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Now let's start the show. I feel like my life is a runaway train. I've been going through suffering, going through trauma, and I've been calling out to God. But what do I do when he finally shows up? How would I even know it?
Looking to Job for answers right now on the Clear Radio. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis.
Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio. We are so thrilled that you're here with us for another great conversation this morning with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time, we want to let you know exactly who's talking to you. Dr.
Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to see you.
I'm Friday. Today's verse of the day is coming to us from Joni M. Joni sent us 1 Corinthians 10, verse 31. Therefore, whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. That's right.
Great verse from a great gal. Thank you so much, Johnny, for writing into the show. And thank you to everyone who's been sending their verses. You can send us your favorite verse at 252-582-5028. That line is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Dr. Shah, big week coming up. Yes, yes, absolutely. There's a lot going on in Nashville as people are setting up for the NRB, which is National Religious Broadcasters Convention. And we are going to be there.
That's right. Right. We've been walking through Job. What is it like when we suffer? What is it like when we go through trauma?
How do we reinvent or restructure all of our worldviews that get shattered by trauma? And now we're finally at the moment that everyone's been waiting for when God shows up in the book of Job. And it's not what we expect. That's right. You would expect God to come.
And sort of give an explanation for what happened to Job and how. Satan came in along with the other angels, and God bragged on Job. And then Satan qu doubted Job's integrity. Job only loves you, God, because of all the things you do for him, all the ways you bless him. Take them away, and he will curse you to your face.
And then at that moment you would think God would Say, no, no, no, can't do that. God gives him permission.
So maybe when God came to Job finally, God would have said, this is what happened, Job. I didn't do this, Satan did, but I did give him permission. God doesn't say that. Are you ever expected God to say, Job, you are a man of integrity? You maintained your integrity through it all as you were facing trauma after trauma after trauma.
You did not deny me, did not curse me.
Well done, good and faithful. Exactly. God doesn't say that either. In fact, when God shows up, it's like rapid-fire machine gun style questions. Just a barrage of questions coming at Joe.
Did you do this? Can you do this? Do you know this? Right. And makes you why would God do something like that?
And they're all related to. Creation. They're all connected to creation. And so scholars Have Have proposed their theories, but they have argued back and forth. And at the end of the day, many scholars say we have no idea why God would do something like that because it doesn't sound you know, helpful.
How can a man going through You know, not only losing his property, his servants, but his children died. He lost his health. And got accused by his friends. How can.
Someone in that shape be benefited by God saying, Hey look, look at the creation.
Now see how powerful I am. How is that going to benefit him? I almost imagine Job as he encounters that line of questioning from God after he's had all of these chapters with his worthless friends, just offering him bad advice after bad advice, wrong perspective after wrong perspective. And he gets to this point with God, and then it's just almost like he can't even get his bearings. He can't even orient himself as this rapid line of questioning is coming at him.
I always remember getting confused as to what is the lesson here. You know what I mean? Like, it seems like if you just take this at face value and you don't actually dig into the book of Job like we've been doing, the lesson you're going to get from this is do not question God because he's God. Like it's like, God, how could you let this happen? I wish I'd never been born.
And God is like, hey, where were you at? Are you God or am I God? Yeah.
So it's like, don't, with the implication being, don't question this again. Yeah.
But it's so much more to this book. And in recent years, with um like trauma theory or trauma therapy approach to the book. It may sound like, come on, we don't need to, you know, everybody's talking about trauma and being traumatized. Do we need to bring that to? to studying the Bible tude?
No. There are people who have done this very responsibly. And they still study the grammar, the linguistics, the historical, critical background, the theological background, the canonical context. They look at all of that, but they also put the lens of trauma. In studying the book of Job.
And when you do that, it opens up certain vistas that you did not know about. Previously. By simply studying, like a grammatical historical study of the book of Job or a theological canonical study of the book of Job. There there's certain things we're learning now. Because Joe went through extreme trauma.
In fact, not just one. But so many traumas. back to back, didn't even get it give him a chance to catch his breath.
So Once you look at it from that perspective, You begin to realize what is really happening when God comes. and throws all these questions at Job. How do you see it? Like when Job is, when Job is asking God all these questions and God. Answers in this manner.
What do you think Job is thinking? What do you think Job is learning from this? Because it's like not every day that you speak face to face with God, right? Like, that's a significant thing. And yet it ends up being this thing that's not at all what you expect.
Do you think he's on edge? Do you think he's just humbled in the presence? Like, how do you see the situation? I think he gets it. He exactly understands what I hope we're going to talk about in the show.
He gets it because at the end of it He confesses his sin before God. He repents. He kind of redirects, and he gets up and starts worshiping God, which means. We may have misunderstood Job, or we still don't know why. Having all these questions thrown at Job towards the end of the book is the great answer.
But Job definitely found the answer. Right. I think through your sermons and through us talking about it on the radio show, that's been the biggest takeaway for me: is that all of the times where I might have misunderstood or I might have been like, God, I don't understand what's happening. Job understands far more than we do. Job understands, he understood very well what was happening.
He might not have had all the specifics, and certainly he was still reeling from the trauma that he experienced. But he understood very well that God was God and he was in control.
So, if we're going to also understand why Job, at the end of all those questions from God, gets up. And repents and gets his heart back to God and starts worshiping God, we need to see this book from a different angle. Just like we talked about the trauma therapy angle. Michelle Keener, who did her PhD dissertation on the book of Job through trauma therapy. She makes a wonderful case, and I think over the years we're going to see more and more good come out of her study and people like her.
She's not the only one. There are others who have done it too. But she has really dedicated two books. One is her dissertation, and then the dissertation on a lay level for. the average person.
And What we need to understand is that What happens when trauma comes into someone's life or your life or my life. It challenges our schemas. What is a schema? A schema is a deeply held core belief. We have many schemas in life.
What happens when trauma comes. The schema is shattered.
Some schema is shattered.
So I've used this illustration before. Imagine the schemas like A big window. On the living room. Uh of your house. This is a window through which you look out and you see maybe a driveway or a road out there, or your yard, or your kids playing out there, or people pulling up.
I mean, this is how you see the world. You can see, oh, it's so sunny out there. Oh, it's raining. Oh, it's cloudy. Oh, so windy out there.
But this is how you see the world.
So, a schema can be compared to a big window in the living room of your house. What happens when trauma takes place. It's like someone picking up a brick or a rock and throwing it Through that window. Yeah, I actually heard a story about the house that we just bought where a deer actually did come through the window. There's like a big glass window that looks out onto the road, and a deer in the middle of the night came through the window and into that.
That would be terrifying. Oh, yeah, that's talk about trauma. Wow, that's crazy. I pray that that never happens. Yeah, that would be very scary.
They may want to put some bushes or something.
Some little hedges. Go ahead. And so imagine that rock or that brick coming through the big window. And now you have glass shattered everywhere.
Now your view of the world is distorted. Of course, your daily life has just been turned upside down, but the view of the world is outside ish is distorted. But also, now you're exposed to the elements. And so It's not the same until you fix that window. What is happening in the book of Job.
is that Different people are trying to replace The window Of Job's life. And Even Job. And he can't. And they all are coming short until God comes. And he fixes the window, and it is the right fix and the right window, and Job is able to move on.
So we need to understand the book of Job through that lens. Looking at These Dialogues through the uh through through the schema breakdowns.
So, if you go to Job chapter 3, what do we find? In Job chapter 3, we find Job opened his mouth and he cursed the day of his birth. He's cursing. The day of his birth. In another way, you can say he's saying, I wish I wasn't even born.
I wish I could turn back time. Right. Keep turning it, keep turning it to the point where It's Creation Day, and I keep turning that Where God said, Let there be light. I wanted to say, let there be darkness again. Mm-hmm.
In fact, I want this entire creation to just go away.
Sort of an uncreation, a ceasing or reversal, I guess, really. Michelle Keener calls it his decreation plea. Yeah.
Like he's going against the order that he once believed, that God created, God sustains.
Now I'm going against that because I've seen quote unquote otherwise. Because he's hurting. Right. How can he stop this hurting?
Well, I can stop this hurting if I cease to exist. How can I cease to exist?
Well, if I keep turning back time. I can get to a place where time itself goes away because the creation goes away, and if creation goes away, then none of this has happened. I'm not existing. My children don't exist, so they don't die. There's peace.
Well, You don't exist, Joe. Yeah, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with completely de existing because the pain is too much because I cannot exi I cannot cannot live in a world where I have to wake up every day or if he's even sleeping and think about my children, my grandchildren. You know, lying in that cold, hard grave. Do you think there's some?
Haven't people gotten to that place where non-existence is preferable to the existence that I'm living? Do you think there's any like. Validity to this notion that Job is not talking about just simply ending his own life, right? Because that would be an option that he has, but he's saying, No, I want all of creation to go away. Like he's bringing God into this problem.
Yeah.
I mean, if you read Job chapter 3, it says right here: Job chapter 3, verse 3: May the day perish on which I was born, and the night in which it was said, a male child is conceived. Verse four May that day be darkness May God above not seek it. May that day be darkness. I mean, think about it. What did God say when He made Light, let there be light.
What Job is saying is, let there be darkness.
So he is He is decreating. Right? And then he goes on to say, May darkness and the shadow of death claim it. May a cloud settle on it. May the dark blackness of the day terrify it.
And as for that night, may darkness seize it. May it not rejoice among the days of the year. May it not come into the number of the months. Oh, may that night be barren. May no joyful shout come into it.
May those cursed who curse the day, those who are ready to arouse Leviathan. We're going to come back to that in another show. Why is Job bringing up Leviathan? Because Leviathan represents power and Chaos. Mm-hmm.
And He is saying Uh Those who curse the day Cursed who cursed those who are ready to arouse the Leviathan means they're people who would go into the waters. and try to Sort of Um Baked Leviathan, the dinosaur, to come out so they could kill it. And what did they do with it? I mean, I don't know. Maybe they used it for food or used it for whatever they were trying to make out of it.
I don't know. Tools. Yeah.
You know, because the shell on that, on the dinosaur, the way it's described in the book of Job. Is suited for those kind of things. Uh He he is Really decreating everything. Right? And then it says in verse eleven, Why did I not die at birth?
Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? Job chapter three, verse twenty, Why is light given to him who is in misery, and life to the bitter of soul, who long for death, but it does not come, and search it more than hidden treasures. Means if somebody wants to just go away, why does God let them live? You're right.
So This is a tough passage. And so Job's three friends are trying to get him, like trying to rebuild this window for him. Yeah, and the window repair unit. Yeah.
And the way they do that is kind of funny because they're telling him to look inside because he is the reason why he's going through suffering.
So the way I describe it is that they Offered to rebuild Job's window by putting a mirror on it. This big gaping hole just busted out windows, and they're like, I think I'll hang a mirror here. I need to be able to look out into my front yard, but now I'm just looking back at the moment. That's what you need. That's what you need.
You need to examine your heart. That's what the space needs to be. You're the source of this problem. And Job very wisely and discerningly says, No, y'all are miserable counselors. You know, I don't need a glass, a mirror.
on my window I need That this window fixed or to cease to exist. And then comes another guy at the end of a long series of dialogue cycles between Job and Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar. Then comes Elihu. He is a liar. You know, he begins so like, oh, I'm just young, and I waited my turn because I didn't want to, you know, be presumptuous.
But then he says, Hey, look, I have wisdom. I'm here for you to listen to me. The Spirit of God has made me and I'm here to help you, Job. Listen to my words. I am your spokesman.
I'm going to justify you. Wow. Is this just a pompous young seminary guy, or is this something a little more sinister? I think it's the Antichrist. Wow.
You know, there are many Antichrists. He's pretending to be Jesus. Wow. Because Jesus, of course, fully God, fully man. since eternity passed, but in time and place he was incarnated Through the Holy Spirit.
That's what. The angel Gabriel said to Mary, You'll be the power of the most high will overshadow you, and then you will be child through the Holy Spirit. Wow, he is saying, I. I'm the one. Right.
And Jesus came. To justify us by his death, right? Justification by grace through faith. That's what the ancients were waiting for, that's what now we look back to. And Ellie Hugh is saying.
I can do that. But you have to listen to me. You got to listen to me. I think this may be a discourse or a side conversation, but beware of people who come up and say, I have wisdom.
Well, here's the thing: I have wise counsel.
Now, prepare yourself to listen. If you don't enter it with this framework of mind, you will read Ella Hughes' words and think. That actually sounds pretty good. Like, seriously, when I was reading through Job as a devotional before we got to this discussion, I was like, okay, I know in my, I know that this is like not. This is not the framework that Job is going to end up taking.
But it sounds kind of good. Yeah.
It sounds godly. And so I guess it's easy for these false prophets, these false Christs to deceive people.
Well, I mean, that's what Satan did with Jesus. Mm-hmm. When he was tempting him in the wilderness for those 40 days, 40 nights, he was quoting the word of God. But then he was twisting it. That's what Elihi is doing.
He's quoting the word of God because a lot of things he says are, you know, if you look at intertextuality, there is a field where you're studying other scriptures. nearby to see How to study that book.
So there are people who have studied Job and then compared it to Psalms or Isaiah, and you find a lot of parallels. And I still believe the book of Job was written probably, or Job lived. Probably two, maybe nineteen hundred BC. That's what I think. when Job lived.
And so I think, but later writers, the psalmists and those you know, the Isaiah the prophet probably used Job in writing their books. That's intertextuality.
So Satan is using passages that sound very familiar. in other parts of the Bible. Because he knows how to twist the word of God. How do we recognize that if we come across false teachers, if the enemy's sending people into our life who are masquerading as people who want to help us, or people who want the best for us, or people who just want us to learn from their wisdom? How do we learn from that?
I would say the way to discern that is how much emphasis they place on themselves. What Elihu does is that he puts this big painting. Mm. The broken Living room window of Job's life. A Bob Ross original.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Look at this beautiful scenery you get to look at now. Isn't that nice? Yeah.
And he's in the painting. Yeah.
He crossed out Bob Ross's name and put a little E L in there. I am the one. Job has enough sense that Job doesn't even respond to Elihu. Elihu talks and talks and talks. Job doesn't respond to him.
He does respond to his friends, but not to Elihu. Wow. That's good. And even God, when he comes, the first thing God says is, Who is this who darkens counsel with words without knowledge? I don't think he's talking about Job because Job hasn't spoken.
Right. I think he's talking about Elihu. That's good. That's good. God comes up to put him in his place.
That statement has always, you know, you read that and you're like, man, it feels odd for God to speak to Job that way. And so when you explained that it was God speaking to Elihu, because he's the one that's talking, Job's not speaking. He's the one that's talking. I was like, Oh, that makes so much more sense that God would come in like guns blazing at this Antichrist, somebody who's claiming wisdom but presenting false, ungodly wisdom. And instead of dealing with Elihu, which God will deal He says now st stand like a man and I will question you.
He's talking to Job, I believe. And some people have argued that no, God said that to Job. I I'd beg to differ. And to me, the context leans towards or lends to first line Addressed to Ella Hugh, second line addressed to Job. I think so.
The prepare yourself like a man is to Job. I think it's so. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah.
Okay.
So, how does God. Question, Joe. What does that line of questioning look like? I mean, if you just read it right here, let's go to Job chapter 38 and verse 4. Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me if you have understanding. Who determines its measurements? Surely you know. or who stretched a line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened, or who laid its corner stone when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
God is referring to the creation episode.
Now keep in mind We need to read Job 37, 38, 39, whatever. In conjunction with Job chapter three, because in Job chapter three, Job is making his decreation plea. In Job 37, when God shows up, God is reaffirming the creation.
So is he chastising Job here? Do you think he's getting on to Job? I don't think it's as much getting on to him as God is saying to him, Job, I know you feel like. The world has completely lost all form of order and is in complete disarray. I'm here to tell you.
the foundations of this earth are completely fixed.
So, do you think that there's a tone of anger here or a tone of scolding or sympathy or something in between? I think it's more God is answering Job. I think it's more maybe sympathy, but it's more of meeting Job where he is. Job's world is completely out of order. It's chaotic.
I mean, wouldn't you? I mean,. Don't you think it is? Yeah, of course. Yeah, the world is like upside down and on fire at this point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so God is coming to bring order back into his chaos.
Okay.
And how does God do that? He tells him through all of these things. I mean, i and other things as well. He talks about what we know as cosmogony. Cosmogony is the discussion of the origin of the universe of the world Then God goes towards meteorology, Here you're talking about Um Tr uh let's see.
Inverse. Yeah.
Job 38:31. Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades? Pleiades is a constellation known as the Seven Sisters. It's about 444. Light years away.
Then God says, or lose the belt of Orion. In Hebrew is Kasiel, which is about thirteen hundred light years away. What is God doing? He's using cosmogony, meteorology, and then if you notice the third one here, can you hunt the prey for the lion or satisfy the appetite of the young lions? When they crouch in their dents or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait, who provides food for the raven?
So now God is also using the subject of zoology, cosmogony, meteorology, and zoology to tell him: hey, listen, your world may seem like it's completely gone bonkers. But creation? Meteorology? Zoology I can assure you, they're all doing fine. Yeah.
The world is fine. The world is fine. It is still right side up. Yeah.
Strong order. Order. Yeah.
I mean, isn't that what people need when they have gone through? Complete chaos, whether it's the death of a loved one or a loss of job or loss of health or breakdown of a marriage. You feel like I just don't even know where to begin.
So they stop doing the dishes, they stop making the beds, the lawn goes crazy, they don't pay their bills. Why are they doing that? Because right now, My world is upside down. I don't even know where to begin. Yeah.
It's all chaotic. No, it's not. Your particular situation to you is chaotic, right? But the world is still moving forward. Right.
And that can sometimes be frustrating to people. And so this is not the mirror hung over the broken window. This is not the painting hung over the broken window. This is God truly and genuinely repairing the broken window and helping Job to see that the creation is better than he thinks that it is. Right.
It's in complete control. God has not lost control of creation. And we're going to see in the next episode, hopefully, that the reason God brings up the dinosaur is to tell him that dinosaur. Is a chaotic being. Because all the description that is mentioned of the Leviathan or the Behemoth is like chaos.
Yeah.
Powerful chaos, not just little chaos. Powerful chaos. And God is saying, but I control it. How do you get from, and I know we're almost out of time, but how do you get someone who's listening to this, they're going through trauma, they're going through suffering, their world is complete chaos. But all I want is to feel better.
Right. I don't, they maybe they don't even know that they need order. They just want to this base animal need to feel better, and God is not providing that. How do you get them over that hump? What will help you?
And it has helped me because trust me, when I say I've been through trauma. Is knowing that God is in control. I'm not God, you're not God, the trauma is not God, the people are not God. God is God. Don't let anyone, anything, even yourself, sit on the throne that only belongs to God.
God is in control. The living, true, triune God is on the throne. of the heavens and the earth and he is perfectly in control. And he tried. is in charge.
I may not understand it. My little world may be completely messed up right now. But God is still completely in charge and I can trust him. I can trust him. And then, you know, through the whole dialogues, God even.
allowed Joke to see the mediator. Of course that's Jesus. The Redeemer who will stand at last on the earth. Again, that's Jesus. The new Adam, of course, that's again Jesus.
Amen. God even allowed Job to get a glimpse of all those. Uh images of Jesus, right.
So Jesus is completely Lord, let's say. Amen. Guys, make sure you join us next time, same time, same place. We're going to dig further into this topic of what's going on as we head toward the end of the book of Job. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible.
And if today was your first time listening to us, we're glad that you're here. We hope you join us next time as we continue the conversation. Don't forget that you can support us by subscribing to the show anywhere podcasting content can be found, and also by supporting us financially at Abadanshah.com/ford slash give. That's right. We got a big apologetics conference happening right here at Clearview Church, March 28th.
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