Many of us try to lead from the strength of our personality, but leadership is not something that you're born with. It's something you choose to learn. All this and more coming up right now in the Clear View Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadan Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Studio with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. If you're listening for the very first time today, Dr.
Shah is a PhD in New Testament textual criticism, professor at Carolina University, author, full-time pastor, and the host of today's show. Dr. Shah, welcome. It's good to be here. Good to see you.
Welcome. We've got a great conversation planned for today. I think it's going to be beneficial, not just to us, but to people who are listening, watching this podcast. It's going to be hugely helpful. That's right.
A lot of people in ministry, right? A lot of people who are maybe ministering a church, pastoring a church, on staff at a church. Dr. Shah, we're talking leadership. You know, a lot of us think that leadership is we pull parts of our personality, right?
Like I'm a funny guy, I'm a lighthearted guy.
So that's the type of leader I'm going to be. Or maybe I'm a very, very pragmatic. I plan everything out. And that's the type of leader I'll be. But leadership is not something that we pull out of our own personality, right?
And I think that's maybe a misconception that a lot of us might have. I would say you can definitely use your personality to help you in your leadership, but leadership at its core are certain principles, certain values, certain persona that you have to carry that helps the people behind you to follow you.
Okay.
So you can be a funny guy, you can be a very kind of a perfectionist guy, or you can be something else. All those things are fine. But There are certain things that are very common in all good leaders. And Stay as you are, but make sure those things are there. And so, hopefully, we can discuss some of those qualities.
Absolutely. Yeah. Leadership is something that is, I think, something that people aspire to. There's something that they strive toward, but they look in all the wrong places. It's going to be a book that we grab off of a shelf, or it's going to be a podcast that we tune into, or it's going to be a personality that we kind of model ourselves after.
But like you said, Dr. Shaw, leadership is something that every leader needs to strive toward. It's not like this sort of cookie cutter, or it's not like a one-size-fits-all thing. It's a concept that we need to strive toward. It's an ideal that we need to develop, these principles that are true for leaders across the board.
That's right. You know, no better place to go. Like you said, can I just get it from a book? No, there are great books out there. Don't misunderstand me.
There are a lot of good books out there on leadership. I have benefited from them. I have writers. and and speakers that I admire and I have learned from them. I have people in my life like my dad, Nicole's dad, and others that I have really admired and learned from them.
But there are certain things that stand out about all of them. And What better place to go than the Bible? Because you see those things exemplified, modeled by some of the greatest leaders who ever lived. You think about. Moses.
Joshua. David Nehemiah. I mean, yes, they were flawed leaders, but they were great leaders. Of course, Jesus, the leader of leaders. And then you have others like Peter and then Paul.
These are powerful leaders. And we can see that they were different personalities. And yet there were certain commonalities in all of them. If you were to bring all of these people into a room and say, Let's talk leadership. You may see different personalities coming through.
So there is Moses. Moses, man, he got trained at the University of the Sun in Egypt. There you have Joshua. His training was following Moses. There you have David.
You know, David, what was his training? You know, taking care of his father's sheep and killing the lion and the bear. I mean, that's his training. Nehemiah working as a cup bearer in Persia. different people.
And yet if they start talking about leadership, And you guess get past their initial Personality, you'll find out they'll talk about the same things about what makes a great leader. And then, of course, you can go to the New Testament and add Jesus and Peter and Paul into that category as well. Different, very different. Of course, Jesus is in a caliber by himself. But Same principles.
That's so interesting that those same principles sort of emerge out of those conversations. And the same is true, I would imagine, Dr. Shaw, with people that you talk to today, like leaders in business versus leaders in ministry versus leaders in academia. If you talk to them, Outside of their respective fields, those themes of leadership start to rise to the surface, those core principles of what leadership truly is. One of the things that stands out the most to me about leaders.
Who matters, leaders who made a difference, leaders, of course, in the Bible, but also in the world. is the fact that they knew that they had to lead. That's one thing that's that stands out about all of them. like Moses. At the burning bush he knew He had to do something.
And he was a reluctant leader. He's like, I don't want to go. Send someone else. I can't speak. I mean, he just kept saying, no, no, no, because he knew this is an incredible task.
Leaders know that the task is incredible. There's a choice. There's an adoption of that responsibility. There's also a recognition that this will not be easy.
So if you think, oh, it's leadership, I'm, yeah, I got it. More than likely, you are. hired in that position, And someone else Will carry you.
Now, you may be a valuable contributor in that process, but at the end of the day, you're going to get a good night's sleep. You're not going to worry about. How are we going to get this done?
So You know, when I think about leaders They all have that burden. Like Joshua, as he's standing on the east side of the Jordan River, he's like pacing back and forth. Like, oh my goodness, we got to cross over. And Jericho's walls are like going all the way into the heavens. I have these millions of Hebrews.
I don't know. And then, of course, the angel comes and says, I'm the angel. Who's come to take over? And, you know, remove your shoes because you stand on holy ground. I mean, it's like, oh.
Yeah. I mean, he knows, okay, thank you, God. This is what I was praying for. Right? David, when he sees his brothers being intimidated by Goliath, he knows.
If I don't do something here, we're at a stalemate. In fact, we're losing. Nehemiah Uh he's The cupbearer, which means like he's he is all set. He has a great position at a palace in Persia. Persia is in charge.
And by the way, Jewish people did not have a problem in Persia. They were thriving. And so when he hears the news about what's happening, he is burdened. It's like, if I don't do something. We're in trouble.
So One thing that leaders need to, if you want to be a leader, you need to realize that it's going to require more than just business as usual. Which means you have to invest in learning. You have to push yourself? Of course, as a believer, you have the Holy Spirit to help guide you. You cannot just coast into this.
Now you have to say, I am in the driver's seat. I gotta take a chance. I gotta think. I'm not just going to come in and do my thing and just go home. I got to think: what's happening today?
How is what I'm doing today going to make an impact years down the road? What is happening? How can I create? A new momentum How can I Fend off a problem that I can sense something is happening over there. To be naive, then you're not a leader, you're just sitting in the bus.
Yeah. But a leader has that spidey sense, you know, it's like sums up. What's going on? Is that something that can be developed? Absolutely.
Absolutely. You begin to pick up on things.
Now, in the early years, you know, you're like naïve. I was. But I could tell something is not right. And I would say 99% of the time I was right. I would even venture to say 100% of the times.
I was right. It's like something is right.
Something is not right there.
So that's another thing the leader begins to push himself or herself to start. Sensing. That's important.
So if you're just coasting Then you're not even a manager. I don't know what you are. And sometimes our seminaries are wonderful institutions that teach us to dig deep into the Word of God and get into the languages and theology and all apologetics. That's wonderful. But we don't teach our people.
To lead. Yeah. And As a pastor of the church, you are the pastor means shepherd. The sheep are looking to you. Right.
You cannot drive them. You have to lead them.
So you have to step out and go. Today. How am I going to lead? Where am I going to start a new momentum? Where am I going to fend off a problem?
Where am I going to help people today who follow me to know that there is a land flowing with milk and honey? That's where we're headed. What can we do? See, for someone like me, I would hear that, and I think I would misinterpret it to say like that last part. What can I do?
What can I, what's the next project? What's the next production? What's the next so-called action step to take it? And so it's like, okay, how do I put more onto myself to prove to myself that I'm a but I'm not leading anybody, you know what I mean? I'm not, I'm not, even if I'm making something or I'm doing more, I may not be.
I may not be inspiring or leading someone else who's like, okay, well, I guess he's just going to do some more stuff. How do you move from that part to where you're like, okay, what can I do to also inspire the people around me that I'm supposed to be leading? That's a great point.
Well, again, the last part of what I said: there's a vision to which you're. Moving towards. What is the vision? But it's a church. or a school or a business.
or a government institution. Wherever you are, you're leading in some capacity. You're somewhere there on that totem pole where you're leading. What is the better place that you're trying to get your people to get to? And you never arrive.
You know, leadership, if you arrive, then that means you've stopped being a leader. Right. If you get to the ranch, and get to the corral and bring all the cows home. then you're no longer leading The herd. You're done.
You're done. Go head to the bunk and sleep. You don't have to worry about that.
Somebody else is handling. No.
So you never arrive. You keep looking towards what is that ideal that you're going towards.
So for a church. Let's talk about church. What is the ideal that I'm leading our people, our staff? And our leadership and our church to move towards greater impact for the kingdom of God. How can we touch more lives with the gospel of Christ?
How can we get people to submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in their lives? How can we help people to get into the word? How can we help people? to worship God with their heart, soul, mind, and strength. How can we get them to share the gospel?
How can we get them to come and help those in need? Whether financially or or Coming with The words of comfort. Or going On mission Across the globe, how can I get people to live a life that is more fulfilling than just? doing things that will not matter.
So it's greater impact.
So how can how can I do that? I'm done with my Bible reading, my prayer time. You know, I take a few moments to just think about that. Am I moving forward today? Am I a little further ahead than I was yesterday?
and how I see the vision, and how we're reaching the vision. Or am I just going into work? Because if I'm just going into work, then Not only am I not leading, but I'm doing you a disservice. Yeah. So moving forward towards that vision.
Now, for me, I told you the vision is the greater impact for the gospel of Christ. If you want to be more specific, I would say. having a church become like an establishment in this community. For too long, churches are treated as Oh, yeah, that's just the church. Who cares?
I want a church to be so integral in the life Of this community, that they will have to say, no, no, we have, not that they're scared of Clearview, but they want to be part of it or they want Clearview to be part of what they're doing. Is that a concept that you arrived at? Through your experience? Did you learn that from someone, or did you pick that up somewhere of like sitting down intentionally each day and saying, but how am I moving the ball further forward today? How am I getting closer to my goal, to my vision, and bringing people along with me?
Yeah. Uh it's Watching people who are leaders, not just in church, but also in the business world. watching how they are not satisfied? They're not satisfied. And when I say not satisfied, I'm not saying that they are.
Greedy. I'm not saying, you know, the Bible talks about that, you know, being. Uh content. No, I'm content. I know if today I die, there's not a single thing that I have to go.
Yeah, I'm not ready for it. No, I'm ready to go. If that were to happen to me, I would not be for a moment like, oh man, I have so many regrets. No.
Knowing what I know. I have done my very best to live my life. for the glory of God. Yeah, there are a lot of things I would love to do, but if God called me home, I'm ready to go.
Okay.
But if God doesn't call me home, I am not satisfied. We want to do so much at Clearview. We want this church to be an establishment, some place that even after I'm gone, if Christ doesn't return, that people will look to this church and go, Now, that is a staple of our community. This is the place. This is the.
the the the thermostat of our community. Um how can I Make that happen. How can I Use Our church. to make a difference in the world. for the gospel how can we turn the tide against Christianity.
Knowing what we know, having what we have, are we impacting? World Evangelization Or are we going to be just like a little tiny drop in the bucket? And nobody even knew us. Or would we be Like a Martin Luther. Of course, Martin Luther, you know, head and shoulders above all of us.
Right, right. Could we not strive for that and say, man, with the gospel, we can. We can make such a difference that the world would be right side up, even if it's for a little while. Yeah. give a chance to our children, our grandchildren.
To live. and to serve Christ. Why is it that We keep hearing about countries turning against God and and and even in America, A state like Minneapolis. I mean, it's so sad to hear what's happening. What is it that clearly we can do that would?
make a difference in that in that state. I know we're far away from that. But Why are we doing what we're doing? Those are big questions. No, but I'm with you, though, and it's making me think too.
So now it's like I'm in that weird in-between where I'm like really thinking deeply, but also we gotta talk for the sake of the show. But what do you do? If you are listening to this. And you realize that I'm in ministry and I'm in love with what I do. I'm in love with this radio show.
I'm in love with. publishing books. I'm in love with recording albums. But maybe you're now confronting the fact that maybe that has been your goal all along. And those things are wonderful, and you are contributing to a very successful ministry, but that doesn't make you a leader.
What do you do when it's time to confront that and say, okay, maybe I've been wanting the right things for the wrong reasons? No, all those things are wonderful. I get to preach. Every Sunday, I get to dig deep into the Word of God. Those things satisfy me.
I didn't. Think that that would satisfy me when I was in high school and in college. I didn't think this would happen, but then God knew me better than I knew myself. And so, sitting down with those commentaries and getting into the Hebrew, right now we're in Job, so Hebrew, and studying theology and seeing critical issues on certain passages I never knew existed. And now I knew it's like, wow, that's amazing.
I didn't know that. And now, this is the application, this is how it changes.
So, all those things are very fulfilling. Seeing our church grow, more people come, lives change, that's very fulfilling. But Leadership. It requires us to think more than just I'm fulfilled. Leadership requires me to say How can I insure?
the future, the longevity of this church. How can I f ex uh if we don't keep growing? Then very quickly we're going to start shrinking. I mean, it's not profound, but that's what's going to happen.
So we have to keep growing. Keep expanding. Keep expanding our reach. Not gonna get out on a limb. but keep expanding, growing.
How are we doing that today? Are we doing things with excellence? Are we leading one another? to excellence. Sharpening one another in what we're doing, how we're doing things.
You know, all those things are part of leadership. Am I. Challenging you to be a better leader. And I know we did that today. Challenging you to, hey, lead.
You have people following you. Lead them. Don't just lead them, like shoot from the hip, lead them. Or you know, get so caught up in your work that you forget to lead people. Don't admire the pasture so much that you forget to lead the sheep.
You know, it's good. It's like, man, this pasture is so great. This, the gurgling stream is so beautiful. Oh, the sunshine. Ah, it's just so peaceful.
No, you got to lead those sheep. Don't forget to do that. Yeah. You know, that's also part of Leadership. That's what that's what, you know, I'm encouraging pastors and Community leaders.
business leaders to do. While you're enjoying your work, whatever that may be, don't forget to lead the people around you, especially if you're in a position of leadership. What are some signs that maybe we have forgotten to lead? You know, like, what are some signs that you would look for in a church or in like a budding ministry that says, hey, I can tell you guys are really enjoying what you do and you're doing it well, but. Here's some things that I see that make me think maybe we've gotten off track leadership twice.
Be very sensitive to where people are around you. Hmm. Me sensitive to know Wh where is everyone's heart right now? Because If anything, having been in ministry, now I have been in ministry for 28 years now. You have been 11 years.
That's a long time, by the way. I mean, that's, I'm just maybe a little over double you guys, but that far away, if you really think about it. Right. Um I have to think, are is are you growing? Are you maturing?
Are you. Seeing your role in the future in the growth of this institution. Not just exercising your gifts, and I'm not talking about spiritually, I think we're talking about gifts that is if you're an artist or if you're great with students or great with music, all that is great. But are you also leading the people who are in your circle of influence? Are you recognizing when someone's sheep is going astray?
Or one sheep has a broken bone, or one sheep has just collapsed. Recognizing that I gotta get them going. Are you recognising when the sheep are just drifting? You know, they're there, but they're drifting. What's gonna happen after a while?
They'll either get eaten up by a wolf. Horror they will move on to another pasture.
So Leadership is more than just. Hey, we're all, I'm enjoying myself. I love my job. People say that. I cannot afford to be naive.
You know, here's the thing. I don't know what what our leaders and our our our listeners and our viewers think about uh popping a child's hand when they go for an electrical socket. But if you keep popping their hand and you keep popping their hand, keep What's going to happen after a while? They'll know they'll associate that with the electrical side. Yeah, so they'll move away.
Mm-hmm. My hands have have been popped a few times. And so I recognize that, not just in that area, but other areas like taking credit or, Yeah. getting prideful or arrogant or or Whatever, and God has a way of popping our hands, but also with leadership. When you don't do certain things.
The hand gets popped. And you see the problem, you go. How did I miss that? How did I miss that? So Enough poppings, we start.
Learning. I know we're coming to this. This may be a part two. I don't know, because I've got a lot of questions. We've got four minutes left.
But how do you that exact question right there is a question I've asked many times because I could understand. The frustration if it's like, yep, I saw that problem and choose to not act. But I think that's the question, what you just said that a lot of people say, how did I miss it? Yeah, how do I see it? How did I see it preemptively?
How do I work to see it before it happens?
Well, you fail enough times, you know. You fail enough times, and that happens. And I hope. In your own personal circle of influence, whether it's with your fellow staff or the person ahead or the people behind. When you do it.
How badly do you feel the pain or how quickly do you move on? I struggle with it. when I have to deal with staff or people behind or our leadership. Yeah, people think I don't have leaders. Yes, I do.
Sometime back, we did an episode on accountability, and people said, Well, that's great, you're the leader. I was like, Yes and no. I am the leader. Yeah. because that's what is needed to help a church grow, the vision, the direction, all that stuff.
But then there's also accountability, financial accountability. There are leadership in our church that I do work with to help move forward. when I don't see them in unison. Or them hesitating. It's not like a bad person, you.
No, I have to go. What have I recently done or not done? That has chipped away or sort of diminished their enthusiasm to move forward. What is it? And and Lest somebody walk away thinking, man, it's all just you trying to do whatever you can to be a leader.
No, no, no, it's all the Spirit of God, it's all coming from the Word of God. It's all in the power of Of Christ, that we're able to do these things.
So, this is not self. That's right. But I ask myself that question, what am I doing or not doing? that has lowered their trust in me. I think that's more encouraging than anything else is that it's not in yourself, which means that you can learn it.
If it was just based on yourself, then I mean, what I'm bringing to the table is what I'm bringing to the table. I can't, I can't. Have extra parts of me. That's right. But if it's a skill I can hone, or if it's a principle that I can absorb and incorporate into who I am.
Then there's room to grow. That's right. Every week, I love John Maxwell. Every week I spend Tuesday, I listen to one of the podcasts where they have John Maxwell for the first 15 minutes or so, and he'll come and talk, and then others will speak. But I definitely listen because I want to make sure that my.
leadership Um knowledge is sharp. My antenna is sh is is picking up things. Whether it's about the vision or about where people are Or what's happening? In the competition, we're not in competition with other churches, but we have to look and go, okay, they're doing this. I think we can do this, or maybe we shouldn't worry about that.
Let's try this. But to be naive, No, that's not. Allowable. Yeah, that's a good point.
So much we can talk about. Yeah, I think we'll need another episode on this. But it's good to plumb the depths of leadership and to kind of parse those principles out and learn from a leader like you, Dr. Shah, learn us learning here on this couch. And those of you who are at home listening and watching, you learning as well.
Leadership is something that we can all strive toward. It's not something that you either have or you don't. It's a skill you can hone. And that's, I think, the most encouraging thing. That's right.
Guys, make sure you join us next time. Same time, same station. We're going to be diving into another great topic here on the Clearview Today show. Thanks again to our sponsors for making today's episode possible. If today was your first time listening to us, glad that you joined us.
That's right. We hope you absorb some of that leadership principles from the episode and go home and apply them in your context. And don't forget that you can always support us financially at Abadanshah.com forward slash give. That's right. NRB 2026, we are coming your way in Nashville, Tennessee from February 17th to February 20th.
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