people.
in Egypt to be ready to leave.
So It helps me. not only to know that others have faced this, And yet they remained single-focused. Yet they did not go with their emotions, yet they did not go with what makes me feel happy or not happy. I may be unhappy to day, to morrow, Oh, it's a great world. Wonderful.
Well, wait, shucks, I made a decision back here. Imagine, I mean, y'all know what I'm talking about. We had a great phone call today. Yeah. I mean, what if I had made a decision the day before?
Or yesterday. Or this morning. That was a horrible decision. Then that phone call came.
Now what would I do? Yeah. Or, or God in his sovereignty already knows what's going to happen next. He's going to be: if you're going to make that decision, You don't need this. Go ahead.
Go your way.
So allowing me to enter that realm not only gives me faith, hope, and confidence, but also calls on me to run the race. with diligence, with perseverance. And not allow the ups and downs and the emotions to take over the lure of the world, the lure of the senses. It allows me to look at all of them and go. I see Ruth and Moor Bidas.
I was standing there with Naomi. And saying, no, your people will be my people. Your God will be my God. Where you go, I'll go. Man.
If a Moor bite woman can do that. Me knowing all this. Why shouldn't I follow God? Yeah. You know?
So, and look at what happened to Ruth. She became what the great Grandmother of David, yeah. Imagine being grafted into the family tree of Jesus.
So, talking to somebody who's listening or watching right now. You are in that moment, you're wondering: are my feelings right, or are my thoughts right, or am I this, or am I happy, or am I all that? Most of God's people have struggled with The same same thoughts. I think hearing that in and of itself is a huge A sigh of relief to a lot of people knowing that you're not alone in those doubts and those struggles and those kind of mental. Sessions where you have to sort through your thoughts, knowing that God's people have done this throughout history, throughout the Bible.
I mean, the names that you have colored on coloring sheets in Sunday school, they did this. Yeah, I think about my own dad. Imagine having a good family, a happy family, a rich family, a successful family, a family where if you are in that family, you've got it made. You've got nothing to worry about. other than just go live and make more money.
Yeah. Everything is handed down to you. and yet to walk away from all of that How often would you and I would have been tempted, when you are struggling to go You know what? Enough is enough. Let me just go back home and be like, you know what?
I'm not going to be a Muslim, but I'm just going to just stay here. And just live life. And they would have welcomed him. They were okay, that's fine.
Son, sort it out. And it's okay. Yeah. Welcome home. But he stayed the course.
If he had not stayed the course, I would I wouldn't be here today. You know, there's a lot of people out there who have the, even people who are explicitly not Christians, who are not believers. But they've grown up with this idea, maybe it's through Disney movies or like just just cultural whatever, where my ancestors are somewhere. Maybe it's not heaven with Yahweh, but my ancestors are somewhere and they're able to watch me. They're able to see what I'm doing here on the earth.
Doctor Shah, is this Christ time? I mean, the the name implies it, but People think that it's possible that that can happen apart from God and apart from Jesus Christ. And can you tell us why that's wrong?
Well, Satan will always give you a counterfeit.
So, all these things that we're seeing in the world about ancestors watching, you know, sometimes Disney movies have all these ancestors calling on you, you know, like Mulan kind of thing. That's the one I'm thinking about. Yeah, I mean, Satan always gives you a counterfeit. There's a counterfeit trinity, there's a counterfeit scriptures everywhere, there's counterfeit prayer everywhere.
So it also counterfeit time. And and unfortunately, we as believers are just coming up Yes, there is a true way to enter into that realm where you see God's people not as distant past, but as people who lived their faith and they are cheering us on. And and so In the 21st century, we're finally figuring this out.
So for that person. Don't don't look to the counterfeit. Because if you do not know Jesus Christ, you cannot enter into God's time. That's right. So, whatever all this my ancestors are calling me, or my ancestors, this, or so-and-so passed away, and now they are my angel up there.
If you do not know Jesus Christ. None of that is true. You have no access to that realm. No access at all. Yeah.
None. Yeah. What if you are saved? And your ancestors or your predecessors were not believers.
Well, to be honest with you, When I In my prayer time. or my devotional time, when I think about that Christ time of Abraham and Isaac or the the Hebrew Hall of Faith and how man, these are my prayer I don't sit back and say, I wonder what my great grandfather is doing. If anything, it's sadness. It's like, well. They didn't receive Christ, but they have a choice.
They had a choice. They rejected the gospel. I'm not interested in what my fifth generation past grandfather must be writing. No, it doesn't appeal to me. Yeah.
If they did not know Jesus Christ, which I'm pretty sure they didn't, they're in hell. But other than that, Other than that sadness. That's not what I'm looking for. As a believer, you look for Your own family, which is your spiritual family. Yeah.
I suspect that the vast majority of people who are listening to this episode right now are saved people who have no concept of. this idea. This, to me, I mean, I know you said that people like Ann Jarvis and others have written on this, but this seems like something that is not often preached from pulpits. It's not often talked about on talk radio. I could be completely wrong on that, but I suspect that.
People are saved. But they're like, this is new to me. On board with everything you're saying, I want to understand it better. Dr. Shuck, can you tell us a little bit about How you came to this conclusion through reading?
Was it just this book specifically? Was it just studying Romans? Was it a combination of the two? And Did you feel like you had that like light bulb moment? Did this open up something new for you?
Something I always knew. Uh-huh. And I experienced in the sense of by faith. to see, man, these are the cloud of witnesses. And they are in real time for uh they're they are in that other time inviting me to to run the race set before us.
Not some distant old you know dusty Past But they're there. Calling us to run, calling us to endure, calling us to keep Christ at the center. Uh I've always known that, but studying the book of Romans, see, I preached to Romans a couple of times. In the recent series that I did in twenty twenty five. I I I made up my mind that I'm going to explore those those aspects that previously I simply sorta just scratched the surface.
And Paul and Time I knew about that concept. But I didn't have time to delve into it. But I said, this is the time I'm going to do that.
So I bought that book and I began to read through. And I was like, man, this is amazing. And of course, Professor Ann Jarvis goes in different directions in there. In some places I agree, some I don't. And that's okay.
But overall, it helped solidify. that what I was reading in the scriptures was actually academically verifiable. and that the text was saying what I thought it was saying, and then reading her work allowed me to go, Okay, I was not going in the wrong direction. And and it's been to me, it's been Life-changing. I don't constantly live in another world like Like meditating, whoa, like you're floating in midair, kind of hallucinating.
You know, I'm not doing that. Yeah, right. It's not a mystical kind of thing like that. Eyes closed and transcendental, yeah. No, none of that.
But we walk in the hall of faith. And in those moments of struggle and persecution, we realize that we're not alone. Others have gone through it. Yes, in our time they went through it. Thousands of years ago.
But in the Christ's time, it is as if it just happened. Maybe that's a good way to describe it to people. I think that's that, to me, that sounds like the clearest. That sounds like the clearest explanation of what is that spiritually speaking, you're walking down the hall of faith alongside these people who have walked before you. Yeah, it's thinking about it in terms of like, we said before we exist in a realm that is a succession of moments.
Like we have this moment, and then there'll be the next moment, and then the next moment. But what if that's not the only realm? What if there is another realm where those moments. Are you know mirroring one another where they're scattered amongst each other and we can see backwards and forwards and around to other fathers and mothers of the faith who have gone before us and we can see their encouragement and they can see forward and see us their faith realized in a church that's living out the gospel that they're looking forward at. I mean, this whole thing, once you really start digging into it, it really does unlock scripture and make it make much more sense.
Yeah. I mean, think about what Jesus said. You know, some of the religious leaders came against Jesus and they wanted to kill him because he was not. to them worthy of being the Messiah. And they talked about our father Abraham.
What did Jesus say to them? Before Abraham was, I am. I am. And then he says something else. What does he say?
Something about he lived to see my day. He saw my day and he rejoiced. What do you mean, Abraham saw my day? Prophetically? Yeah.
But also, God allowed him to step into that time where he saw the day of. His his coming son. Who is really the Son of God? And he saw the day, and how did he react? He rejoiced.
He rejoiced. God allowed Abraham to get a glimpse of Jesus two thousand years later and he rejoiced. Nobody was there to see it, but Jesus saw it. And he reported that to the religious leaders. He said, You keep bringing up Abraham, but he saw my day and he rejoiced.
Yeah. Doctor Show, there's somebody driving down the road right now. There's someone in the gym. There's someone in the kitchen cooking. They're listening to this for the last twenty five minutes.
And you guys, maybe you're right about all this stuff, but I'm stressed about something else. I'm stressed about a big meeting, a big confrontation. I'm stressed about a conversation or some position, something that. I've got a face. How does this help me today?
Great, great question. We have to encourage ourselves. And David did that. He encouraged himself in the Lord, And how do you do that? It's like psyching yourself up, like beating your face up and splashing your water.
Come on. No, it's not like that. It's seeing that our God is not the God of the dead, He's the God of the living. Right?
So, when you read the scripture, the Bible is the Word of God. It doesn't become the Word of God when you read it, it's the Word of God. It is living and powerful. What does that mean, living and powerful? What does that mean?
Like it's like gets up and starts walking.
Well In a sense, it does. Because when you enter into those scriptures and begin to read them, you realize that these are not some old mythologies you're reading, these are actual people just like you. Who just lived. And when you enter the Christ time and you begin to read it from God's perspective. This is not just Job, some old man who knows who he was.
No, no, it was just yesterday he was. sitting on that ash heap. This is just day before that he was seeing his Redeemer standing on the earth. Yeah. These are people just like us, and there you see Abraham willing to sacrifice us, and there you see so.
As you're struggling, as you're going through a difficult time, just know. That all of this has been put in the scripture not just as some record of distant past. It's the word of God. It is to help you live as if. This is for right now.
right now. That's why in every generation People have read the scriptures. And and It has changed their lives. Why? Because it's a living and powerful.
Isn't that what Paul says? That's right. Yeah. But the word of God is living and powerful. Yeah.
Sharper than any two-edged sword. How is that? Because it does. Yeah. And it it will also convict you of sin because if there's sin in your life, And you're looking round and you see there's David about to do something really dumb.
And you think to yourself, man, I'm about to do something really dumb. I'm going to throw all this away for that moment's pleasure. No, I can't go that way. Because David just turns and looks at you and says, Don't do it. Don't do it.
Whatever you do. Don't do this. This is not worth it. Yeah. So don't let this book be some dead in a word on some dead pages.
Let it be the word of God, blessing and powerful. That's right. That's a fantastic image. That's right. Guys, make sure, like John said, if this was interesting to you, make sure you download the podcast app.
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